brownrabbit

6 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.   Fortunately most on TVF haven't had their eyes glued shut.   For abundant clarity, not going to bother addressing what I assume to be your intended points, or your non sensical analogy.  The way to address deaths is to close the industry.

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

5 hours ago, Mick501 said:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/06/global-wildlife-tourism-social-media-causes-animal-suffering/

 

 

hopefully National Geographic will meet with your discerning standards, but there are any number of similar articles from other sources.  

 

On on the subject of mahouts carrying a bull hook, do you really think the elephant would be scared of it if it had not been from learned experience?  If it were not used to repeatedly abuse them, they would see it as just another stick.

I've read that before and no - National Geographic is like saying its the BBC.  Don't question it.  I shall. I am more than happy to provide some actual readings and quotes from experts who work with elephants on the ground. 

 

What I will ask here is how would you urgently move an elephant that has been freaked out by a dog? As is the case of just one elephant I know.  So her safety and the safety of those around her is paramount here. Offer her some bananas and sweetly whisper in her ear to move her out of harm's way?

 

You evidently do not work with elephants.  Again it's quite simple - you can go the route of saying NO BULLHOOK and then you have deaths on your hands (though you probably think that is good as you imagine all mahouts are sick elephant abusers), or you can accept that if the urgent and essential need arises, a bullhook may be required to help ensure the safety of those nearby, the mahout, and indeed the elephant themselves. 

 

Going back to the police and gun analogy. Just because an officer may carry a gun for safety and protection, does not mean they use it.  Could someone use a bullhook cruelly? Yes.  Is the existence of this tool mahouts have carried for hundreds of years proof of abuse? No.  I've spent time with many mahouts who carry bullhooks.  ALL the mahouts at TECC carry bullhooks.  If they are abusing their elephants they have hidden the non-existent wounds pretty well - especially they are open to the public and host hundreds of visitors each day.  Likewise the mahouts I've spent time with in Chiang Mai province.  When you regard elephants as family, harming them is the last thing you would think about doing. 

 

Again, just because an officer carries a gun, does not mean all officers are trigger happy murderers.  Does that help?

 

Do not make this a black and white issue. It is evidently not.

 

So to put this back on you. What should a mahout use instead of a bullhook as a guide?  How would you move an elephant of the urgent need arose to ensure the safety of other elephants, animals, humans and yourself? How would you guide and move an elephant it the elephant's health and well-being depended on it? For example when needing medical care. 

 

Sugar cubes?  

 

Also, you are aware that many mahouts (including some very experienced) have lost their lives and NOT had a bullhook...mainly because of such harmful claims that bullhooks are solely tools of abuse and torture. Elephant Nature Park has seen at least two mahouts lose their lives and claims to operate a "no hooks, no chains" haven for elephants.  But again I guess those lived are dispensable. 

 

Boon Lot - a haven for Western elephant saviours who do not want to see mahouts with a bullhook also recently lost a very experienced mahout, guess what,  no bullhook.

 

Hope seeing how complex it is and how simplying such things can really be dangerous...indeed it literally can be a matter of life and death. 

54 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Might want to read up about elephant crushing.   When the elephant is young the bull hook, a 10-15cm curved metal spike, is pushed in to the flesh and the flesh is deliberately torn. This isin sensitive areas, or areas where they see their own blood.  Eventually the elephant is "crushed" and will comply from fear, just by seeing the hook.  

 

Comparing to police is a ridiculous analogy, unless you know of police who repeatedly shoot people to get them to behave.

Care to share the reading?  Not sensationalist animal rights pieces or blogposts from someone from the West who has spent a week "finding themselves" volunteering at an elephant sanctuary - but actual experts in captive elephant care describing how and why mahouts who love their elephants (and many regard as family) would see this as normal practice.  

34 minutes ago, chainarong said:

The video clips are not fake,  they showed us on the OZ news the little elephant baby being taken away and its mother crying and the baby crying, basically you never separate a mother and baby elephant, its a part of the pack , these morons people should be exposed about this cruelty and the full force of the law administered. 

I agree.  If this did happen then let's hope they are rightfully held to account.

 

But because it was on the Australian news does that mean it is not staged?  Which Australian news channel filmed it and did they name the location?  Or do you mean they merely showed the WAP released footage - that is doing the rounds on global mainstream media and social media?  The distinction needs to be made here.  I am not sure why the place has not been named yet.  Perhaps there is a reason but it seems a little odd to not go public and name and shame - especially when someone from the Thai government has made a request.  

 

In captive elephant training you DO need to separate mother and baby sadly - until the training is finished.  How long this takes (1, 2, maybe 3 months) depends.  Then the elephants can be returned to mother/aunt, family.  This separation happens usually when the elephant is 3-4 years old (so during those very early formative years they are always, rightfully, together).  Do not equate the pajaan (a traditional elephant blessing) and elephant training with being the same as recycled shock videos put out by Peta and WAP.  Even if the video was genuine - it does not prove this is standard practice just because they claim it does.  There are obvious reasons why they would push that narrative.      

 

Remember, these are captive elephants that spend their lifetimes around humans.  With no training and bond established between mahout and elephant, the chances of injury and deaths to humans living alongside and caring for elephants is significantly higher.  Learning is part of all life.  It is part of captive elephant life too.  It is important to note that training methods and practices have also changed for the better.     

 

Also, what about elephant healthcare?  If a mahout can't guide and have some sort of control over his elephant, how can the elephant be easily treated when healthcare is needed? Which will be often during the course of an elephant's (hopefully long) lifespan.  Note - elephants in captivity tend to live longer now than their completely wild counterparts.  This completely contradicts the belief that all mahouts and camps are abusing and exploiting their poor elephants.  Remember, many years ago elephants were used in logging - a far more brutal and demanding form of employment.   

 

Then there is the small (rather huge) matter of bull elephants.  Think for a moment how big and potentially dangerous they are.  Then there is musth - a time when a bull's testosterone levels are 60x their norm!  Think about the people who risk their lives caring for these bulls - yet going by the majority of posters on social media - just get slated from positions of total ignorance.  There is a reason why these supposedly "no hook no chains sanctuaries" do not have many bull elephants.  There is one at the much-lauded ENP - sadly confined to an enclosure after apparently taking the lives of at least two mahouts (but maybe more).  This elephant did NOT undergo training.  Rest of life in an enclosure doesn't sound like the best way to see out a lifetime.  Training then may be a very small price to pay for a captive elephant (and those charged with caring for them).      

 

So going back to what this whole issue is about.  Captive elephant training IS needed.  That DOES NOT mean unethical practices and cruel abuse.  Nor does it mean permanent separation from mother and baby.  If someone has employed such methods they are certainly not representative of all as those who work with elephants have said. 

 

I would not be so quick to fall for the one-sided narrative here promoted by animal rights organizations with vested interests (and heavily reliant on emotional donations that flow in - especially when the sad piano music set to a backdrop of almost unwatchable elephant pain and cries).  Heartbreaking edited video footage with a sad piano playing on in the background is a powerful combo.      

 

If the video was genuine and not staged then I await the places and names. 

 

I then HOPE action is rightfully taken.

 

However, it is plainly wrong to tar all those in captive elephant care with the same brush or equate essential training practices with elephant torture and abuse.   There are amazing camps where elephants are afforded all they would need to live long and healthy lives.  Captive elephant practices have also changed SO MUCH for the better.  

 

Yet someone still needs to feed and care for them and they need a big income to sustain their huge appetites.  To criticize all those caring for elephants (as many posters here are doing, and 95 pc of Western social media users commenting on the subject do) and suggesting they are all cruel and heartless animal abusers and exploiters is unhelpful, not least to the elephants themselves.   

     

50 minutes ago, digger70 said:

That Doesn't sound Right.

If the Footage filmed Was/Is Real than they must Name the Places where this took place  to Prove and to prosecute the people who done/do this to the Elephants. 

Agree. World Animal Protection are a huge London based international animal rights organisation with a huge influence in both the MSM and on social media.  

 

If government ministers are publicly asking for names and locations then why are they not forthcoming? There may be a reason but seems a tad suspect.

It means 2 things...

1. It was staged to push a false narrative and ensure the donations keep flooding in and the only places that get tourists (when tourism restarts) are those run and supported by the WAP

2. It is a genuine example of animal cruelty for which those guilty should/and seemingly will, be held to account. 

 

Regardless, it is NOT proof that this is how all elephants in captivity are trained. To use a shock video to try and eliminate ALL forms of elephant tourism is not only harmful to those who care for elephants and those dependent on them for their livelihoods, but also the elephants themselves.  They need an income. Someone needs care for them and to feed them. They eat. A lot.   And no - not all 3500 odd captive elephants can simply be held in observation only 'sanctuaries' until they eventually die of old age....nice idea that it is.

So why no names? Location?  Read about this in 4 different publications now but no location on names given once.

 

Despite this...

 

Environment minister Varawut Silpa-archa said animal cruelty was unacceptable and urged any group with information or evidence of abuses to come forward immediately.

 

"Because these kind of things, you know, a second delayed it means the life and death of these animals," he said.

 

Only goes to show that if the videos are genuine - it is not normalised and those responsible will be held to account.  Despite likes of WAP spreading the BS that this is standard practice for all captive elephants (it isn't) - to fit with their narrative (and keep those donations flooding in).  If names/locations are not given then it suggests it was indeed staged.  

4 minutes ago, finnsk said:

I just took a fast look at your website, I will look more later, looks as a good job you are doing. 

You're a good man.  Thank you for your informed opinions and open-minded attitude to a complex problem.  Like some exceptional elephant carers on the ground right now, you have the best interests of the elephants and their carers at heart.  

1 minute ago, finnsk said:

These elephants are not wild animals, they are dependent on feed support from humans now, they can not wait until land is going to be rented and the grass is growing up.

Small thai farmers in the mountains do not have much capacity to help the elephants, actually many farmers hate the elephants, when they go into the fields and destroy the farmer work.

Where do we have organized, corruption free, well driven donation systems for the poor elephants ?

You are informed so it is good to read your thoughts.  Of course, food is needed right now.  Going forward - having land to grow grasses would help ensure the elephants continue to be fed.  Land needs to be acquired and time is needed for grass to grow.  The maths is here.  https://www.weeboon.com/en/campaign/sustainable-future-for-elephants-    There is even the opportunity to actually converse with some of those on the ground right now caring for their elephants - though obviously due to location and the demands of what they are doing this can be temperamental.  There are about 100 (yes 100!) elephants back around the village right now - including many bull elephants.  

  

Paying for the food - right now it is heavily dependent on donations - either food donations from farmers (though being the tail end of the dry/burning season - food could not be more scarce), or money to then fund the transport to try and get what food may be out there.  Which at times has proved fruitless.  What we hope to support is the renting of land so going forward - grasses can be grown and elephants and their carers can be fed.  Supporting locals, empowering them, supporting elephants.  It is the most logical way forward but easier said than done.  

Lot of ignorant comments to this story.  While it doesn't surprise me, it is disappointing considering this is a "Thai forum" so I imagine most posters actually live here and know a little more about the captive elephant situation in Thailand.  I read horrendous things on Twitter but that is just a place for folk who know absolutely nothing about the complexities of this to virtue signal and put the world to rights in a self righteous echo chamber of Western savior ignorance.  Sadly, I see hardly any difference here.  Although, dare I say it, I expected a little better. 

 

This is a pretty desperate situation.  No - the elephants are not "slaves" who can just be freed "into the wild".  I expect those comments from folk in Alabama or Tunbridge Wells but not people who call Thailand home.  A bit of understanding and compassion would not go amiss.  There are amazing people in desperate circumstances doing their best for elephants right now.  Are all people good?  No.  Do I think those businesses who rented the elephants could be doing more to ensure the elephants and their mahouts are cared for now?  Absolutely. 

 

However, I know some of the mahouts caring for their elephants (yes THEIR elephants - they own them, care for them, and regard them as family), so to read some of the things written here is pretty depressing (good thing they do not have time to sit on forums all day - they have to actually take care of their elephants - which right now is unthinkably difficult).

 

For those who genuinely care, and would like to support some of these amazing people on the ground - and help work towards a sustainable future for them and their elephants, feel free to message me and I can share details of where your donation will go directly.  Hey, you may even get to speak to a mahout on the ground and tell them to "set their elephant free" - though get ready to be laughed at.     

My experience of Thai post - Had a parcel containing some Xmas gifts sent from home a few years ago that never arrived - traced it through that royal mail and they said it had arrived in Bangkok and beyond that they couldn't look into it further - was supposed to arrive in Chiang mai so was stolen by someone working for the Thai postal service clearly. Still angers me to this day for sentimental reasons as much as the expense of the goods it contained.

A few weeks later 2 letters were sent to me again from the UK - a student loans debt reminder and an embossed birthday card - no surprises for guessing which arrived and which didn't. I've also often had letters arrive that have been opened. It's scandalous that so many incidents of blatent thievery go on by employees of the Thai postal service.

To show that I'm being fair here I would say I've had no probs with parcels I've sent overseas (though not exactly containing valuables). For any future mail I had sent to me I made sure it was sent directly to my school as I felt they would be less likely to tamper with someone going to a school - though I avoid items being sent to me now or will pay extra for recorded delivery.

It's no wonder eBay sellers always list Thailand as a country they won't deliver to.

[quote name="ScouseTommy" post="8067427" timestamp="14047322

ERM.... read my post- didnt do 1, 2 or 3 and pretty much agreed with your numbers 1 and 2 in the second batch. Can you explain why your happy about some 'HUMAN BEINGS' dying?you don't know me, or half the others you are wishing death upon.

The only issue I cannot get my head around is your almost sociopathic need for someone you don't know to die?

I don't wish death on anyone - my father, sister and brother all smoke. But we will all die believe it or not.

While we are alive then we should try and live happy and healthy lives and treat others with decency and respect - one way smokers can do that is by not subjecting anyone else to their secondhand smoke. It's really not complicated and there is nothing to debate here.

Uncommon common sense point here but most people don't grasp this fact - when you smell smoke it means you are breathing in smoke. It's always an unpleasant surprise to go in the great outdoors and then smell cigarette smoke - someone can be smoking across the street - that shows how pervasive it is. It beggars belief that smokers got away (and still do in some countries) with smoking in confined public places for so long.

I recently was in 'left-wing/socialist' Berlin and was unpleasantly surprised to see many bars there still permit smoking. I almost forgot how much worse the hangovers are when your throat is killing, your eyes are dry, and your room, clothes, and even your skin all smell like an ashtray. Regardless of the health risks - that's offensive enough.

Smokers smoke away - enjoy it - just don't subject anyone else to your smoke. Can't be fairer than that - why do you get so sensitive to criticism?

On another note the '80 percent of the total population' smoking is glaringly wrong - for starters a large percentage of the population would fall into the under-15 demographic (and most of them obv don't smoke), not to mention over half the population being female - smoking among Thai females is not exactly prevalent.

Evidently lazy quoting of figures - similar to some of those I've read here by pro-smokers (e.g. 0.1pc increase of cancer through passive smoking - seriously?!)

If you want studies to prove just how harmful passive smoking is then you only have to have seen the recent news reports showing a massive drop in cases such as asthma since smoking bans were introduced in pubs and clubs in the UK.

But then a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest, la la la la la la la.

Why do smokers always cart out the same three arguments?

1. Name-calling/typecasting of those who dare oppose their dirty habit: e.g. Anti-smokers are akin to Nazis - telling us what we can and can't do, e.t.c.

2. Use projection - cars are just as bad, going on the tube is like smoking 10 cigarettes a day, e.t.c.

3. Tell us that old chestnut about their great gran who smoked and lived till 91, bless her.

Let's break it down to make it simple for those smokers who can't get their head around the issue:

1. Smoking is harmful - your smoke harms not just you, but those around you. Everyone should have the right to not have to breathe in the smoke of smoker. There is NO debate here - smoking in public places - that means anywhere that someone else may have to suffer your smoke - is unacceptable. To suggest you have a god given right to do what you want while harming others is slightly more 'Nazi-esque', than someone trying to rightfully fight against which is unequivocally wrong.

2. That other things harm us is not the debate here. Are those other things essential in the world we live in? In most cases yes. Is smoking essential? Obviously not.

3. 91? Great - I'm happy for you. She would've lived a bit longer if she didn't smoke though.

Smokers don't have a leg to stand on (sadly some literally don't due to the gangrene) when it comes to their rights to smoke in any public place (i.e. anywhere outside their smelly, brown-stained hovel). Thankfully they are a dying breed.

Same shit talkfestt as LAST YEAR.

the only way to.enforce change is EVERYONE ON HERE get on TRIPADVISOR and other travel sites black banning thailand during february march april and see how,fast th e government solves the problems when tourism drops through the floor.

These fools only.look at dollars,and smile. No bloody brains

There are those who say nothing will be done and never changes, etc. And granted it is very hard to see much being done when I see signs everywhere on my commute each day saying no burning yet see burning all over the place. What perhaps most annoys me is the needless burning - piles of leaves, rubbish, etc. All BURNING is bad. It's really is unbelievable to see folk burning. It is stupidity beyond comprehension really. How can folk be so ignorant?! Has the smoke killed their brain cells to such an extent that they cannot make the association between burning and illness?!

Maybe it is just me but I'm also noticing countless blokes driving bikes and smoking on my commute?! If the road pollution wasn't enough, why not drive breathing in seriously toxic air at 100km an hour, and then have a cheeky smoke to make sure the lungs really are given the best chance possible to develop a nice healthy cancer. Mental! You really couldn't make it up.

Anyway, the way the world is now with youtube and instagram and facebook and Tripadvisor (and no one loves those sites more than the Thais) makes it much easier to publicize the problem than say in 2007 when those sites were just starting. If tourists are deterred from coming here during the burning season - as they will be - then that may lead to some action. I have blogged about the problem and made a small video about it and put in on Youtube yesterday. Will it change anything? No. I'm not being delusional here. But it is something. And if it makes potential visitors aware of the problem and put them off coming here - which it will if they watch it/read it - then I feel that is good. Not only for giving them the opportunity to reconsider coming here during this time, but also because of the knock on effects of lost tourist cash. Money talks and it is the pressure from businesses and disgruntled locals that may make something happen.

In a perverse way I'm looking forward to that big golf tournament being hosted here on Thurs - it is suppose to publicize coming here! The schedulers have inhaled too much smoke it seems.

It's not all that bad really

Silly question, maybe, but I was thinking of travelling to Chiang Mai next week for the Chiangmai Classic golf at Alpine...Ernie Els is playing. Is it advisable? Surely the Asian Tour would not be holding the event - which is meant to promote tourism - if the air is hazardous to players' and spectators' health?

Seems madness to hold such a prestigious event and want to 'promote tourism' at this time of year. The air is shocking today. It has been bad for many weeks now and has got worse. It will almost certainly be bad next week too. Doubt the event will be cancelled though as would be huge loss of face. Wish it was though , then maybe, god forbid, more action was taken to address it. Come to the event if you really want to by all means, but you have been warned.

Thanks Market Trader for your most helpful advice

Any help much appreciated...

1. Taking driving lessons - anyone had lessons here and can recommend any driving schools in Chiang Mai? Rarely see any about. I did pass my test but it was years ago and I never drove after passing it so definitely need some refresher lessons - especially here with the roads being what they are.

2. Obtaining a Thai driving license - is this essential? How easy is it to obtain and what are the costs involved? There is an advert on citylife with some bloke saying he can help farang get this in 20mins - doesn't mention costs involved but obviously he wants his share - sounds like a scam but maybe he really is saving folk a potential headache?

3. Cars here seem extortionately expensive - I saw an advert recently aimed at farang for a 1994 civic for 159,000baht - that's almost 4000 pounds! Anyone have good experiences of reputable sellers here or have bought cars on credit?

I really know nothing about any of this which is obvious so apologies for my ignorance and thanks in advance for any relevant advice given.

I have had my UK ATM card sent here - was quoted from the UK it would take 5-6 days. It was sent first thing (9am) last Monday. Now 7 days on not including Saturday and Sunday and it hasn't arrived. I have a tracking number and it was sent registered/recorded delivery. I know it reached Thailand early last Friday (at the latest). As I have had a parcel of Xmas items not arrive in the past (stolen 100pc by Thai post), and another Christmas card taken (embossed card - clearly thought cash was in there) obviously I am worried. I have had it sent to the school I used to work at as presumed they would not tamper with a recorded delivery to a teacher at the largest school in Chiang Mai. Also it wouldn't 'get lost'. I cannot access money without the card. I can book flights without the card. I cannot pay bills without this card. Absolute nightmare. Anyway how can I start tracing the whereabouts of the card? Any ideas? Like I said I have the tracking number from the UK but that only says it has reached Thailand. It certainly should not take this time to get from BKK to Chiang Mai.

Thanks in advance for any useful advice that may be given.

Cheers for all the helpful advice. The hospital have also suggested possibly they keep my passport as insurance and then when I get my card (hopefully not more than a few days later) I can pick it up when I pay. But from reading all the posts I reckon I just move the money on my one-off transfer Nationwide will grant me to my mate's Nationwide account (incurring no fees and it will be instant) then see if he can come to the hospital and pay for it when I'm leaving. Or just move it across and get him to go to the bank and withdraw it in cash. So there are options clearly.

I actually went to the 7-11 and asked about the card this evening (not sure why I didn't bother before - presumed they would have nothing to do with Bangkok Bank's ATM machine outside) but sure enough they had over 30 swallowed ATM cards right there behind the counter. And after going through them all mine still wasn't there! Did make me feel less stupid for not taking my card - I think that particular machine has a reputation for being only too keen to swallow. I presume mine will join the 7-11 bundle of homeless cards in the next week - though that's of little use now.

Must have been a huge card.

Haha - using a forum is clearly proving to be as confusing for me as using an ATM. Must be the pollution up here today. Was obv meant to read 'ATM swallows card' or 'card swallowed by ATM'. Thou I suppose the heading I gave at least has got noticed.

Anyway anyone know how much you can withdraw over the counter using your card and passport here? If it is up to 70k baht (1500 sterling) then I will use my one-off emergency transfer to send to a mate and then get him to withdraw it. I will ask a bank but would rather know the experiences of others first so I know what to expect.

Cheers

Been to the bank but they said card is gone for good (was a random ATM outside a 7-11)

Luckily I've withdrawn enough to last the next week - but the problem is replacing the card - ordered a new one and been quoted 5 working days. Then it needs to be posted out here from the UK.

I am having surgery next Sunday and don't know how I can pay for it without a card. It will cost around 50-70k baht and I've waited a while to get this date for surgery so don't want to cancel.

I did have a credit card but Barclaycard cancelled it as I rarely used it. I've rang Nationwide and there is not much I can do - even to make an online bank transfer you need to type in a code generated by a card reader that necessitates having a card.

One option is to make a one-off transfer from my account to a friend's (I am allowed to do this over the phone). I was wondering how much he can withdraw over the counter in one go? Like I said I may need up to 70,000baht - is it possible to withdraw such an amount over the counter?

Thanks for any advice.

I withdrew money from my Nationwide account today using an Aeon Atm at 11.15 am and no problem. This was at Big C,Chiang Mai

Hi Techno, is the Big C the one nearish the train station? I may have to drive down there. If not I'll go into a bank with my card and passport first thing 2moro as rixalex advises. Just don't understand why this is happening so often now - but evidently I'm not alone.

Anyone having problems today - have just tried 6 different banks and no luck. I am using a Nationwide card, have funds in the bank. This is the fourth time in the past 3 months I've had this problem. I've called the helpline number for overseas customers 3 times in the past but always been told the same thing - all is fine this end and no reason why I can't withdraw the cash. Down to 100baht and this is really doing my nut in. I never had this problem when I was using my Nationwide account here a few years ago - also wasn't charged by them or the Thai banks for the privilege of doing so.

Thanks Sheryl for the most helpful of replies :jap: