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stingertale
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Posts posted by stingertale
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A man from Norway who speaks Thai helped the family of a Swedish woman who died on the beach at Cha-Am on the night of 14 November. I believe he assisted the family at the hospital that this woman Ann Nordh was taken to. The traumatized husband of this woman is looking to make contact with this man. If anyone knows who this might be and can help us get in contact with him or indeed if this man is reading now can you please get in contact with me.
If anyone elsle is aware of the FACTS associated with this tragedy can you please help us out. It is not clear what happened and the family is looking for an explanation and some closure. The authorities are suggesting drunken misadventure though this is denied by the family. Can you help? Did you see anything that night? Hear anything? Whispers, rumours, screams (if it was a box jellyfish the scream would be heard in Hua Hin), anything at all?
Thank-you!
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"this is a post from someone who has spent a hour on Google and now thinks he knows enough about the topic to stick in a post".
Diving instructor for 15 years and lived in nth QLd for 3 years.
Deeral seriously they can hunt but don't have a brain so cant tell the difference from food and non food. Please explain the 'thought process' here.
55 deaths per year WORLDWIDE is not a big problem. I am not being dismissive of those that are but every business governments included need to prioritize. Surely even deeral can see that.
And my point AGAIN was that it was sensationalism how the heading mentioned Thailand however the story mainly discussed Malaysia.
And stingertale please at least read the post. 55 deaths PER YEAR. You only make yourself look really silly having a go at a statement and misquoting it. Clown. Also my first line was about the poor guy and stated nothing in my post was about him. READ.
"there was a sting on Koh Pha ngan in September and a woman was stung by something resembling irukandji but suffered chironex like symptoms" Really that would be the only case of any one ever beng stung by irukandji and identifiing it. They are so small "Irukandji jellyfish are very small, with a bell about 5 millimetres (0.20 in) to 10 millimetres (0.39 in) and the "The sting itself is only moderately irritating; the severe syndrome is delayed for 5–120 minutes " so at the time of being stung (Or is that bitten Deeral?) you are unlikely to notice. So stingertale perhaps you would like to explain? Perhaps a case of mistaken Identity in the first place.
Finding out about jelly fish specifically in Thailand is difficult. There are 2 orders and six families of BOX jelly fish and the treatment for all is Vinegar and get medical treatment. I think it is safe to assume any BOX jelly fish that stings you in Thailand would be the same.
Bees kill more people in USA each year than sharks do world wide – I have been in the USA for over 9 months and never once saw a single sign about what to do in case of an "American" bee sting. Cover up?
G
G whiz .. i am gobbsmacked ..safe to assume hey hmmmmm safe to assume well there goes your credibility in 3 simple words .. diving instructor 3 yrs nth QLD, safe to assume with diving is it G? remind me not to go anywhere near your diving business .. 55 deaths per year is what you stated as fact in the first place without any reference and I simply questioned this as I have not seen this statistic and would like to know who collected this information and prepared this statistic for you to so readily quote as fact when we are talking all countries and remote places throughout the Indo-Pacific where G is this from? Now G please enlighten us all about Irukandji and how this would be the only case of self ID - really? - I am laughing as heartily as a clown now because this is a joke surely, have a closer look G at the cubozoan taxonomy from wiki you so readily threw at us like you have all your other obscure google know-it-all facts and ask the experts and learn a bit about Irukandji - yes there is a species around 10mm but there are others, big ones, those that did the damage at Langkawi were big Irukandji - confirmed by experts - no research has been done here so no-one is sure what is out there, new species of animals get discovered all the time, box jellyfish are not excluded, the victim on Koh Pha ngan received a bell sting also typically from carebdea/irukandji, the lesions were typical big Irukandji, the symptoms as you so eloquently quote from google were not typical they were like a big Chironex, ok? btw, your bee analogy says it all .. unbelievable! Any box jellyfish in Thailand that stings you is the same - what on earth? diving instructor? apiarist? pm me G and I will send you a scientific article on the different types of nematocysts in cubozoans as unfortunately you won't find with your google search habit .. the mind boggles ..
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Indeed Graeme64 if you've bored yourself imagine how we feel .. I think if you'd read through the entire thread you'd see that the 'attack' ref is rubbish so thanks for that anyway, you are right about tour operators protecting their business as everyone knows, your billy connelly sketch bit is crap and why make fun of people thinking to keep a bottle of vinegar by their towel/sarong on the sand along with their bottle of water and a book, to comment on the husband of the deceased in this manner is just downright disrespectful and idiotic, get your facts right 55 deaths worldwide in 100 years - rubbish, where did you pull this from? 1 guess. But yes the risk is minimal, no denial, not the point. Few people between 14-55 killed hey? Where does this great fact come from? Again rubbish. Deeral makes sensible points unlike you. Finding out about box jellyfish specifically in Thailand is very difficult. Please name all the internet sites relating to box jellyfish in Thailand? The difference between motorbike safety, mini buses, high balconies etc is we know about these things from our experience in our home countries, sure there are variations here in Thailand but the risk is wel known so awareness is high and prevention can be initiated; no-one it seems knows much if anything about box jellyfish, so helpful posters like Deeral can enlighten as opposed to belittle. Thanks for the wiki taxonomy, anything in there about specific Thai species? No. None have been identified and classed, they are all different, there was a sting on Koh Pha ngan in September and a woman was stung by something resembling irukandji but suffered chironex like symptoms - please explain G?
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This is terribly sad news no matter if you think box jellyfish are a problem in Thailand or not. I have commented a fair bit over the past few years on this subject having been caught up first hand in a life-threatening box jellyfish sting in Thailand. There appear to be plenty of experts offering advice on the topic which is fair enough though potentially dangerous. Someone said that rubbing sand on the stings is a good idea - well, rubbing sand on the sting of a 11 year old Swedish girl on Koh Lanta a few years ago is probably what killed her. There are several species of box jellyfish. The big one is the Chironex species (in Australia it is Chironex fleckeri, in Thailand it is slightly different, as it is in the Philippines etc) and someone here also said if it wraps its tentacles around you then you will drown - for god's sake it's not an octopus or giant squid; Chironex is THE most venomous animal on the planet. A snake or spider will kill you in a matter of hours, this jellyfish will do it in minutes or seconds and it does not have more than 5000 stinging cells per tentacle, it has around 1000000 per 1cm of tentacle. And if you are stung you need to pour vinegar on the tentacles BEFORE you pull them off (or more cells are injected) and you must do this for at least 30 seconds ( = big bottle!).
Here are some facts that are on a blog on the topic http://thaiboxjellyfish.blogspot.com/2010/06/weird-wonderful-and-wobbly-box.html
There are probably more Scandinavian visitors to Thailand getting injured or killed in traffic accidents, drownings, food poisonings, etc etc than box jellyfish so they probably feel they have no obligation to pass information on to their customers. But as is evident here on this forum and all over is that there is huge ignorance regarding box jellyfish. People know about traffic, most about swimming, tasting/sensing rancid food etc but not these jellyfish that are a real threat, they are in the water, they do not get washed up like other jellyfish because they have vision and can swim to avoid floating to shore, just like they can avoid human legs and most often do. Knowing about them, being aware, understanding the risk, taking proper precautions where required - what is wrong with this? This approach works in Australia and tourism is still booming. The government in Thailand is limited by resources as they put their money into bigger issues with big kill counts. They do make an effort, though a bigger one is required. Doctors will do as they are instructed and they need to be educated. Resort owners need to take responsibility also in increasing awareness.
In Langkawi Malaysia in July this year around 200 tourists were hospitalised with irukandji stings (a type of box jellyfish also in Thailand). This is a problem that will not go away and may well increase, statistics are suggesting this, Swedish tour operators and all those mentioned here need to be honest and upfront - there are deadly box jellyfish in Thailand, they are not a big problem in fact lethal stings are relatively rare, but it happens and people die and get badly injured every year, "this is what you need to know......" They will still come.
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I have read an interview with the woman's husband and he claims that the Thai authorities have asked him not to speak about the tragic accident with the Swedish media as it would discourage tourists from coming to Thailand.
Last year a 45 year old Swedish woman was stung to death in Langkawi and despite the woman had tentacles on her legs the Malaysian doctor wrote death by drowning in the death certificate. The deceased husband has tried to change that without success.
One must assume that the tourist authorities both here and in Malaysia would like to see as little as possible mentioned about box jellyfish in the media.
can you tell me where i can read the interview with the victim's husband please - thanks
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http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?coun_code=se&news_id=7729
Reports in the Swedish media are that a 59 year old Swedish woman was found dead in the water at Cha-Am on 14 November and that this was possibly due to box jellyfish sting. Tragic news and terrible discovery by her husband. Cause of death according to reports as yet unknown but if jellyfish is being suggested perhaps sting lesions were seen on the woman's body. Does anyone in this area know anything more about this tragedy? Was a box jellyfish sighted and were stings marks noticed? It would be good to get some facts at this stage to create a clearer picture. Thanks
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Actually, the Aftonbladet never said it was a box jellyfish, only a stinger they said. It is unlikely it was a box jellyfish because the Swedish fireman who gave the young girl CPR removed the tentacles with his bare hands and had it been a box jellyfish he would have gotten bad burns himself, which he didn't.
It is more likely to have been a Portuguese Man of War.
Thank you for clearing that up.
An earlier poster's comparison with calculated risks and flying is clearly rubbish as has been pointed out - with every flight we are taken through a safety process preparing us for that incredibly rare instance of the plane falling out of the sky. In South East Asia it is thought that around 200 are killed by box jellyfish every year. Around the world 4 or 5 are killed by sharks. No need to compare anything - a life is a life.
Talk about making statistics up! 200 people die a year of jellyfish stings in SEA!!
You have far more chance of being attacked by a drunk Swede in a Koh Mak bar than you have of a jellyfish. So perhaps the bar owners there display warning signs about that!
It's a rubbery figure that's for sure but it comes from Dr Jamie Seymour who is a box jellyfish specialist/marine biologist at James Cook University in Cairns, Australia. It's apparently based on an extensive study conducted by doctors Williamson and Fenner through the region in the 1980s and ongoing but sporadic reports from the region. I am told that in the Philippines there are anywhere up to 50 deaths a year, Indonesia is another place with a lot of people and jellyfish - I saw something recently that mentioned 3 deaths in 6 weeks around Java recently - while of course Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, New Guinea and East Timor must make up the numbers the expert has come up with.
I don't think they're just made up but fair point.
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I sense a 'save the jellyfish' campaign coming on...please! Have a look at the biology, ecology and habitat of a box jellyfish and you'll soon realize that no matter what we do they are going to keep on coming - an adult box jellyfish has the reproductive potential to produce 1 - 1.5 million offspring in its 3-4 month life and they all love what we're doing to the sea with pollution and nutrification.
Suggesting that foreigners have a right to erect signs in Thailand is arrogant in itself - it is the Thai government and Thai tourism and hospitality authorities that are considering signage in Thailand. They will listen to foreigners requests, maybe, but that is that.
Indeed voracious that is a measured response and seems to be the sensible way to go. Have vinegar handy at the beach - a box jellyfish will kill in seconds or minutes - and have the barman or receptionist or whoever versed in some pretty basic knowledge ... hear scream, grab vinegar, call for help, apply vinegar to sting, perhaps provide lifesupport. In all likelihood it will not happen but what harm is there in being prepared?
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Actually, the Aftonbladet never said it was a box jellyfish, only a stinger they said. It is unlikely it was a box jellyfish because the Swedish fireman who gave the young girl CPR removed the tentacles with his bare hands and had it been a box jellyfish he would have gotten bad burns himself, which he didn't.
It is more likely to have been a Portuguese Man of War.
Thank you for clearing that up.
This jellyfish was without any doubt a Chironex type box jellyfish as evidenced by the circumstances and the stings on the girl's legs being linear and whip-like (see Aftonbladet article). I have removed box jellyfish tentacles from a quivvering little leg before (at the same beach as this girl on Koh Mak 2 years ago) and I was OK - unfortunately though doing this shoots millions more stinging cells into the victim's body. The Swedish fireman is a hero and most definitely saved this girl's life with his quick thinking and calm approach to call for vinegar (right thing to do!) and apply CPR (ditto!).
Thailand's government is right onto this - hence the call from MoPH epidemiologists to a pervious poster. Surveillance and monitoring systems are being implemented as well as safety and awareness processes which involve education and signage (probably more subtle than in Australia). There are also other groups actively working towards making the beaches safer.
An earlier poster's comparison with calculated risks and flying is clearly rubbish as has been pointed out - with every flight we are taken through a safety process preparing us for that incredibly rare instance of the plane falling out of the sky. In South East Asia it is thought that around 200 are killed by box jellyfish every year. Around the world 4 or 5 are killed by sharks. No need to compare anything - a life is a life.
While also numbers of deaths are misleading with this problem because most survive a box jellyfish sting. But they experience incredible trauma as do their family, witnesses and of course those who are forced to save their life. It takes about 2m of tentacle to kill an adult (much less for a child increasing chances of more child fatalities) but even a few centimetres hurts like nothing else.
This blog provides information on box jellyfish in Thailand
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yes two tourist deaths are bad....
and yes (before people slate me for being a cold-hearted idiot) losing life at ANY time is awful...
BUT!!!!
considering the number of tourist deaths per year that are caused by alternative means in Thailand - be it the knife, the motorbike, the drink etc.... then maybe it's best for the tourism industry in general if these jellyfish stories do remain hush-hush.....
don't get me wrong..... I'm a warm, loving individual (who doesn't work in tourism, but has many friends who do) - but I also feel that the type of blind panic that these types of irresponsible ramblings can produce is often far greater than is necessary....
if NBTTV was a proud citizen who truly cared about the state of Thailand in general, then he / she would have kept quiet about the story as opposed to leaping on it and trying to garner extra points by getting everyone to log on and provide more hits on their website.....
Good post, I agree.
In Phuket they have found these in the murky waters by mangroves where nobody swims..........
Jet ski accidents? Boating accidents? Why when they publish these "box jellyfish deaths" they do not say "compared though to so many motorbike deaths these still remain insignificant". or something like that anyways.......
Obviously I don't have enough time to read all threads and posts and opinions about this issue of box jellyfish and these last 2 posts passed me by at the time. I cannot however let Waterworks and his/her chum Huggybear have the last say on this thread with such cold, calculated, insensitive and misguided sentiments.
"Before people slate me..." "But..." Don't get me wrong..." "I'm a warm, loving individual" my eye! Your point about keeping this "hush hush" for the greater good of Thailand is pure ignorance and inexcusable to say the least. Anyone who views a problem in terms of the number of victims is IMO a sad, sad individual lacking compassion who has no idea about the bigger picture. Anyone who blindly agrees and treats deaths v deaths like it were a football match is even more irrelevant.
And let's get one thing straight, this box jellyfish issue has only recently been acknowledged as a potential problem in Thailand. Like so many issues around the world that have just been discovered, there is certain to be a level of ignorance and misinformation that will settle as the facts shine through and people learn more about the problem, how to cope, what to do. While there has been lots of activity on this subject from the media I'm not aware of 'blind panic' and 'irresponsible ramblings' except in your posts.
Waterworks and Huggybear, hypothetical: a family member or friend of yours is stung and killed by a box jellyfish - unlikley but possible - would you sweep it under the carpet? Think of the damage you might cause the tourism industry and quickly move on? Ahhh, ignorance is bliss eh?
Thankfully the Thai and Australian governments have not listened to the word of Waterworks and Huggybear and recognise that box jellyfish do pose a risk to anyone in the water and the tourism industry and have invested in a research program to determine the scale of the problem, produce meaningful data and create a prevention/treatment system that will ensure that Thailand's coast is safer for all for a long time to come. This will hopefully save some lives, maybe yours, and as data suggests that the jellyfish problem is increasing worldwide, hopefully ensure that tourists will continue to see Thailand as an attractive holiday destination. Long term, this has to be good for tourism.
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An international team based in Australia including American jellyfish expert Dr Lisa-ann Gershwin held a series of workshops and seminars while also conducting fieldwork around Phuket and Koh Lanta in early April 2009.
Working closely with the Phuket Marine Biological Centre, the team addressed Thai marine biologists and fisheries reps, public health and tourism authority officials from dozens of coastal provinces, and numerous Consular officials, private hospital and travel/hospitality reps detailing scientific, medical and general facts about box jellyfish and irukandji in Thailand.
It is clear that the problem is more widespread than the 'official' fatality number of 4 western tourists in 10 years from large box jellyfish. There is also strong evidence of symptoms of Irukandji syndrome reported in many locations though closer monitoring to recognize these symptoms has to be undertaken at a local hospital/clinic level to ascertain the extend of this. Large irukandji called Morbakka exist in Thai waters and these animals have been associated with fatalities and serious envenomation in other countries. Also, aside from the injuries and death it has inflicted there is other clear evidence of a large chironex type box jellyfish in Thailand much like the species in Australia that is known to be the most venomous animal on the planet.
Proper testing/sampling will be undertaken in strategic locations around Thailand to get a better indication of the scope of the issue which is at this moment unknown (biology, ecology, etc). Also a close bilateral program is being actioned to further progress local knowledge and assist with implementing an effective safety and education system.
In the meantime, make sure that vinegar is available when at the beach or off-shore (carry a bottle or ask the boat, hotel, bungalows etc to get some) just in case - the risk it is assumed is minimal but it just might pay to invest in a bottle (it also works on non-lethal jellyfish).
Dr Gershwin recommend's the following treatment:
Here's what's right according to scientific research:
1. Vinegar stops the undischarged stinging cells of box jellies and Irukandjis from being able to discharge. This is an instant and permanent effect. It works equally well with all colours and flavours of household vinegar, but less well with other types or concentrations of acids.
2. Vinegar causes discharge of stinging cells of some other types of jellyfish species -- all but one of these are known to be non-harmful compared to the box jellies and Irukandjis. Thus, causing discharge of these is of little medical consequence, whereas inhibiting discharge of box jellies and Irukandjis may save a life. The one that IS discharged by vinegar and is harmful is incredibly rare, having been last recorded in (I think, from memory) 1994.
3. Vinegar does not stop pain from stings. It stops further injury by stopping additional venom from entering the body. This may be critical in borderline envenomation cases.
4. Freshwater causes all marine stinging cells to discharge through a process called osmotic action. This simply involves molecular uptake of H2O across the salinity gradient and across the cell wall, until the nematocyst (= stinging cell) ruptures, with the typical weakest point being the capsule operculum (lid). If the stinging cells happen to be facing toward your skin when this happens (likely if they have been left there by a jellyfish), then penetration through the skin (and injection of venom) is likely.
5. Heat causes capillary dilation, which is thought to potentially increase both the speed and amount of venom uptake. This could be critical in borderline envenomation cases.
6. Heat reduces pain through various neurological processes in the body, not through venom denaturation, as is commonly thought. Jellyfish venoms denature rapidly at 60 degrees C. At lower temperatures, venom denaturation would take longer than the venom would remain at the sting site, particularly if capillary dilation were acting to transfer the venom into the blood stream.
The current recommendation from the Australian Resuscitation Council is (paraphrased):
1. For any known or suspected box jellyfish or Irukandji sting, use vinegar.
2. For any TROPICAL sting of unknown origin, use vinegar.
3. For CONFIRMED bluebottle stings OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, rinse well with seawater, then immerse in 45 degree C water for 20 minutes; if 45 degree C water for 20 minutes is unavailable or the temperature cannot be safely regulated, rinse well with seawater then use ice for the pain.
4. For unknown stings OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, rinse well with seawater then use ice for the pain.
In other words, in the tropics, use vinegar. For boxies and Irukandjis, use vinegar. In Thailand, use vinegar. Outside the tropics only use hot water if you know for sure it is a blue bottle (not because there's anything peculiar about blue bottles and hot water, just because the Australian bluebottle, Physalia utriculus, is highly unlikely to kill, and causes tens of thousands of stings per year along temperate Australian beaches).
Would love to hear from SimonSubsonic and those stings off Lamai if possible.
Womble, big box jellyfish swim at around 3-4 knots which is probably as fast as you plus they have visual sensors providing them with directional navigation - they normally try and avoid obstacles such as you and I - and there's evidence that they have an afternoon nap on the seafloor (though the Thais in 2002 wouldn't have known that).
Morning glory is also a remedy used by Australian aborigines and others in the Indo-Pacific though it is believed to be a mild analgesic relieving pain and does not stop the sting cells from firing - BTW, each tentacle has millions & millions of stinging cells with each firing at 40,000Gs to inject the lethal cardiotoxin.
There was also a well intentioned but incorrect post here saying that the Phangan 2002 deaths were allergic reactions or anaphylaxis and the 2008 death at Lanta was also attributed to this; however, this is wrong and unheard of scientifically (actually there have been 2 allergic deaths from jellyfish that were not box jellyfish, 1 was a dog and the other a Greek princess). The venom from a box jellyfish is the most toxic known to man and it is what kills and kills very quickly.
The risk of getting stung is not high but if it happens you're probably dead in a few minutes. There was also a box jellyfish fatality on Samui in 1999 (British tourist, Chaweng beach) and there have been sightings in the area. Perhaps a good beachgoing habit is to carry a bottle of vinegar just in case.
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To get the latest facts on treating jellyfish stings in Thailand follow this link
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2664851
The bottom line is forget all this stuff about scraping tentacles with cards, urinating on stings, morning glory paste when it comes to immediate treatment to stop the stinging, the only thing to use is VINEGAR.
Have some handy when you're next at the beach or on a boat.
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This should go a fair way in answering questions of what treatment and why for what jellyfish and where according to an Australian marine stinger scientist:
"Here's what's right according to scientific research:
1. Vinegar stops the undischarged stinging cells of box jellies and Irukandjis from being able to discharge. This is an instant and permanent effect. It works equally well with all colours and flavours of household vinegar, but less well with other types or concentrations of acids.
2. Vinegar causes discharge of stinging cells of some other types of jellyfish species -- all but one of these are known to be non-harmful compared to the box jellies and Irukandjis. Thus, causing discharge of these is of little medical consequence, whereas inhibiting discharge of box jellies and Irukandjis may save a life. The one that IS discharged by vinegar and is harmful is incredibly rare, having been last recorded in (I think, from memory) 1994.
3. Vinegar does not stop pain from stings. It stops further injury by stopping additional venom from entering the body. This may be critical in borderline envenomation cases.
4. Freshwater causes all marine stinging cells to discharge through a process called osmotic action. This simply involves molecular uptake of H2O across the salinity gradient and across the cell wall, until the nematocyst (= stinging cell) ruptures, with the typical weakest point being the capsule operculum (lid). If the stinging cells happen to be facing toward your skin when this happens (likely if they have been left there by a jellyfish), then penetration through the skin (and injection of venom) is likely.
5. Heat causes capillary dilation, which is thought to potentially increase both the speed and amount of venom uptake. This could be critical in borderline envenomation cases.
6. Heat reduces pain through various neurological processes in the body, not through venom denaturation, as is commonly thought. Jellyfish venoms denature rapidly at 60 degrees C. At lower temperatures, venom denaturation would take longer than the venom would remain at the sting site, particularly if capillary dilation were acting to transfer the venom into the blood stream.
The current recommendation from the Australian Resuscitation Council is (paraphrased):
1. For any known or suspected box jellyfish or Irukandji sting, use vinegar.
2. For any TROPICAL sting of unknown origin, use vinegar.
3. For CONFIRMED bluebottle stings OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, rinse well with seawater, then immerse in 45 degree C water for 20 minutes; if 45 degree C water for 20 minutes is unavailable or the temperature cannot be safely regulated, rinse well with seawater then use ice for the pain.
4. For unknown stings OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, rinse well with seawater then use ice for the pain.
In other words, in the tropics, use vinegar. For boxies and Irukandjis, use vinegar. In Thailand, use vinegar. Outside the tropics only use hot water if you know for sure it is a blue bottle (not because there's anything peculiar about blue bottles and hot water, just because the Australian bluebottle, Physalia utriculus, is highly unlikely to kill, and causes tens of thousands of stings per year along temperate Australian beaches)."
Dr. Lisa-ann Gershwin
Director, Australian Marine Stinger Advisory Services
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Here's an article about the use of hot water on jellyfish stings that might clarify its place in the treatment process.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Bluebo...0563843818.html
It says at the end that with box jellyfish victims AFTER vinegar is applied that hot water could offer pain relief in non life threatening cases.
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Global warming and jellyfish blooms (and throw in a bit of over fishing, serious pollution and nutrification of the seas) is an interesting discussion but back to the specific issue of box jellyfish in Thailand.
I'm curious to know FarangCravings about these few experiments that lately have been reporting good results. Can you please post a link to these reports? Or if not possible can you provide detail as to what it is exactly the hot water is treating (neutralizing sting cells?), how hot is the water expected to be in degrees celsius, what species of jellyfish are responding to this treatment and does it include cubozoan or box jellyfish?
In your 20 years have you had to treat a box jellyfish sting and if so when, where, what treatment did you render and any follow ups on the victims?
Windex is of course ammonia based with lashings of solvents and alcohol and what-not. Ammonia if applied to a box jellyfish sting within minutes of contact can be fatal to the victim. Urine if pH balance is alkaline and not acidic can also be dangerous as both these liquids can trigger the stinging cells to fire as opposed to neutralizing them.
Perhaps we should establish some facts before trying hot water and in the meantime stick with the tried and true and scientifically proven to effectively neutralize 100% of nematocysts (stinging cells) on a box jellyfish tentacle (of which there are around 1000000 every 10mm) and potentially save a life: vinegar - household, balsamic whatever you have handy.
If a sting occurs:
1. Ensure the water is safe for the rescuer
2. Check vital signs and perform CPR if needed
3. Splash stings with vinegar asap for 30-60 seconds
4. Seek medical help
Lets not forget that unlike any other species of jellyfish such as portuguese man o war and fire jellyfish, the big multi-tentacle box jellyfish is the most venomous animal on the planet that has killed victims in Thailand in less than 3 minutes. If you're going to treat a sting from the these things get it right and get it right real quick.
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A team from Australia visited Phuket last week holding meetings and conducting workshops and seminars on the subject of box jellyfish and irukandjis in Thailand.
The visit of the Australian team was a success for both the Thais and the team that will go a long way in achieving real results in box jellyfish awareness, education, research and safety. There is no quick fix (except vinegar when at the beach) and those looking for a quick tick and cross for every beach will be disappointed.
While there are plenty of similarities between the Australian and Thai situations there are also many differences creating challenges that require special effort.
The classic box jellyfish habitat in northern Australia is not necessarily the same as that in Thailand, though the land/seascape looks the same. For instance, beach near mangrove to put it simply is the Australian experience yet in Thailand numerous stings including 3 farang fatalities have occured in areas not unlike the west of Phuket such as Chaeweng Beach and Koh Phangan, plus a Koh Mak beach where there is no mangrove for miles. The river at Chalong Bay for example would be completely out of bounds in Australia because if a croc didn't get you then a boxie would. Yet, there's no reported history of stings here.
2 days of intensive workshops brought Thai marine biologists and fisheries officials plus a Malaysian contingent up to speed with research details (ID, sampling techniques, etc), a 1 day seminar on the situation emphasizing prevention/treatment was well attended by health officials from dozens of coastal provinces, Phuket hospital reps and TAT people while a 1/2 day seminar filled in the blanks for tour operators, hotel reps and consuls from 5 countries.
The message is that much research needs to be done all around Thailand to get a clearer picture on what exactly is causing the serious envenomations and where they are. For this end there will be 5 marine centres actively sampling for specimens in myriad locations. In the meantime, safety is a priority and the same applies - always carry vinegar and if in doubt wear a lycra suit.
Aside from box jellyfish, irukandjis took up much time and energy as there are enough indicators to suggest that they too exist in Thai waters. Dr Gershwin who headed the visit is the world expert in this field and having discovered a wrongly identified species in a reference collection bottle also noted the presence of biological indicators (salps and sea lice) plus anecdotal evidence typical of irukandji type syndrome. Much testing needs to be done on this before more facts are established so much of this is just educated guess work. It's also important to note that irukandji has been found as far afield as Wales and Melbourne and only reportedly caused 2 deaths but the pain is apparently prolonged and like nothing else and it tends to more abundant in the tropics.
There seems to be a real commitment to address this issue as best as possible before another tragedy with a concerted exchange of knowledge and personnel over the oncoming months.
To date the method of capturing big box jellyfish has not worked because the animal is too 'intelligent' and too quick. But, watch this space as the Thais employ effective methods to capture specimens and a clearer picture is established.
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Have just seen this & warn everyone DO NOT FOLLOW THE ADVICE ON TREATING A BOX JELLYFISH STING offered in this article!!
Not sure if this is the advice of the good doctor or TV station but the following is wrong and dangerous "Tourism operators in the area had been advised to take special precautions, and to prepare first-aid items to treat any stings. Anyone who is stung by jellyfish is advised to use a flat, smooth card to scrape the skin at the site of the infection and rinse with seawater, not freshwater, before seeing a doctor immediately. Vinegar is also suggested to relieve the pain."
If this has been forwarded to tour operators in the area then God help the next box jellyfish victim left at their mercy.
Note that scraping the sting with a card or sand will fire the stinging cells or nematocysts on the tentacles and inject more venom into the victim - this will most certainly kill the victim.
Here is what to do:
1. Check the area as best as possible to ensure safety of rescuer
2. Check vital signs and perform CPR if necessary
3. Splash household vinegar on the stings for at least 30 seconds (this immediately stops the nematocysts from firing but does not relieve the pain)
4. Seek medical assistance (preferrably not that from the good doctor!)
While we are at, tripedelia cystophora is not deadly at all, it is a box jellyfish but it is harmless.
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In tropical Australia, the sea is effectively out of bounds during the wet season, but is ok during the dry. I believe there has never been a fatality in June/July, which would be the seasonal equivalent to Jan/Feb in Thailand.
A problem I see with this is that as this is apparently a new situation for the waters of Thailand... making an assessment of when their plentiful season is and when it isn't is very questionable. If they've never had a "season" here, it is very difficult to gauge just when their "high" and "low" seasons are.
Certainly more data needs to be accumulated before making an accurate assessment.
It's not actually a new problem it's just that the problem is news. Who knows how many people have been killed by box jellyfish in Thailand as the health system is not set up to handle it. The only known reported deaths are all tourists - a 26 year old British man at Chaweng Beach Koh Samui in October 1999, an Australian male and Swiss female Koh Phangan 2002 and Swedish girl Koh Lanta April 2008 - and no Thais. No fishermen. No kids running into the sandy shallows where box jellyfish tend to habitate. No one.
In the Philippines where box jellyfish are also found there is an estimate of around 90 deaths a year. Last month there was a reported death in Malaysia. Certainly in Thailand there are more than meet the eye.
Australian box jellyfish experts are working with Thai counterparts to find out more about the ecology, the distribution and the danger but it will take time and money (whose?) to get a grip on the situation. Which it seems is in all likelihood like that of Thailand's neighbours where countless numbers of people swim or use the water and a relatively small but significant enough number are actually killed.
In the meantime do what the marine biologists and their families do, wear a stinger suit.
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Stylish look. Just right for the beach:
Unfortunately we can't all look like a glowing Sean Connery and Ursula Andress when on the beach but when it comes to practical protection and safety atire at the beach - wetsuits, life jackets, etc - stinger suits are not a fashion accessory and will stop all jellyfish stings (plenty of other marine stingers than boxies about). Most kids here in Australia get around wearing similar outfits at the beach even when no jellyfish because of dangerous UV levels so it's a look that was a bit silly when first introduced but taken for granted now.
My son had a lycra shirt and speedos bathing suit bottom on when he was struck and when I pulled him out of the water he had tentacles on his ankles, thighs and torso but the latter was protected which may well have been the difference between life and death.
The chances of getting stung are minimal but it happens and the pics at post #7 are how you would look if you survive a sting:
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I had a sting on the hip by a mang-gapung Jelly fish 5 years ago on a visit to Cha-am, I still have the scar. It resulted in widespread swelling of my middle parts causing much amusement amongst the pretty nurses who treated me, buffalo preportions!
2 years ago I returned to Cha-am and severed the tendon below my knee on a broken bottle in the sea, putting me on crutches for 2 months.
After this Deadly Box thread, I'm limiting my swimming to the pools and lakes of Chiang Rai!
looks like you should avoid Cha-am, I think I'll start selling Stinger suits in Thailand, anyone need one. These are fullbody lycra suits, we make them for the Australian market.
So I suppose a long sleeve nylon/spandex rash guard shirt and long board shorts would be decent protection as well. Have that already, but thanks for the offer.
Long sleeve rashy and board shorts are better than nothing but the big box jellyfish are more prevalent in shallow sandy bottom water (they breed in the mangroves then disperse hunting food) and can be be 'fishing' when someone unsuspectingly walks into a tentacle or 2 and they'll tangle around your ankle and legs.
The ideal protection (UV also!) is obviously full body suit, not necessarily a good look but you just have to wear it in the water and can bake on the beach as usual.
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Almost seems like a classic forum tag team, although I'm sure it's not the case. You get someone else to bring up your site/article/software or whatever it is and make it seem like an unassociated 3rd party. However, usually the giveaway is someone will have a newbie status. Again I'm not saying this is the case, but if it looks like a duck,walks like a duck................
I'm not saying this is the case, but no matter how many 'almost seems', 'not sure's' and 'not saying its' you throw in, this is an accusation by design.
The issue's in the news and whatever you make of it it is of interest and I would imagine that there are many out there, newbie or not, that are allowed to comment and express their view without someone undermining them with a conspiracy theory.
If it looks like sh*t, smells like sh*t and tastes like sh*t................it must be a durian.
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My 5 year old son was stung by a big multi-tentacle box jellyfish in the shallows of Koh Mak last December 3 days after a group of swimmers on the same beach outside the Koh Mak Resort were also stung including a young girl. My son suffered cardiac and respiratory arrest and within seconds was unconscious without vital signs on the sand. Quick thinking from staff at our resort got vinegar on the stings (including mine - careful if you have to retreive a victim from the sea as the rescuer is likely to get stung also!) and by some miracle he survived. No one warned us of the potential danger yet all the locals knew of the problem and the seriousness if stung. This behaviour is crazy and downright dangerous! I warned other swimmers a few hours later of the risk and most had a quick look, couldn't see anything and kept swimming and snorkeling - note: experts say that you'll see their shadow before you see them and if there's one there'll be many.
I have spent much time following this up and can relate a few things based on my exchanges with numerous experts...
the box jellyfish in Thailand are indigenous and there will be numerous species
pollution and nutrification of the sea increases food source of box jellyfish inturn increasing numbers
lack of predator numbers (turtles) and global warming might have some effect though presumed to be minimal
if someone dies from a sting it is the venom that kills not an allergic reaction or anaphylaxis
splash vinegar on the tentacles to neutralize the stinging cells (I ripped the bloody things off my son's leg which injects more venom..)
the morning glory plant relieves pain and has been used by Australian aborigines to treat jellyfish stings for ages
chironex fleckeri is the main killer in Australia, it has a relative in the Philippines (about 50 deaths a year) and I saw a similar one off the coast of Koh Lanta in June
the poor Swedish girl who was killed in April received wounds that are characteristic of this species
Clearly there are deadly box jellyfish on both sides of Thailand and proper caution should be exercised if you believe the risk warrants it. Many do, many don't.
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While box jellyfish are not common in Thailand waters they do exist and are an ever present danger. My 4 year old son was stung by a box jellyfish on Ko Mak in December 2007. His breathing and heart stopped. After a few minutes he came back to life - no-one is sure why seeing he had received such massive envenomation. He was lucky. Anaphylactic shock is not uncommon and allergic reactions to bees and peanuts and a heap of other things are not as rare as many people think. I understand that allergic reactions of this nature to a box jellyfish sting is not a surprising occurrence. Some experts in Australia believe the problem in Thailand is only going to get worse - more pollution and nutrients in the warmer/warming water increases food for box jellyfish that increases box jellyfish survival and numbers (3 month life span of 1 jellyfish produces up to 1,000,000 offspring - each mature jelly carries enough toxin to kill 60 people - scary horror movie stuff in one respect but the facts tell the story). As more tourists venture futher afield in search of that peaceful, untouristed paradise they could inadvertantly be heading straight into box jellyfish territory. This is a sad situation and I really feel for the family, friends and all who are associated with this poor young girl.
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Mods please delete
I can't see anything in TV forum rules to suggest that this post/thread be deleted unless oldoldgit posted something untoward that has been wiped and replaced with these words (??)
If its because the thread is a few months old and has just been restarted then fine, I'll start another thread as I believe this is an issue worthy of discussion. Isn't that what a forum is all about?
Are Swedish Tour Operators Covering Up The Threat Of Deadly Jellyfish In Thailand
in Thailand News
Posted
Well meaning and some good points though I think you have to be careful when you say Thailand and Australia can't be compared then launch into box jellyfish comparisons with these other animals and balcony and jet ski incidents. Actually Australia was much where Thailand is now way back in the 1960s - a lot of work went into making northern Australia and its water-users safer. As you know those signs in Australia are mainly of a stick human being 'attacked' by jellies and while you are funny the Thais that would design and oversee the sign-making are smart English-speaking people and should not be underestimated (i'm being polite to you khun sysardman). Dye in Australian beach vinegar prevents any thievery or otherwise. And yes 'they' could organise that. Please let us know about the scorpian and snake etc fatalities as obviously there is a need for another thread and investigation from authorities and a concerted effort to promote awareness. Death from box jellyfish is very different to falling from a balcony or bungee jump or fast moving jetski - making people aware of box jellyfish is different - prevention and treatment is very specific - jetskis are simply another matter entirely and I believe you unnecessarily muddy the waters when you mix issues.