MisterE

And now the site is gone all together. Some things don't last very long here in LOS.

Some children just need more time than others...but that would cause the family to lose face...sooo probably won't happen here. As long as the kids feel they can pass without doing any real work, they won't become good at English...Just my 2 cents.

Or any other subject and teachers will have no real authority or respect. Well siad and spot on!

The 'respect' teachers are given is part of a much larger smoke and mirrors act. False respect is an easy trade to get one to work for a pittance (Thai and foreign teachers alike.)

That's how most foreign teachers of good conscience will act.

Down deep, they know what's right whether they follow it or not.

That's very true and future employers, who do their due diligence, are products of the same education system and they know damn well what the the ocean of difference between what a barely passing D grade (e.g. should have failed) what and a high B grade means.

I know personally of a private school that "doesn't accept" grades under 75% for the students.

Sorry if this minor rant is a repeated rant but after looking at a number of the ads for teachers located in the usual places I'm not surprised at the results of these test scores.

I'm an experienced teacher with legit credentials & experience within ESL. The issue? I'm over 50 and some of the ads indicate an unwilingness to hire me due to age. Maybe these are more negotiable than they appear but putting an age limit of 45 on teachers is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

Until or unless people get it out of their heads that being over 35, 40, 50 etc.. is not a problem then it may be a long road out of the cycle of Khao San recruitment errors...........

It doesn't matter what they say in the ads, it matters far more what they see in the picture you send them. Also, it matters how hard up for teachers they are. Everything is flexible but, with your qualifications, I'm sure you're not even interested in replying to those crap jobs in various backwaters around the country. You should be in the international gigs or at least at a good private school where your age will be much less of an issue.

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

It may not "automatically qualify" a person, but being a native English speaker is a big PLUS. Backpackers could prove to be as good or better than trained teachers. Teaching, like parenting, is more of an innate skill than a learned skill. Growing up, I went to 11 schools in 13 years in 6 countries, and I know first hand how terrible some tenured teachers can be. More often, the un-certified teachers did the better job of engaging and challenging students - than oldsters who couldn't be fired because of seniority and strong unions.

But do I think I could construct a teaching plan, know how to get across the concept of tenses, conditional clauses, explain grammar exceptions, get some one to understand the differences between verbs, adjectives and nouns?

Do I have knowlege of class management techniques, current educational theories, how to manage a class of 50 students?

If you're doing it the way you're describing, teaching grammar, then you'e doing it wrong. This is what the Thai teachers do and why Thais can't speak English. They need practice using the language, not lectures on grammar. It's really not difficult to come up with activities that force the students to use the language both in and out of class. You don't need a degree in education to create good communicative, student centered lessons. Anyone with a decent head on their shoulders can do it, with some effort, and some have a natural gift for it that they don't discover until they stand in front of their first class.

As for classroom management that is a problem unique to Thai students because they are lazy slackers. Chinese, Burmese, Nepalese, Indian, etc. students hang on every word teachers say, ask questions and are extremely well behaved. Classroom management for these nationalities is non-existant. Since it's pretty much unique to Thailand and crappy inner city schools in the West it's a skill that can really only be acquired on the job.

How much of your education do you use in your daily work for whatever you do? Most professionals I have worked with such as engineers (of all disciplines), architects, code compliance inspectors, land use planners, etc. find very little of what they learned in college useful (except for math in the case of engineers who have to do complex calculations but even then they're all using scientific calculators and computer programs) in their day-to-day work duties.

I would have thought Thai students were WORSE than this. The stupid systems the Government has for people who ACTAULLY speak english is terrible. You have to LEAVE thailand to get a visa for a few months to come back and TEACH THais english. Then the money you earn you use agaoin to leave the country to get another Vidsa to come back. this is the case for most people I speak to or they teach ILLEGALLY on retirement visas. getting a proper work visa is hard because the incentive to be paid a low wage is not really there.

Sorry but I have to correct you on this. It's perfectly legal to work on a retirement visa if you obtain a work permit. A visa is permission to stay in the country, a work permit is permission to work. I know plenty of people on "O" visas based on marriage or retirement who have work permits and work and pay taxes legally in Thailand. There is no such thing as a "work visa." Most people are confused about this because they need a visa from the school and that is always a Non-Imm "B" business visa. But, if you already have a Non-Imm "O" visa all you need is the work permit. In fact, this is the desired situation because the school does not have you by the balls by controlling your visa. If you have an "O" visa the extension of stay is not based on your work permit and if you want to leave a school you just turn in your work permit and go about your life as usual.

The only way to quickly improve the situation is for the government to through a lot more money into english programs at all levels of formal education, and paying foreign (qualified) teachers a decent salary to teach here. Waiting until university to teach academic english is too late in my book.

I think you mean "throw" not "through" but, anyways, you are right. It will never happen of course because an educated population would start asking questions and challenging the powers that be e.g. the Bangkok elite.

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

Speak for yourself, I constantly receive praise from Thais for my command of their language and there are plenty of expats on this forum who, for all intents and purposes, could be considered fluent.

I have zero respect for expats who can't even be bothered to learn enough of the language in the country they live in to get by. How would you treat an immigrant in your home country who has none or very low proficiency in the native language of your country?

I could not hire several good construction contractors in the US because their crew foremen were all Mexican and their command of English was not up to par for me to communicate effectively with them.

I have a feeling that you have very little exposure to Thai teachers of English.

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

Isn't it the norm a natives grammar skills are not as good as a non-native?

Yes, Thais are experts in English grammar but can't speak the language. Foreigners with an interest in learning Thai do learn some Thai grammar, more than Thais do, and can speak some of the language.

This is not a Thailand specific problem, it's a natural outcome from the way first languages are acquired, by immersion. Natives, unless they study their native language at university, usually have no clue about the grammar rules of their first, native, language.

The reason for this is that textbooks are not chosen based on what is best for the students. The decision is based on how big the kickback from the publishing distributors the school (director) will receive for placing the order. Profit and especially 'tea money' come first, everything else takes a back seat to that.

Just another reason for life imprisonment, and a 5,000,000 baht fine to the family of any official caught taking bribes of this sort. How long would this practice continue? Officials are getting executed in China, imprisoned in Malaysia, and Indonesia, and building huge villas in Thailand.

TiT

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

Teaching is a profession with a lot of background knowledge in learning psychology, teaching methodology etc. involved if you want to do it properly and successfully. Being good at handling students, empathy etc. are preconditions for good teachers anyway but by far not sufficient.

To be honest, I find this "anyone can teach, it's a gift" attitude naive and dangerous. What do you think do teachers to-be learn at uni?

I never said anyone can teach, I said some have a gift and are naturally good at it while others, like me, have to work hard at it. And yes, some don't belong in a classroom at all. Please do read my replies more carefully. Thanks.

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

The reason for this is that you are not taught the grammar rules of your native language. It's not necessary because you learn it by immersion.

Try to get a native Thai speaker or teacher to explain the grammar rules of Thai to you. For example, ask them why vowels are often written before consonants when they are not pronounced in that order. The word for fire ไฟ (fie) is spelled sara-I for-fun but, it's pronounced exactly the opposite. The answer you will receive back is a blank stare because they can not admit they don't understand the grammar of their own language. That would be a loss of face for them even though it's perfectly understandable because they learned their language through immersion.

The problem is Thai schools like to boast about the native speakers on their staff but the Thai teachers do 90% of the English classes. Also, the schools have a horrible attitude toward the foreign teachers. Foreign teachers are window dressing to bring in the students. Bait and switch.

I'm out of positive votes for the day but I could not agree more. The treatment of foreign teacher here by Thai school admin is appalling yet, they stick them up at the front of every assembly and in photos on their websites to show off their white faced teachers. The white face teachers bring in the kids whose parents pay the big bucks then, are shat on in the staff room in ways that incompetent Thai teachers would never be treated.

Don't even get me started on staff room politics where jealous Thai and Filipino teachers take every opportunity to undermine their foreign colleagues and make them look bad to the bosses. All of this for their own self interest and perceived personal gain and all to the detriment of the students' welfare and education.

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

What exactly is so wrong with this? A teacher has to get their first experience from somewhere, why not in Thailand where it really can't get any worse than it already is? What harm could they possibly do when Thai English teachers can't even speak the language?

The best teachers have a gift and are just naturally good at it / born for it. Others, like me, have had to work hard at it.

I question why Thailand is comparing countries. The TOEFL is not meant to be used to compare countries: too many differences to have any value. What does the article making the comparison accomplish that is in any way positive? Have English skills been a priority? Have TOEFL scores been a priority for Thai educators? Are there numerous student test-takers who plan on an education at an English speaking university that require a TOEFL score for admittance? If the answers are no, then what does this have to do with anything?

As you know, the people taking this test are the elite. The best educated in Thailand who are headed to international programs at universities in countries where English is the first language. I think it's a metric that does have value and it correlates well with the results of other techniques used to measure English proficiency. Thailand is at the bottom of all of them.

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

Try asking 1,000 Thai English teachers the same question and tell me if you get even 1 correct answer.

Also, Thais have much bigger problems than when to use "effect" or "affect" so, I'm sorry, your example is a very poor one. I understand the point you're trying to make but it would carry more weight if the English person couldn't say, "Hello my name is and last weekend I did..."

My daughter is in High school in Issan. If I'm with her when she's got English homework to do.. I will try simplify/explain the basics of the exercise.

Well how do you explain to the girl that the text-book she's working from is way,way to hard for her, & even has me reading the relevant page over & over to try make some eligible sense of the topic.

The Education Committee here seem to have no idea when it comes to allocating what 'level' of text book to issue to each class/year in the schools.

So the kids quickly get 'bogged-down', do not understand any of the relevant topics, & therefore do not learn anything from these books.

In no time at all the students are bored with learning English..& I for one can understand this.

I have taught English in a Thai high-school, & at the start of each lesson I'd call out "O.K...Open your text-books at page (whatever)".

Straight away a negative wave rolled it's way across the whole class, c/w moans & groans.

Having made my own exercises & printed sheets on the same 'topic of the day'..I held up a wad of photocopies & proudly stated..

"Or shall we work off these"..?? "YEAHHHH" was the enthusiastic reply.

O.K. more trees may have had to be felled to cater for the needs of that hungry photo-copier, but 47 kids learnt what they were supposed

to each day, & (I hope) enjoyed each English lesson with me. ( & yes, those text books stayed in their bags, & the school principal OK'd

my way of teaching them 'enjoyable English'.) KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR THEM & THEY MAY WELL LIKE LEARNING ENGLISH.

The reason for this is that textbooks are not chosen based on what is best for the students. The decision is based on how big the kickback from the publishing distributors the school (director) will receive for placing the order. Profit and especially 'tea money' come first, everything else takes a back seat to that.

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

Try asking 1,000 Thai English teachers the same question and tell me if you get even 1 correct answer.

Many retirees from English speaking countries would embrace teaching if it was allowed.

There are between 3 to 6 million long term foreign residents (depending on source), yet they cannot be used to help teach.

Why do you think career driving lorries/building houses/running a business or whatever would enable one to TEACH English?

You make the same mistake that the Thais seem to make. A native ability to speak a language does not mean that one can teach that language in any meaningful sense.

At least they would be able to speak the language they are teaching. Becoming a good teacher in Thailand is on the job training for the most part. As I said in my previous post, some of the best teachers I have ever met in this country had no formal training in education when they started. They understood Thai culture and found out they had a knack for teaching. Some just have the gift, others like me have to work hard at it.

It really can not get any worse than it already is so what's the harm in trying?

Through the medium of English this nation would benifit considerably in both knowledge and understanding and that is exactly what this and successive Governments before ,do not want. They shake in their designer shoes at the thought of and educated and adequately informed public. Raise the IQ of this nation by 10 % and the current forms of administaration and Governance are doomed.

It is not just arrogance or zenophobia that restrict and impairs the proliferation of English , it is fear in the lack of control of the population whom they currently feed a banquet of absolute bullshit on a daily basis and get away with it.

Hammer, nail, head! Well said, this is the true root of the problem. They do not want a meritocracy.

One thing Thailand could do to improve proficiency levels quickly is Romanize the Thai Language script, like Malaysia did with Malay. Of course, this will never happen, the Thai culture preservation hawks start crapping bricks sideways at the mere mention of it.

What I learn from these prep courses is not only were their english skills not at the level to get the most from prep courses, but the students really didn't know how to approach/study/take a test and that was the most disturbing to me - totally unprepared for what they to experience and a 30 or a 50 hour prep course was not the quick fix that they wanted or more importantly needed. They were doomed b/c all the years and hours due to poor and ineffective teaching...

Indeed. I have done a lot of TOEIC test prep, which is a similar test as TOEFL but for occupational candidates. Students want jobs in the tourism industry, with airlines, etc. Completely agree that their English levels, even students with MAs in English, were not high enough to have even a chance at scoring a 600 which is the minimum to be considered by a multi-national hotel chain or an airline. 670 is what they really want. Scores from students who took the test prior to my arrival averaged 250. I quickly realized that teaching these students English was a total waste of time. The best value I could give them for the time I had with them was to teach them test taking skills. For example, you read the questions and answers first, then go back and skim the reading passage looking for specific information. It's all about time management and most students don't do well because they are taking too long to answer the questions and/or wasting too much time on 1 hard question when they should be skipping it and moving on to the easier ones then, time permitting, come back to the more difficult questions.

Teaching test taking skills and doing endless practice tests is quite boring for both the student and teacher. There simply is no way to make this kind of teaching sanook (fun) so many students dropped out early and, others sat in the back like zombies taking no notes. The very few that worked hard at it were able to bring their scores up by as much as 200 points, without learning a single new thing about English. (Doesn't say much for the way the test is designed.) Still, they were scoring well below the 600 they wanted and of course I took the heat and was shat on because they didn't get the magic English proficiency pill they thought they had signed up and paid for.

I was paid well but was chasing a hopeless goal, had unhappy students who misplaced blame on me instead of the incompetent Thai English teachers they had had throughout their primary, secondary and tertiary education so I moved on after training my replacement. My Filipino replacement insisted that teaching English was the way to go so, I was quite satisfied when I stopped by 6 months later to find out that scores were back down to 250. I was asked to return and my answer was "som nam na."

The Thai education system was modernized in the reign of Rama V, at the time rote learning was the only methodology in use pretty much everywhere. Researchers and teachers have found more effective methods to teach since then but nothing has changed in Thailand.

Fixing visa problems would go a long way to improving English skills. Many retirees from English speaking countries would embrace teaching if it was allowed.

There are between 3 to 6 million long term foreign residents (depending on source), yet they cannot be used to help teach.

Yes but, first you have to make Thai students want to learn English for any of these people to be able to be put to use. You also would have to cut class sizes and add more foreigners to the payrolls which means less money for the poo yais running the school. Never going to happen.

as to the problem of lower wages, i agree that in europe you can earn more than in thailand. but compared to the wages of thai teachers of english these wages seem to be quite higher.

So what if foreigners are paid considerably more than Thai teachers, it's still not enough. Any idea how much Thais with graduate levels of education spend for their education? You can earn a PhD in this country for under a million Baht. I spent that much on the first 2-years of my tertiary education. Foreigners come from a better education system and should be compensated as such.

i see your point. however, why do you think the schools should pay higher salaries if there are qualified teachers of english who are willing to accept the offered salaries....

I don't think a degree in basket weaving or comparative religions makes one a qualified teacher.

That said, some of the best teachers I've ever met in Thailand are unqualified by that standard. They have learned on the job what works and are very effective. Well, as effective as the broken system allows them to be. As I said in my previous post teaching Thai students [well] is a very unique skill that should not be undervalued. Japanese, Chinese, Nepalese, Burmese, etc. students are eager to learn and hang on every word the teacher says often asking questions and really keeping the teacher on their toes. Thais sit there like bags of sand, chat with their friends, play with their iPhones and a teacher who doesn't know how to teach Thai students well will spend half of the class time on classroom management and discipline which, is a battle the teacher will never win.