Howsitgoin

Hi,

I was approached yesterday and given a model agent's card and asked to contact someone for modeling. I'm not sure whether I will do this or not (or whether I even can..). My visa is a non-imm 'O', where employment is prohibited. Does that mean I cannot model? Or is modeling still allowed? (since it isn't full time, probably very little time a week).

Thanks

Do it - technically it's not allowed, but nobody could care less.

It's lots of fun, and lead to surprisingly good money. And lots of parties as well.

I have been doing that when i wasn't old and fat yet, and never had problem. Immigration officers always recognized me when i was on a visa run, and had a right laugh before stamping me in.

An agent will send you to castings, and if you get accepted, he will deal out the pay, and keep a percentage as a fee.

Am I the only one in thinking that this could have been decided upon at a meeting between 2 very high profile figures less than a week ago (can't remember what the date was)?

If this is the case it looks more like an exit strategy for Chamlong and would back up opinions I have heard that the PAD leadership had split into factions.

Difficult to say.

But it definitely was a very good tactical move by police - take out the master tactician. Now very soon we might see a split up of PAD. Panlop Pinmanee, if he follows through with his announcement, has to replace Chamlong, and there are many in the PAD leadership that have huge difficulties to accept him.

Things are getting interesting again.

... as PAD leaders are going to end where they belong : jail.

I would not bet on it.

PAD will quickly develop counter strategies, and we might very well see the situation heat up again.

Don't forget - with Chamlong we have an expert, both scientific and with practical knowledge, in covert warfare and counter insurgency.

I feel like this topic is becoming a troll playground.

If you look at the last couple of pages - ithe agenda has been monopolised by a couple of posters with very questionable motives.

Yeah pretty much. Register new names and shout your talking points so loudly that you drown out your opponents. Doesn't matter if what you're saying is accurate, just keep repeating it over and over again. It's not a coincidence that a bunch of new posters have arrived since the beginning of the protests and basically only post on this topic.

Character assassination is the last resort.

Can't come up with credible arguments anymore when presented with facts, supported by published research, that counter monotonous propaganda, so smear your opponents and hint that they might be part of a wild conspiracy. A rather low line of argumentation, if i may say so.

And very boring.

I think you are being extremely unfair on government schooling there.

I am surrounded by more than a few products of government schools. Compared to their age peers in the west they are far behind other than in the abilities of rote learning.

I am not in favor of either a messy education of government schools or the snotty path to patronage, and therefore will relocate to the west when my son has to go to school.

I can't see PAD supporters distance themself...they get more and more....

In your dreams.

If you have a look at Makkhawan and Government House now, there are rarely more than 1000 or 2000 PAD cultists, rather down from the previous 20 000 to 30 000.

So, what sort of school did you decide to send your kids to and how has it worked out?

I believe this is comparing apples with oranges.

Here in Thailand, if you send your kids to a normal government school, your kids will have very little chance to be able to ever enter University. In addition you have a class system in which it still is more decisive what your family name is that your qualifications. Things are slowly changing (emphasis on slow).

In most parts of Europe, the best schools are government schools, children from underprivileged parents get all sort of assistance from the governments, most expensive private schools are for misfits from wealthy families.

Here you have the choice of giving your kid a good education in a snotty school, a so-so education in a OK private school, or a mess in a government school (unless your kid is smart enough and you well connected enough to get your kid in one of the elite government schools).

I am happy i moved over the border , have not seen or read about such an incident here in Cambodia , most likely due to the fact these people are less aggressive in nature .

Give it time, Cambodia doesn't have any ambulance service at all yet. No wonder that you haven't read about such an incident.

And as to the alleged "less aggressive nature" of Cambodians ( ) - i do believe you forget the tiny little period in which Cambodia lived through the Pol Pot regime, in which a sizable amount of Cambodians were exterminated, and subsequent civil war...

The fool tried to bring a gun into the PAD rally site,

and then refused to be searched, and then fought with them.

He brought it on himself.

Hundreds go in and out daily without incident.

You have no better argument than a repeat of something over and over and over.

It is Perpetually_Distressing and hebetudinous.

Away from the cameras are many incidents where guards and "Naclop Srivichai" have harassed journalists and rally goers. If you go into the archives of the newspapers you will find many reported incidents. This rather extreme one was captured on video, most aren't because they happened without witnesses.

Many normal PAD supporters have distanced themselves from PAD, because of those incidents. Academics that once supported PAD, and have distanced themselves in public are smeared on the PAD stage.

which gives unelected institutions far too much power over elected politicians, and there are many voices that want to get rid of the draconian ISOC laws. Looks like the legislators of the new charter ahd something in mind, didn't they just oust a corrupt government?

Their policies of governance have from the beginning been a continuation of TRT policies, and they were very clear about that. Their performance is hindered by the fact that 111 of TRT party executive members have been banned, yes BECAUSE of this "being very clear" they are a proxy partie of the TRT and of the ousted premier! of which were some truly despicable politicians, but also some of Thailand's most able ones. it seems that there are people who have quite a differing opinion..

Military also has enormous backdoor influence, which does hinder the performance of the government as well.

Cancellation of his diplomatic passport is not going to make one bit of difference - forget extradition Really? Well then let's forget it...slap an general amnesty on top of it and let's bringthe coup leaders and the PAD to trial for treason- yes mate? .

The situation is a bit more complex.

Yes, a corrupt government was ousted. The way to oust it was another form of corruption - corruption of power enabled by the informal power structures that allowed the military to completely disregard the '97 constitution, which has explicitly forbidden military coups, and has enabled people to resist such. Additionally, many of the junta's members were not just power corrupt, but clearly financially corrupt as well, eg. Gen. Saprang and his family's rather outrageous mishandling of funds.

There are two main philosophies. One, the pro-constitution-change philosophy accepts that politics is corrupt, and change will gradually come with a better development status of the population.

The second philosophy, of the constitution drafters, also knows that politics is corrupt, but attempts to force politics to change through empowerment of courts, civil service and military over politicians.

What those adherents of the second philosophy though completely disregard is, that civil service, etc. is corrupt and part of patronage systems as well, yet not elected or transparent in any way.

My personal view is that the first philosophy is more valid. Adherents of the second philosophy are too impatient, and have not given democratic development enough time.

Your second point.

I do not like the term "proxy". This comes from the IMO rather simplistic view that Thaksin/TRT was solely a organization led by one man to enrich himself and his cronies.

No doubt - there was this element of personal enrichment involved. But on the other hand Thailand's rural population has benefited under Thaksin and TRT more than ever before. Read neutral academic studies - all of them have a more discerning view, supported by evidence data, on these programs. I have attached some at a thread in the general folder and would suggest to download and read them, one post on page one, and another at the beginning at page 2.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Battle-Popul...il-t215630.html

Also, you cannot simply generalize all these banned politicians as corrupt Thaksin cronies. That may be convenient, but is simply not realistic. Read studies, educate yourselves. Bangkok Pundit has many very educating posts on his blog about the background of individual politicians and their histories.

You third point.

Don't simplify my opionions. There are many cases where Thaksin maybe should be tried in court (and the most important IMHO - the drug war killings - will never see the day of light). And also the junta should be tried, and so the PAD leaders.

Yet, for the sake of Thailand's future - i am somewhat idealistically of the view that all should be given an amnesty, so that we can return to actually fighting our differences via the democratic processes, and learn from the mistakes that allowed the situation to deteriorate that badly.

But i am realist enough that this will not happen, at least not until things got a lot worse.

This is just a hypothetical question that I had, and I was wondering what people thought.

That question is so "hypothetical" that there is no answer.

It depends of course on the particular situation. One thing though - most "shoot outs" in real life don't last long enough for all the camera angles needed in a Hollywood movie, and the perpetrators usually won't wait around for police to arrive. That somewhat beats the purpose.

And yes, more than a few police do get involved in very dangerous situations here. It is an urban myth that police in Thailand only consists of greedy little incompetents - this could not be any further from reality.

Police arrest PAD leader

Very good.

Sad though is that this man fell for the PAD cult. I have met him briefly while he was Minister of Industry, and found him a nice and humorous man.

Purachai's policies were entirely based on what the electorate asked for, and were very popular. They were part of market research. They also have actually stayed around to a large degree; I haven't seen 14 year olds out clubbing at RCA since the social order campaign began. Foreigners might complain, but at the end of the day, productivity increases for society when everyone isn't totally boozed up the whole time.

The rumour is the subsequent war on drugs and war on dark forces; well dark forces was a political vote winner; the war on drugs was a personal vendetta against the fact his kids were big time drug users at that time.

Alledgedly of course. After all, if someone cannot see a bloke getting shot in Club 20 and then hide the culprit and then become Minister twice in the last 9 months, then surely none of us could ever see the former PM's side snorting c&*p non stop in a very gay manner while his underage sister partied big time prior to the whole 'war on drugs'

Just briefly.

I am of course aware of these rumors, but i would totally discount that this was the reason for the drug war. Not logical.

First of all - the drug situation was indeed dire at the time. Yaa Maa was everywhere, whole villages and urban neighborhoods ran on the pills. Something had to be done.

Secondly - the drug war did not just consist of the killings. For the first time selling and use was separated. Up to a certain amount of pills people were classified as users, got fined, and sent to re-education camps mostly under army authority. We do tend to forget this.

We also forget that this was not just "Thaksin's drug war", but that all sectors of power have found an agreement. Otherwise this would not have been possible. Therefore the from the PPP government announced drugwar never happened. No dead, no nothing other than slight increase of budget for certain border units.

The killings in my opinions were counterproductive, and completely out of order, but their effect as a deterrent worked, for some time at least.

Today the pills have been creeping back into society on a major scale, and part of the reason is the political turbulence of the past years. Policing is hardly possible under those conditions.

Until we see the next drug war.

My view on Purachai's social order campaign is more about the many people who have lost income. Middle class kids may have stopped clubbing, but all the dek serves, the late night food vendors, etc.

Not at all.

If they DO have a good idea I will applaud it.

I WISH and HOPE they get some GOOD ideas.

I am FAR from the only one thinking this is idiotic by the way.

But phalus shaped trinkets are NOT going to bring western tourists,

no matter WHAT back story is attached to it.

I would even not be so sure that this might be aimed at western tourists in the first place. Chinese, Taiwanese, Malaysian and especially Indian tourists are arriving in ever increasing numbers. And don't be mistaken - they have money to spend, and do spend it.

Their traditions and cultures are somewhat closed to Thai culture, they use amulets in their own religions, and therefore Thai amulets can easily incorporated into their religions.

In Taiwan, Singapore, Hongkong and Malaysia are already many very affluent collectors of Thai amulets.

It's just funny to somehow think someone out there reads this article and thinks that a new bunch of politicians were elected as the result of TRT/PPP; let's face it the new blood with the new ideas; guys like Purachai and Somkid.....they are LONG GONE.

The problem though with Purachai is that he has been very myopic in his views, he spoke for a social conservative middle class. He definitely has taken more than a bit of fun out of the place...

But yes, i do agree very much. It does take time, lots of it.

The problem here is that now the public discourse is dominated by extremes, and mostly intellectually not exactly appealing. People that are or were originally in the middle, are forced to take one or the other side. No middle ground left.

You appear to be on the side of Dems/PAD because your strong views about Thaksin/TRT, and i appear to be on the side of PPP/UDD because my disappointment by Dems and my strong dislike of PAD. Yet our views are not very far from each other at all. We do see the problem and the possible solutions in very similar ways.

My hope, and i believe justified, was that Thaksin would have shot himself in his own foot, eventually. His reliance on the electorate also meant an empowerment of those voters. He had to supply them with money and else they needed/wanted.

People upcountry, and in the industrial suburbs are far less stupid than Thaksin's opponents try to polemically make them out. At least they know their limits, and have a strong desire to overcome them. And none of them believes that Thaksin is a truly clean man. Rising wealth, rising opportunities, would have gradually given them independence from the usual power networks. And that would have also meant that one day, they would have demanded more than Thaksin would have been willing to deliver.

Right now, many TRT politicians have already started to move much further than Thaksin. You won't read or hear of that in the medias, or listen to their public statements, but if you personally know some of them - you might hear some surprising views.

The tragedy in Thailand is that no side, nobody is truly independent. The now partly appointed senate has been supposed to be independent, yet some of its members are blatantly supporting PAD. And the same in every field - journalism, academics, judiciary, army - name them, and you have people with supposed clear neutral positions yet part of large patronage networks that overlay their formal powers.

You mentioned Channel 11, and you are right. What never really made it into the medias though is that previous to what you are talking about, still during coup days, PAD has, partly successful, tried to inflitrate this and other media outlets with their members and supporters.

PAD has spent at least several month before Makhawan building up underground councils in every province, its leaders mostly high ranking members of military, civil service and judges. They have started building up militias (their disgusting Naclop Srivichai, and next level their Arsar Samak), increasingly getting military style training.

No side in this increasing mess is clean, public debate is only possible on selected aspects of this mountain of shit, and the fallout is going to be massive.

could you get real please?

yeah, dude - west side posse!

Sorry.

To answer your questions. They have clearly voiced their views on which articles in particular they want to change. Just go back and search the early news articles - it's the article about amnesty for the coup making junta, the article that allows parties to be dissolved if one executive member is even aware of any infraction against election laws by any MP candidate of his party, which gives unelected institutions far too much power over elected politicians, and there are many voices that want to get rid of the draconian ISOC laws.

The enormous resistance obviously forced the government to change their approach.

Their policies of governance have from the beginning been a continuation of TRT policies, and they were very clear about that. Their performance is hindered by the fact that 111 of TRT party executive members have been banned, of which were some truly despicable politicians, but also some of Thailand's most able ones.

Military also has enormous backdoor influence, which does hinder the performance of the government as well.

Extradition of Thaksin has most definitely been completely bungled since the Government House occupation. In addition to that, any extradition is going to be very difficult, especially when the investigating committee has been staffed with people who have appeared at the stage of PAD, and are on record of being PAD supporters.

Cancellation of his diplomatic passport is not going to make one bit of difference - forget extradition. This is just a PR stunt, nothing else.

It is also rather clear, if you have the ability to read between the lines, that Thaksin's exile has been permitted, and any "protest" against it is just part of a political game.

Real enough, dude?

And yes, the villagers don't care about who their guy works for, if he switched to be a democrat (actually he personally is banned, but if his people who he asked people to vote for instead switch) then the villagers would continue to vote for him just the same. The guy is a gangster, he is f&*king scary, he probably should be in jail and he is a hero to the villagers, don't ask me why.

Lots to cover, in general your facts are correct.

Nevertheless, it still is a view of elitist struggles, that does not take into account important social changes. Elites here also can be defined - as overlapping power networks, partly competing, but also collaborating on issues.

Why do people follow these "Gangster" type politicians? For many people these are the only functioning mechanism to solve their problems in their areas of influence.

The problem though is how to diminish their influence. TRT strategy was one way - incorporating them, managing them somewhat, and slowly erode their hold by replacing their power with state power, so that people will one day trust in the state.

Which to some extend has happened under TRT rule.

We have to note though that not all areas of Thailand's rural areas are under the influence of the type of politicians, and in the ones that are, there are varying degress of hold these politicians have.

PAD? Well, they cry foul, but have so far completely failed to come up with any feasable solution, other than their juvenile debating club called "New Politics".

The military coup failed to solve anything.

People expect a quick fix, but there isn't one. We have to accept that this problem will continue to haunt Thailand, and we will have to work with it, and make very uncomfortable compromises.

You expect a bit much from journalistic articles of the foreign media. Their job is not to write an academic paper, but to give broad outlines to a foreign audience. And broadly, they re not too far off the mark.

If you want the details - go into the academic papers. There are many around, some better, some less. A few i have just posted.

Yes, we don't like Thaksin, we don't like TRT populism. But can you honestly suggest that any of the available alternatives are any better. In some aspects they may have advantages, and in others they are absolutely useless.

And all that are there will not get around "Godfather" politicians and patronage networks if they want to form a government, elected or not.

Puaeh Pandin has spent much more than PPP on vote buying, yet failed to make inroads.

Just as newbies spending more money at Chatuchak don't necessarily buy more stuff.

Newbies?!

from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Motherland

Its most notable members include Thaksin's former foreign minister Surakiart Sathirathai, Suranand Vejjajiva and Preecha Laohaphongchana; it is composed of both former TRT members and former TRT opponents. Since former TRT members are banned from politics for five years, a non-TRT member will have to lead the party in the 2007 election.^[1] Suwit Khunkitti and Watchara Punnachet have been elected party leader and party's secretary general respectively. The party appointed Vatana Asavahame as the party chairman, and Police General Pracha Promnok as party chief adviser. General Panlop Pinmanee, adviser to the Internal Security Command Operation, accepted to become adviser to the party, overseeing security.^[2]

Ok, done, no sign of it.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...+urge+restraint

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...keyword=protest

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...keyword=protest

http://absolutelybangkok.com/live-police-l...r-so-it-seemed/

Rosana, 30 senators, Abhisit and Gen. Pathompong interfered with their visit of the protest site, expressing support for PAD, during an ongoing police operation, court ordered and absolutely legal.

Obstruction of justice?

The govt tried to re-take the govt house by all means possible and failed miserably for the lack of cooperation by law enforcement agencies. It brought warrants, state of emergency, fully armed crowd dispersing units - still no one wants to fight this battle. The govt is simply not in control.

>>>

Everybody means everybody. People argue for or against "new politics" but only one poster keeps asking for definition.

Lack of corporation of law enforcement agencies?!

I would suggest to go back and read old newspaper articles - police cooperated very well. Only 30 Senators led by Rosana, Gen. Patumpong and Abisit did not respect court warrants and appeared on the scene of protests hindering police to do their duty, and forcing the government to abandon their attempt.

Very interesting - every question asked about "New Politics" is answered by representatives of PAD with "This is only my personal view...", or "This is open for discussion...", but "EVERYBODY" knows what it is, ...according to you...

Then, please, it should be easy for you to give us a link to PAD's definition, where policies and details are outlined.

I am waiting...

one more try

Conners_Hewison__2008_.pdf

seems that it didn't work, i'll try again

Conners_Hewison__2008_.pdf

Would be interested in reading some of your citations. Are they available in English?

TH

I am not talking in absolutes here.

No doubt that there is more than a fair amount of "godfathers" and patronage politics involved with TRT/PPP. No government in Thailand can presently govern without compromising with these factions. The Democrats could not either when they were in power, and still are massively involved in patronage politics in the South. Marc Askew has recently published a book on this subject.

It is a complicated subject that i can't simply outline in a short post here - massive researches have been performed, long papers have been written. I can only try to make people aware of the existence of such.

Patronage networks have not been discontinued, and are integral part of PPP, no doubt about that. But society is in a process of change (and not because of elitist struggles as always portrayed, PPP vs. PAD, because in many ways PAD is very much about re-inventing old networks of Army, Civil Service and certain semi-Sakdina elements). People have changed - not one village without poeple who have worked in foreign countries, who have not foreigners intermarried with locals.

The change from rural poor into urban labor force is a mostly unresearched social phenomenon, but with profound effects on politics.

a few links to relevant research:

Nelson's analyses on PAD:

http://www.cityu.edu.hk/searc/WP87_07_MNelson.pdf

Bangkok Pundit's article on FCCT presentation on "New Politics":

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/10/...itics-what.html

Unfortunately a very important link to some very good research does not function anymore, so i will try to upload it. Hope it works.

Legally we have a government, sure. In reality it works out of temporary office because it's not recognised by large numbers of people, is not in control of the army or police, or over large parts of the country, and is only a short time away from legally collapsing, too.

>>>

I think EVERYBODY else on this board or in this country knows what "new politics" is.

Not exactly.

The government works out of a temporary office because a bunch of ultra-nationalist maniacs have illgally occupied Government House, and the government is not able to disperse the protests the way it would happen in any other country because of the use of patronage politics by aforementioned group.

The government is in control of Police, but unfortunately Army is only controlled by itself, riddled by factional infighting and extra-constitutional influences.

Interesting that you appear to speak for "EVERYBODY" here, or is it everybody that agrees with you, and ANYBODY else who has a opposing view is discounted, which obviously seems to be part of PAD's "New Politics"

The rural poor are still voting exactly they way they have the past 50 years.

I am very sorry to disagree here.

Anecdotal evidence is countered by academic research. Andrew Walker has done a very interesting field research that touches this subject - read it.

Baker - the researcher who has for years defined "godfather politics" (and has been disputed) has now reversed his position.

Korn has a few days ago openly admitted that money politics is not all there is, and neither is vote buying.

Read Ungpakorn's papers on this subject.

Society is in a process of change, especially rural poor and the from this sector recruited newly developing urban proletariat. The last years have seen a rise in political consciousness, reflected by TRT/PPP as they were/are the only party that has seen the political marketing potential of these developments, while all other parties are still struggling with accepting these developments.

You cannot discount these clear facts.