budsci

> religion have to be private matter.

This can be so, but not necessarily. I've long been of the view that politics is just religion without God. From this perspective, the nations of South East Asia have adopted a different social model in which Buddhism serves as the social foundation, and government is a modern addition needed to cope with a world dominated by politics and money. The West has taken the other approach: government and money rule the roost, and the priests must ply their trade is deference to them.

> monks depend for food from society

I believe that this is a good and necessary thing up to a point. The early stages of any skill, trade or craft are basic, repetitive, and of little value to any except the practitioner. However, each practitioner should reach a stage where he or she can make useful, even valuable contributions to society. The carpenter can build durable furniture, the weaver can produce mats and rugs, the tailor fashionable clothes.

And the monk? Well, once they master a siddhi it can be placed at the service of those seeking the insights it yields. The diagnosis and remediation of an ailment or disease; the krma afflicting a child or loved one; the vagaries of wind and weather on which farming depends. All of these and more are susceptible of investigation and explanation by capably developed psychic faculties, often with far greater success than their modern scientific equivalents, as any competent dowser will attest.

Sadly, Buddhism everywhere has abandoned any attempt at developing the practical skills that were once expected of them, and on which their societies depended. Instead, the Buddhist countries are turning to Western substitutes, ignoring their own traditions, yet keeping up the practice of supporting a priesthood that, with increasingly few but valuable exceptions, is becoming puerile and parasitic.

A great pity.

Nope. Sorry. You're wrong!

> It's quite simple and hardly a secret.

Quite right. In fact it's boring, and undoubtedly well-known to everyone here, including myself.

Perhaps you could explain how it's relevant to the topic of this thread, the intelligent use of the siddhis?

And by what process of reasoning you deduced that I lack this freedom?

Or do you simply regard everyone who disagrees with you as your spiritual inferior, and therefore in desperate need of your very suburban sermonizing?

And I don't have that! ... ?

Hmmm! ... Let's see now ...

> lacks freedom

Ah! The Secret AT LAST!

For the sake - if not of my poor self, but of all other earnest seekers following this thread - would you PLEASE explain to us, in clear simple English, just what IS this "freedom" that is SURELY the salvation of the world.

If not of the entire Universe?

My exact words were:

> What remains is just the fantasy of pursuing "enlightenment" without any understanding of what it is: mere mental masturbation.

Perhaps a course in Basic English?

> he called his path the Middle way.

And so it is: that which lies midway between the others, and avoids their traps and extremes. Gita 4:21-22:

"Hoping for naught, his mind and self controlled, having abandoned all greed, performing action by the body alone, he doth not commit sin. Content with whatsoever he obtaineth without effort, free from the pairs of opposites, without envy, balanced in success and failure, though acting he is not bound."

> you're already on the wrong path.

I've explored many paths - right, wrong, firm and muddy. The Middle Path is NOT firm, straight and narrow, with clear road-signs and traffic lights. It has ever been difficult of discovery, even more so of following.

Except to The Enlightened, of course, of which you must SURELY be one!

> It is a constant reminder of the gullibility of human kind

Yep, we're gullible alright, but NOT your Enlightened Self, it seems. Two Enlightened Ones in a single thread! It's surely Blessed by Buddha Himself!

First the etymology: https://www.etymonline.com/word/Salvation

salvation (n.) c. 1200, originally in the Christian sense, "the saving of the soul," from Old French salvaciun and directly from Late (Church) Latin salvationem.

... then the meanings: http://www.finedictionary.com/salvation.html

1. (theology) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil
2. saving someone or something from harm or from an unpleasant situation "the salvation of his party was the president's major concern"
3. a means of preserving from harm or unpleasantness "tourism was their economic salvation","they turned to individualism as their salvation"
4. the state of being saved or preserved from harm

The fundamental difference between the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the (true) Oriental traditions is that the former are systems of social control, whereas the latter are techniques for self-realization.

The simplest way of clarifying this is to examine how Christianity was established by Constantine (a life-long devotee of the Sun God) via bishopric conclaves in the fourth century CE as a means of unifying his motley lot of subjects. Judaism was a system of control established by a potent group psychic entity - Those of Yahweh - over certain wandering Jewish tribes, and thereafter empowering them via clever financial innovations. Islam was a combination of these. Of greatest importance is that PERSONAL self-realization is anathema to all three. GOD (s.c. various psychic entities) is all-powerful and must be worshipped. Salvation can only be obtained by priestly intercession on ones behalf.

The idea that ANY individual can achieve salvation (however defined) by his or her own efforts and initiative is, to them, the vilest heresy. Even worse, it's the greatest threat to their financial survival. Burn them at the stake!

True Buddhism is a philosophy teaching examples and techniques of self-realization. Modern Buddhist religion is a pastiche of ideas, most of which have (very sadly) degenerated into "seeking the Buddha's blessing/assistance" and striving for "enlightenment" without any understanding of what it is or how to attain it.

> they up to something I miss.

Of course. Progress in psychic development occurs in stages - in "quantum jumps" to use a modern phrase. You must not expect daily progress. Instead, you must be prepared to devote continuous, determined effort over a considerable period during which little that is encouraging occurs. Even worse, negative developments are inevitable, because the increase in "inner psychic potential" pushes all of the "garbage" - the inner psychic impediments - to the surface. So it seems like you're going backwards.

Eventually the inner potential becomes strong enough to "burst through". The garbage is expelled and eliminated, a bright inner light appears, and a flood of personal satisfaction - bliss - floods the heart. The mind, like a clear pool settling after a storm, becomes transparent. Only a clear inner vision remains. This is often accompanied by physical changes: chronic discomforts and diseases seem to "cure themselves".

And this is where enhanced psychic perceptions and faculties appear. They become a "measuring stick" by which REAL progress can be gauged. Not just fantasies of "more enlightenment", but demonstrable capabilities.

Then the process starts over. A new round is entered. Another period of determined effort, "going backwards" again, but with renewed confidence and purpose.

But if no REAL progress is achieved, interest wanes. Boredom sets in. The truth of the matter cannot be admitted: too much loss of face, even shame. Instead, CLAIMS of progress must be asserted; and, being vain, visible proof of some sort is essential.

A new iPhone is most convincing. Perhaps a gold ring with a jewel just like on the Buddha's statue. Or a solid silver begging bowl to PROVE one's humility ...

> equating Enlightenment with mental masturbation

I did no such thing: in fact, I stated the opposite.

The siddhis are only dangerous when adopted as an end in themselves. If avoided completely, the "path" becomes delusional due to lack of proactical achievement. And saying that you can't tell others about it because it's TOP SECRET - strictly NEED TO KNOW - suggests that you've been watching too many "action movies".

Both the left-hand AND the right-hand path must be known and mastered for REAL, lasting achievement. Those who avoid that which they fear end up buying iPhones from Amazon.

That's not only interesting but confirms some of my worst suspicions.

For those not so acquainted, psychic faculties are otherwise known as "siddhis" in Sanskrit; don't know the equivalent Pali. A terse description of them can be found in the third chapter of Patanjali's "Yoga Sutras". They were regarded as the "ladder of achievement" for those pursuing, not merely "enlightenment", but the active application of the "illumination" so gained to real-world manifestations. At the same time, stern warnings were offered to all so engaged that success in such endeavours created temptations so powerful that few could resist them. This was the final stage of the Buddhas own enlightenment: standing at the threshold of multiple worlds of pleasure, mastery and self-indulgence; being fully aware of them, and what they offered; and choosing to pass them by without condemnation or curiosity. Few have such single-mindedness of purpose. Gita 2:41:

"The determinate Reason is but one-pointed, O Joy of the Kurus; many-branched and endless are the thoughts of the irresolute."

If modern Buddhist monks have abandoned development of the siddhis, then they have abandoned the core of their calling. What remains is just the fantasy of pursuing "enlightenment" without any understanding of what it is: mere mental masturbation.

Any Buddhist who fails to remember the Shakyamuni's final words before kneeling to pray for his "blessing" and assistance has failed to understand his teachings:

"Seek out YOUR OWN path to enlightenment with diligence."

> if such phenomenon did exist the proof would be out there

It is, and plenty of it. As just one example you could look at Professor Emerita Jessica Utts' page at the Parapsychological Association (an affiliated organization of the American Association for the Advancement of Science since 1969):

https://www.parapsych.org/users/jutts/profile.aspx

... and read her 1995 report "An assessment of the evidence for psychic functioning" which begins:

"Research on psychic functioning, conducted over a two decade period, is examined to determine whether or not the phenomenon has been scientifically established. A secondary question is whether or not it is useful for government purposes. The primary work examined in this report was government sponsored research conducted at Stanford Research Institute, later known as SRI International, and at Science Applications International Corporation, known as SAIC.

"Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established ...
  :

"It is recommended that future experiments focus on understanding how this phenomenon works, and on how to make it as useful as possible. There is little benefit to continuing experiments designed to offer proof, since there is little more to be offered to anyone who does not accept the current collection of data."

Download it here if you want:

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

But I'm sure this won't shake your belief in your girlfriend as an expert in the matter. For myself, I'll continue to follow the science.

The Vedic philosophy on which Buddhism is based provides a clear scientific framework for understanding and explaining psychic phenomena. It also describes exercizes capable of developing psychic faculties, along with cautions about their use.

Western society has always been conflicted about such things, and is especially so today. On one hand is the official view that denies and ridicules them, and on the other is the popular, widespread practice of "kitchen parlour" psychism: card reading, fortune-telling, spells and charms by New Age "witches" and so on.

And there is a lesser-known "third hand": decades and millions of dollars spent investigating them by secret services and a few university departments. There are well-documented claims of success, allegations of application to espionage (Remote Viewing), mind control (Remote Influencing) and other less-publicized techniques.

If any of this is true, those denying or ignoring psychic phenomena are ideal victims. Techniques for protection - both personal and social - would seem to be a wise precaution. Do Buddhists recognize and/or practise any of these things?

Thanks for the reply. That's a pity IMO. During his search for enlightenment, Siddhartha initially read widely in the available literature, and would undoubtedly have encountered the Gita. In spite of its brevity, and being hidden halfway through the massive MahaBharata, it is one of the oldest texts in existence, and predates Indian civilization: s.c. it's not originally Hindu, but was inherited from an earlier civilization.

As a warrior code, it also provides a counter to the more peaceable ideas which dominate Buddhism, resulting in passivity and lack of zeal in those so inclined.

I've always admired Buddhist philosophy as the product of one of the most unique men in history. The Buddha's birthright as a prince and regal heir, his rejection of it to seek greater truths, his long struggles with the human condition, and his final success in achieving what many had taught but none had achieved reveal the spiritual path as a reality, not just imaginative fantasy.

The oriental text that first caught my imagination was the Ramayana, followed by the MahaBharata and others; but the one I chose as my personal guide to spiritual insight and development was the BhagavadGita, and it has served me infallibly.

I'm interested in the status of the Gita in the philosophies and religions of South East Asia. I've read that, as one of the Vedas, it is not an accepted text. Is this true? How well-known is it? Does anyone else here value it as do I?

... All the economical factors are in favour for thailand to continue growth but a bunch of greedy speculators can realy rock the boat.

there is no way to stop this as if you put limitations on short-term capital inflows the speculators are going to go to the govermants and complain about thailands monitary policy and thailand does not want tpo upset the americans or the europeans. so at the end of the day a few greedy managers are basicly running the world.

... People don't realize the size and scope of these funds to change capital markets overnight and ruin a small countries economy as well, and you are correct that absolute greed is the only thing that motivates these people. It is truely unconsionable how governments both in the U.S. and Europe have been bought off and make no attempt to have any regulation or oversight on these hedge fund criminals. ... if something isn't done soon then I feel that the price to pay will be devestating.

if you have proof that this is actually happening, then, let us all see it.

As just one example, nick2k, try this:

"The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

This is David Rockefeller thanking "... The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years." In other words, for knowingly maintaining silence about their ongoing conspiracy.

otherwise, all this conspiracy stuff is old stuff, and the only thing it does is make foreigners more anti-american.

your conspiracy theories are making it so that win or lose, america will look like the one to blame.

jesus, can't someone in this world take the blame for something THEY did for once?

Perhaps it's time for the Americans to accept some responsiblility for the evil they have been perpetrating for decades; Vietnam, South America, now Iraq, the CIA's renditioning, etc, etc, etc. Given that Bush, Blair and Howard are all products of Western democracy, there is an urgent need for an immediate alternative.