thaiwanderer

With so many farang coming here and getting into property, can some of you tell me why you made the decision that you did because I'm just not seeing "the math" to it and I do not say this to offend anyone. I am sure there are many good reasons to purchase. Eg: I can imagine a lot of the property has been bought with "black money." Not necessarily the proceeds of crime, but maybe tax evasion etc. No probs, in that case, I understand your reasons for purchase.

Am I missing something???? (Yes, I know, I am not a rocket scientist) :)

Farangs can legally own land but the exception is subject to such conditions and restrictions that it isn't worthwhile even where they qualify.

Your consideration didn't refer to other methods of contolling and having beneficial use of land other than lease (including nominee company, nominee wife / other, and rights of habitation, superficies and usufruct - there are many threads on these in the Real Estate section of Thai Visa).

Regardless of the route, farangs invest in real estate due to varying reasons including:-

1) plain stupidity or egotism

2) ignorance or assumed knowledge on poor research and advice

3) knowledge on decent research and advice together with accepting the risks.

There is in fact no one ideal route for all farang.

As to 'value' in farang real estate it is of course a strange market.

This thread alone tells us some people misunderstand exactly what they have already bought.

Nominee company has many risks but assuming those are avoided (a big assumption) it won't then involve a depreciating asset (but will involve a criminal offence).

You will always have to rely on other's seeing value when you want to cash out and a large part of that will involve other people's stupidity, egotism or lack of knowledge (whether your particular buyer or the'market rate' being what it is because of the high proportion of such people pushing the price up).

The oft touted idea that Thailand will never rock the boat by enforcing current laws or changing them as if we are beggars dependent on your money and future patronage is laughable in the extreme.

The guaranteed high failure rate of future lease 'renewals' will certainly rock the market but smug 'owners' may well have already found out to their cost that the rise in the value of 'their' land wasn't so inevitable as they thought (especially given their own ridiculous purchase price).

Has anyone considered that failing the test makes yoou unqualified/unsafe to drive. Paying corruption to get a licence under these circumstances seems not to be very moral.

Passing the test doesn't make you safe to drive.

the first lessee is entitled to 30 years max, or to swap to freehold within the 30 years if law changes/allows

another lessee is entitlled to 30 years max

which is acceptable by law.

In fact 30 years lease can be registered on me today, and another 30 year lease can be registered on my son tomorrow, starting when my 30 years expires. Have to pay taxes for both today and tomorrow tho

Acceptable? Probably not.

Viably protected when Lessor decides otherwise? Certainly not.

Buying a property, agree on a price, and the lease is a formality to enable you and your next to control it for an agreed time, or until you can become freehold owner or until you establish a co ltd, or until someone want to lease it for 30 years

I dont know how many Phuket lawyers register 30 and 30 years, but at least Sam in International Law office has done it. Dowroong, Phuket town office

Absolutely false.

The 2nd 30 years is not at all registered even if the lease within which it is mentioned is registered.

No the lease once recorded on the land title is secure for the period of the lease (max 30) its a real right not a contract / civil right. The new owner cannot break the basic terms of the timescale.

........but of course renewals (and other various lease terms) aren't protected (just to re-inforce the point).

We bought two places in Patong in 1987, they have been a total headache and if we'd sunk that money into something in Australia we'd have made a fortune. We now can't get rid of them

But is that because they in particular were a bad buy - which you could have equally have made in Austrailia?

I don't really understand the OP's point.

There have been changes in 7 years but not as great as the OP seems to suggest (a clear example of the OP's skewed viewpoint is the reference to cross cultural 'romances' which are hardly a new thing).

On the basis of the OP's distaste with its current state I cannot see how Phuket 7 years ago or whenever fits the notion of 'Paradise' to which they seem to be referring.

Phuket has always been a mix of the good and bad, which of course relate to subjective preferences anyway.

I have to question the OP's motivations for wanting to post a thread on how after 7 years their second trip wasn't like their first.

Could such a person have an enjoyable time anywhere?

His wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow and killed........................can you see any value to a usufruct now?????????/

What value it had is still preserved if tied to his life rsther than his wife's.

Its a shame they can't use all the direct taxation from resident farangs.....oh hold on a minute.

While I imagine many will raise horror stories etc, my foreign friends have had very good service and wideranging due dilligence from 3 'foreign' firms - 1. limcharoen / 2. mcevilly / 3. tilleke.

(I'm suprised by talk of checking who owns the land and if there's a mortgage as if that somehow is anywhere near a cpomprehensive view on what needs to be done of the legal title alone).

They aren't cheap and you'll need to discuss with them exactly what you want.

I have heard it said firms like these essentially offer an expensive translation service and foreign 'consultants' pass on the work to thai lawyer underlings etc

However unless you are used to doing business in Thailand generally these sorts of firms provide the best interface to ensure you get everything you want.

I have always used settlement agents when purchasing property who are legally obliged

to check out the title deed and make sure its free and clear of any caveats etc.

They do not exist here, That's why i asked about reliable, trustworthy law firms here who

do there job properly, from what i have been told some do not.

Wellington has recommended one he is happy with, i would also like to know if anyone has

used a law firm they are unhappy with so i can avoid them

Must say I have yet to see a law firm in Phuket conducting due diligence by inspecting the actual house/land to check if its below 80 meters and build according to buildingpermit, IOW legal structure. I know several 20 mill baht houses, with double the sqm of buildingpermit, IOW half the house is illegal.

This is more like survey work, and most lawyers can probably not even read the plans of a buildingpermit

Using a lawyer can create a false feeling of security, could be expensive security

They mustn't exist then if yoiu haven't seen them?

In fact the good ones do this and a lot more besides.

but then again they aren't cheap.

Did I get everything wrong? I did not (intend to) say that companies cannot be lessors or usufructuaries, they can. I bought a house and took over a leasing contract from a company myself many years ago.

Cut out what I wrote to try to explain as it obviously wasn't that good - back to basics.

As my lawyer explained: There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. 30 year is maximum that the law allow and any way to circumvent that is against the meaning of the law

Better?

Its a broad brush rule of thumb (ambiguous and neither wholly correct or incorrect) but isn't a decent replacement for an understanding of the actual laws involved.

I notice the gazette report doesn't refer to the thieves of being any particular nationality - has there been some developments?

Well I have been there before and I assume I paid 140-150 for a beer then, so I just assumed they charged me the same as before. And I have never had any problems in the other go-go bars before. It was stated on the menu, but I suspect that this might have been the "tout menu", the one you get if you walk in with a tout.

I went to Roxy, because I wanted to try other go-go places then the ones I usually go to. But charging this much for a drink gives the place a bad reputation and I for one will boycott the place for the rest of my life.

Does it though? or only a bad rep with punters like you?

Due to high ratio of transient punters who feel the emptyness in their lives to visit, such places and in fact the entire 'adult' (sic) industry in Phuket will continue to make money, and those punters will continue to moan they aren't as fulfilled as they had hoped.

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

The key word in the OP is 'control' the land by using a loophole to take away the rights of the Thai owner.

There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. A non-Thai citizen can get a lease contract registered in his own name as well as usufruct. Nominee companies are not accepted because of 2 reasons; there is no time limit and "ownership" is changed without land department knowing

stgrhe, please correct me if I'm wrong

Nominee companies aren't acceptable.........because they are nominee.

That aside, your 2 reasons are also incorrect.

Companies can be lessors or usufructuaries and I can't see why you think they can't be the latter?

USUFRUCT is not a Thai-Word (originally comes from latin). Probably 99 % of Thai-Officials have never heard of it, but in order to "save face" they would rather say "we not do" instead of admitting "I not understand word".

The remedy: There is a Thai-word for it (I used to know it, but right now I can't think of it), so therefore one must only ask the Thai GF/Wife for this Thai-word and the "officials" will at least know what is asked of them. Cheers.

Please, your imagination is running ahead of you.

Bit of a futile bunfight arguing over 'value for money' when mistaking leasehold, shaky corporate holdings or buying for someone else to hold rather than freehold.....but if comparing Phuket with other parts of Thailand yes its more expensive, what's the problem? buy or not its up to you

As to inflated advertised / negotiation prices they of course abound in Phuket where many visitors take leave of their senses but someone who gets burnt there will get burnt in any negotiated deal no matter where it is and what it involves, unless of course blinded by something else here.

I must admit his is a worry for me as well. I'm just not used to bricks and mortar (or similar) actually losing value as time progresses.

The building will probably lose value as time progresses, but land value increases over time. That is why location is a prime importance when buying real estate.

The keyword is redevelopment when talking about decades.

but he/she's not buying the land now, rather a developed unit

even in decades may well give no increase in real terms if then reverting to a share in a plot.

That will depend much on the location of the chosen old condo project, and its present density (affecting the unit's share of the land).

I bought a 121 sqm unit in Sukhumvit 24 in a 12-storey building sitting on 2 rai. Land prices at this location is presently over Bt600k/wah2. The building is approaching 30 years old and the unit's share of land is almost 1%. And new developments along the soi are 30+ storeys buildings. What will be the redevelopment potential two decades in the future?

potential maybe but need to get there first - increasing maintenance fees and less desirable place to live and rent possibly as it gets older

liability should it fall down

you can't force a sale rather than a rebuild etc etc

even then, growth of course all depends on how much you paid for the original unit

I must admit his is a worry for me as well. I'm just not used to bricks and mortar (or similar) actually losing value as time progresses.

The building will probably lose value as time progresses, but land value increases over time. That is why location is a prime importance when buying real estate.

The keyword is redevelopment when talking about decades.

but he/she's not buying the land now, rather a developed unit

even in decades may well give no increase in real terms if then reverting to a share in a plot

There are good reasons why that area has so far remained under-'developed' and now it seems 'better' reasons why those may be forgotten.

They take care of their own, even when wrong, and he didn't do anything

but defend himself when accosted by Aldhouse when leaving the bathroom.

I hope you have given a statement to the Police given what you witnessed?

It's in Thailand and there are Thai people there of course, but I'm interested in what 'Thainess' in particular will be lost by any such changes and why this might be something to lament?

'Upgrade' is also debatable. New grid on a sewer.

Rumours, rumours.

This doesn't even 'prove' the OP's wife was home by midnight.

She was never home by midnight. She split up with her friend at midnight and went to other clubs than her friend who went to Taipan. She arrived home before her friend at about 01:30. Her friend came in at 6am.

Where could you go wrong about my wife was home at midnight.

EXACTLY! It was an illustrative example of thai / expat whispers, honey.

(As to anyone's wife in Patong after dark (or at all) I'll sidestep that issue entirely).

Rumours, rumours.

This doesn't even 'prove' the OP's wife was home by midnight.

That's just what I meant, it all seems to have gone very well for him. Maybe he had a plan B arranged if anything went wrong in Phuket, which indeed it did.

It can't be easy to get out of any country under these circumstances, even on a second passport. You would have thought that the passports would have been linked through the immigration system.

Cheers, Rick

My understanding is he left through a non-computerised border.

I think you are giving him too much credit for having an escape plan before the alleged incident.

Why is he being given too much credit? He's probably the type who hangs out with criminal elements who discuss and plan escape methods in the event of any serious problems with Thai authorities. No one wants to rot in a Thai prison or be executed.

Posters' fantasies demonising him as some sort of criminal mastermind are becoming ever more bizarre.