capaotung

It aint so. My last foray on the topic of all things marriages and PR related....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1490754

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1461316 "IMHO I think the 40K rule is a great one in the sense as it sets a bar for people to think about...and makes them ask the question "can I survive in Thailand"."

And the rest of your posts in that thread...

As for the rest of it, we'll just have to agree to disagree. While the UK and most other western nations are a easier on spousal visas, their approach to migration for others is just as hard/easy as Thailands is. Having jumped through the hoops for a non-EU'er to move to the UK, it is just as burecratic and time consuming as the Thai system is....

This is not a matter of personal opinions: whenever one starts to lay out the actual rules and conditions and compare them it quickly becomes clear where they are fairer, clearer, more evenly enforced, more stable and where they eventually provide more benefits and lead to a more safe and stable future.

The Thai media don't care about it as no one is publising it properly in any way.

Obviously in that case they may! But the BBC and the rest of the mainstream UK media haven't talked about it because OTHER foreign media were, they talked about it because it was an interesting piece of news for the general UK public opinion, always very sensitive to basic human rights issues!

And where are in Thailand the institutional bodies meant to deal with these kind of issues?? Where are the political personalities singly raising these issues and bringing them to attention??

If they did so in a concerted way, like the Australian govenrment/business groups did when the negotiation of the FTA was underway, they'd be seeing changes. Thailand and Australia agreed back then that spouses of work permit holders would be able to work in Thailand with greater ease for those entering Thailand under the provisions of the FTA. It was a big deal for the relatively small Australian community here, but they got it through.

A great example! If we reciprocated Thai immigration and property laws we would see a quick change of attitude!

I view the road to PR and citizenship here a bit differntly to others. I don't agree it as hard (at least for those who qualify) to get it here as it is anywhere else.

You are clearly not getting it...

There is always the perception of it being 'too hard', but I know too many people who have gotten PR and at least one who has gone through the citizenship hoop. This false perception of the relative difficulty as well as the lack of attractiveness of holding a Thai PP or Thai PR decreases the number people applying for it.

"lack of attractiveness"?!? I think practically all of the Thaivisa members (me included) would definitely want to have PR!

As for the citizenship, other very different issues come into play. For example, for moral reasons I wouldn't want to be a Thai. I can't be proud to be Thai hence I don't want to become one.

Anyway, just one question, you aren't related to BAF are you?

I am already the second poster on this thread you have asked this to. Do you do it to all of those who presses you with arguments you don't have an answer to?

He has been banned, come to terms with it...

As far as my comment about the work permit and leaving the country. Yes, it's possible

for that to cause a problem. But, a person could still have an "O" visa and stay with his wife while looking for work. Even if you did have to leave the country,

In the UK you wouldn't have to leave the country, EVER.

So, since in all of the possible cases covered by my "point 3" Thailand is in some cases EQUAL, in some cases WORSE and in NO cases better than the UK, why have you raised this issue at all?

That is also my point about blowing things out of porportion. I do not agree with this rule change! But, I don't think immigration is going to round up all of the dependents for deportation. There may not be any good long term solutions for some, but for almost everyone there are some short term solutions that don't require a family to be split apart.

I will leave those affected continue to comment on whether things are being blown out of proportion.

And I wonder if you will still think that things are being blown out of proportion if/when you will be affected by the next change...

capatong, you are right, it is more complex than i stated, but who is going to read it? I was trying to summarise the key issues succintly. But you are right: Education, income, age, UK sourced income and one or two other things in the consideration of the extension.

So you could have just as succintly summarized the issues saying that they have changed the conditions without grandfathering those already in the system (but allowing them "grace periods" and other options anyway).

Instead, you have written many things which simply are not true and which make things appear harsher and harder than they are.

Anyhoo, you are right that the joint house of lords/commons commission said what they said. The only thing has been that the home office has refused to budge on the issue. There is a test case going to the high court, as to whether the changes were in fact legal with no grandfathering, and I and many are waiting to see if it gets recinded.

And that's why you can't compare the situation in Thailand to the UK.

Where are the laws that the Thai govt broke by issuing and applying this new immi change "overnight" and with no grandfathering?

Where are the laws that the Thai govt broke by issuing and applying the new immi changes RE people married to Thai citizens and parents of Thai citizens last year?

Where are the govt high bodies making themselves involved in the matter and publicly and so strongly condemning those new rules and calling for their immediate revisitation?

Where was the attention of the mainstream Thai media last year? Where is today?

As for my views on the Thai immigration rules and these "latest" changes, the fairness of spouses not being able to stay here easily, I'll leave it to your excellent research skills to trawl back through old posts to garner my views.

Done: as for this latest changes it suffices to read this thread, as for the part highlighted in red, you fully support the current rules (yes, I have just "trawled back through old posts to garner your views"). Say it ain't so and I will provide quotes.

As for other countries, do they practice discrimantory immigration proceedures? Depends on your views.

Yes they all do to some extent.

The key points here being to some extent and the fact that many countries (mainly Western ones but also countries as "poor" or "poorer" than Thailand) do let many people immigrate even when it's totally against their interests (economic and others) when humanitarian and other basic human rights issues are involved.

Thailand does not and nobody in Thailand seem to care or fight it.

Point #3 by capoatung isn't quite accurate. You do not neccessarily have to leave the country just because your work permit is canceled. It depends on your visa and reason for extension of stay.

It was plainly obvious that the subject was people being in the country (the UK or Thailand) on a "working visa".

BTW, in the UK if you are not in the country solely thanks to you having a job there, you NEVER have to leave the country when you change/lose your job. What happens in Thailand when you are on a non-IMM O e.g. as a husband of a Thai citizen and your extension of stay is based on you having a job? Does the 7 days rule apply? Can you remain in Thailand looking for another job? For how long?

No comment on the rest of the stuff, At this point, appears to me that a number of people

have blown things out of porpotion

I don't think so, especially if you are one of those affected or worried that the same kind of sudden unfair treatment may soon befall on you...

and strayed way off topic.

The possible reasons for this change and the manner and conditions in which this change has been applied and (NOT) announced are OT now..?

easy.

If it's so easy why haven't you offered several examples of Western countries with very few legal foreigners (and with very little chance to ever get PR and/or citizenship), which change overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes and with no grandfathering provisos?

All you have offered so far is 1 example of just 1 country for just 1 of the situations listed (no grandfathering). Let's examine it.

The UK. Highly Skilled Migrant Permit (HSMP) applications were turned on their head late in 2006. Programe was shut down for a week, and re-introduced the next week with new requirements. Very little warning. HSMP are the UK versions of greencards.

First of all, HSMP are NOT the UK versions of US green cards. US green cards comprise many categories and HSMP is the equivalent of just ONE of those (EB2).

Qualify "Very little warning". AFAIK there have been many talks about that new points-based assessment (which is what they have finally done in NOV 2006 and which is most probably what you are referring to).

Previously, once you entered the UK, you only had to prove that you were economically active to extend your visa after the first year. You just had to show that you had a job and were contributing to the taxman. Then, they changed it so that you had to prove at least GBP30K salary to extend your visa. You also had to extend your visa at the three year mark again, under the new criteria.

AFAIK this is just plain FALSE. Income is just ONE of the categories which the points-based assessment consider.

Can you point out to me any source stating this new min GBP 30k salary?

This caught many many people out, especially those from the sub-continent who were working in skills shortage areas outside of london. Many had moved their families and spent their life savings moving to the UK. They were essentially told, that they probably would have to go home if they weren't earning enough in the eyes of the UK government. Back to india and paksistan you go, penniless.

HSMP differs from the UK work permit scheme as it does not require an employer to obtain a permit for the individual. It is also different from the existing UK business routes (e.g. the Innovators scheme or other business categories), in that it does not require a detailed business plan or investment in the UK.

All of the ones affected can switch to any other category of work/business visas and they do have "grace periods" to allow for the switch.

We just had an election, where we ran hard on beating up on 'migrants' you know.

How many (millions) LEGAL migrants has the UK and how many (tens of thousands) has Thailand?

How many of those LEGAL migrants in the UK are poorer than the average Brit and how many of those LEGAL migrants in Thailand are poorer than the average Thai?

I understand the UK has roughly the same size as Thailand and, contrary to Thailand, is a welfare state. A bit of perspective is always useful.

No grandfathering, but a bone was thrown so that they could transfer to work permits, which in the UK are highly restitive and tie you to an employer. Lose the workpermit, and you are out of the country. It also reset the immigration clock. Those on the verge of getting ILR under the old rules found themselves back at square one, having to wait another 5 years for another crack at the ILR.

Firstly, Highly Skilled Migrants are able to amalgamate continuous time spent in the UK as a work permit holder, Highly Skilled Migrant and/or an Innovator when applying for indefinite leave to remain as a Highly Skilled Migrant. Secondly, I think you are confusing the UK with Thailand where:

1. work permits ARE highly restrictive (in the UK you can do even another part time job besides the one you have the WP for, you are not limited to a specific place of work which must be stated on the WP and your WP and the accompayning leave to remain can be stipulated for as long as 5 years at a time)

2. WPs DO tie you to an employer (in the UK you can change job and not reapply for a new WP if it's for the same job and just another employer)

3. lose the work permit and you ARE out of the country in 7 days (in the UK you can, under certain conditions, stay for the remaining duration of your original leave to remain while reapplying for another WP)

. It also reset the immigration clock. Those on the verge of getting ILR under the old rules found themselves back at square one, having to wait another 5 years for another crack at the ILR.

AFAIK you don't have to stay in the UK for 5 years on the same original WP and besides, ILR (PR) is anyway granted after 10 years as a legal resident (with or without WP, combining time working and not working etc) or even after 14 years as a combination of ILLEGAL and legal residency in the United Kingdom!

----------

Now, all that said (which shows how the situation in the UK is all but the same as that in Thailand): that NOV 2006 change IS unfair despite the many concessions for those already in the system.

A grand total of about 49,000 people have used the HSMP and a small fraction of those are at risk of being forced to go back home but notwithstanding all of this you can easily find the description of their plight in the mainstream UK media starting with the BBC and...

...The joint Commons and Lords Human Rights Committee said changes last year to the Highly Skilled Migrants Programme breached human rights: "This was a clear breach of the right to respect for home and family life contained in Article 8 of European Convention of Human Rights." And the report continued: "The changes to the rules are so clearly incompatible with Article 8, and so contrary to basic notions of fairness, that the case for immediately revisiting the changes to the rules in Parliament is in our view overwhelming."

Exactly like now in Thailand, right?

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

My best answer at this point - about the same.

So how come there are MILLIONS of foreigners legally living and working in Western countries the same size as Thailand and getting PR and citizenship while the numbers in Thailand are, at best, laughable (just like the probability of ever getting PR and citizenship)?

If those countries had the same xenophobic immigration laws as Thailand, as you claim, that would be legally IMPOSSIBLE.

You better get a clue about Western and Thai immigration laws before replying on matters concerning immigration laws.

Whatever the outcome this is no excuse to call all Thais xenophobic or racist which some posters have done.

In a democracy the laws of a country are supposed to mirror the views of the majority of its citizens so while ALL is certainly the wrong word, MOST is totally appropriate.

(I know Thailand isn't a democracy since about a year but it has been sold as one for the last 10 years...)

As to which countries have racist immigration laws, the answer is just about every country.

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

P.S. still waiting for the answers to:

1. Whose countries are, without any warning, changing (worsening) overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes? Westerners' or Thais'?

2. Whose countries are worsening their immigration laws without grandfathering provisos? Westerners' or Thais'?

When labour is cheap (for every business) in any given market, it can be really hard for SME companies to make the decision to invest big money in technology that will maybe allow them to replace five jobs with one. Its only when labour becomes expensive that the decision is reached more easily.

A personal example:

I employ about five staff to router shapes out of board products. This costs me about 6000B per week in wages. If I were to invest 6,000,000 Baht in a CNC machining centre that same productivity and output could be achieved with about one staff working a three day week - call it 1000B in wages.

A direct saving of 5,000B per week (if I paid cash for the machine & not taking into any account for depreciation or maintenance or utilities.)

Thats more than one thousand weeks to pay off the machine.

Now multiply the labour cost by a factor of ten & the idea becomes viable. Two years to pay it off.

Very simple example as to why cheap labour forces don't improve productivity.

Thailand has been losing its competitiveness in the regional pool of cheap labour countries since many years already and this ILO report highlights how the shift towards higher value added manufacturing and higher productivity has NOT been happening.

If you are here for the cheap labour I think you are, NOW, in the wrong country. Like many other foreign small enterprises which are trying to live off the cost of labour differential with the countries they export/sell to, you are here (assuming you are one of these) most probably because you came when Thailand WAS a good choice RE cheap labour or because you are motivated by something other than business reasons (for example, family, "lifestyle" etc).

The reasons for this are, I believe, business laws (actual and announced), the business climate (the previous reason + the socio-political environment in which those matured), the lack of real investment in infrastructure and the lack of improvement in education of the work force.

This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais,

Whose countries have racist, xenophobic immigration laws? Whose countries are, without any warning, changing (worsening) overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes? Whose countries are worsening their immigration laws without grandfathering provisos?

Farangs' or Thais' ?

So, there is a reason for multiplying the average monthly wage for the whole of the population including newborns and 99 yos on their deathbeds yet you don't seem to be able to tell us what it is..!

As I am nothing if not a patient and penitent man, I will explain it yet a different way again:

It's important to understand that the monthly income per average Thai and the monthly income per average Thai wage-earner are two different numbers; the terms are not interchangeable.

The average monthly income per household was 12,167 THB. Divide that by the average household size of 3.6 (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included) and we find that the average Thai (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included) has a monthly income of 3,380 THB. Multiply that by Thailand's population (60,606,947) and you get 204,851,480,860 THB per month. Divide that by the work force (which you reported as 32,000,000) and increase it by the inflation rates of 2.10%, 1.60%, 0.60%, 1.80%, 2.80%, 4.50%, and 5.10%. The result is a monthly income per average Thai wage-earner of 7,678 THB. Increased productivity (such as it is) could account for the difference between that and your revered BOT number. I use higher average inflation rates for my forecasts, which is why I would expect to see higher monthly income.

If you say the average Thai earns 7k THB, one should multiply that by the population (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included). If you say the average Thai worker earns 7K, one should multiply that by the workforce.

I hope this clears it up for you.

You are "clearing it up for me"?!?

My math has always been (actually my first calculation has been done wrongly assuming 20,000,000 workers instead of 32,000,000 but the concept is the same: I have always computed workers):

year 2000: 6,083 average monthly wage x the 32,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 2,335,872,000,000 THB

year 2007: 7,700 average monthly wage x the 36,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 3,326,400,000,000 THB

So I know what average wage means.

Have you already forgotten that it was you to come up with 5,821,200,000,000 THB reached by multiplying the Thais' average wage of 7,700 THB/month (source: the BOT) x 63 million Thais?!?

A lot of folks like to have a safe place where they can hang out and order in when they roll out the tanks from time to time.

All fun aside full, fully armed, British army formations were deployed in central London (in the back streets) to back up the police under the poll tax riots (under Thatcher), no superiority from the UK on this issue.

you want the real reason for Thailands sluggish economic performance, here it is...

In "The Thai economy is in crisis" thread, weren't you advocating that the closures, the sluggishness and the general bad news there being pointed out were because Thailand was at a necessary passage point in moving up the value added chain and so there wasn't any real crisis?

Now you seem to be saying exactly the opposite: Thailand's economic woes are because it is in fact NOT moving up the value added chain (and since the gap is widening I guess we can also sort of talk about a "crisis", can't we?).

Unfortunately, for those of us that enjoy and respect Thailand, the number of tourist arrivals will rise. It's a shame really, but what can you do. Live and let live.

I wish there were MUCH LESS tourists coming here too but if your reasons are because you think they are spoiling the environment, I think you have never been in parks, beaches and other public open areas where the Thais and almost no one else go...

You shouldn't comment sarcastically on any "easy math" having just multiplied the average monthly wage for the whole of the population including newborns and 99 yos on their deathbeds

There is a reason why this must be done. The clue is in the NOST spreadsheet. It's easy to make jokes when one doesn't understand things, but do try as it may unlock something else for you.

So, there is a reason for multiplying the average monthly wage for the whole of the population including newborns and 99 yos on their deathbeds yet you don't seem to be able to tell us what it is..!

We were both wrong.

I did indeed make a mistake, but it's not what you think…

My mistake was getting involved with the 7k number; it's superfluous. Multiply the numbers for the kingdom as outlined above, and divide by the wage earners. Interesting, no? And you didn't even have to fudge anything! Even so, the number really doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.

WHICH number by HOW MANY wage earners?!?

I have done the math for both sets of numbers: the ones taken from your own sacred source and the current numbers from the Bank of Thailand and they are absolutely consistent (accounting for the then economy and today's, of course).

Here they are, again:

year 2000: 6,083 average monthly wage x the 32,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 2,335,872,000,000 THB

year 2007: 7,700 average monthly wage x the 36,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 3,326,400,000,000 THB

point out exactly where are the mistakes you are talking about!

I believe I read somewhere that tourism accounted for about 6% of Thailand's GDP. I believe we'll find that farangs living in LOS contribute a fraction of that. It may be a big number when one looks at it on its own, but it's just one slice of a much bigger pie.

In fact, Western tourists and Western "residents" (to avoid confusion better say "long stayers") BOTH make significant contribution to the Thai economy.

If we add other rich Asian tourists and "long stayers", I think Thailand simply can't do without these two combined sources of income.

Well, no... it can obviously... if downsizing to the Philippines', Cambodia's and Laos' league is their goal.

Even considering those figures the contribution is quite high but the real crux of the matter is that we don't know who they classed as residents (OR DO YOU?)

Actually, I think I do.

Then do tell:

Permanent Residence holders?

1 year extension of stay permits? For which categories of non-IMMs? All categories?

90 days non-IMMs? Which ones? All categories?

Visa runners?

Now, where can we find the total number of work permits issued to Westerners and other rich Asians last year? The total number of 1 year extension of stay permits issued? The total number of non-IMMs?

They have those numbers, why don't they publish them?

Maybe it's face issue.

Because they are too few or too many??

Your reasoning here seems to be suggesting you think it's the former...

Excuse me, you blindly believe much more suspect 10yo numbers from some Thai authority but you "suspect" very recent numbers by the Bank of Thailand?!?

And where does this 8700 come from??

Exactly… Perhaps my comments below will explain things a little.

If the Bank of Thailand isn't to be trusted on economic matters why should whichever Thai authority conducted this 8 years old census when you can't even know who they defined as "residents"??

And why should we prefer 7 years old data to current official data??

Ignoring borrowings and other incomes, the math you should be doing is 7,700 average monthly wage x the 20,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 1,848,000,000,000 THB.

You have multiplied the average wage for all of the 62 million Thais!

Exactly… A quick look at the link to the Thai statistics office I provided in a previous post will show that income data seems to be collected on a per household basis, and then divided by the number of average household members to come up with an average income per person. Do the math yourself; it's easy.

I used the other poster's numbers to make him feel better, but have no reason to believe they are any more accurate.

You shouldn't comment sarcastically on any "easy math" having just multiplied the average monthly wage for the whole of the population including newborns and 99 yos on their deathbeds...

That said, on table 11.1 household monthly incomes range from 7,853 THB for the Northeastern Region to 24,690 for Greater Bangkok. The Central Region (where Bangkok is) is 13.301 and the other 2 regions are 8649 and 11407. The national average is 12,167 THB.

Assuming kids don't work (I hope you agree on this one but at this point am not so sure) splitting the household income in half (mom and pop) we have 6,083 THB which is entirely consistent with "my" (BOT's, actually) number of 7,700 since your data is 7 years old and mine is of 2007...

Got it? It's easy...

I do not know how many actual wage earners are in Thailand, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it's higher than the 30% percent or so that you alluded to in your post. Wikipedia (and who knows where that data came from) lists the Thai age structure as 22% 0-14 years of age, 70% 15-64 years of age, and 8% 65 years and over. That makes a little more sense to me.

We were both wrong.

I went with otton's figure and was thrown off myself by the combination 12,000,000/60% workforce in agriculture/20,000,000 total. Most probably his 12,000,000 are people working NOW in agriculture and 55-60% is the THEN percentage not today's so combining the two I came to the wrong 20,000,000.

Thailand's total labour force was 33,000,000 (Table1.16 of your own source) in 2000 and is around 36,000,000 today. So about 50% of the total population (now and then).

Let's redo the math together, then: 7,700 average monthly wage x the 36,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 3,326,400,000,000 THB in 2007 and 6,083 average monthly wage x the 32,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 2,335,872,000,000 THB in 2000.

Even doubling things doesn't change it all that much; the Americans rise to 2%, the Brits to 4%, the Germans to 1%, and so on… It doesn't seem to be an earth shattering change considering the big picture. But that's just my opinion.

Even considering those figures the contribution is quite high but the real crux of the matter is that we don't know who they classed as residents (OR DO YOU?) and there are many more people living full time or spending very long period of times in LOS whichever visa they are on (mostly on visa runs but also the many categories of 90 days non-IMM and 1 year extensions, who says if both, none or just the 1 year extensions were considered??).

Just consider how many Westerners living in LOS "as residents" Thailand's border passes are still seeing daily on a visa run...

Now, where can we find the total number of work permits issued to Westerners and other rich Asians last year? The total number of 1 year extension of stay permits issued? The total number of non-IMMs?

They have those numbers, why don't they publish them?

For example, isn't the total number of JUST Western English teachers HIGHER than the total of Western "residents" quoted in your census?!?

As to the average wage of 8,700 baht or 7,700 baht. I think that if you took out the top 10% you will have an average of minimum wage. What did the 5,000 garment factory workers that just lost their job get paid ? Most of the jobs are these types. About 200 baht a day I would guess. Also don't forget that apprx 10% make less than 922 baht per month. The top 5% or 10% bring the average up quite a bit and much of their money is not spent. It is socked away in the bank or overseas investments.

Yes wolfmanjack, anybody who knows anything about Thailand knows that very well. MANY Thais work in the manifacture and (mostly) agriculture sectors even below the minimum wages which can be as low as 4000-4500 baht/month (it varies with the province).

But I think it's best to keep it as simple as possible when there are so many people around refusing to see even the very obvious.

Take this as an example, the common accepted Thaivisa knowledge is that the "farangs" (residents/tourists/whatever) are very unimportant for the Thai economy (it seems so cool to say so), never mind that the cold hard numbers say exactly the opposite...

Personally, I think the BOT number is suspect and would be more comfortable with something closer to 8,700 THB,

Excuse me, you blindly believe much more suspect 10yo numbers from some Thai authority but you "suspect" very recent numbers by the Bank of Thailand?!?

And where does this 8700 come from??

but let's go with your number. So what you're saying is that 63 million Thais are spending about 5,821,200,000,000,

Ignoring borrowings and other incomes, the math you should be doing is 7,700 average monthly wage x the 20,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 1,848,000,000,000 THB.

You have multiplied the average wage for all of the 62 million Thais!

compared to the tourists' 509,471,621,720, and the resident aliens' between 50,000,000,000 and 159,040,176,515. Even using the larger number for the resident aliens (which I believe is a bit over the top for reasons pointed out in a previous post), it's only 2.7% of the Thai spending; hardly a point that should be heralded from every mountain top far and wide.

I don't know which categories of non-IMM visas (for example, were ED counted? Missionary? 90 days non-IMM?) and/or PR have they included in the census but they have surely NOT included visa runners as residents so you can, at the very least, safely DOUBLE (I would think quadruple is much more like it but OK...) the number of "residents" (people living here full time although not formally "residents").

Redo the math and tell us again that's "hardly a point that should be heralded from every mountain top far and wide".

P.S. Nice how you have avoided otton's comparison with the value of the whole agricultural sector (where 60% of the Thai workforce is employed, 12,000,000 Thais).

2 Separate bank accounts with 1.6m Baht between the pair of them. It seems this is more about tying more of a farang's dosh up. It's do-able if you have the dosh, and can afford losing that much interest a year.

AND both of you are older than 50...

CORRECT , where the rest of the rubbish quote by others eg : ( 11k ???? ) comes from is anys guess ,

ps , robsamui min wages ARE Gazetted by province .

Hi Mid, according to the latest (Q1 2007) official realeased numbers form the Bank of Thailand, the AVERAGE Thai wage is 7700 Baht/month.

Min daily wages as you correctly say vary from province to province and the absolute legal minimum is about half the quoted average.

As always, most of the folks commenting on the economic realities of Thais' everyday life have absolutely no clue...

I have just read a thread where an idiot was quoted proposing tripling Pattaya bahtbus fares to help the "poor" drivers making a living

P.S. Just a reminder, let's all always keep these figures well in mind also when discussing about immi laws, visa regs, "quality tourists" etc

Forgetting for a moment that there are very few condos in Isaan (but in the major provincial cities they can be found, although few and low rises only), are foreigners allowed to own condos in Isaan?

AFAIK they are allowed to buy up to 49% of condos in few designated areas (can't remember where: Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and ... ?).

Yep, sure thing. The amount is 20K for over 50 people, and 50K for under 50 years (that was also reduced from 75K). Thats a one time deposit good for life, but you do need to pay an annual fee to stay in the program.

You are finding old info because this change is recent. You can also stay there for years on a tourist visa, totally legally and without the silly stigma attached to visa runners in Thailand. Used to be you had to fly out every 12 months and then back in. Recently, that was liberalized also so you can stay as long as 16 to 24 months without a visa run (but you need many in country extensions).

http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=178〈=1

Hi, just a quick post (haven't checked the link, just going from memory from what some friends living in the PH recently told me) with a couple of minor corrections: the deposit can be used to buy condos, lease houses and even pay for golf courses (!) and the annual (small) fee is due only if you use the deposit.

RE tourist visas, you have to extend them just every two months, so 12 extensions for two years (they cost 1300 Baht).

<br />This pap says as much about the abysmal state of affairs at the Bangkok Post these days as anything else. Do they want rid of all their falang readers?

They have many Thai readers

<br />The fact that there are even different countries is wrong already.

So true

I too was told many times, leave and enter Thailand with his Thai passport and enter and leave the UK with his British passport. I was told never to show both passports either to an airline or immigration.

Thai friends I know have been told the same, never a problem so far.

Todays backpackers are tomorrow's quality tourists?

Maybe but I like to keep well away from KaoSanRoad... They don't do much good to promote a good image of us farangs amongst the Thais.