otton

This place is truly scary. It does not seem to matter, if history is any indication, whether you are lawfully wed to a person you love, set up a family residence, put your kids through school and university, help the extended family, break no laws, always report on time and professionally, and bring in millions of hard earned baht which get spent directly into the economy at all levels - from local village to the national, if the powers that be decide too bad for you, they seem to have no problem F&^$ing your life over if it suits a whim somewhere.

Do most agree?

Clued up old-hands of course agree thus most here on ThaiVisa do not.

This country, this people and this culture are not to be taken seriously.

i doubt that this will have no impact on the lack of bias on this forum no matter how good the intentions are.

Had to come out of my more or less self imposed exile for this one... No worries, this 1 post only

Point. Match.

Actually the question was academic.

I knew I would be insulted and criticized by members without them being chastised.

I was just curious to see to what degree...

Well, since you have been around Thai message boards (this one, at least) for a while already, you should have realized that there are 2 fundamental differences between the Thai realists and the Thai apologists: most of the latter have a definite tendency to try to SILENCE the former (and they mostly succeed in that on many of these boards, luckily there still is the real life ) and a nasty attitude to attack the messenger and not the message. That alone says to any neutral honest intelligent observer all it needs to be said (I don't dare to say it anymore)...

How prevalent is it today?

And you're asking this on... Thaivisa!

Next try to make an educated post. On second thought, please don't - I might feel obligated to respond to your nonsense.

OK, I won't.

There's a big big difference with Australia. You can get an ETA online, valid for 90 days, within a minute or so.

Haven't you read BAF's much more detailed reply?

Samran has never followed up on this nor all the rest of the replies he got to his "arguments".

After reading this thread, I'm confused. Of the posters that are bashing Thailand's visa and citizenship laws, how many actually want to become a Thai citizen??? Why were you denied?

Yes you are confused indeed.

1. This thread is much more about PR (and, maybe, property ownership rights and the right to work any job) than citizenship

2. WHO has been denied WHAT?!?

Thailand is extremely accommodating to the bulk of farangs that choose to visit intermittently and stay for 30 to 90 days.

Of course, it's all for their gain.

With very little work and a little money, it is easy to get a one year visa.

Letting aside that for most people is all but "very little work and a little money", 1 year extensions are the maximum that the vast majority of people can ever hope to get in Thailand.

For those that are married to Thais, in most cases, getting a visa for your partner to visit or live in your country isn't nearly as simple.

If you are trying to get her a tourist visa is of course not, since she is NOT a tourist... It's in the very first post of this thread, sure you have read it?

Before posters chime in how their wife got a visa upon arrival and became a citizen, I know from personal experience it can be done, but it wasn't a simple process.

HEEELLOOO?!? In Thailand in most cases IT CANNOT BE DONE AT ALL!! It's not a question of "simple" or "difficult"!

What I'm hearing from posters is that if you are married to a Thai or serious about living in Thailand, citizenship should be a right.

Who cares about citizenship? For moral reasons, I wouldn't want to be a Thai. I can't be proud to be Thai hence I don't want to become one.

What I want and what I think is only fair for me to be granted to (since my homecountry does to Thais and since I, and not only I, deem it to be a basic human right) is Permanent Residence and at least some minimal property ownership right.

It is beneath you to have to jump through hoops to make this a reality.

What about starting to make the Thais jump through some hoops too?

Again, I don't understand the desire to become a Thai citizen, but I assume there is a benefit for certain individuals.

I always thought Thai citizenship was a possibility for some, just like it is in most other countries. What are the options available to farangs in regards to Thai citizenship?

If it is nearly impossible to become a Thai citizenship, I appologize for my lack of knowledge.

First of all, you should (re?)read the whole thread...

For Tourists / folk walking around with a £ note stuck to their forehead (AKA Mr / Mrs Farang) Thailand is 1 million percent safer.

Yes Thailand is safer but you may want to take a look at crime stats before saying it's 1 million percent safer (and yes I know you aren't speaking literally).

The crime level (real and perceived) is what is putting off a lot of people from many places in South America and other SE Asian countries which are, TODAY, overall much better and FRIENDLIER than Thailand...

The PI are a good example: crime and less developed infrastructure are what is preventing it from stealing from Thailand all of the people sick of Thailand's xenophobic immi laws and increasing unfriendliness towards the "farang".

The latest "No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit" imbroglio nicely proves the OP's point that 1 year extensions are no base on which build one's future (let alone one's family's future) and also nicely shows how stupid the suggestions given by many here to go the trick and loopholes route (ED visas, "fake" embassy certifications, 90 days non-IMMs) really were...

In Thailand, all it takes to blow one's (and one's family's) life away is an unexpected and unannounced overnight change of immigration laws which are enforced immediately (even before their publication in the official gazette) and which contain no grandfathering provisos.

This is already the second time it happens in less than a year. Somebody will never learn and somebody else is just now starting to wake up and smell the somtam...

PH policy towards immigration reminds me of a going out of business sale. Bargin basment prices...roll up, roll up.

I guess one could say exactly the same for all the rest of the 3rd world countries, like Thailand, which put such a big public accent on ever trying to increase tourist numbers and which have "retirement visas" for foreign pensioners (a thing almost unheard of in rich developed countries)...

Well originally I wasn't asking anything. Just stated the facts.

I'm not sure why you quoted me or what are you saying. Nobody's stopping you. So let me hear it, what are you talking about?

Have you read and understood samran's (a mod) last post?

I don't particularly wish to get banned, like the OP of the linked thread, for "spouting off [uSEFUL, PERTINENT, UNREFUTABLE, NON-DISPROVED] informations which would put Wiki to shame" so that's the last from me on this thread.

I still don't get you. What are you saying?

As you can see you and the others are allowed to ask here but I am not allowed to reply (that's why I have just been posting the link to the pertinent thread, so far).

So all I can say is: read the whole thread and post there, I will reply there (if I can).

Hey guys;

Is it possible to apply for PR after having lived in Thailand for 5 years on tourist visas ? Or does only non-immigrant ones count ?Thx

It's not possible and many non-IMMs DO NOT count as well.

For example, even if you are living in Thailand supporting your Thai wife and your Thai children you won't be granted PR if your income comes from outside Thailand.

In practice, if it's too low (by "too low" they mean of course less than 10-15 times the average Thai income...) your application will most likely be rejected even if you have been working IN Thailand (which is the most important requirement).

That's an interesting thread but I don't quite get your point, answers?

Could you be more specific. I wrote in the content of tourist visas, not marriage visas, which are of course easily obtainable in most cases as logic dictates.

Sorry? In the very first post of the thread (and in several others later in the thread) the banned OP writes about Tourist Visas not "marriage visas":

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: "how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that"?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

I really don’t understand the paranoia of posting links on this forum so I refrain from doing so, but the information you seek can easily be found on the website of the National Statistical Office, Ministry Of Information and Communication Technology, Thailand. It *really* is easy, I promise.

Without regard to as far as you know, the numbers do indeed refer to the resident aliens in Thailand, not just Greater Bangkok.

And your numbers seem a bit off; the census reports: 217,135 Chinese, 2,650 Japanese, 6,258 Indians, 2,355 Americans, 1,764 UK, 1,292 Germany, no listed Taiwanese, 553 Koreans, no listed, and so on... Google is a wonderful thing.

Additionally, you're off on your assertion of the vast majority of the females being Chinese, Indian and Malaysians, but you'll find that out when you do the research.

Those numbers are from 10 years ago and it would be most interesting to see what do they mean by "residents". All of the various non-IMM visas + the PR holders? If that's the case that would leave out the huge mass of people who have "traditionally" been living in Thailand full time on back-to-back visa runs.

Just to show you what 10 years mean, there is an estimated number of 1.5/2 million migrant workers in Thailand (around 80% from Burma, the rest mainly from Laos and Cambodia) from its poor neighbouring countries and of those, less than half a million is legal (ie they hold work permits), 10 years ago they were one fourth.

According to the data from Thailand’s National Statistics Office, the average monthly income for the entire kingdom per household (3.6 people) was 12,167 THB. While it’s true that if you divide my reported 24k THB or so by the average household size of 3.6 people, you may get something around 7K, I find it difficult to believe that all 3.6 members of the average Greater Bangkok household would be wage earners. Thus, I should think the average wage per wage earner is higher.

Yes, undoubtedly higher than the national average in Greater Bangkok, so what? The point is that the average Thai is earning 7700 Baht a month (Q1 2007 BOT fugures, not 10 years ago) so however much you are trying to downplay the contribution of Western and other rich Asian residents (whichever their visa status) each of them is every month injecting into the Thai economy several times the average Thai's monthly wage in valuable FOREX.

Sex tourists don’t stay at hotels, eat at restaurants, or visit any attractions? Wow!! That’s hard to believe!!

No, they do but sex tourists spend MOST of their money on the girls (even after they leave Thailand...) and in the bars and that's why MOST of what they spend (and their total contribution to the Thai economy) doesn't end up in those useless TAT stats...

I really do understand your argument, but all I can say is of the expats I know in LOS, owning a condo or house+car+motorbike is not typical

I see you have not offered an estimate here, but you do in another post. May I bring to your and everyone's attention the fact that 10 years ago your low-end estimate would have been equal to roughly the value of the whole agricultural sector (which employed almost 60% of the workforce)?

You make a blanket statement satating "Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs"

I answer with a very reasonable FACT that even the most basic of entry rights for tourist is so absolutely far removed from your statement that "Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs"

Entry rights for tourists (and "retirement visa") are just about the ONLY things which we are not denied in Thailand (because they benefit Thailand FAR MORE than they benefit us) so they are the 2 things that my reply CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY excludes.

That link to that thread was meant to show you WHY Thais don't get tourist visas so easily (because they are, in the majority of the cases, NOT tourists) and what we grant them (which in the majority of the cases DON'T benefit our homecountries but are a NET BURDEN) and they don't grant us.

Look at what happened in New Zealand when they have been granting, for a while, easy TVs to Thais. They became the WORST overstayers of them all (with all of them ending up illegally working, particularly in the local sex industry) and immi regs had to be quickly changed back to match those of the rest of the richer than Thailand countries...

You reply with another thread which tries to give some legitimacy to why thai's have to go through this visa process without actually answering your blatantly STUPID remark that "Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs"

And you reply in that thread with a blatantly STUPID remark about the size of the waiting room at the Thai embassy in Rome.

Your post there starts with: "BLAH BLAH BLAH....". It says it all.

I don't fully agree with you that the right comparison is like with like since the Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs.

Do you mean like how any westerner can come to thailand and recieve a entry on arrival stamp without any background check, due process or fee?

Or do you mean like how if a Thai wishes to visit a western country they will have to apply for a visa, in a lot of cases be scrutinised and even humiliated by western embassy staff(although these are often Thai staff!). For most there will be a large fee up to thousands of baht, quite often nessecitating overnight or multiple night stays in BKK thus adding to costs. For many who have had long and solid marrages to a westener, even bearing their children who become western citizens also, they will still have to go through this whole visa process when visiting that western country. Is this waht you mean when you say that "Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs"?

I agree that it has been a unsettling time, with regards to residency and visa issues, for those of us wish to make Thailand our home, but PLEASE do not always be so quick to assume that Thai's are always treated so much better in our reciprical countries. Just remember that any Thai, who has a passport and enough money for a plane ticket, can't just hop on a plane and on arrival will be greeted with a smile and a entry on arrival stamp in their passport.

I hope that the future will be brighter for long term "commited to Thailand" foriegners and I also hope that one day my wife can travel freely throughout the world alongside her husband and HER children.

Here is your answer: www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

The most recent data I could find (fiscal year 1999) shows 94,616 female and 171,233 male resident aliens living in Thailand. Of the preceding 5 or so years, the number was rather flat; no big trend up or down. I was surprised to see males outnumber females at only 2 to 1; I must travel with the wrong crowd. US and Japanese males outnumber US and Japanese females at over 3 to 1.

[...]

Here’s something else to chew on; of the 265,849 resident aliens living in Thailand, 81.86% are from China, with only 2.05% from the UK, 0.89% from the US, and 0.49% from Germany.

Sources?

AFAIK those numbers refer to Bangkok ONLY not to the whole of Thailand.

250,000 Chinese, 30,000 Japanese, 100,000 Indians, 6,000 Americans, 45,000 Europeans, 15,000 Taiwanese, 7,000 South Koreans, 6,000 Nigerians, 8,000 people of Arabic speaking countries, 20,000 Malaysians, and 4,000 Singaporeans.

The vast majority of the females are Chinese, Indian and Malaysians.

And while we're quoting statistics; the average monthly income in Greater Bangkok per household (3.2 persons) is 24,690 THB as of the year 2000.

And the average monthly income for the whole of Thailand (Greater Bangkok included) is still the 7700 Baht I mentioned several times already...

And the data is from the latest Bank Of Thailand release, Q1 2007.

My recollection is that according to TAT, international tourists spend on average about 3,500 THB per day. There must be quite a few doing it on the cheap as most people I know spend considerably more.

The usual old considerations are as true as always: the TAT estimates are based on traceable spendings, ie hotels, restaurants in the tourist areas, tourists attractions etc and from the data the tourists agencies themselves feed the TAT with.

MOST of the typical Western and other rich Asian tourists's spending doesn't end up in those stats. ALMOST ALL of the typical sex tourists' spending doesn't up in those stats as well.

I couldn’t find any statistics on how much resident aliens spend each month, but I think this forum speaks for itself; there are a few posters with lofty budgets of 100k THB per month (3,226 THB per day), but most seem to wonder how they are going to spend 65k THB per month (2,096 THB per day), grouse about why should they have to bring in so much money when the cost of living is so cheap, or as a recent post in this thread mentioned a farang and his Thai wife figuring out how they’re going to spend only 40k THB per month (1,290 THB per day).

Do a simple back of the envelope calculation of JUST the typical setup costs of most of the long staying folks here (condo or house+car+motorbike) and multiply for JUST their number in Bangkok (which is very likely to be far less than the total in all the rest of the country) and you will be stunned... And then consider on average how many Thai citizens are they most probably supporting outright and how many are they periodically "helping out" and NOW add their own living cost (just think about the cost of the red tape)...

Done? What are your estimates?

Now, remember once again that the average Thai monthly income is, TODAY, 7,700 Baht, GBP 116, EUR 170, USD 233.

Chew on this.

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

Go get your answer here: www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

Ok, I didn't actually read all 31 pages so this has probably been said before:

It's highly ironic, in a smirky kind of way, that this ONLY affects the 'quality' type of retirees that we always assumed were the non-sexpat drunk loser types. Well guess what, it's now getting MORE difficult for respectable married couples to retire in Thailand, however Andy the Barfly with his pile of Chang is still happy as a clam.

Yes, this other justification for all of the recent and less recent changes of the immi regs has always been laughable.

Firstly, because it has just been a GENERAL worsening of the situation. Which categories have seen a relaxation and an easing of the rules applying to them?

Secondly, the most affected are most often than not the so called "quality ones" (they have clearly said that "quality" equals "wealth" much more than "restrained sexual life")! People who come here to GIVE (SPEND and INVEST) and not to TAKE (earning a living here)...

As for the sex-tourists/sex-pats, you have NO REAL WAY of separating them from the rest since they are in all the income brackets and work in all types of jobs as well (I guess they are just "normal" folks after all...).

That is very doubtful. I assume the reason for that is the fear that younger "retirees" would work illegally. Most countries in the world that have retirement visas also have age requirements. Thats logical too, because most require pensions, and most people with pensions don't get them until an older age. Thailand isn't actually very different than many other countries in this program, excepting not offering long term security, and offering the option to those without pension (more common for countries to offer an investment income option if they offer it at all).

Than tell me what is it that makes them sure than under 50 MARRIED folks aren't working illegally!

If they were ANY serious about fighting illegal workers (and believe me they have no particular reason to be: the taxes not paid would be easily recouped by the umpteenth hike in visa/extension fees and the work done, for example by illegal working English teachers, is a great net benefit for Thailand as a whole and is a bargain compared to paying them "legal" wages) they would crack down hard on the EMPLOYERS. At the moment Thai employers don't even get as much as a slap on the wrist...

And since they have no qualms about employing draconian measures, what about banning forever people caught working illegally? That would be much less draconian than effectively "banning" everyone under 50 anyway...

P.S. Just to clarify, they have been toughening the requirements (or outright cancelling the long stay possibility) for ALL across the board, what I meant to say is that folks not related to Thai citizens are much easier targets and have suffered (and are going to suffer) the most.

Excuse me, but with this new act, they are now failing to recognize any special benefits for married retirees. So now everyone on a retirement visa is to be treated the same. As single individuals to sink or swim on their own applications. So if you believe that, you would more accurately say tougher for ALL retirees.

What they have really just done is to equate retiress married to foreigners to single retirees.

Since they have effectively canceled ANY real long term visa for under 50 single guys (they are now just left with tricks and loopholes like ED visas, back-t-back TVs etc) there is the real possibility that the next step will be toughening the requirements for retirees not married to Thais...

After all, if they were just after the money they wouldn't be trying so "desperately" to keep out the biggest spenders of them all, wealthy single under 50 foreigners nor would they be trying to keep out under 50 foreigners supporting Thai spouses and Thai children and wealthy enough to not need to work...

Otton - I think many of the things you mention, (such as knowledge of Thai language/culture) will come

In other words, there is NOTHING in the current immigration laws and regulations really supporting your theory.

As things stand now, the least (apparent) "Thaisanized" and "Thaisanizable" foreigners, old single retirees, have the easiest time of them all.

The citizenship requirements were eased only this week, as reported on this forum.

Not really, they have shortened the wait and that's all. If they follow it through, there will be a short lived peak of applications and then they will revert back more or less to their previous pace.

PR requirements are the real show stopper and PR is still a prerequisite for citizenship and it's still as tough to get as ever.

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

And that's something we agree on...