ForestGardener

drtreelove: curiously, I know it the other way round - 'knitbone'. Apparently been in use for fractures for aeons. Had some in London, good ground cover plant and an attractive tight growth pattern. When I gripped a leaf I could feel a numbing effect in the finger and thumb for some time after. Did you notice the same? [Ajuga reptans, toadflax, does the same but less so]. Definitely has a medicinal, and probably a poison value depending on how it's administered. Didn't know it was good for fertiliser.

Wagner54: thanks for the extra info. Could be smaller 'cos of soil and possibly they like it cooler(???) Will ask you for a cutting some time in the future if I may. I'm always looking for organic fertilisers, mainly because I don't want to pay inflated prices for something that works for less than a month [chemical fertilisers] when I can use dung which does as well for three years. Thought, would guess it needs to be well composted before use else it would propogate all over the place when spread as fertiliser(???)

Euca

Not a problem to get a few cuttings, like I said before in a couple a years I will have plenty of them. And your spot on about composting it first because in the the fresh form you would have comfrey plants coming up everywhere that you tilled it in.

Hi Wagner54

Can i ask what kind of Comfrey you have? What i understand it is extremely invasive. I read that most of people that are into permaculture use

Russian Comfrey (Symphytum x uplandicum)"bocking 14" because it´s sterile.

Fascinating post, I'm very interested with the outcome of your project, and the richness of info coming along.

To take a break from all the technical data being brought up from the shelves, I'd like to repeat what a friend just recently told me :

Around Chantanaburi, there is at least one such 'fruit garden'. People pay a cover charge of 200B, and then can eat as much as they can enjoy ! My friend told me the place is huge, they even have a golf cart to help you visit the place, and every body wa shaving a lot of fun.

I don't know wether this is the kind of place you have in mind.

This is a great idea for farmers who want to diversify their income, and may be couple that with homestay.

As a landscape architect, I am personnaly very interested into that idea, and will be going on a short investigation trip over there shortly (I love investigating fresh fruits ! ^^). May be this week-end.

++ ^^

Hi sunsamourai

That place sounds intresting. I tried to google on internet but find only Horticultural Research Centre.

Do you think that could be the place?

Horticultural Research Centre (ศูนย์วิจัยพืชสวน) located on Sukhumwit Road in Tambon Tapon, Amphoe Khlung, 21 Kilometres from Chanthaburi, covering a total area of 280 rai. The centre is responsible for horticultural research in order to solve the problems as well as develop major economic plants in the Central Region and the East. There are experimental plantations of various horticultural plants such as durian, rambutan, mangosteen, zalacca, santol as well as decorative plants, herbs and spices. A 30-minute study trail is provided through gardens and plantations. A camping ground is also allocated for visitors, with tents for 1–3 persons available at Baht 100–200. Contact at least 1 week in advance for a group visit. Tel. 0 3939 7030, 0 3939 7146 during office hours on weekdays.

I hope you go for a short investigation trip. Take some photos and get back with a report.

I've found many references to Rhizobium, but not concrete answers.

Can anyone give me answers to the following questions.

Where can I buy/aquire Rhizobium in Thailand ?

Does it have a Thai name ?

Where can I find out which type of Rhiz I need for a particular crop ?

Im going to plant Leucaena, Common Vetch, Scarlet Clover & soybean.(all for soil improvement).

If I can get it, how do I use it ?

If I cant get it, will it naturaly develop over time ?, my land has been used for soybean in the past, but its had a 2 year break.

I know the stuff will grow, but I'm after nitrogen & organic matter, not beans.

Thanks

Hi

I also want to know if it´s possible to buy in Thailand.

I only found NODULAID.

I am going to fill a lot of rice paddies with soil and was thinking of cover it with Cow Pea mixed with something like this.

Recently I have found two interesting websites which could be helpful to this project:

http://www.prosea.nl/ PROSEA stands for Plant Resources of South-East Asia

http://www.worldagroforestry.org/sea/produ...es/AF/index.asp

Agro Forestry Tree Database: A tree species reference and selection guide

Thanks for sharing hmj.

I can also add that Food Forest DVD is out now.

For me as newbie it was great because i could see how they work for real. A lot of new inputs.

Neem Tree was already mentioned previously.

From what I read so far, one tree one should definitely have in such a garden is mulberry (Morus alba). Basically everything on this tree is edible, from the leaves to the fruit. One can make juices from leaves, tea, fruit jam, wine, vinegar, etc. On top of it the trees grow vigorously, are salt-resistant, can exist through drought, have not many pests and actually work as attraction for birds to their fruit (eg planted with other fruit trees they protect them by deflecting interest from them).

I personally would be very interested to hear from people who have experience with mulberry trees, both for their use as human food and for sericulture (silk worms).

In Sweden i tried Black Mulberry (Morus nigra) once, and little did i know when i taste it what a powerful tree this is. I see on internet that they make a lot of research on the leaves in different areas. Diabetes for example. And for a protein source to animal fodder. I also read that it could be used as windbreakers.

This tree is now in my top 100 species collection. Thanks Jts-khorat for sharing.

http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=992

http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Morus+alba

13006020.pdf

http://www.echotech.org/mambo/index.php?op...&Itemid=133

A good source of information as well as being a seed bank

Jandtaa

Thanks for sharing

ForestGardener, as long as your pond is big enough to provide water for your needs during the dry season,I would raise the level of the paddy fields ,with slopes back toward the swales and pond .

A slight gradient will allow that land to be used for garden or tree planting as it should then have sufficient drainage during the wet.

Paddies, if left as they are will stay saturated for to long during the wet and anything you plant there (except rice ) will not survive.

Levels are most important in this type of project,a series of swales with very low gradient leading back to your main water storage which can all fill to a say a

foot or two deep but over that drain to where-ever the water normally drains (water-course ,creek etc.).

The idea is to try and copy a natural environment of a lake with its tributaries.

A tractor can form the swales with long angle slopes (4 or 5 to 1 slopes ) and if the gradients are low,erosion wont be a problem, when they dry out in the dry season they can be utilised for growing things.

Small walk over bridges can be erected to allow easier access to each raised area. Fish will use the channels while they contain water and return to the pond as they dry out.

A mesh barrier across the swale that ultimately drains the area will keep your fish "at home".

Hi Ozzydom

I found this website

http://www.biochar.net/swale/swale.htm

Does it looks something like that as you describe?

The DVD you mention with Geoff Lawton looks really god so far. They have release another teaser.

Establishing a Food Forest DVD "Promo" Part 1

Establishing a Food Forest DVD "Promo" Part 2

I´ts interesting to hear in part 2 when Geoff talks about how different smells in the garden confuses the pests.

Mr.Robert Hart also talks about how important it is to use aromatic herbs when designing a forest garden.

"Many aromatic herbs, such as the varios mints, tansy and balm, deter slugs and other pests and disease germ from attacking not only themself but also their plant neighbors".

He also recomend herbal mulch, consisting of sprigs of aromatic plants, which he spread between the rows.

Another thing i never heard of before is that he used liquid seaweed for 3 reasons.

1."Liquid seaweed is the only spray ever used in the project. It´s effect is not to kill pests ore disease germs but to build up the plants own powers of resistance".

2."Watering the soil with liquid seaweed also has an alkalizing effect. Calcified seaweed meal has the additional bonus of tiny shells, which also deter slugs".

3. He talks of iodine which is essential for good blood circulation.

"Another way of ensuring an adequacy of iodine in the diet is by applying seaweed fertilizers and seaweed foliar sprays to one´s own fruit, vegitables and herbs".

So now to my question. Does anybody know if all of this mints (Mentha spp) is possible to grow in Thailand?

Apple mint

Curly mint

Eau-de cologne mint

Ginger mint

Peppermint

Pineapple mint

Spearmint

Water mint

And i also wonder about Balm (Melissa officinalis) and Tansy (Tanacetum vulgare).

Any good book about permaculture would be an essential place to start to provide an overall methodology. Permaculturist Geoff Lawton has a new DVD coming out soon about forest gardens - you can search on YouTube for some previews, especially the visit to the Cambodian forest garden. Some Bill Mollison videos are also available online, especially the Global Gardener series.

While the notion of guilds is important, I wouldn't stick to rigidly to the 7 layers approach as a starting point. A true multi-layer forest system takes decades to develop and you need to understand succession within different tree species, from pioneers to climax species, fast growers vs shaders, and so on. In Thailand a well known guild is Durian and Mongosteen. (In south America - corn, squash and beans - the 3 sisters). To speed up the succession process you can adapt the framework model as used by FORRU (Forest Restoration Research Unit). Their book "How to Plant a Forest" is also essential reading (PDF)

You need to consider what are your aims - is it to provide food in the short term or to spend a lifetime establishing a food forest. If you are after food, then there are other considerations that override the 7 layer food forest idea. If you are looking for a reliable food supply then it would be worthwhile to research agroforestry. A good place to start is UHDP (Upland Holistic Development Project). Their booklet "AGROFORESTRY OPTIONS FOR SMALL UPLAND FARMS" is a very good starting point (PDF).

Remember too that Robert Hart is working in a temperate climate and Thailand is tropical. This means you have different and wider options open to you in terms of the number of species you can grow. Coconut, papaya, banana, bamboo, for instance, are all key plants for a tropical climate. Cultural considerations also play a part as chillies, ginger, basil, rice would be key crops to look at in Thailand. Additionally, many crops that westerners wouldn't eat are common food in Thailand (like Mimosa/Acacia leaves). With so many options available, you can be much more flexible in terms of what you grow. In my opinion an essential crop to grow for its nutritional and water purification benefits is Moringa oleifera "Ma rum".

If you want to save effort and set up a no-dig garden on raised beds then you need to plant perennial vegetables/herbs and use lots of mulch. You should avoid compacting the soil and use a much more structured approach. Look at the work of Fukuoka Masanobu (One straw revolution) or Emilia Hazelip's Synergistic Garden for some ideas of what this involves. You should also think of all you other needs - what will you grow for firewood, for forage crops, for construction, for weed barriers, etc.

The 7 stories approach also fails to include any aquaculture component - which in terms of yield is more productive. A small pond with aquatic plants like Ipomea aquatica and possibly some fish such as tilapia or catfish is worth considering. A good general website to visit is Overstory

The DVD you mention with Geoff Lawton looks really god so far. They have release another teaser.

Establishing a Food Forest DVD "Promo" Part 1

Establishing a Food Forest DVD "Promo" Part 2

Is this you Hakan?

Anyway I see you get plenty good advice here

Hi Bergen.

Yes it´s me. When i was visiting your farm i remember you talked about this forum, so i tried to post here. And i´m glad i did that before i start this project. So much knowledge in here.

Now i have order books from Thailand and have much of reading to do. After that perheps i can visit you again and get some practical lessons?

Forestgardener,you dont describe your land,are you going to extend from an already wooded area or try to establish an oasis in a normal farming type area?

Your aim is achievable ,but it will require lots of work. You will have to establish a self contained and maintaining micro-climate.

If you look about you will find these environments (apart from mountain forests) are centred around water,either running (stream) or standing (lake or pond) so that is probably your starting point.

Soil quality is not so important (unless its saline inundated) as soil improvement is part of the overall scheme.

As said water is the number one requirement to provide moisture and humidity for your micro climate.

In most cases I would eliminate all weeds and give the area a good deep ploughing (with good management it should be the last time you would ever need to plough).

Then comes tonnes and tonnes of animal manure (anything you can source ,from elephant poo to chicken droppings) and spread over the whole area.

On top of this goes truck loads of rice waste (straw or shells) compost, forest litter etc.

If its the wet season things will progress on their own ,if it is the dry then the sprinklers come into play with copious amounts of water. At this stage you are providing the environment for the micro-organisms to go to work and multiply ,all the time improving the soil structure.

Now is time to plant your largest trees and get them established, they probably need 3-4 years start before the other perrenials go in. A few chickens and ducks can be let loose on the block,their scratching and pooing is all part of the process.

Off course they are fenced out of your garden sections which can be established in the first year, but let back in when you have harvested.

If things are occurring as they should you should not have to cultivate ,just plant through the straw and litter.

Bananas ,coconuts etc can be planted in the initial planting. so within 2 years you should be eating veggies from your garden, bananas fish from the pond chicken and duck eggs and meat. the nuts and other fruit will come in later on.

Because of the higher rate of decomposition in the tropical climate it will be necessary to introduce more manure and litter at intervals ,this is best acquired and stocked in heaps when it is cheap and plentiful.

Hart and the father of permaculture Bill Mollison perfected their art in temperate climates ,Mollison is a fellow Tasmanian ,but the basics are pretty much the same,its just the species and the special care they may require differ for our tropical conditions.

It is no rocket science ,all you need to do is provide the right conditions , plan your tree spacings to suit growth and shade and all other things will happen naturally.

I wish you all the luck in your endeavour ,I wish I were young enough to do it again.

There are about 2 rai of native forest already so i´m lucky. There i can start plant the different layers and get the practical experiense that i need. Then i stick to your suggestion. Start with largest trees to get them established. I also need to dig a deep pond and some swales in the area. But now i have a problem.

Should i fill the old ricefields with soil from the ponds ore not?

My plan was to do that but i hear some people saying to me not to do. Thats because they collect water that are so importent to have. It would be great to hear from more about this so i dont do anything stupid here.

Thank you all for answer me and give me useful tips. Now i really feel i´m heading for the right direction. And this books for sure gonna make my life so much esier. Not only can i get more info but if they write the names in thai that will defently help me when i comunicate with Thai people.

Now my girlfriend has found one soildoctor from LDD.

http://www.ldd.go.th/indexEng50.htm

He will come at the end of august ore september and take soil samples of the land. When we get the result they will help us how to improve the soil in that area. And if i understand everything right this service is free.

When i know more i get back to you with a report.

Dear FG,

Good luck with your project. My only advice is check the water availability situation. Not much will grow in the dry season without it.

Isaanaussie

Thanks. Yes i agree that dry season can put my project on risk. But they tell me there are groundwater in the area. I think the best way is to start with canopy layer and try to find deep rooted trees. Let them grow a couples of years before expanding with the others layers. Now i only have to find that kind of trees. Any suggestion?

Well, there are quite a few edible plants growing where I live, they should grow where you live..but no guarantees. Jicama is a vining root that grows wild where I live (it is also raised commercially) and is quite tasty. Another plant is the Don Khae, a nitrogen fixing tree with lovely white or purple edible flowers.

However I think the best place to start would be older people who know the local edible plants.

Thanks fo your answer. I start reading on internet about Jicama and it will defently fit in to the forest garden. But please tell me more about Don Khae. Is there any english ore latin name for it? Nitrogen fixing trees and plants is a must to have. I know that the locals here have great experiense of edibles plants but they have a little of problem to understand what the crazy swede means when he ask for nitrogen fixers, shade tolerant herbs and so on... . But this is important when you design a forest garden. If you mix the right trees, shrubs herbs and so on you should have what Mr. Robert Hart say:

"Once established after about two years, the Forest Garden is self-perpetuating, self-fertilising, self-watering, self-mulching, self-weed-suppressing, self-pollinating, self-healing and highly resistant to pests and diseases. The only work required is pruning, controlling plants that seek to encroach on each other, and mulching with compost once a year, after the herbaceous plants die down in the late autumn".

I heard about "Soil doctors" in Thailand and i asked my girlfriend to try contact them. Perheps they could give some god advise.

http://www.ldd.go.th/Web_UNCCD/Volunteer%2...20Doctors_1.pdf

Hi

I´m from Sweden and are a totally beginner in this forum and to farming. On 7 rai outside Ubon Ratchathani i want to design a edible forest garden according to Mr. Robert Harts ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hart_(forest_gardener)

http://www.risc.org.uk/garden/roberthart.html

So far so god, but now to my problem. All the books i read about this topics is from experience in europe. And i have no idea if this tree, schubs etc is possible to plant in Thailand? I have like millions question but i start only with one in this forum.

Is there anyone in this forum who have experiense of forest ore woodland gardening in Thailand?