tks

Hey Meemiathai--

Can you read? CAN YOU READ??? I already know you can barely write, I read your posts.

Reread my posts and the accusations by others against me and you will understand why I wrote what I did. I was questioned on my ability to understand a social issue. That is why I included just a very small bit of evidence to support my position. If you want more, I can provide that for you in PM so I don't bore everyone else here with my background.

And NO, I WAS NOT BURNED BY A THAI GIRL, NOT ONE TIME!!! DO YOU GET IT??? Read that again. I repeat....REREAD my posts. NOT BURNED!

I like living here too for reasons that I wrote about earlier, so either you cannot read or have a very poor memory.

I learned about Thai women before I came here the first time, and after living here, found that what I learned was true. Plus, I don't find Thai women attractive, so there is no reason for me to even look at them. (Sorry, I don't like dark skinned, slutty looking flat-nosed girls with bodies like little boys who dress like Britney Spears, I am allowed a preference right?) Now Korean and Chinese girls, there are some attractive CLASSY women! I'd even say Japanese women too. Thais wouldn't know class if it wagged in front of their face.

So, how's that for a discussion....go on...attack me some more. You realize this isn't even fair to you?

So...guys...don't fall for the dowry scam!!! (Back on topic!!!)

Candyflip--you said you don't compromise??? Wow, what a treat you must be to be with. It is your way or no way. Compromise, meaning both parties give to make it work, is the foundation of ANY relationship.

Not only do you want the money, you want it NOW!!! Gonna stomp your feet and break up with a guy if he doesn't buy you? Hmmm, you sound like you should be working in a certain area if I guy has to buy your love. (Yeah, I know, culture...hahaha)

You are a great example for these guys to see how Thai women think. Thank you for proving my point exactly. There you go guys.....her way or no way, she said it herself, she doesn't compromise!

Culture is the poorest and most overused excuse for everything here.

BTW, I understand Thai culture just fine, I just don't agree with most of it. Disagreement does NOT equal misunderstanding. Please don't second guess my ability in this area. I would put my eight years of university at top schools in the U.S. (psychology/psychiatry) against any Mickey Mouse school here.

Oh, hk, you are 100% right, a Thai woman takes care of her family before a husband everytime. He is second to everything, her parents, her drunken brothers, her dog, even her "buffalo." Don't forget he has no legal rights on or for anything here either.

Boy what a bargain that all sounds!!!

While this has all been fun, I see that this is a censored board, which I didn't know, so it seems that opinions are restricted to being P.C., a false road I will not walk down. A shame that truth, no matter how harshly presented, is restricted here. Truth meant to make others think and learn..........

Another typical indication of how Thailand is....keep up a good face no matter how shallow the inside is. (See, Candyflip, I understand Thailand very well!)

Save face...save face...save face! You guys still let that guide you, after thousands of years. You would think that that one foreigner who ran Thailand some time ago would have changed that (Thailand's dirty little secret, a white guy ran the country! I forgot his name, but it was around the time the name change to Thailand took place I believe, he wanted it to sound more like England). Not sure about the details on that one, my friend showed it to me in a history book.

Funny place!

Wow...my last post was yanked I see....a little bit of censorship going on? Someone told me this would happen, and it seems like it did.

I hope that I am wrong that my post didn't get yanked. But it is gone. Oh well.....

God people hate the truth.

Hey Candyflip..okay, how about this....your future husband agrees to pay a dowry, half of it after you are married five years, and the remaining half after ten years of marriage???

Would YOU (not asking about your family, you) yes, would you agree to that payment???

Please don't say your family won't go for it, that is not what I am asking.

This seems to be a fair compromise. You are both giving and taking, that is what we call fair, right?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Hey Candyflip--

I am glad you mentioned that a dowry is YOUR family tradition. And the guy has to 100% give up ALL of his family traditions. HE is allowed no traditions because he lives here. NONE??? The guy has to become a quasi Thai and get rid of everything he is and knows. IF that is the case, why don't you just marry a Thai guy then?

We know the answer to that! Thai guys for the most part don't have the resources foreign guys do, or theThai guys know the scams and won't fall for them like foreign guys will. You can't manipulate a Thai guy like a Westerner, that is why.

My point all along has been to compromise. Meet in the middle. For the guys who are so bent on paying for a wife (God save you), and no amount of sense can change your minds, I proposed earlier the following compromise:

1) Agree to a dowry amount the guy can afford. No selling retirement savings/investments as all. Do not sacrifice your future guys!

2) Set up a time frame of say, five years. If the two are still married after that time, pay half of the dowry then.

3) Pay the remaining 50% after say ten years.

If a girl truly loves you, she should have no problem with this because--

a) You respected her culture 100% (the only way Thais are happy) and agreed to pay a dowry.

She saves face right? You agreed to pay (Just not right now)

I will tell you why scamming Thais would never go for this.

1) They give up power over the guy, since now the guy still holds the money. She can't just boot you when a wealthier guy comes along and say "at least I got his money before I got rid of him." That power is gone.

2) She actually has to be faithful and contribute to the marriage. Wow...she has to WORK at it. Work, such a dirty word here. Remember to a Thai, a week is a lifetime, so try and explain five years in the future to them....IMPOSSIBLE!

3) Five years is plenty of time for you to find out the rest of the lies she and her family have been hiding over the last 6-24 months that you have probably known her. And believe me, lies will come out.

And yes, you cannot own land here. You can USE it, not own it. Build a house on it, and the minute she wants you out, her brothers and friends will throw your stuff out the door, and stand there, not letting you in, which I call a "Thai eviction notice." Cause some trouble over this, and she will call the police, and guess what your options are at that point my friend? Either walk away and lose everything or get arrested. Great choices huh? You are gone! No legal rights whatsoever...NONE!

Do not relinquish so much control to her and her family. You have no rights, nothing here. Why do guys do this??? No matter how much I jump up and down here some guys are sitting there saying "Not me, not my little darling, she wouldn't do it to me!"

Why wouldn't she? There are millions of guys pouring into Thailand every year, and a good percentage of them have more resources than you or I , and you could be replaced in a second (me included). I see these 40-60 year old guys (don't sweat it, I am in this age group too) with these 20-30 year old girls, thinking they are wonderful women. Ask yourself this....were you pulling down these little darling type of women in your home country??? No, I bet not. Don't get pissed at me for this....it is reality.

Westerners don't have the frame of mind to reference the sense of dishonesty that the "culture" breeds here. We are not used to it, we can't imagine someone could be like this, let alone an entire country.

That is why you do not pay a dowry, and if you do, put it on the 5 and 10 year plan. She will freak out about it.....and guess what, you have your answer to everything you need to know about her honesty and her intentions.

More shout outs to the PMs guys--thanks! That old corny saying "If I can just save one person, it will all be worth it!"

The best advice I have received from two people coincidentally within the same week about living here-- Avoid Thais when possible, except when they need something from you in business.

I will add to that, except when I need some Thai food!

I heard another one which is much more graphic "Thais are good for the two F's, food and f**king, and then get out, they are worthless. (He is more blunt than even me!)

Good luck.....this place has more landmines than Cambodia!

Stock answer to the tired and simplistic "Why are you here then?"

1) I am on a break from my career

2) Dig the food

3) Dig the weather

4) Dig the cheap cost of living

And I do like it here. I didn't come to find a girlfriend or wife. I never got burnt by a Thai girl, and I am not bitter, just honest and realistic.

Thanks for the kind words. I sometimes hate to be the bearer of the ugly truth, but I will not sway from that path. As for the land thing, I will bet anything that there is already a grand scam on how to get something from you on it. Either you build something on it and get the big "Thai eviction notice" (all her brothers and their friends stopping you from entering the house and booting you out) or something. Maybe not now, maybe not in a year, but rest assured no Thai family is going to give you land (not in your name anyway) for the reason of being nice or generous. No way!

Another one of the things I do to avoid landmines here is thnk ten steps down the road when dealing with a Thai if something sounds fishy. I bet you can predict a scam before you get to step ten (Generalization alert).

As for the guys who pay dowrys because they are not "that much." I am sure the guys here can think of a way to throw your money away....you know, cause it's not that much, right? I admire those who can throw money away like that!

Maybe I'm a tightwad, but I would never even think of giving a girl or her family money if they were the inlaws of Jesus himself or if they were on their deathbed. And no, I don't give my family money, they have JOBS and businesses and savings. Yes, they WORK for a living. Try to talk to your little tilac about HER working and SAVING money for her future. Yeah, right! If it isn't your money going into her account, it isn't happening.

Besides, before you came along, they were surviving right? Okay guys, hate this if you want, but many guys who come here have this "Knight in Shining Armor" fantasy where they think they are rescuing these girls. Yeah, right....again, they were fine before you came, and if your money stopped, they would be fine without you cause they would boot you and find some guy just like you to tap into his bank account.

If you are pouring money out to this girl and her family, you are special now. If your money stops, you are no longer special. Done and you are gone.

See, they equate you caring for them if "you care for me, you take care of me."

"You no give me money, you not take care of me...you no love me.....goodbye."

Sorry folks....generalizations, but so true.

Just say no!

Peace

Sorry about the long post, I wrote it between other emails.

Paying for a bride...buying a wife....selling your stocks??? GUYS.....this dowry thing is NOT a 100% thing in Thailand. A dowry is only asked for if they think they can scam it. If you say no, and she leaves you because of it, good! Better you learned now than later when it is too late.

If she loses face, she will get over it. Mai pen rai....right???!!! Is she or her family so fragile that they won't overcome it? Again, if so....run now.

You guys must have been here long enough to learn about Thai's that they will try all kinds of outrageous things, until confronted with a polite "no" then they back down instantly.

And don't get me started on Isaan! They are (generalization alert) the most deceitful, manipulative creatures on this planet. (My opinion) An 18 year Isaan girl can con a 50 year old business man from abroad out of his retirement savings in a few months!

Oh, and yes, I have seen it time and again. I just heard another great one from a guy who built a girl this palace of a house and soon after move in and a big old dowry, he came home one day to his belongings on the front yard, her brothers and their friends standing there...informing him that he no longer lived there, and they are no longer married. POOF....he is out of the picture, no legal standing or anything. No house, NOTHING! Bye bye Ms. Isaan. He got run out, and left Thailand with all his money gone!

Oh, I got more of them. How about the guy whose wife drained his bank account, gave it all to her brothers so they could gamble, get drunk and buy some whores. These are first hand, not rumors guys. It goes on and on!

Yes, I have the "upper" society stories too.

I should write a book!

If some father tells YOU when to withdraw money...run!!!! RUN, RUN, RUN!!!!

C'mon guys...keep your money!!!

Sorry, it pisses me off to see real good guys like all of you, with good intentions, get screwed time and time again. Like I wrote before, smile and just say no. Don't say anything else. You will stump them. I do it all the time.

Anyone who has any doubts about their situation please PM me. Thailand is all about avoiding "landmines" of one nature or another. My latest thing is teaching my friends how not to get shaken down for bribes at the border by Cambodian and Thai officials. These guys didn't even know they were paying bribes when they traveled.....I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Their 1,000 baht visa fees were 1,500 because of dishonest border officials. (Sidetracked there...SORRY)

Heads up guys.....Good luck!!!

Hello ######.....hope all is well....you mentioned that you are "expected" to pay. By who? Her family? Her?

Try this one out. Smile, and tell her no. Tell her family no.

Tell her where you come from only bad girls and bad families take money for a bride. See her reaction. If she is in it for love, and if her family truly cares about her, it will be an issue for about a day.

But, if she or her family throws a hisse fit and pouts, then rethink her true position on your relationship.

Just say no....no huge gymnastic explanation. Mai dai.......real simple.

I remember when I first moved to my recent apartment and the landlord tried to overcharge me for something and I calmly looked at him and said "No, I can't pay that." Then he said I had to leave the apartment, I was no good (because I wouldn't let him scam me, I was no good, his dishonesty had nothing to do with it) so again, I calmly smiled and said "No, I am not leaving." He looked at me...stunned....and walked away.

Same thing on a couple trips over the border when the guards tried to shake me down for a bribe.....calmly said no each time. They have no idea how to handle it.

Always smile, and just say that one magical word...No.

Please, oh God please, don't fall for the "I have it so why shouldn't I give it to them" mindset that they want us to fall for.... (Not saying you would, but I hear so many guys say it)

There is a BIG difference between SPENDING money and WASTING it. A dowry is a waste. Culture or no culture.....a waste.

Just say no.

(Guys, I am on your side, so don't think I am getting on you, I am not)

Hey hkthai--please reread my post. The "hiso and exec" women I spoke of were the ones laughing about a dowry. There are still a small amount of hiso's that ask for a dowry and yes, give it back, you are correct. That is really becoming or is the minority nowadays, according to the Thais I have spoken with over the years. Because of business relationships as well as personal, I interact with a rather elevated level in Thailand. (Believe me, that is nothing to boast about, it has nothing to do with me as a person, but what they think I can do for them in business, they would no doubt rather have a Thai do this for them if one could)

I repeat, I am not ragging on the guys here, I am on their side. If they want to pay for a bride, it is up to them, but it is not necessary to do so, especially for some uneducated, deceitful farm girl. The Thai culture raises these girls (farm girl and non-farm girl alike) to see a "walking ATM machine" when a white guy walks by.

When a 50 year old white guy hooks up with some 20 year old Isaan farm girl, this 20 year old already knows, through her "cultural" training, how to remove this guy's money from his pocket. This is an extreme example but applies in a general sense.

I take issue with it all falling under tha scam of the word "culture." Guys, you cannot, no matter how wonderful of a person you are, change the cultural programming these girls are bombarded with over the decades of their life (I know I can't and I have a long background in doing just such a thing).

Good, bad, or indifferent, that's how it is. Guys often come to me when they go through these scenarios (because of my background) and it turns my stomach to hear these stories. I hate having to tell the truth, but it all ends up the same (I wish it didn't). To be honest, I have seen ONE scenario/couple which has been legit, just one.

As for the Stickman reference, I quoted him just once, I never said he was God, but his on the nose commentary is very often correct. I appreciate someone who sees reality as it is, no matter how ugly. I take the same approach. The truth is ugly in this scenario, because guy's feelings and money are at stake. Peel away the layers of the onion and you get the truth.

To the guys who PMed me in support of these points...thanks!

Wait...I just fell out of my chair....let me catch my breath! Okay...I am finsihed laughing!

meemiathai--Thank you so much!!!! Your post...that was great, I applaud you!

You said most foreigners "can't adapt to the Thai culture."

Wait, just writing that made me crack up again! In the thousands of years this "culture" has been around, look at how far it has progressed! Still a third rate, third world country. But hey, at least there were no soi dogs around for APEC.

I will say I love Thai food though! And the next thing out of your mouth "So why are you here?" Go on, a simplistic response which I expect.

This place is what it is. Not that that in and of itself is bad, but let's not make it out like it is some advanced or civilized country. Nice weather, cheap housing. Low cost of living...

But, it's still a joke around the world with a reputation for one thing, which is why the all too honest P.M. is trying to change it so bad. You know, closing the bars early and that sort of thing.

I have to be fair, maybe in another 5,000 years Thailand will reduce the amount of sex workers from 2.8 MILLION to oh, I don't know, maybe 1.8 million.

This is getting fun. Tag, you're it!

Wow....I knew Iwoud get attacked for those comments!

Okay...next round!

Hey Meemiathai-- your questions:

>>>tks, did you marry a thai?<<< God no! And I wasn't burned by one either, so no, I am not bitter. (I am a rather happy person)

>>>Did you pay a dowry? See answer above.

>>>If not, what's your problem? <<< No problem, this is a discussion board, so I raised a point.

>>>If yes, did they point a gun to your head?<<< I would never marry a Thai girl. My choice, that's all. If you like them, great for you!

Is that the only reason guys come to Thailand, to find a wife? I did not come here for that. So, since I don't like Thai women, I have to leave now? If you want to support a girl, and her family, go for it! Does that allow you the option of crying about it if you willingly do it? Well, since you chose to do it, your cries may fall on deaf ears.

Look, I am on the guys side here...my biggest point of all of this is you guys should not have to bend over 100%, there should be some compromise. Why is that so bad? Because you are in Thailand? Don't let these families jerk you around by the nose. You think you can't find another 20ish skinny Thai girl to fall head over heels for? Man, there are millions of them here. What is the worst she can do? Break up with you? Oh gosh....you won't be able to replace her, in about, oh, five minutes!

I think it was Stickman who said guys do things here that they would never even think of back in their home country. Like common sense gets sucked out of a guy at Don Muang and never returns. Since guys are ###### bent on paying a dowry, here is another compromise. How about this, if she stays married to you faithfully for say, five years, or ten, you pay a small amount. But nothing till then. Say it is an English custom for her to prove her love to you!

Good luck guys

Hey Bronco,

I am not complaining for myself...I would never marry a Thai girl, it is just not my preference. Plus, I didn't come here to find a wife. So your shallow "if you don't like it you can leave" statement, while being simple minded, doesn't apply to me. I was simply making a point for discussion.

Additionally, I have "dated" Thai women, from Exec level to hiso, but never considered them for marriage. I can't say I know how the farm girl relationship thing works here. But, the girls I spoke with laughed when I brought the topic up for kicks. Their families would never ask for a dowry. One of the girls indicated how families only pull that scam if they can get away with it.

These are generalizations with exceptions, so please reframe from using exceptions to prove a rule. I am not ragging on you guys in particular, I just think it is foolish that you have to conform 100% without compromise. You support the lazy family, support the girl......man, it doesn't stop.

Ask yourself this....if back in England some English girl said give my family a ton of money, promise to support me and my lazy family for the rest of my life, THEN I will marry you...would you jump at that great offer?

I rest my case.......guys, don't be blind.

Let me ask this. Why do the foreigners have to change over to Thai culture 100% when they marry a Thai girl? Isn't marriage about compromise and meeting in the middle? Let me get this straight...you pay for the wedding, take care of the girl for the rest of her life, probably help support the family at one point or another AND you pay a dowry to the family? Boy, what a bargain!!!

There's no meeting in the middle on any of that, the foreigner gets screwed from start to finish! Does the groom have to become Thai overnight???

To say "it is Thai culture" is an excuse that is used for every type of scam done in this country. Because the Thais are raised (their culture now) that all white people have money to just waste away, they think they can screw them at any point in life and it is okay, again, cause it is "culture."

How about telling them that you will compromise...and pretend it is 2004. How about you marry her, and 'take care' of her, and there is no need for a dowry??? Now, you are meeting in the middle, and are doing something that is called "fair." I know, a wacky concept in Thai culture.

Guys...good luck, but is just seems like a big scam wrapped in the same old tired 'culture' excuse.

The food pyramid is an outdated food model.  Bread is not a bad food, but excess carb intake does lead to weight gain.  A balanced diet of protein, fruits, and veggies, split up in 4-6 smaller meals is a healthier food intake option.  To lose weight, one has to get their caloric intake, coupled with a proper fitness program, below the person's BMR (bas. metabolic rate).  

Would I include Subway in a fitness plan?  Well...none of the protein sources are completely natural or unprocessed from what I could see, so no.  Maybe, just maybe, the veggie only salad, no dressing, would be the only acceptable food there.  I would not recommend the sandwiches as a weight loss food no matter what obese person you used as a testimonial.  The tuna has mayo in it, low cal or not, still mayo.  The chicken is some processed sausage garb.  Any red meat I always recommend to avoid so it doesn't matter what it is you have for that.

But, Subway is not as bad as a Big Mac or french fries, so it is a good alternative to junk food, but certainly not a health food.  I guess it's most accurate to say it is somewhere in the middle.  Good for a "cheat day" once or twice a month at best.  

Oh, I do like Subway and have been to the Suk. and Silom ones.  But to tout it as health food is a stretch.  

So, Sunbelt, you have to tell us how the mystery chicken is made???  I had one recently and it was cut from some sausage like shape.  It is NOT sliced chicken breast, it is a processed sausage whatever.

Hi...my first reaction was also to say "how long have you been here" but I will be kind instead.

Here is how it works.

1)  You (foreigner) spend tons of money to build the place

2)  You "luck" out and figure out who to pay off and how much, which will be crazy money.  

3)  The Thais will help you get it open until your money is about dried up.  You think it is great they are so "helpful."

4)  Club opens...if it is even slightly successful...you get raided within about the first month, after you have spent the rest of your money on promotions (it's so they don't have to do it).

5)  You get forced out of ownership...done....you are gone, no money, no choice, no say so, nothing. Goodbye.  You no longer own a thing and receive nothing.

6)  The Thais (we don't need to say who) reopen it and make money hand over fist because they didn't spend a baht building the place, you did.

Sorry...but this is about how it would go.

Hey Sunny,

Previous advice about waiting just a bit isn't the worst thing to do.  My little two cents is...I tell people back home to not leave a good job or income to come here, at least not unless one has just a ton of money where income for years and years or decades is already saved.  The people who I know that did leave a good job/income to come here have regretted it.  Those who either came her between jobs or left bad jobs seemed to be happier.

These are huge generalization with *many* exceptions.  I know the pull of this place and the desire to come sooner than a little later is strong.  One guy in the same age range as yourself came a bit too early financially, met a girl he wants to marry, and now he has had to go back home three times so far to refresh the savings, this last time for 6 months.  He did have money in the bank beforehand as you do and a business income coming in as well.

Additionally, many things here seem to have risen in price so, at least it seems, that living here isn't as cheap as even 2-3 years ago (not talking nightlife/drinking stuff either, which isn't even worth it anymore IMHO).

If someone does have that big a bankroll, I would think there are other more foreigner friendly countries to go to with that kind of money.  Some of the anti-foreigner stuff coming from the government is hype, but when these new laws start coming down, it just doesn't look great for us.

Oh well, I know this is not what one wants to hear, but better to learn from others than go through it yourself I always say.  Someone passed on some great tips to me before I moved here so I am just passing it on for what it is worth.  

Don't mean to be a downer..so...Good luck either way!

If you are looking for an easy female hook up, this is the place.  You don't even have to leave the hotel, roam the lobby and nod to someone, or wait and hit the Angel disco at night.  Not the classiest place, but if you want the easiest play, this is the place.  The most effort you will ever have to exert is walking across the street (Soi 4) to the good old Nana Plaza.  

But please know there is not an ounce of class involved here, so it is what it is.  Not dogging it, just saying it is good at being sleazy, nothing wrong with that I guess.

I am new here, but someone brought up a good point.  How did Dr. Patpong get his screen name here?  A simple question, that's all.  I didn't see it answered....did I miss it or was it not answered?

Take care.