JungleJim

It would be more effective for the Public Health Ministry to close down all the tatoo shops on health grounds as they are high risk places for catching HIV. How can customers be sure they don't re-use the needles to save a few baht?

Have you seen how much tattoos cost here. You'd have to be one mercenary inkster to skimp on something so basic.

Regarding the "crackdown", can't help but think there are slightly more pressing issues to focus on. Another total joke. It's not like Phuket is a hub of traditional Thai values.

Must admit to being quite suspicious as to why so many people that clearly are not living very Buddhist or religious lives, feel the need to get these Tatt's.

My friend Dave has a tattoo on his foot which reads "dave" (in the drunken scrawl of the man himself). As daft as that clearly is, I'd hazard a guess it has more meaning to him now (even 20 years later) than half the trendies who slap a huge Buddha on their bodies. It doesn't make you look deep, in fact it does the complete opposite. To me it's rarely anything more than the commercialisation of Buddhism, which seems a shallow exchange for both artist and customer. Sorry to the small minority of you who don't fall into this category, and for those that do, if you have to be cool at least get a tattoo that has some/any kind of meaning to you. I for one would have a lot more respect for you

Thailand is a police state. In a police state there is always a Buffoon knowing what's best for you, the country or the religion. Don't worry it is just another reason to vote for a party that does not use laws to their own advantage.

...like who exactly. Not sure that the history of politics anywhere, let alone Thailand, has thrown up to many parties that don't abuse the legal system in one way or another.

18 deaths worldwide on 6.000.000.000 people.... time to start to panic...

100.000 people per day die in the world from hunger....

A sobering thought!!! but this figure does seem rather high as that is 1 million deaths from a single cause in 10 days. I know that Africa is suffering terribly on account of extreme poverty and from encountering severe droughts year in, year out, but surely there cannot be this amount of people dying of starvation every day!! can there?? That's horific and unbelievable if true and there is something terribly wrong in our world!!

Sadly, even the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, which monitors nutritional info, puts the number of undernourished people worldwide at just shy of 1 billion with over half coming from Asia and Pacific countries. I've seen other stats that put it much higher. (http://www.fao.org/publications/sofi/en/).

With numbers like that I would speculate that 100,000 per day is surprisingly low. If we take the lower UN figure it means that only 3.5% of these people have to die to reach a figure of 100,000 per day.

The main cause of hunger = poverty. Harmful economic systems are the principal cause of poverty and hunger all over the world.

Yes Steve. There is something terribly wrong with the world when the corporate interests involved in "free (hahahaha) market capitalism" or as most of the world calls it, daylight robbery, trump the nutritional needs of of over 1 billion people. Very ####ing wrong.

Frankly my dear, who gives a toss.

Can't believe people who have lived here more than a few months are wasting time expressing their shock and outrage at his oft told tale. Heard it all before and no doubt will be reading of a similar incident some time very soon. Anyone with an ounce of Thai life experience should know these things are a regular occurrence. Just a shame that some poor tourists have to learn the hard way.

I say, somewhat hypocritically, that it's hardly worth commenting on a story like this, let alone getting all worked up about it. Man, if I let myself get upset about every example of corruption and dishonesty I witness on a daily basis, I would be one distraught farang.

A stress free day to you all.

To represent Thailand a person needs ability, intelligence, confidence, grace, dignity, class, charm, decorum, charisma and an outstanding personality.

Its sad that the current Miss Thailand seems to be lacking in all the above.

Wow. You managed to work all that out from looking at a couple of photos. Quite incredible.....or perhaps just very talented in the art of jumping to hugely unjustified conclusions.

Don't these idiots realize that most of the soldiers are just poor kids from the sticks?

That's probably why they were targeted. We shouldn't immediately assume this was the work of Red Shirts.

Salient point. Just as likely to be the work of the yellows in order to stir a reaction from the army and to create the association in peoples minds between the red shirts and violence.

I must be living in a dream world... I have driven here for 25 years, and I have never seen or experienced road rage, or ever witnessed an accident. I just do my driving and enjoy the experience

You must be living in a dream world, just last week you posted this:

A couple of years ago, during a light rain, I was driving my Pick up south of the hot springs. In a turn, I lost my traction and ended up with my truck flipping on its side... No injuries, thank god, but this is what my truck looked like..

Forget about that one Ajarnmai? Classic.

I must be living in a dream world... I have driven here for 25 years, and I have never seen or experienced road rage, or ever witnessed an accident. I just do my driving and enjoy the experience

you have never witnessed an accident in 25 years of driving in Thailand? Consider yourself very very lucky. I wish I could get the memory out of my head of the images of people laying face down in pools of blood.

No fair if your legally blind

I have seen maybe 10-12 fatalities (mostly aftermaths) in 5 years in CM and I consider myself a lucky person. I want some of that Ajanmai luck. wow.

I find it quite staggering that you have not witnessed an accident in 25 years of driving. Almost every time I undertake a long journey I come across the scene of an accident, some serious, some trivial. Among these I too have witnessed fatalities. I have also been knocked off my motorbike 3 times in 8 years, once by a geriatric and twice by drunks.

I think your experience is unfortunately far from the norm.

I live in the same neighborhood and was having dinner last night with one of the policemen who were at the scene. I heard the same details from him - young Thai in a car pulls up next to him and shoots him at a red light while on his motorcycle - all I can add was that Mr. Schuller was 43.

As safe as we may feel here, ex-pats should keep in mind that Thailand has the 3rd highest firearm homicide rate in the world behind South Africa and Columbia, and has a firearm homicide rate ten times higher than that of the US.

My condolences to Mr. Schuller's family.

Out of curiosity, where did you derive those figures from?

-Mestizo

Mestizo,

The figures come from a UNODC study - A Google search for "List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate" should bring it up.

I have a suspicion (that you might be able to confirm) that your numbers come from here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...s-with-firearms

In that case, I feel compelled to point out an oddity. According to that table, there were 20,032 murders by firearms in Thailand according to a UN report from 2002. According to another table on the same site ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders ) there were however "only" 5,140 total murders in Thailand in the same period. I don't know whether this should be interpreted as each victim having been shot with four bullets or in some other way

/ Priceless

it is possible that suicides by gun have also been included in this figure. I know it is titled murder by firearm, but a mistake in the naming of these stats could have occurred. It's a fact that a large number of gun related deaths throughout the world are suicides.

"those fully healed would be encouraged to not reuse the drugs"

That's got to be a classic!

Classic indeed. A quote that highlights the Thai authorities rather poor understanding regarding the nature of drug addicts.

Addicts need a complete change in their lives to steer clear of their old ways. i.e.keeping away from friends that use, some kind of worthwhile employment to develop a feeling that they have a purpose in life. They also need regular counseling to get them through the bad times when they are most vulnerable to a relapse.

This involves a little more than a gentle "I say old chap, now that your clean, you will be a good fellow and refrain from your nefarious activities won't you? Good. Ok Run along now."

Fantastic news. Will finally be able to drink something other than Leo/Tiger/Singha.

Not drunk the Chang for years since I missed the opportunity to go skinny dipping with a Norwegian lass , spending the night puking under a bungalow instead. I think she was hot, but I did have an acute case of the Chang goggles affecting my every living sense. In reflection its highly possible the Chang saved me from waking up next to a Norse kateoy or something. Either way, the puking bit was rubbish so the Chang had to go.

Sorry for straying there. I for one will celebrate Foreign imports at normal prices with a dedication hithero unseen here in the north, starting with a celebratory case of Beer Laos. Fingers crossed Newcastle Brown is made in Singapore or something and that too comes under this free trade agreement.

The Thai beer industry will certainly be losing my little contribution to their coffers and I suspect I'm not the only one.

After reading this thread with interest, I would like to add a few comments. One can easily spot from the replies in this thread the people that may have been to Thailand on holiday, to those people that have been living in this country for some time. The 'holiday' posters are viewing this 'act' with their western values, nothing wrong in that at all, however many Thai's have no interest or understanding of western values. No matter how angry it will make people, the facts in this case will be what the Thai Police say they will be, why let the truth get in the way of an incident that the Thai's will want to brush under the carpet as soon as possible. Some posters have asked the question of what was the motive or reasoning behind the off duty Police Officer approaching the couple in the first instance. Those of you that have lived here for some time will understand what I am about to say, others will find this difficult to understand. Most Thai's do not make a decision based on reason or the facts presented before them, they will make a decision based on their feelings, this is why the Police Officer will not admit any guilt or that he had done any wrong, because how could his feelings be wrong! Many Thai's will only ever feel 'shame' when they have been seen to lose 'face' amongst their peers, they will never feel guilt or admit any responsibility, due to the fact that they carried out the act based on their feelings, and again, how can your feelings be wrong? I do not condone what happened, I am just trying to explain to some posters that the difference in western and Thai culture is so very deep, that unless you are Thai, no matter how many years you live here, you will never truly understand the Thai mindset. With that said, and hoping that I have not caused any ill feeling to any reader, the out come of this case, as always, will be a positive result for the Police Officer, and anger, and none understanding to every one else.

It took 799 posts to get it right. I agree with the crux of what you're saying. Because it's so hard to understand the Thai way of thinking (at times) I tend to only associate with a few Thai friends of high morals and my falang friends. I avoid the Thai police when possible. Imagine making friends with a Thai cop and one day he asks for a favor. What if it's something you don't want to do.......how would you feel.......what would you think......would you say no?

This is a case of a small man with a gun who was embarrassed; in his mind at the time the only thing to do was retaliate and restore face.

Totally disagree.

'Thai Culture', 'Thai Mindset' and 'Thai Way of Thinking' are merely excuses for the Thais laziness, refusal to act in an adult manner, their inability to take responsibility for their actions and many of their other failings as a society, culturally and as a country.

It is time they stopped shirking and started to grow up as a nation and act as responsible individuals.

I don't think that you are in disagreement to be honest. Learningcurve is stating an aspect of the way Thais conduct themselves that anybody who has spent the requisite time here is familiar with. He is pointing out the difference in the way respective societies deal with things whilst not making excuses or judging the values he's refering to.

I personally agree with what he says and your comments that it is a lazy and immature approach to life that causes a huge number of problems throughout Thai society. This much we can understand. Getting your head around how and why these are such commonly found character traits (especially amongst Thai men) is a little harder to achieve

After reading this thread with interest, I would like to add a few comments. One can easily spot from the replies in this thread the people that may have been to Thailand on holiday, to those people that have been living in this country for some time. The 'holiday' posters are viewing this 'act' with their western values, nothing wrong in that at all, however many Thai's have no interest or understanding of western values. No matter how angry it will make people, the facts in this case will be what the Thai Police say they will be, why let the truth get in the way of an incident that the Thai's will want to brush under the carpet as soon as possible. Some posters have asked the question of what was the motive or reasoning behind the off duty Police Officer approaching the couple in the first instance. Those of you that have lived here for some time will understand what I am about to say, others will find this difficult to understand. Most Thai's do not make a decision based on reason or the facts presented before them, they will make a decision based on their feelings, this is why the Police Officer will not admit any guilt or that he had done any wrong, because how could his feelings be wrong! Many Thai's will only ever feel 'shame' when they have been seen to lose 'face' amongst their peers, they will never feel guilt or admit any responsibility, due to the fact that they carried out the act based on their feelings, and again, how can your feelings be wrong? I do not condone what happened, I am just trying to explain to some posters that the difference in western and Thai culture is so very deep, that unless you are Thai, no matter how many years you live here, you will never truly understand the Thai mindset. With that said, and hoping that I have not caused any ill feeling to any reader, the out come of this case, as always, will be a positive result for the Police Officer, and anger, and none understanding to every one else.

Pretty spot on analysis of a specific cultural difference between Thailand and the west that longer term residents struggle with and ultimately fail to relate to on any level. I understand this is how most Thais think, but cannot and will never be able to comprehend the reasoning or morality behind it. I realise that Thai values are not going to change any time soon and have come to accept that this is the way things are. It can be quite a depressing thought if you let it get to you.

This is also a big reason why corruption will continue to plague the country. With no guilty feelings (unless you are caught) whats holding you back from taking what you want.

Nice post learningcurve

More Rashomon...

Girl who witnessed friend being shot by Thai policeman denies being a troublemaker

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Ms Reisig adamantly stuck to her claim that Police Sergeant Major Uthai Dechawiwat was the one who struck the first blow early last Sunday morning as she was walking from the Be-Bop bar in Pai to the Bamboo Bar.

“Things are a bit foggy. I can’t quite remember what happened before the incident, But I can remember everything very clearly from the time that man hit me in the face."

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Does anybody else find this sentence interesting? Just a note.

I think it says it all. She discredits her own version of events with this statement. Seems like that punch could have sobered her up. In her own words she does not remember what happened prior to that and is therefore an unreliable witness as to who started the fight.

Ms Reisig adamantly stuck to her claim that Police Sergeant Major Uthai Dechawiwat was the one who struck the first blow early last Sunday morning as she was walking from the Be-Bop bar in Pai to the Bamboo Bar.

"Things are a bit foggy. I can't quite remember what happened before the incident, But I can remember everything very clearly from the time that man hit me in the face.

"Leo and I were always messing around and play fighting noisily. We might have even been yelling at each other, play-fighting - but not in anger, it was just our way of kidding around, having fun. We never fought in anger. But even if we were fighting, we weren't hurting anybody else. It didn't give anyone the right to shoot us.

"I don't feel at all responsible for the shooting. The guy who did this was crazy."

Last night as the sunset on Pai, a former by-water which has been taken over in the last 3 years by a massive backpacker invasion, two Thai witnesses said they insisted it was Carly not the policeman who started the fight.

Knowing the policeman involved, I find it hard to believe he waltzed up and punched Carly in the face before being assualted to whatever degree first. A heavy drinker with personal problems yes, but with no history of public violence even at his most inebriated. Having said that I have only encountered him socially, not in a stressful situation like this.

The real issue at stake here (events aside) is why an off duty policeman is allowed to carry his gun around whilst in plain clothes. If he had not had his gun with him, the victim would still be alive and his girlfriend/wife would not be in a hospital bed.

At worst, if the farang aggression is to be believed, the cop would have a few minor injuries, the supposed antagonists would be banged up for assault and we wouldn't be discussing this.

I truly hope (in vain) that as a result of this tragic incident, the police/government enforce the law concerning the carrying of guns off duty. The law is black and white on this issue. Unfortunately, most cops consider themselves to be above the law. That shit is for the common man, backed up by the filth at the top who will do anything in their power to protect one of their own.

The way the police force is managed (training, funding, pay, accountability, etc) is in dire need of an overhaul before your average Thai/expat/tourist/random gets the protection that these jumped up mafioso are institutionally incapable of providing.

Freaky long hair, his ex has bizarre balls tatooed around one eye and they are both hanging out in Pai, of all places. Something is probably going on here that no one is talking about; come on, out with it, what's the real deal?

In case you weren't aware, what you have described is the average appearance of the visitors that find themselves in Pai. Not all visitors of course, but many. Pai is yabaland.

You obviously have not been to Pai for a while canuckamuck. It is a far more mainstream tourist destination than it used to be. Yes it has it has a number of blissed out hippy visitors who may or may not take drugs (don't judge a book by its cover). It also now attracts a broad spectrum of other tourists including families, respectable travellers of all ages and a large number of Thai tourists at this time of the year, none of whom have come here for the so-called drug scene. In the past Pai was known as a cheap place to go and get mashed. This is no longer the case. Drugs are far more widespread and available in other tourist hotspots around the country, Koh Pan ngan being a good example. Pai is not a "yabaland" anymore - get your facts straight.

OK yabaland minor then, I was commenting mainly on sunrise07's surprise at their appearence. I'm saying dreads and other nouveau hippie motifs are not an unusual sight in Pai.

Fair enough. You do see a number of hippies in town. Mostly of the trust fund type who don't have to work because daddy transfers cash every week. A great addition to the mix they are with their worldly wise insights and "lets all save the planet without actually getting off our <deleted>" attitudes.

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

Lisu, not Lahu, in the case of the hilltribe drug vendors who used to wait in the bushes near the waterfall.

It is a Lahu village just before the falls. There is not a Lisu costume in sight! There is a Lisu village 2km before this next to the chinese village, but they don't openly sell drugs.

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge. - Quoted from Kat.

As regards her pregnancy or not, that is pure speculation. She certainly doesn't look pregnant. Nobody I know in Pai has any information on whether or not this is true. Sounds like it isn't if the hospital has ruled it out.

So you are stating her pregnancy in this post here, based on the news article and not on any first hand knowledge?

I have no first hand knowledge on whether or not she is pregnant. I foolishly assumed that part of the article to be correct. As i said pure speculation

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge. - Quoted from Kat.

As regards her pregnancy or not, that is pure speculation. She certainly doesn't look pregnant. Nobody I know in Pai has any information on whether or not this is true. Sounds like it isn't if the hospital has ruled it out.

Freaky long hair, his ex has bizarre balls tatooed around one eye and they are both hanging out in Pai, of all places. Something is probably going on here that no one is talking about; come on, out with it, what's the real deal?

In case you weren't aware, what you have described is the average appearance of the visitors that find themselves in Pai. Not all visitors of course, but many. Pai is yabaland.

You obviously have not been to Pai for a while canuckamuck. It is a far more mainstream tourist destination than it used to be. Yes it has it has a number of blissed out hippy visitors who may or may not take drugs (don't judge a book by its cover). It also now attracts a broad spectrum of other tourists including families, respectable travellers of all ages and a large number of Thai tourists at this time of the year, none of whom have come here for the so-called drug scene. In the past Pai was known as a cheap place to go and get mashed. This is no longer the case. Drugs are far more widespread and available in other tourist hotspots around the country, Koh Pan ngan being a good example. Pai is not a "yabaland" anymore - get your facts straight.

More info.

As i mentioned in my previous posts on this subject, I live in Pai and know this policeman having played football with him and and seen him around on numerous occasions over the past 5 years. He is not a bad guy but has a serious drinking problem and family issues. I have seen him on many occasions in the Be Bop bar extremely drunk and packing his pistol both in and out of uniform. Apparently he was suspended from carrying his gun up until recently (for what reason I am not sure) and had only just had this privelige restored.

FACT - many people witnessed him drinking all night in Be Bop prior to the incident. He certainly had not just come off duty. Judging by the state he normally gets into, he would barely have been capable of standing up and would be the most unsuitable person i can imagine to intervene in a domestic with anyone, let alone a farang couple especially as his english is very bad and next to impossible to understand when he is drunk. To be honest, I doubt he can recall what happened and was probably in blackout mode.

This concocted self defense bs is catagorically untrue according to the large number of witnesses. Like I said he was pushed to the ground and reacted straight away. He was not getting beaten up and there was no attempt to wrestle his gun away. I have all this from people who were there! The local people will not get involved as witnesses due to the inevitable repurcussions that would follow. Not sure if there were any tourists that witnessed this.

Whatever some of the more ridiculous posters think of farang behaviour and its rights and wrongs, you try keeping your cool if you found out your wife/girlfriend had been shagging around behind your back and was pregnant as a result. Imagine then, being confronted by some drunken guy you cannot understand and who you would never expect to be a policeman in that state. Some perspective is needed here.

A long hard look at gun carrying proceedure for off duty cops is also needed. As far as I am aware, it is illegal for an off duty cop to be carrying his gun.

The pre-meditated charge is also very confusing, especially if you subscribe to the official police lie err sorry, line.

I live in Pai and can confirm that there was a shooting last night. A canadian guy is dead and his female friend is in hospital in Chiang Mai having been shot through the shoulder or so I am told.

The incident certainly did not take place in a restaurant. The blood stains on the road are testament to that fact. According to witnesses, the couple in question were very drunk and fighting in the street. A local off duty policeman witnessed this whilst eating in a nearby restaurant and intervened. How the couple ended up getting shot I am not sure and has obviously been the subject of intense speculation here today. The policeman in question is a notoriously unstable individual who allegedly tried to kill himself a few weeks ago and was also rumoured to be drunk at the time of the incident.

How a domestic if very public argument has escalated into this beggars belief. Although having said that, if you have witnessed the level of drinking here amongst the coppers (whilst in uniform) as I have, then something like this, although deeply worrying is not altogether surprising.

Will update with as reliable information as I can get, when I get it.

Having been out tonight and speaking with a close friend of mine who witnessed the whole thing, it appears that when the policeman (off duty, in plain clothes yet still carrying his gun whilst rat arsed!) went to intervene, the emotionally angry and drunk farang guy did not take to kindly to this, and probably not realising the guy was a cop, pushed him over into a motorbike. The response to this was an immediate and fatal shot to the head and chest. Never could this be classed as self defence or warranted , more another example of horrendous drunken over reaction as a result of losing face. In the melee, the girl was indeed shot through the shoulder.

The policeman has been arrested and an "investigation" is under way

They will be doing well to cover this one up.

I live in Pai and can confirm that there was a shooting last night. A canadian guy is dead and his female friend is in hospital in Chiang Mai having been shot through the shoulder or so I am told.

The incident certainly did not take place in a restaurant. The blood stains on the road are testament to that fact. According to witnesses, the couple in question were very drunk and fighting in the street. A local off duty policeman witnessed this whilst eating in a nearby restaurant and intervened. How the couple ended up getting shot I am not sure and has obviously been the subject of intense speculation here today. The policeman in question is a notoriously unstable individual who allegedly tried to kill himself a few weeks ago and was also rumoured to be drunk at the time of the incident.

How a domestic if very public argument has escalated into this beggars belief. Although having said that, if you have witnessed the level of drinking here amongst the coppers (whilst in uniform) as I have, then something like this, although deeply worrying is not altogether surprising.

Will update with as reliable information as I can get, when I get it.