ThaiWanderer68

I wonder if I should ask, if I can change the title of this thread to:

"Will Americans be LIVING in Tuk Tuks in the future"

Just an observation given the state of the economy and housing market

Personally I still have a conscience, and if I think I can do something about a situation I will. Not enough people in my view are prepared to stand up and be counted.

I'd recommend a read of "The Stoppable Rise of Arturo Ui" to many people in Thailand. That's the English translation of Berthold Brechts short work. It's about a thug called Arturo Ui who rises to power, and a parody of how Hitler rose to power. A key point was it was "stoppable" not "unstoppable". How many millions suffered on that one because people carried on walking... Where do you draw the line?

Those who automatically walk away as a matter of practice in my view are selfish and spineless. You should as a minimum be thinking what you could do to help.

One of the problems in Thailand is people are too selfish and spineless to step in if they see something wrong. Those doing wrong often know that, so it never gets any better.

Interesting story taxexile. So what happened next? Did you go and apologise?

I'd agree with sbk's reply to a large degree.

But cut the guy a little slack at least he was prepared to get involved and do something. Bear in mind it was probably heat of the moment too. It might be OK for sbk or another woman to immediately attend to the woman. I think if a guy tried to do that, though, there's a very strong chance he would be attacked while doing so. Hence clearing the immediate danger out of the way first mightn't have been such a bad idea.

Shame that people have chosen so far to criticise and focus on the OPs actions. The bigger issues really are the way the guy beat up his wife. Nobody did anything. But when someone does get involved, suddenly 4 people do feel the urge to get involved.

For me you've got to question more:

1) The Thai guy's actions in beating up his wife

2) 4 people standing by and doing nothing while a woman gets assualted.

3) Yet they will get involved when someone else tries to intervene.

4) Sort of implies it's OK for a husband to beat up his wife in Thailand. Actually this also seems to extend to anyone of higher status beating up someone lower

5) Reaction and comment that you don't get involved in something that is wrong, unless it's your own family.

BTW OP, Going back later looking for a fight though is just plain stupid. Finding yourself in the middle of a situation is one thing. Going looking for a situation is completely different. Unfortunately your own stupid behaviour has sort of undermined what otherwise would have been more interesting points/issues for discussion.

For me the 5 points above are the ones more worthy of discussion...

... but i do have just as much sympathy for guys that are swindled as i do girls.

Refreshing point of view, and would agree entirely.

There's an awful lot of western women in Thailand, as well as western guys who have left Thailand, who have chips on their shoulders, and seem to feel the need to keep "proving" western men and Thai women relationships in a bad light. They also like to think it is the majority in order to make themselves feel better.

That western guys latch on to the western-female/Thai guy equivalent relationship that has problems, just to retaliate (or perhaps even preempting) does no-one any favours either.

My view is always that the nice guy/girl that gets taken advantage of deserves compassion and sympathy. Not the "it's your own fault you should no better". After all in most cases, they're just nice trusting people getting taken advantage of.

It's a sad reflection on those people who use these situations/relationships to make themselves feel better.

Luckily these type of failures are not the majority. Though they are uncomfortably common.

Don't worry, the farang ladies will address the balance. In the eyes of many Thai guys, "farang girls are free and easy". No sin sot required. Someone for everyone.

Says a lot that this "cultural tradition" is somehow overlooked when a Thai guy marries a western girl. I've never met a single western lady that received a sin sot. Speaks volumes.

Someone mentioned above about checking who the money actually goes to. This is probably something to consider. The guy obviously isn't used to manage "large amounts" he's now earning. That increases the risk sorry to say that there may have been a financial element to the marriage for him. There are plenty of nice ladies that get taken for a ride. But maintain a healthy aproach and give the benefit of the doubt. Too many people get paranoid about the stories they hear.

As for budgeting, that's good advice, but bear in mind most Thais often haven't even learnt to track spending very well, which is even more fundamental. Hence if you get them to try and make a budget at this stage that could well be too much, and just theory. I'd say both track your spending first, and get him in the habit of doing so. Then when you have an idea of spending patterns make a budget. Otherwise the budget could be very theoretical.

i.e 1) track your spending for a while 2) then add in the concept of income compared to spending 3) make a budget 4) compare budget to actual.

For the sending money to parents, that's a cultural lesson. You've now got an idea of where a Thai's priorities often lie. Often parents first, children second (for Thai ladies, for Thai guys less clear), spouse third. Don't fall into the trap of getting annoyed about this, but I would suggest you consider gently raising yourself up the priority list, and being patient doing so. Over time as marriage grows you should fnd yourself becoming increasingly more priority, but you need to work on it from day 1.

i.e don't confront directly about him sending money to his parents. But don't just let it pass either. You need to establish yourself (and your family) as a priority, and start developing the concept of compromise. Thai guys are often used to getting their own way from their mothers, and often expect that from wifes as well. In your shoes I would highlight to him that you would like to also give money to your parents but you don't have enough, and can he help. If he asks why you don't have enough, say you are also trying to pay the money back as this is your custom and culture. This way you have not asked him for money for the debt, but hopefully you have shown him his actions have repercussions for you and by asociation him as well. Explaining the concept of his debt to your family may be too many steps for him at this stage. Hence the indirect route you to parents, you short, could he help? After some time you can't get more direct, as you both grow.

Also the comment about tucking away money for your parents/family is a good one. Don't have to specify parents, just say family. That way you can ensure it's there for your son, parents, yourself later if need be.

Lastly in Thai-Thai relationships it is the norm for the Thai guy to take financial care of his spouse. I know Thai friends where the woman keeps her salary and he pays everything. That is among Thais. To gain respect and equal partnership, this might be worth considering. Then you give way to sharing and helping him as time goes by. If you start with the sharing, or worse still you paying everything, it doesn't teach him the value of compromise. His nature will be to sort of negotiate, so if you start in the middle, it ends more in his benefit, as you give way. Start with your own family interests and hopefully you then end in themiddle.

Be firm but by being indirect, and be careful not to be the one doing all the compromising, and cultural giving/understanding, even though you are probably better placed to adjust. It sounds like he is not very aware of western culture, so if you give too much to his culture without him being coached into giving to you, it doesn't bode well for the future. You also need to start from day1. He won't suddenly change his behaviour and cultural patterns.

Good post. Also liked the other website/blog you posted a link to.

From my observations, this is proportionally just as common for foreign women in Thailand as it is for foreign men in Thailand. The main diff being Thailand gets more male visitors. The comments would apply equally for either, as do the getting taken for a ride.

It's also not limited to beach boys either. Only thislunch time an obvious foreign tourist had picked up a guy from wherever, and had taken him for lunch. He had a large grin on his face as the bill came and was diverted straight to the foreign woman. The relationship was probably obvious to most in the restaurant, with the exception of the naive holday maker in question.

I do believe that people in the west are generally brought up to trust others unless someone gives them reason to do otherwise. This often makes them sitting ducks in Thailand. Then again I was no different either on arival many years back.

A tad aggressive GH.

I'm not so worried about your thinly veiled attack on 'Pattaya Man' (which I agree with to a large extent even though it's clearly preempted by your stereotyping), but rather the parallel that the poor "Issan woman" is on a par with "pattaya Man'. That does come across as racist which is my sole largest irritation regarding the richer "Bangkok type Thais". Their thought process can be summed up below.

White Chinese Thai woman = good.

Black Issan woman = bad stupid lazy whore.

This prevelant attitude is of course the reason why these Bangkok elites are disliked by the majority of the Thai population (and me).

My post is not a thinly veiled attack on anyone, not even this person you refer to as 'Pattaya Man' [a stereotype of your own making?] it is certainly not an attack on Issan women.

I do not mention Issan, Pattaya, Bangkok or Chinese and I certainly do not make any reference to 'Bad Stupid Lazy Whores' - [Another stereotype of your own making?].

Given these wide departures in your interpretation from what I actually said it is no wonder you find my post aggressive - It is not, and I believe with a fair reading cannot be interpreted as such.

Perhaps we are being a tad over defensive - nes pas?

I think GH is probably talking more about himself and his own experiences. As he doesn't live here anymore, perhaps he doesn't realised life has moved on quite some way from the stereotypes of when he was probably last in Thailand. Even though the stereotypes still exist, the new Thai lady generation is much more open-minded. Looks more like a swipe to make himself feel better by trying to put others down. I assume he was a non-caucasian farang, who are somewhat looked down on by Thais. That is unfair also but hopefully will change as well.

As for the quote:

It's all down to the fact that foreign men on the whole don't get to meet the fairer skinned Thai women, this on account of where the majority of foreign men in Thailand meet Thai women

Most foreigners I know here, get to meet lovely Thai ladies of all colours and backgrounds. Anyone with a job will meet a whole spectrum of coulours at work. Anyone visiting MBK for shopping likewise...You do need a positive outlook and happy disposition though.

After that it's down to individual choice. Some like dark chocolates, some like milk...The variety is what makes life interesting.

Welcome Spicegirl

I saw your original post in the general section and saw it had disappeared. I hadn't realised it was here now.

What a shame that the one version left remaining was left on the ladies section. One hundred+ views and no replies...What a miserable lot.

Good luck in your search anyway...

There is a story on stickmans bangkok written by a thai/american guy called "why i never married a thai" you might find it quite interesting

Go ahead and read it, but take Stickman with a pinch of salt. He has some rather dubious interests in what he writes. He also attracts a large follwing of a particular kind.

Decent families don't keep the sin sot, not even half, but return the full amount to the newlyweds to start their new life off with. It is not money paid to the family for having raised a daughter but money the man uses to show that he is capable of taking care of his wife.

With all due respect to sbk, who is quite knowledgeable about Thailand and her community, she might be correct about her particular community, but the practice does vary enormously across Thailand. I have known familes keep it all, some have returned it all, and some have done as in the case of OP of paying more and returning part as a compromise. Some parents invest it in one way or another for the benefit of the couple.

In addition 400k is not an unreasonable sum for a girl from a good family. The first Thai wedding I ever went to about 9 years ago had a similar amount, from Thai to Thai. So half that could be a fair compromise.

The best option is really to have a senior Thai negotiate and discuss on your behalf.

No doubt you will also hear a lot of doom mongers giving horror stories about Thai ladies. Just bear in mind, there are a lot of negative people on Thai Visa. They are by no means representative of normal people in Thailand. Plenty of guys have successful relationships in Thailand.

If unsure give it more time...

One thing I haven't seen much of, is when a foreign lady marries a Thai. sbk perhaps you could help us on that one. Please note I'm not looking to know numbers, as I consider that very personal to you, but I wonder what happened in your case. This would be very telling as to the extent that Thais expect it to cross cultures.

6, 7, 24, 85, 95 and the one without the moustache or tattoo

I think this is a wind up. I just went and knocked next door. I can assure you the lady who answered the door looked nothing like any of these.

Maybe a talking dictionary?

I bought one over a year ago ....

Most guys in Thailand acquire a long haired thai dictionary...

I think the language barrier is one reason people stay longer than they otherwise would.

Thailand isn't always the wonderful place you thought it was, once you understand what is going on and what people are saying.

I just opened the thread as I assumed it was a female's question...

Actually when we had our house blessed, one of the older Thais told us to buy some alcohol (rice wine) and cigarettes to offer to the spirit as part of the ceremony. In a similar context I was a bit surprised these should be part of the offerings.

Made a lot of good friends over the years here, but inevitably many move on. For expats I think Asia attracts people with something a little atypical of the people of their home country. So we all have something in common to go to a new place, which is a great basis for making new friends.

Most of the best friends I have in Thailand are western though, plus a few locals...

this is a forum for information, not for slanderous and malicious attacks on individuals. i suggest you pm someone the next time you are feeling cranky. good day kind sir.

Noi,

That's not what you're your schizophrenic sister thinks ... At least from reading the number of posts you've / she's been deleted from or had closed due to your own slanderous and malicious attacks. Have a word with her, next time you two overlap.

Why not ask your "friend" again. Are you saying you don't believe them, don't trust them, or just think they don't know what they're talking about. Think you've spent too much time trying to put people down on your threads that you have lost your trust in humanity. Or maybe you feel a need to invent a friend. BTW Why are you asking on a mainly expat forum - judging from your other posts (which have a habit of being closed or deleted for flaming or personal insults) I thought you looked down on all other expats with the exception of yourself

Actually your friend is partially correct...there is a little more to it than simply 180 days tho'...

Stickman deserves little respect or credit, and has done more than most to tarnish ESL teachers with his own brush.

Think you crystallised the point quite well there. Internet, and sites like Stickman in particular, have really been a key factor in propagating the English teaching and sex industry combination, and stigmas.

On the subject of where the stigmas come from. There's no smoke without fire. There are whoremongers and sexpats in the industry. Though there are some dedicated people too. The internet also propagates these stigmas, in the same way it does many other stigmas.

One website that comes to mind is Stickman. In his early years he used to write about teaching. Yet at the same time perhaps more about the sex indusry and bars in Thailand. His trips to the infamous Thermae, as well as whoremongering commentaries in Pattaya. Nana, Cowboy, being a judge in Nanapong gogo contests describing what naked girls were doing on stages for prizes to win 10k prizes etc. This really juxtaposed the two industries.

You don't regulalrly visit Thermae out of curiosity of what other people do. Get real. Once he got married he has tried to cut the links a little with this industry and claim his website is more generally about Thailand. Thats perhaps true of his website today, butit's still quite bar focused. He started out with a very heavy focus on this industry, and one of the best known websites in Thailand for sex and English teaching. I don't think it's any coincidence he's only archived his columns from 2006, and 2007 on the new website. The earlier years aren't there for his weekly columns. He's grown up a little and feels/realised the need to disassociate himself from his earlier writings. The readers submissions going back to the start (2000-ish) are there (which he can claim are not his own wrtings), but not his weekly columns,

There are other such sites but his is perhaps one of the best known.

In the same way Stickman now tries and looks down on whoremongerers, forgetting he himself was one. I wonder how many people teacher bashing on TV also used to be teachers, or whoremongeres, and have grown out of it, but feel a need to distance themselves from it all? Part of the way they do this is by putting others down. Hiding their own inadequacies or guilt, by bashing easy targets.

I hadn't really noticed much teacher bashing on TV. Then again I've never visited the teaching forum. What I do see, is when people are looking for jobs in Thailand, teaching English often gets quoted. That's because it's one of the easiest jobs for a foreigner to get here. Teaching English in Thailand does have stigmas attached to it though, particularly being low paid, and its associations with the sex industry.

I have a TEFL qualification and considered teaching here at some point. These stigmas were some of the key reasons not to teach for me. (Although there were a lot of others too). On the 1 month course I did, it was obvious a couple of people were choosing it as a means to allow them to stay in Thailand and indulge in the sex industry. That said the majority of people on our course weren't like that. The point to me, is I'd consider people willing to pay a fee for a month's training course to be linked to the more dedicated people. But even even among that there were say 10%+ doing it for the wrong reasons. If you get people teaching English without qualifications or experience, and without being willing to invest, I'm sure the proportion of people doing it for the sex industry links increases.

I've seen some very good English teachers, who were quite dedicated. It's a tough business and sometimes not that well respected or treated. They don't have the same status as Thai teachers. Plus there can be a lot of hassles with the schools, adminstration. Career prospectives aren't great. (Though who's to say careers are so important). So with low income, lot of hassle, few career prospectives, people question why others would do it. They overlook dedication and enjoyment.

From what I've seen, it suits a more mature person, who perhaps already had a career, and is winding down or retiring. Or someone wanting to live a middle-class reasonanbly comfortable lifestyle outside Bangkok. Older people also seem to get more respect.

Does anyone understand how the "share" system works here? Seems to be often to mostly between small groups of women. The each put in a certain amount per month, say baht 1,000, then ????

How does any of them get any benefit of the "shares" they've "invested?"

Seems to me I heard the word "bid" used but don't understand how it works.

Mac

I thought one of them usually steals it all...

I'd say go for it. In your twenties you can afford mistakes with your career, and the benefits of what you could gain outweigh the risks. Anyway, what's the alternative?

Being in a different country with different culture will help you when you move to another country. There's also a fair bit of overlap in Thai and Vietnamese thinking. They would be closer linked to each other than say working in Canada. Friends I know who have worked in Vietnam then transferred to Thailand (or vie versa), have found they aready had a certain amount of cultural awareness to leverae off when moving countries, and were ahead of "newbies" to either country.

You might also find out that it is you rather than a particular country/environment that really matters. After a couple of years or so in Thailand I wasn't learning much from the Thais themselves. However, the country does put you in situations you wouldn't normally be in, and give you the enviroments to learn more about yourself.