JIP

Let's show em: We'll start calling again Beijing by it's "real English" name... "Peking".

"The law is currently being tried out at Bangkok's Thung Maha Mek police station, where drunkdriving violations are the most frequent."

I love how in Thailand laws are always given a "test run" in certain places before making them... I don't know... "official" (?) everywhere. Why can't they just say, "No more drunk driving in Thailand!" Put a foot down and be done with it.

Instead, they institute this "No drunk driving here for now..." policy which, of course by dint of logic, means "Drunk driving is still okay everywhere else for now..."

No wonder people don't take laws like this seriously.

Philippines: Pretty much unlimited trips to the local Bureau of Immigration for 2-month visa extensions are allowed, 2000 baht, 40 minutes to an hour for total time spent, never a hassle. (Thailand: 20,000 baht, and 2-3 days' time required, hassles, and uncertainty.)

In addition, where I'm at, my wife just takes the paperwork and my passport with her to the Bureau of Immigration while she's out shopping, and does it all in my stead... I don't have to even leave the house to renew/extend.

Maybe I'll see some of you here soon.

Jungle Jil

Well, it will be interesting to see if airlines join in on this. (I doubt that they'll operate at a loss just to help out Thailand's tourist industry.) Otherwise, it's pretty much just reducing a trip to Thailand by a few thousand baht. The free visas certainly don't mean anything to the majority of tourists who get VOA.

which is why i suggest Vietnam...6 month visa with small fee,nice people,no hassles so NanLaew and Jip..maybe you should join me..when my two month tourist visa is up i dont think i will even bother with the extension,its GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!!

Vietnam, you'll find, is expensive living.

Heh. I left Thailand 8 months ago because of the visa hassles.

Anybody who wants to come and join me here in The Philippines, you can stay for 18 months without having to do a visa run. Just stop by immigration every 2 months and renew your visa.

If you are offering free room and board and beer thrown in, might take you up on it..

And kevlar. Don't forget the kevlar.

Yes. That is true. The Philippines is very dangerous these days, filled with angry mobs and people with guns and bombs... unlike Thailand. Definitely need Kevlar in The Philippines.

Heh. I left Thailand 8 months ago because of the visa hassles.

Anybody who wants to come and join me here in The Philippines, you can stay for 18 months without having to do a visa run. Just stop by immigration every 2 months and renew your visa.

If you are offering free room and board and beer thrown in, might take you up on it..

Nah. Last time I let you in my house, you tracked mud all over the place. You'll have to make it on your own this time.

Heh. I left Thailand 8 months ago because of the visa hassles.

Anybody who wants to come and join me here in The Philippines, you can stay for 18 months without having to do a visa run. Just stop by immigration every 2 months and renew your visa.

Well like I said: I was spending 100% of the millions of baht I earned every year (including all the tax money I got back from the IRS) in Thailand. Now I'm not. If that is what makes the Thai government happy, more power to them.

If moving is no problem for you, then what were the " millions of baht " being spent on? Just curious.

Heh. On visa runs.

Actually: I enjoy traveling around Southeast Asia, dining out at expensive restaurants in Pattaya, living in a nice house (rented), taking care of the GF's family, and just living the high life.

This will be the last I will post on this. If you still think that a person cannot claim the credit on their income from a US company while living in another country, well, it does not really matter to me what you think because I have the IRS on my side.

I can confirm this having lived overseas in various jobs while being paid in US dollars to my US accounts from our US office, including times that I lived in middle eastern countries that assessed no income taxes. Our company tax professionals, several of whom are ex-IRS, were available to help us with our returns, and we all got the exclusion.

However, I believe that the guy working for a US company from Thailand owes Thailand income tax under Thai law.

I'm that guy.

I wouldn't argue with you on that: If the Thai version of the IRS ever caught up with me, they would definitely want some money... but the American IRS doesn't require that you pay taxes in the country in which you are living in order to qualify for the Overseas Tax Credit.

Hate to inform you but if you are working in Thailand without a WP or paying taxes then claiming the overseas tax exemption to also avoid US taxes is criminal tax evasion. You do not have income derived from a job overseas. You have US income paid out to you overseas. You have to pay taxes somewhere.

When the IRS audits you, you are fuc_ked. Minimum of back taxes plus 20% and compounded interest with probable jail time.

I would get a good US tax attorney and tax accountant if I was you and clean this up while you can still claim a mistake based on ignorance.

I took a long time studying this, and... well... I won't bring out all the IRS forms and regulations here, but I'll just direct you at this link, with this part highlighted:

You will love the earned-income exclusion

The idea of double taxation doesn't wash in this country. So, states with income taxes let you may give you a credit on taxes you paid to another state. Congress has a similar attitude toward taxes you pay abroad. You shouldn't pay taxes twice. So, theres a special rule for earned income, if you qualify. For 2005, qualified taxpayers can exclude from gross income as much as $80,000 in income earned while living abroad.

...

This exclusion applies regardless of the amount of tax paid to the foreign country.

My company and I have been paying taxes to the IRS, and H&R Block has been filing my taxes, and the IRS has been giving me my Overseas Tax Credit for the last 4 years. If there was going to be a problem, I imagine (heh: I hope) my accountant or the IRS would have caught it by now.

(I will add though, CTM, that you did get me nervous there for a few minutes, and had me going back and double-checking all the research I had done before. Sheesh. )

I still think this is wrong and so will the IRS. You don't have "foreign earned income"! You want foreign earned income then form a company in Thailand, get a WP, proper visa, and have the company invoice the US company for your services.

Just because the IRS lackeys have not picked up on what you are doing does not make it legal and acceptable. It takes them years to get around to this stuff and probably never will but the fact you are a high income earner claiming a large income deduction puts you at greater risk for audit. Right now the IRS is not "giving it to you"…you are claiming the deduction and may be ruled against in the future. This is how people end up with insurmountable debts to the IRS. It takes them years to disallow the deductions and by the time they do your $80,000 (20x4) is now hundreds of thousands after penalties and interest.

The odds your local H&R Block tax preparer understands much about international taxation is slim. But, you got a "tax professional" to sign off on it then you should be protected from criminal prosecution since you have made a good faith effort to pay correctly. You might have a case against H&R Block if the IRS rules against your deduction.

Did you miss the part in red? You are not suffering from double taxation. By what you are saying, you are trying to avoid ANY taxation of $80,000 in income since you don't pay taxes in Thailand which you should be (but don't worry, it's not like the Thais will every catch you.)

This whole "I live outside the US so I don't have to pay taxes even on US earned income" is nonsense especially since you have no legitimate business reason for not physically being in America to perform your US job for a US company.

From your linked article:

You will love the earned-income exclusion…..

• Foreign earned income includes foreign-source wages, salaries, bonuses, commissions,…. Are your wages foreign sourced? No.

"See if you qualify for the foreign tax credit

Any foreign taxes you pay can either be deducted as an itemized deduction on your U.S. federal return as you would treat state income taxes, or potentially taken as a credit against your U.S. tax bill." You didn't pay any foreign taxes so you get no deduction.

(1) "This exclusion applies regardless of the amount of tax paid to the foreign country."

(2) Like I said, I didn't want to link to the IRS documents: You'd never find the point I wanted to make among all the legalese, and it's my fault for not explaining it myself, but... In order to get an $80,000 deduction from any income that the IRS can tax (any income, mind you, not just income earned in a country other than America), you only need prove that you spent less than 35 days per year in America. This is done by submitting the "Physical Presence Test" (I think it is form 1116 or something like that... I don't recall off the top of my head). See JSTUMBO's post #165 in this thread, as he "backs me up."

Once again, sorry for not providing documentation to all of this... but I assure you that the Overseas Tax Credit (and I will admit: to the best of my knowledge... but I know as well as you do what is at stake if I am wrong, and that means I'm pretty confident) is applied and approved for exactly the situation I am in: For those tax payers earning an American salary from an American company while working in a foreign country.

Addendum: Just as an afterthought, if the Overseas Tax Credit applied only to income earned from companies outside of the United States, then almost nobody would qualify for it, all of the people working in petrochemicals, finance, or what-have-you who are assigned overseas by their American employer would be ineligible. The only people who would qualify for this are people who are employed by a foreign company in a foreign country... and that, actually, is covered by a separate tax deduction, called the Foreign Tax Credit, I believe.

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

Interesting: One Thai consulate out of dozens makes one minor change in visa requirements, and you believe that the entire illegal workforce in Thailand is going to just up and disappear? No adjusting? No new plans? Just give up and go home? Boy: That's optimistic.

Hate to inform you but if you are working in Thailand without a WP or paying taxes then claiming the overseas tax exemption to also avoid US taxes is criminal tax evasion. You do not have income derived from a job overseas. You have US income paid out to you overseas. You have to pay taxes somewhere.

When the IRS audits you, you are fuc_ked. Minimum of back taxes plus 20% and compounded interest with probable jail time.

I would get a good US tax attorney and tax accountant if I was you and clean this up while you can still claim a mistake based on ignorance.

I took a long time studying this, and... well... I won't bring out all the IRS forms and regulations here, but I'll just direct you at this link, with this part highlighted:

You will love the earned-income exclusion

The idea of double taxation doesn't wash in this country. So, states with income taxes let you may give you a credit on taxes you paid to another state. Congress has a similar attitude toward taxes you pay abroad. You shouldn't pay taxes twice. So, theres a special rule for earned income, if you qualify. For 2005, qualified taxpayers can exclude from gross income as much as $80,000 in income earned while living abroad.

...

This exclusion applies regardless of the amount of tax paid to the foreign country.

My company and I have been paying taxes to the IRS, and H&R Block has been filing my taxes, and the IRS has been giving me my Overseas Tax Credit for the last 4 years. If there was going to be a problem, I imagine (heh: I hope) my accountant or the IRS would have caught it by now.

(I will add though, CTM, that you did get me nervous there for a few minutes, and had me going back and double-checking all the research I had done before. Sheesh. )

Well like I said: I was spending 100% of the millions of baht I earned every year (including all the tax money I got back from the IRS) in Thailand. Now I'm not. If that is what makes the Thai government happy, more power to them.

Didn't read every comment, but there are a lot like this. Actually, I think the Thai government really doesn't want farangs spending their money here. Why? Too much foreign investment driving up the currency, which makes life difficult for all of the exporters (a major segment of the economy). Their stated goal is to drive down the value of the currency to make exports more competitive, as long as there is more money/foreigners wanting to come in than can be accommodated, no surprise they can tighten up the rules and not worry about those who end up not spending their money here.

I disagree, Husky. Changing visa requirements on long-term tourists has such a tiny impact on the Thai economy that it wouldn't even register on even the most sensitive economic indicator. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, this is just Thailand exerting a little control over their immigration policies in order to generate the appearance that Thailand isn't quite the "wild west country" that people believe it is... partially because of (what used to be) their laissez-faire visa requirements.

I'm here because I'm on vacation... a very long vacation. I work on the internet while I'm on vacation.

Hey JIP , don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out......

Jimmy, just remember: Not all who wander the hel_l out of Thailand are lost. Philippines, here I come!

That's absolutely true: I get a $20,000 check every year from the IRS for living in Thailand and not paying taxes here. (Thank you America for the Overseas Tax Credit.) I'm not saying it's right, legal, or acceptable to Thailand... but Thailand let me do it up until now. Theoretically, I still could do it if I was willing to do visa runs to Prague, or go back to America and get 1-year visas like a sensible fellow, but my goal isn't to stay in Thailand anyway. These new visa rules are just what it takes to get me up and out, and I'm sure that is just what they wanted. Like I said though... no problem with me.

And you can't afford to buy a refundable ticket to the USA long enough to acquire a tourist visa?

Well, of course I could buy a ticket, and that's a fine idea as far as it goes, but it's adding one more thing that I need to do to stay in Thailand and... well... the fact simply is that it is one thing too many.

It used to be that once a month, I'd have to wake up at 5:30 a.m., and ride in a van out to the border, and be back to my desk by 2:00 p.m. and miss no more than half a day at the computer. That was fine... catch up on my reading and get a snooze in the van. Then, it went to overnight trips to Penang, where I had to miss a day and a half of pay. That was fine though... a little sightseeing and a night on the town. It's just that they keep adding to it and adding to it, and eventually (i.e. now) gets to be just too much effort... especially when nearby countries where the living is at least just as nice as Thailand offer much more facile visa maintenance.

Well, what a thread. I' will be my usual presumtious self and assume that Phillipinos will be exempt as far as t.v.'s as concerned (after all, it's no secret that unscrupulous agencies get away with paying half the salary they would have to pay qualified Native teachers -and here I am not saying that Phillipinos are unqualifed or useful, in fact they are exploited according to those I have met). That is the "teaching thing".

As others have mentioned, plenty of other options for those like myself,under 50 who just want a quiet life travelling/writing whatever. Phillipines,ironically, beginning to look good!

Heheh. See you there. March 1, 2008 for us: Me and the lady have our tickets for Manilla, and onward to a mountaintop villa in the city of Cagayan De Oro for half of what it would cost in the cheapest parts of Thailand... and best of all: NO MORE VISA RUNS ever again. (Oh: Drinks in the most expensive night club in town are 65 pesos... 50 baht.)

You allege that you are working and pumping millions of baht each year into Thailand, so why not apply for a non immigrant visa?

(1) Because I never planned on staying here forever, and didn't feel it necessary to go through the process of getting a long-term visa.

(2) Because my American company asked me not to, because they didn't want to know about, or get involved in what effect it would have on my tax status, disability, et cetera.

(3) Most simply, because, before, I could stay in Thailand for a long time on a tourist visa.

If you are not registered as working in Thailand (so whay are you here?) or not enough income or the company cannot meet the required imposed structure to qualify for a non immigrant visa, than you are a tourist and have no reason or wanted in the kingdom for more than 6 months.

I'm here because I'm on vacation... a very long vacation. I work on the internet while I'm on vacation. Also, because as long as I'm not in America, I qualify for the Overseas Tax Credit, which basically makes me tax-exempt.

I have long awaited the end for the visa runners in Thailand and hope that the reliable source is that RELIABLE and the mentioned new rules are imposed.

What? Were you abused by a visa runner as a child? Are you afraid that if you spend too much time around visa runners, you might become a visa runner too? Perhaps you should just pray to God for visa runners to give up their sinful ways, eh? Perhaps you could set up an ex-visa-runner ministry to bring them out of the darkness.

If you are planning a retirement in Thailand these jokers shouldn't be allowed to put you off. I'm here retired and have no problems with the rules. I read this site and tremble at the knees a little each time Visa renewal time comes around but never a problem. Meet the criteria, keep your head down and enjoy your retirement.

Obviously a retirement visa is a completely different subject, and has completely different requirements than a tourist visa... but my best friend is here on a retirement visa, and (although I can't remember specifically) he is always grumbling about how it is getting more and more difficult to maintain his retirement visa. (Something about the bank balance requirements, I think.)

A very large number of people here in Thailand (I mentioned before that I know two very rich Europeans specifically) are turning to the "Malaysia My Second Home" program and moving to Langkawi. (I don't remember the details of the program, but it is something like "buy a 2-million Ringgit home, and get a 10-year renewable visa".)

<snip> wanting to be more like Europe and North America with their immigration policies; and wanting to be seen as less of a place where "anybody" can go and live.

I was going to bow out of this thread figuring that I had annoyed enough people for one day . . . However, you're joking, right? More like North America???

I said "immigration policies", not "immigration practices" or "immigration accomplishments".

OK. But what good is a "policy" if you can't implement it? The only point of a policy is if you can effect something, and in the process not end up makings things worse rather than better.

Ha. "What good is a "policy" if you can't implement it?" That is pretty much the definition of politics. Thai people want a "first world" (for lack of a better word) immigration policy to make themselves feel better, more modern, more "first world."

What? You mean you think Thailand wants an immigration policy that is effective first and foremost? Surely you know Thailand and its desire for keeping up appearances better than that.

<snip> wanting to be more like Europe and North America with their immigration policies; and wanting to be seen as less of a place where "anybody" can go and live.

I was going to bow out of this thread figuring that I had annoyed enough people for one day . . . However, you're joking, right? More like North America???

I said "immigration policies", not "immigration practices" or "immigration accomplishments".

DO THAIS IN HIGH PLACES EVER READ THESE POSTS?

If they do, then even more reason to tighten the rules. There's no finer place than here to see what low end visitors are up to.

Hmm. Interesting way of putting it: "Low-end visitors." I wonder how you define that? I assume that since I'm one of the people staying long-term in Thailand on a tourist visa, I qualify as one of your "low-end visitors", but are you referring to poor people (I'm rich), or criminals (I'm not), those who don't integrate (I speak Thai quite well), or just scumbags in general?

Your comment exhibits the same short-sightedness that the Thai government is exhibiting: Namely, that tightening visa rules will only effect one type of foreigner, and either you have a very limited knowledge of what the expatriate population is like in Thailand, and its diversity and reasons for being here;

***inflammatory post removed***

thanks about the tip about the 16 months tourist visa...do i apply for it at home? best. frank.

No, you don't apply for it at home. You just go to any Philippine Immigration office with the same stamp that you got when you arrived at the airport, and ask for a 2-month extension. (Dress nicely.) The cost is, I believe, 3000 pesos (2700 baht) for a 2-month extension, and you can repeat this for up to 16 months.

(I haven't confirmed all the details yet, but I'm about 95% sure of what I just wrote. Anybody reading feel free to correct or clarify.)

WHY WASTE OUR MONEY which we would spend in thailand by making us fly back to our own countrys to get a visa? Why waste our money making us leave the country to go to another IE 500baht entrace fees into burma.

The money could be used for schools or hospitals etc...

I agree. If they want to chase off the "right" people, why not just make 3-month visa extensions at Immigration available for 20,000 baht? Costs about the same (or slightly less) than a visa run to Penang, and the Thai government gets all the money. I'd pay that with a smile on my face.

Well, as I said earlier in this thread: This isn't about getting rid of bad people as much as it is Thailand wanting to have more control over their immigrant population; wanting to be more like Europe and North America with their immigration policies; and wanting to be seen as less of a place where "anybody" can go and live.

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

Both have very little to offer compared to Thailand , why do you think this place is so much more popular ?

(1) The Philippines and Cambodia are cheaper than Thailand.

(2) The Philippines and Cambodia don't have the tough visa requirements of Thailand.

(3) The Philippines and Cambodia offer the same tropical and exotic living as Thailand.

(4) The Philippines and Cambodia are (currently) more welcoming to foreigners.

The law is the law and tourist visa's were not meant to be used for living in Thailand and the goverment has been very lax with the laws regarding this.

I agree. It was the relaxed visa rules that led me to move here in the first place. It was either here or Brazil, but Brazil requires you to fly home to your own country every 6 months. Hence, I came to Thailand. Since Thailand will soon be like Brazil, I'm moving on.

Want to live in Thailand , secure the correct visa to do so or go live in somewhere else.

I agree. That's what I'm doing.