KevinHunt

I contacted the brewer who is actually a subsidiary of Chang beer, seems that it is not yet available for distribution in Chiang Mai. Tesco buys their supply from BKK and transports it using their own trucks.

The old Makro (superhighway) has it in stock - large and small bottles. 739b for 24 small. I couldn't see the price for large - probably the same?

I used to go there quite a while back - about ten years ago. They made some quite reasonable bratwurst, knackwurst etc. I changed my supplier to Gunter in Doi Saket when he arrived, but I thought those at Thai-German were quite good. They apparently had a German master butcher. They supplied wholesale and retail. Worth a try if you're out that way. The shop is on the right as you go through the gate.

Has anybody else noticed that the time is one hour out on this forum? It is now 2.39pm but this new topic will be shown as started at 3.39.

Not 'daylight savin' surely?

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

Let's say a scandal erupted involving an illegal volunteer worker (not at all hard to imagine this happening). Thailand would be forced by the glare of international publicity to enforce its own laws and some people might be jailed/deported.

Or let's say an illegal volunteer got on the wrong side of an Important Person, who proceeded to make life difficult for them. One way would be to see the law on working without a permit enforced.

There are numerous other scenarios which suggest to me that it's best to err on the side of caution when it comes to breaking the law in a foreign country.

So, in a nutshell - if you want to have a great (nay 'memorable') time at the Elephant Nature Park, as I'm sure you will , then go for it. However, if you think that some great scandal may erupt whilst you are there (extremely unlikely) or you anticipate upsetting an Important Person - (I don't know you personally but at a guess ..... hard to imagine) then don't do it.

Err on the side of caution by all means, but err on the side of the almost laughably unlikely???????? I wouldn't.

However, what you might want to consider before you even come to Thailand , if you're the nervous type ... SARS, or Bird Flu or tsunamis and military coups (not at all hard to imagine this happening).

If I had the time or inclination ......... I wouldn't hesitate. In the least.

By the way, this is showing the posted time as 5.37 but it's only 4.37? The match has just finished but I'm not planning on staying up that late!! Anyway, at least it explains half of my last statement.

Hi

I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation

If you're the nervous type then contact them direct.

Your advice might be helped if you read her post.

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

The fact that the volunteers pay for the pleasure may also change things. Ask them. I'd say.

I'd volunteer if I had the time or inclination.

Hi

Ive come to Chiang Mai to work as a volunteer for the Elephant Nature Park but this topic has got me worried that I may be breaking the law. I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation that I definitely dont need a work permit and everything will be fine but the posts here appear to contradict that. I am quite firightened that there will be consequences. Can someone give me some advice as to whether to go ahead with the work or will I be leaving myself open for trouble with the Thai authorities?

Thank you

They've been in operation for quite a few years and are very respected. I've never heard of anyone having a problem. If you're the nervous type then contact them direct. To quote their site....

http://www.elephantnaturefoundation.org/go/volunteer

If you have any questions regarding our volunteer program, please email us at [email protected].

Panic merchants may advise otherwise.

Seems I recall that the average duration of a tourist stay in Chiang Mai to be less than 2 days.

aveage length of stay (day)

Thai----2.95

Foreigners---3.42

So now that we've got the figures what do we do with them? How does it make a diference? Arivals are up/down expenditure is up/down average stay is up/down? So does that explain why I've been so busy/quiet? Or what?

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

Common sense? m... there are lots of things in Thailand that are common sense but don't make sense. The fact is that if farangs contravene labour laws they can be expelled. What does make sense is that for many expats who want to make their life here and have maybe heavily invested - both financially and family-wise in this country - is that they make highly critical judgements before they embark on something that can end it all. If in doubt then weigh the risks.

Ask yourself the obvious question .. Is it likely that a Farang would be expelled for volunteering for a project such as this? 2 hours a week? Helping the local government? Not really. If I had the time or inclination for such a project I wouldn't hesitate. Technically, theoretically, ....... anything could happen. Is it likely ..... not really. Other than the odd nutter interfering in Thai affairs, I doubt if any volunteer has ever been deported or even fined. What would be the point?

If you want everything to be iron-clad with all the I's dotted and T's crossed then don't do it. (If you're that sort of person you must be hating being here!!) . If you are paranoid , don't do it. If you are SRIRACHAJOHN, don't do it . Otherwise, go ahead and enjoy yourself - I'm sure it will be very rewarding.

Haus München has been closed for ages now (Nancy is not quite up-to-date"..).

It was owned by the same people as own the Red Lion and the current Red Lion menu contains all the German specialties from the old restaurant.

Good "himbeergeist" and I go way back - liquid perfection when it's the right stuff (usually from Black Forest) . Looking now at my Nancy Chandler map, I see "Haus München" - three doors down from Hofbräuhaus (and after Red Lion Pub); that's the place I mentioned before.

Was Haus Munchen the place off of the super highway, behind Hillside 5?? Cause I was there a long time ago, and it was GREAT!! The chef would come out and make sure his guest were satisfied with everything, and with the size of the portions, it was hard not to be. He did this with every guest. Nice guy, had a nice domation as well. But when I tried to go back, it was gone!!

Anyone know what happened?

No. It was in the night bazaar. see above.

I see that the beggar elephants are back in Chiang Mai. They disappeared for a few months after orders from up high, but as expected they are now roaming the streets again til the wee hours - I spotted 2 at about 3am - a young one outside Spicy and a baby elephant along Loi Kroh rd. I had a 'Please don't feed the elephants' sign in my place, which I took down about a month ago, but it looks like I'll have to dig it out again. These noble creatures deserve a better life than that of an enslaved, abused beggar.

It looks like the same operators are responsible .Presumably, they wear down the resolve of the interested parties with their persistence.

Can anyone confirm that a couple of Farang-owned bars were recently fined 20,000 baht, with customers caught smoking fined 2,000 baht?

All smoke and mirrors I was in a bar/restaurant the other week and drinking with one of the local BIB's. He lit up and asked for an ashtray. It's one of my favourite bars as they don't give a rats about the smoking ban, although they have signs everywhere, TIT rules

Presumably, that's what the owners of the two bars in question thought. If the story is true a 20,000 baht fine is enough for most bar owners to think again.

Can anyone confirm that a couple of Farang-owned bars were recently fined 20,000 baht, with customers caught smoking fined 2,000 baht?

I've tried to get the BBC radio live feed from the internet, but it's a couple minutes behind.. I suppose with a harddisk recorder I could delay the Thai TV by the same, but it's hel_l to achieve.

So anyone know where in town this is on, in English?

Any palce that has WETV. The Red Lion has it but only till Saturday - after which all games are at 1.45am. Try Khru Chiang Mai after that.

I used to come up against this sort of thing when I used to own a hotel and diving biz I provided hotel and diving services for thousands of divers and visitors whom 99.999% had a great time and left very happy however every now and again we would have an unhappy customer and GUESS WHAT there experiecnce would be posted all over the net and i had an INSTANT PR problem over 16 years i had a few unhappy visitors and I tell you it damages your business as 1 unhappy customer can cause a lot of damage even though the majority of visitors had a great time.

I'm sorry to say it but THAT'S LIFE....99.999% of people who have run their own business have had similar problems I am sure. It happened to me when I had my business...there is always one grumpy bugger who would never be happy whatever you do, and that one person would always go out of their way to tell as many people as thay could how bad your servce was

Remember that the person who started the +++Warning thread+++ was phsically assulted, I can see where you and Chiang Mai are coming from, but what's to stop others who have had good experiences with the particular company in question from taking the post and quoting it saying that they had a GOOD service there?

I agree. The Red Lion / O'Malley's thread never bothered me. Free advertising. And, believe it or not, some of the complaints were valid and addressed. I now have a comments slip on every table and mostly they are positive, which is good, but I'm more interested in the complaints, to see how we're doing. It's not unusual that one table praises a dish and the next table criticises it - five minutes later. Who's right? - both of them. The first guy gets a 'thank you' and the next gut get's a 'Sorry - would you like to change it for something else'.

When people complain about somewhere it isn't too difficult to figure out whether it is genuine or nor or whether the guy is just a whinger or got an axe to grind. Some of the complaints about other businesses I've seen posted on TV I've taken on board, and some I've ignored. I use common sense , and I assume that most people do the same.

Not sure what your point is. I don't doubt that it happens. I'm only asking for accurate, verifiable numbers that provide some context. Which I guess you can't provide either. And if only long-term members will remember people from Chiang Mai being deported, that tells me that it hasn't happened in quite some time.

My point is that people do get deported for work permit imfringements, the last one that I knew of personally was an Italian gentleman that was arrested by immigration ploice and shipped down to Bangkok for deportation about nine months ago.

I very much doubt if you'll find any official figures anywhere, as like everything else that effects tourism......It's bad for the image, to say nothing of the pocket

Does anyone know of an actual case of a volunteer ever being jailed/deported for not having a work permit? I'm sure plenty of illegal teachers/tour guides etc have been punished throughout the years but I've never heard of a guy volunteering in the village school etc ever being jailed. Warned maybe. Actually jailed?

Personally, I very much doubt if anyone would actually report farangs volunteering for this project, and I very much doubt that if it ever happened, the volunteers would be jailed. It all seems theoretical to me. Highly unlikely scenario, methinks.

Saw an article in Tuesday's Chaing Mai Mail that might be of interest since I know the topic of volunteering comes up from time to time. This is a cross-cultural education project sponsored by the Chiang Mai Friends' group and supported by Chiang Mai municipality. Volunteers will spend a minimum of two hours a week with students 11-12 years old, assisting them with English conversation. Volunteers need either an ESL qualification or be recommended by the board of the Chiang Mai Friends' group.

Here's the good thing...special permission is being given by the Chiang Mai Municipality to enable volunteer teachers to work without the usual requirements of a work permit.

Contact person is Khun Boong

Let's hope Srirachajohn doesn't see that one. We'll never hear the last of it.

Glad to help. By the same token, hopefully, we'll hear back soon from the police volunteers themselves on the questions asked of them.

Why should they answer to you .. or to any other anonymous forum "pundit"?

My point entirely. I asked the same question twice ...

' Why are you so bothered about whether or not these guys have a work permit or not? '

but got no direct answer. You need to read between the lines.

You can begin see the frustrations involved the same as I have had for years across a dozen or more threads.

My answer to you is because of what I pointed out to the police volunteer once some of my questions were answered. In that others in similar volunteer situations don't have this exemption.... but yet don't share the same denial of their status.

So the laws aren't applied uniformly or consistently in Thailand? I must remeber that. A useful point learnt. Thanks.

I hope you don't mind me asking again, but I'm intrigued. Please explain ....

'Why are you so bothered about whether or not these guys have a work permit or not?

I'm sure they are aware of the ramifications of being a volunteer and since they continue to do it, I assume they are not concerned. So why are you? It certainly doesn't appear to be brotherly love.

'I'm not questioning their motives... but their ethics and morals' you say.

Ethically and morally, they shouldn't be helping tourists!!! Wow.

Perhaps this is simply a case of 'moral indignation,' which we all know is basically

2% moral

48% indignation

50% jealousy

No other answer seems to fit quite as well. When people object to other people giving freely of their time, when people ridicule the volunteers for providing a service, when these same people then say that they have the time to go drinking but not the time to help others....

Hey, if you see hoofprints and smell horsesh@t, think horses, not zebras.

I can appreciate the poster's wish to see the laws enforced. In a Utopia there wouldn't even be a need for laws. In many countries, more laws ARE enforced. But we live in this one. Accept that fact and try to live in harmony with it. If you want to see the laws handled the way YOU want them to be, start your own country, make your own laws, and enforce them. Then count how many people live there.

I can understand people wishing to see a different uniform. I can understand people wanting this organization to be separate from the Police. There are plenty of good reasons for these ideas, although there are just as many good reason for not changing. That's a matter of opinion. But when you get people ridiculing those who are trying to help others.... No, there are NO good reasons for that!

Thank you folk guitar I find your wisdom and knowledge exceptional,

not to mention your patience with some uninformed, misinformed and

outright nasty folks in this forum.

Now for the facts about The TPD volunteers.

1. We are not law enforcement : we are told NOT to get involved

in any way with police responsibilities. If we see anything that

looks like trouble we call on the cellphone and a Thai Police officer

will come to assist. Their response time is very quick too.

2. We do NOT carry batons, handcuffs, flamethrowers or AK-47s.

What you see on my belt is a cellphone and a digital camara.

3. We have 4 main venues to assist the tourist : Airport, Sunday

night walking street, night bazzar and TPD headquarters.

Headquaters is where we talk with 100-200 tourists everyday 7

days a week, 365 days a year. This is not easy work.

4. We are REQUESTED, not demanded, to give 20 hours a MONTH.

This is flexable of course. TIT

5. We are told at the interview that they will do a police background

check in our native country.

6. We buy the prescribed uniform at a shop of our choosing. Mine

cost 1300 baht, ( I've dropped that much on lady drinks in an

hour) The word VOLUNTEER is shown on any shirts we wear

that in any way looks official. I have some polo shirts for the hot

days that were gifts from the Thais as a way of saying thanks

for the help.

7. Now for the BIG one, I hope this removes the BUG from

someones Butt. I ask about work permits and the law.

This is from the officer in charge of volunteers.

The volunteers are EXEMPT because we work for the Government

of Thailand. The other volunteers here who help in other ways

work for foundations ( religious, humanitarian etc.) that are

NOT Thai Government agencies. So my morals and ethics are

still in tact (sometimes) .

8. I am told that a police uniform is the best deterent to petty

street crime. Thieves, cons and bag snatchers tend to target

the tourists in any country. Tourism being the # 1 industry

here I feel the Thais know what they are doing. If you want to

see me in white tights and a tutu its gonna cost you

I know my attempts at humor are pretty lame, just trying

to keep it light.

Please drive carefully and don't forget to SMILE

Sawadee Kup

That should put that one to bed, I hope. But you never know - dogs and bones....

Anyway to show my admiration for your tolerance and good nature , you're welcome to a free pint at my place, too. Farangcravings knows where I am. In fact, a free pint to all those that have shown support for them. Friday night, my place. You've got til Friday 2pm to post your positive remarks, if you haven't done so already. The silent majority??

Glad to help. By the same token, hopefully, we'll hear back soon from the police volunteers themselves on the questions asked of them.

Why should they answer to you .. or to any other anonymous forum "pundit"?

My point entirely. I asked the same question twice ...

' Why are you so bothered about whether or not these guys have a work permit or not? '

but got no direct answer. You need to read between the lines.

I'm still looking for singles matches........

I'm up for it , but I'm off to England for 2 weeks at the weekend. Thursday at the Gymkhana? They've got a nice new surface there now. It's even possible to play in the rain without slipping and sliding. Assuming you can play with soggy balls of course.

Thank you, I look forward to the posting of a copy of the required work permit exemption letter from the Labour Ministry.

It certainly would be appropriate for police volunteers to not be flagrantly in violation of the law, especially in light of the stiff penalties involved.

John I did not say i was going to post a copy i was going to clarify what the situation is and what there response is to your question

regards

The situation seems very clear already. The police volunteers are working illegally in Thailand. What the work permit exemption letter posting would do would be to legitimize that they are not working illegally.

As for doing things above aboard and in compliance with regulations and law, it always has struck me odd that police volunteers in particular... a group supposedly dedicated to the enforcement of regulations and laws have... thus far for 4+ years of Thaivisa...failed in this regard.

Any update on getting legitimate and legal?

I hope you don't mind me asking again, but I'm intrigued. Please explain ....

'Why are you so bothered about whether or not these guys have a work permit or not?

I'm sure they are aware of the ramifications of being a volunteer and since they continue to do it, I assume they are not concerned. So why are you? It certainly doesn't appear to be brotherly love.

You assume a tremendous amount on their part. It's been obvious through many of these several police volunteer threads that they are NOT aware of the ramifications. I think their reluctance to address the issue properly reflects a denial of their concern. Still, why don't we both allow them to speak for themselves on these aspects.

'I'm not questioning their motives... but their ethics and morals' you say.

Ethically and morally, they shouldn't be helping tourists!!! Wow.

Ethically and morally, the representatives of law enforcement should not be so flagrantly in violation of the law that they have willingly chosen to enforce. Ethically and morally, they should take the necessary steps to insure they are legal to perform the task of helping tourists. Once again, don't confuse the issue of work permits with the altruism that also comes into the situation. Complying with the law AND helping others are not mutually exclusive.

I know I said before, that your obsession was 'strange' but actually it wasn't really the right word ... it's more... welll .... funny. I had to admit that mistake because I remember laughing a few times. In fact I'm having a good little chuckle now.

I didn't have a view on these guys one way or another, but the more I hear the negative judgements and criticism they get for helping people out , the more I admire them. They're out on the streets, being polite, friendly and helpful and for some reason they're being ridiculed and having their ethics and morals questioned. Amazing. I still don't understand the Thais, but Farangs never cease to amaze and amuse me.

That's not surprising given that you seem to have a limited ability to see various aspects of a single topic.

Thank you , you answered all my questions. Even the first one.

Thank you, I look forward to the posting of a copy of the required work permit exemption letter from the Labour Ministry.

It certainly would be appropriate for police volunteers to not be flagrantly in violation of the law, especially in light of the stiff penalties involved.

John I did not say i was going to post a copy i was going to clarify what the situation is and what there response is to your question

regards

The situation seems very clear already. The police volunteers are working illegally in Thailand. What the work permit exemption letter posting would do would be to legitimize that they are not working illegally.

As for doing things above aboard and in compliance with regulations and law, it always has struck me odd that police volunteers in particular... a group supposedly dedicated to the enforcement of regulations and laws have... thus far for 4+ years of Thaivisa...failed in this regard.

Any update on getting legitimate and legal?

I hope you don't mind me asking again, but I'm intrigued. Please explain ....

'Why are you so bothered about whether or not these guys have a work permit or not?

I'm sure they are aware of the ramifications of being a volunteer and since they continue to do it, I assume they are not concerned. So why are you? It certainly doesn't appear to be brotherly love.

'I'm not questioning their motives... but their ethics and morals' you say.

Ethically and morally, they shouldn't be helping tourists!!! Wow.

I know I said before, that your obsession was 'strange' but actually it wasn't really the right word ... it's more... welll .... funny. I had to admit that mistake because I remember laughing a few times. In fact I'm having a good little chuckle now.

I didn't have a view on these guys one way or another, but the more I hear the negative judgements and criticism they get for helping people out , the more I admire them. They're out on the streets, being polite, friendly and helpful and for some reason they're being ridiculed and having their ethics and morals questioned. Amazing. I still don't understand the Thais, but Farangs never cease to amaze and amuse me.

I just had mine renewed less then two weeks ago (Chiangmai) and it was only for the length of my visa extension which this time was for 5 months due to change in position. They charged 1500 baht + 100 which was normal for this length. What was the charge for yours? The reason I ask is there is talk of 20,000 Baht for one year and also will give one year regardless of Visa/extension.

3000 baht for permit plus 100b fee. Valid for 1 Year from expiration of old permit. My visa expires December, work permit next May.

That smacks of corruption

Worse still if I gave him a sandwich ...

Snacks of corruption

Sorry , I couldn't resist.