sanooki

On 10/28/2023 at 11:41 AM, NanLaew said:

 

Yes, that is extortion. I hope you manage to find a new place with a more amenable landlord. Someone's seriously milking this pooyai bahn thing.

 

What are the written terms of notice to vacate in your signed lease agreement? Typically, it's 1 month or 30 days. So give them exactly that. You have about 60-days to find a new place and not waste any more time or money on these robbers and what they claim they are entitled to.

 

With regard to not bothering with a lease after renewing or extending beyond the first year, stop playing the Thai landlord's lazy game. To save yourself from 'unexpected' liabilities, always get a new, signed lease. Immigration will want to see it anyway (plus the landlord's tibian bahn and ID card). If a landlord doesn't want to provide any of these, don't deal with them.

 

As for witnesses, I am assuming these multiple needs to provide a witness you mention is due to two separate and non-consecutive extension applications? It should be a one-time thing and doesn't need to be your landlord (especially THIS landlord). In Udon, it was the neighbor's oldest kid from across the street, one time, done. In Jomtien, they didn't need one.

 

You mentioned switching to a Retirement Extension. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do it.

 

You also mentioned getting a 1-year multi-entry visa from Savanakhet. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do that.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Since my last post, we've already found a new place in a larger, more professional building that routinely welcomes foreign tenants, and will be taking one-year leases. We've decided we don't want to be here anymore and will be informing her the day before our move, which will be a bit over one month early. I'll gladly take the hit. We will dutifully inform immigration immediately of our new address.

I had to go with the landlord and and sister this year because we were caught unaware that they would want two. We tried around our place to find others, but none of them had tabien bahns in-district, which was also a requirement. This poo-bahn knew she had me in a corner, and did take advantage of it. I don't exactly know what it helps anything, as the opposite effect will be had, she will lose a good-paying customer. 

This was our first extension here in Korat. We don't know yet if they would come again on a second, but this office seems a bit stricter than others and I've heard sometimes they will do if you don't have a child. I also don't know yet if the visit is triggered by a move in-district.

My wife did get a chance to ask if our landlord will do the same next year, and what was her reasoning for what she did. The reply was baffling and illogical. Firstly, she said if we use only her as a witness, we could pay each month normally. But, if we need her sister again, we must pay the rent ahead of time. Secondly, the reasoning she gave was that they once had a foreigner stay who moved out somewhere else after she was a witness, and the police came to check if he was still there. She claimed it was "difficult" for them, without explaining exactly how. 

Two problems with this story. One, when we originally looked at the apartment, I emphasized that I would need a witness for my extension. She said, of course, no problem at all. She didn't mention ever having such a problem. I would have never moved here if I would have known. Also, why no problem with one witness even now, yet if I want two I gotta pay through the nose up front?

Two, these people seem to believe that they are guaranteeing to the police that I will live in my apartment continually for the term of the lease. Where is that ever required, and by whom? It's ridiculous. Everyone takes trips, and can have multiple residences. The only thing the witnesses are attesting to is whether they've occasionally seen me together with my wife at the apartment. If I were to go anywhere else, the police would only be interested in whether I was with my wife and my location was legally determinable. Nowhere in any lease ever have I promised I will only stay in that one place. A lease is a guarantee of access to a place for a set fee.

The only reasons I prefer the marriage visa in-country are that I may want to work some day, not yet sure, the money requirements are less than the retirement visa, and I prefer not to need to leave the country. None of these are insurmountable if I'm forced, but I'd rather have these options the way they are. Anyways, thanks for the info, and the opportunity to vent. :)

7 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

It is customary that when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Marriage Visa, that you get an Immigration visit during the 'under consideration' period, this to check whether indeed you and your wife are living together at the address provided.  Such immigration visit can also occur during the 'under consideration' period when having applied for the 90-day Non Imm O Retirement Visa, but is rather rare and province-dependant.

When applying for the 1-year extension based on your Non Imm O Marriage Visa, an Immigration visit is usually conducted again during the 'under consideration period;  (once again to check if you are still living with your wife at the same address). 

1-year extension applications for a Non Imm O Retirement Visa do not have an 'under consideration' period and when all requirements are met the stamp is provided immediately in your passport (or to be collected next day).  So it is extremely rare to receive an Immigration visit when on a 1-year Retirement extension, as there is no reason for local Immigration to check it. 

Thanks, I didn't know they can visit for the 90-day retirement visa. I thought the only reason for a visit would be to check the husband and wife situation.

I am considering the retirement visa to avoid this in the future, and my other backup is to go for a marriage visa in Savannahket. But these options have drawbacks for me.

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That would be enough bother for me to not even consider living in a province with such silliness.  Even the witness thingy at PKK is silly redundant.   As already been to the house, talked to neighbors.  Witnessed gets asked question, maybe, first time, then signs a statement.

 

My witnesses that I did use here, never met me before going to IO.  Friends of wife.  One she never met, as friend of her brother when using 😂

The second witness I used I had also never met. But, she was the older sister of my landlord and a pooban here. You'd think she might know of me, or at least would trust her sister to tell her I was a decent tenant. She's the one who insisted on this insanity. I guess she considers herself clever or something.

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Leases I had (3) were for short periods, then month to month afterwards, with cancellation allowed by both parties with 30 days notice.   Good for you & landlord, and accepted at IOs that I used, Udon Thani & PKK when having.  Never heard of the dated expiration date of lease being a requirement.

 

Witness of course, at the discretion of IO.  Not needed at Nong Khai, Udon Thani, when using, but required @ PKK.

Nice. I've been surprised at what I've been seeing in Korat.

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

 

Many offices do, indeed, usually impose that condition. The reason, I think, is that they want to prevent people shopping around for offices with easier extensions, and insisting that you have a long term rental agreement helps to ensure that. Not all offices have that requirement, though, for a marriage extension, they need to be able to verify that you are really living together. You could ask to talk with the senior official to explain your situation, and ask them to waive the requirement. It is not mandatory for an office to impose this condition, just a common practice.

Right. We cleared the hurdle already for this year, but did the extra 6 months lease at the beginning of the month of renewal. One of the staff actually groused a bit that there were less than 6 months on it.

What you say about the requirement makes sense, and I can't imagine anyone at immigration will make trouble if we move out before lease end. We did our last two times, and the facts are surely there for them to know, if they care. But, really, I think a lot of this is down to bureaucracy and underlings not understanding the reasoning behind rules. That's what bites us sometimes, unfortunately.

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Which province are you currently living in?  And when you would move would it be in same province?

Reason I ask is that the 'witness' requirement for Marriage extensions is only a requirement at SOME Imm Offices.

 

Hi. It's downtown Korat. We are looking to move not too far from here. We like Korat and were even interested in keeping our apartment. I know different places have different requirements, such as some only require 1 witness, which is part of why we were caught off-guard on short notice. We also don't know if they will visit every year or only the first time.

Instead of saying if one encounters all aholes, then he must be the ahole, I will say that encounters rely on the beliefs and experiences of the people involved. Thai people often seem to have a simplified stereotype ingrained that comes mainly from the media and other Thais amplifying that stereotype. Their encounters with foreigners are limited, and many of them may fit the pattern of their stereotype. They also have their own, often cookiecutter, motivations based on their somewhat limited prospects, that come into play. So, it's pretty rare, in my years here, to encounter someone who has an independent and unbiased stance to me, who must outwardly appear the same as any other foreigner they've ever seen. Although understandable, it does sometimes get very tiring to seemingly never be able to make progress in these challenging relationships over many years. I try to look at the advantages, which sometimes is not easy, but always to me seem to outweigh the disadvantages.

I've been living in Thailand for about 13 years in total, and haven't been out for over 8. I'm on my 3rd consecutive marriage extension since retiring a little over 2 years ago. I had two others with my ex-wife. My wife and I are trying out places where we might want to settle down, so we're on our second location now, in Isaan.

Timing apartment moves has been a little tricky due to what I think is an odd requirement by IOs: that one must have a lease that extends for 6 to 12 months after the application date. I'm not sure about the expectations of immigration offices, as well as how the resulting leases are interpreted by landlords.

In many places I've stayed, landlords don't even require a lease after the first one expires. One can continue on for months with no problem. But, as soon as immigration gets involved, and especially if the landlord serves as a witness for a marriage extension, things get a little weird. They seem to think they are somehow now responsible for our behavior and whereabouts.

Some assumptions: I do not believe a witness to a marriage extension application promises, by signing as a witness, anything other than that she has seen the husband and wife together frequently or believes they are truly living together as husband and wife. As far as leases go, I believe they are promises to pay rent for an apartment for a period of time, on the part of the renter, and promises to allow the renter access for a period of time in exchange for rent, on the part of the landlord.

I have never seen in any lease, or in visa and extension documentation, any mention of a promise by the lessee to physically live in an apartment under lease. Sure, I can understand that having a long-term lease is one indicator that a visa holder is seriously domiciled with his wife. But, there is nothing to stop one from having multiple apartments, or from going to the wife's home for a month, or from taking a few weeks vacation, for examples. If an alien moves to another location, I understand it is the responsibility of the new location's owner, and also the alien, to report the new location within a set time period, so that immigration can know where we are.

So, excuse the long-winded intro, but why are IOs and landlords often fixated on how long, after a visa extension is granted, one will stay in their apartment? What they should be concerned with is that if I am moving around, does my wife go with me. Right? My extension is predicated on whether I'm really married and living with my wife, right? Not on if I'm staying in one particular place or another. Why should I be made to feel that it's suspicious to travel around this lovely country? I mean, that's a big part of what many are here for, right?

Why am I worked up about this, you might ask? Well, my landlord decided to make it a requirement that if I want to use her older sister, who is a poo-baan(elder boss of the moo-ban) as a payan(witness) on my extension applications, I must pay my rent 6 to 12 months in advance. She hit me with this on the morning the police were coming for their marriage visa home visit a few months back. I had no choice but to go along with it. This feels to me more than a bit like extortion, and I'm (understandably?) wanting to find a new place to live. She cannot be reasoned with on this issue.

I still have a couple months left on my lease, which is pre-paid at this point, but I want to get out now. Somehow, I feel that the loss on rent that I will endure is not enough for them. They want to guarantee that I stay exactly here until the end of the lease. How is this logical or fair? There's more to this story, but I'll save that for possible discussion.

42 minutes ago, ujayujay said:

Buy aluminum foil and make a hat with it

Laugh from your cage soon.

6 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

You can physically bring into Thailand up to USD$20,000 without declaring it. Maybe open a bank account in a nearby country, transfer money to it, then visit it and withdraw U$19K and bring it into Thailand, once or more times a year, depending on your needs.

 

Until they've got CBDCs.

9 hours ago, SuperSaiyan said:

Philippines is the way to go. It's 20 years behind in time, like it or hate it. No taxes on world income, no visa hassles and by that I mean absolutely ZERO. More young marriage type girls available and they speak English and not just "I go boom boom".

 

Maybe this is another topic, or subject of ridicule, but I wonder if anyone has had success taking their Thai wife to live in the Philippines?

On 9/14/2023 at 7:42 PM, khunjake said:

Seems like a major hassle. If one has the means and likes to take a short break out of the country, just get a Non-O ME visa and you can just forget even dealing with these people. We had good, professional experience in Hua Hin but upcountry they were truly nasty and simply horrible to deal with. No way would I pay a single baht to any of them!

Yes. Thanks for the comment. It was my first experience in Isaan, and they're like piranhas stripping flesh off a carcass--very politely. 

I have a few doubts about doing it out of country. Maybe you know if they frown on doing it repeatedly? I plan on being here until the end, and if they will eventually refuse me from doing the Non-O ME, I could be SOL at some point. Secondly, my uncertainty around leaving the country should there be another plandemic, as many are expecting. I haven't been out for over 8 years, but my wife has been nudging for a trip to Laos or Vietnam lately. Cheers!

Since folks were generous with time and advice, I wish to add an epilogue to this chapter for any still tuning in or may chance upon this thread in the future.

Actually, depending, I might choose to open a new thread on the topic of "extortion in Isaan." :)

So, the date to pick up my new extension stamp arrived yesterday. According to the paperwork, it was finalized on the 17th, but I did not receive any such courtesy call to come in. As if they wanted to prolong my uncertainty to the max. I saw the paperwork, because they actually hand it to you here, at the outside reception window.

So, I got to sit and look through it as I was waiting. On the front page, I saw I had been approved! There were a couple printouts of "troublemaker" guys with similar names as mine who came up in their computer search. There was a page certifying that I was not one of those guys (they were like 30 years younger than me) and that I had a good record.

So, I got the good news as I was waiting for my stamp, which was nice. My number came up and I ended up with the exact same lady who had hassled me the day we applied. She seemed to remember me, but was very pleasant and businesslike, finishing my stamp in about 10 minutes. I thanked and wai'd her and she returned, showing they had also done and attached my new 90 day form. And, that was it, as if nothing had happened before. I grabbed this good luck and left, feeling light.

Nothing too exciting, so the folks who said it was a done deal were absolutely correct. For a month, I had the nagging feeling something could go wrong. But it was apparently for no reason--except that I had received a veiled threat the month before. I have rationalized this as part them not really being able to know when someone is a "bad person" or not, so they treat everyone as if they are. The other part I believe there could be something to the idea that they were hinting at a donation. If that is true, I think they are way too subtle in their hint. When we left the IO, my wife told me she overheard the same boss lady shaking down another hapless expat with the same routine. So, beware if you go there.

Speaking of bribes, donations, etc. I have more to say that I've been saving of the event of the IO home visit, regarding 2 instances of "additional costs" to this process. The first one, fairly common I'm fairly sure, was that the officers requested some help with petrol money. I didn't know what would be appropriate, so I sent my wife with 500. They actually suggested 1000, but were happy enough with what she had in hand.

The second instance, I would more likely call extortion. I've never heard of anything like it. We were unprepared for the requirement to have two witnesses with particular qualities. Nobody we knew around our place had tabien bahns in the district except our landlord. As I related earlier, her older sister is a Poo bahn here. She agreed to help on the morning of our visit, at the last second. But she had a condition: our landlord relayed to us that her sister had asked if we were planning to stay for a year or two, and would I make another new lease and pay the entire term up front! Can you imagine? 

My wife was either a genius or had a stroke of luck, so said the best thing. We had already submitted our six month lease with our app, so it would have to be five months. Of course, I had to agree to do this, and thanked my lucky stars this was money I planned to spend anyways. But, the coercive nature of what they did really rubbed me the wrong way. It reminds me of a much bigger example of the stereotypical thinking of shop owners here who raise their prices when business is bad. Before this happened, my wife and I had been talking about how we might actually want to stay for a while, since our landlord was to that point so helpful. However...

Sorry about the long-winded story. This was my first experience doing an extension in Isaan. I get the sense Isaan people are uniquely, "pragmatic." (?) But, I'm really not sure I'm going to be able to be happy out here if I'm going to deal with this. Considering BKK and other locations now. So much more food for thought. But, maybe some other days, some more posts.

Cheers to one more year!

30 minutes ago, steven100 said:

OP ....   In most countries if a crime is reported then the police act to catch the criminal as they know that's their role in society ... to serve the public and catch the criminals.  

 

But fat chance of that happening here  !   If there's nothing in it for the cops it goes in the 'to hard basket'  

They really are a lazy bunch ....  and it's endemic in the RTP.   

 

doesn't matter about your written story book on statistics,  the truth speaks for itself.....

I tend to agree. Maybe you're both right. It occurs to me that it's "visible crime" that's fairly quickly attended to. If there's allegations of theft or property damage, that's usually a different story.

14 hours ago, sherwood said:

All fun and games fella as said before. The IO called today and I can attain my stamp for my extension tomorrow.

Peace of mind what with the extra long weekend and all.

Keep in touch.

Congrats!

Update for anyone interested: Our officer visit was postponed from last Sunday to Monday morning by the officers. Sunday night, we heard from our landlord that her daughter would be unavailable for the entire week due to work. So we were scrambling Sunday night and Monday morning to find a new witness that met the criteria. "Miraculously," Monday morning, right before we were about to call the officers to try to postpone, our landlord enlisted her older sister. The bottom line was we passed our home visit, and are now waiting for the date next month when I'm due to collect my year extension. There're some details regarding how this all happened that were a little unpleasant, but not unexpected, considering where we are. I will save those for after I pick up my extension next month. Cheers.

41 minutes ago, sjbrownderby said:

If you do decide to go to Savannakhet you will find the process so much easier than dealing with immigration in Korat. If all of your paperwork is correct they don't ask any questions. The downside is having to leave the country every 90 days. The nearest border crossing to Korat is Chong Chom in Surin province. There is another border crossing which may open up soon in Buriram province, which will be closer to Korat. On the Cambodian side of the border there are casinos, resorts and a market but currently only Thais (with a border pass) and Cambodians can use it. 

Hey, thanks for the interesting details. I'm not keen on having to leave the country, especially after the insanity of the past few years and what some are predicting will happen once we hit the next cycle. But, I also saw that during those times, at least the last round, the government here was pretty accommodating to those stuck.

Anyway, if I do choose that route, we would likely move to Ubon sooner than our tentatively planned 6 months or so, and the Mukdahan bridge is less than two hours away from my wife's village there. So, there's that.

You might be wondering why we didn't just move to Ubon and do the extension there. Well, in hindsight... But, basically, my wife just came around to the idea a few weeks back when we went there to visit her grandfather in the hospital. We explored the city some more, liked it, and even visited immigration to ask what they thought. We ended up deciding we didn't have enough time to get it done now. So, we traded one hassle for another.

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

They obviously taken a disliking to you, or your wife. Best just smile, wai and do as they ask. One of you probably disrespected them. 

Can you expand on that? Did you read the whole post, that one of our witnesses had to go to work? They were very friendly and understanding. I just see this, at least this event, as an instance of unlucky timing. I don't feel punished that they will return. Also, I feel highly confident that we were appropriately respectful throughout our dealings.

5 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Drive to Khon Kaen and ask them if there is a problem. 

They will say, no, just apply in Korat. Ask for a contact number from one of the officers in Khon Kaen. 

Interesting idea. Not sure it would help, and we've already had our app accepted. I'm wondering if the District Headquarters even has a public desk that one can visit.

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

I don't think immigration can convert B to O, they sent me to MFA, but as you say the pandemic created unusual situations. I had to turn my ME Non O into a 12 month extension with a further 5 months remaining.

Yes. Interesting.

5 minutes ago, sherwood said:

Get over the final hurdle on Sunday and you will be fine. My stamp comes up on the 31st.

Best laid plans and all that.

Thanks. Yeah, I think there's just an outside chance things go south at this point. The "concerns" expressed were about rules that don't seem to exist. So, seems unlikely they could be used to deny. We just don't know for sure. But, I've got a much more solid sense of alternatives now, beyond the speculation around machinations in Korat. Whatever happens, happens. Best of luck with your own 

24 minutes ago, sherwood said:

I think the changes from their previous congeniality stems from the problems at District 4 HQ, KohnKaen. Something to do with bogus dealings with the Chinese.

 

Clean broom and more scrutiny.

I just play the game and smile while being mucked about, not much else I can do.

Cheers

Hadn't heard about that, but it fits my hunch, though higher up. It also fits what the super was saying when we were there. Worrying is that this seems to provide the possibility that all the other assurances that since my application was accepted here already, that I'm a shoe-in, could be mistaken.

2 minutes ago, sherwood said:

Yep, all good fun.

I would still go with the two Tabien Baan thingy but if you're dealing with the IO at desk #2 then non related witnesses would be the best option.

Just from my experience of 20 days ago.

Good luck fella.

It seems Korat has more diverse practices than some other immigration offices? To me, it's maybe a sign of new supervision. Someone got promoted, things got loose. Dunno. Government people, in my experience (I worked in a Rajabhat), have a terrible time admitting when they don't know something. Even more pressure than in the civilian population. Then they often get caught out when they start winging it...

14 minutes ago, sherwood said:

There seems to be a problem for some about the validity of my above post so I will give you a little more info on my recent experience.

Received the under consideration stamp and informed of the house visit, would need to produce two witnesses no problem.

Police turn up do their thing and leave after saying everything was fine.

Next day wife gets a call from the IO from window 2, Korat asking us to bring in another witness as the two old girls we presented were related, ie, sisters but no relation to my wife. Different blue books and all.

We took another lady into the office and was assured that all was in order, again.

Just the luck of the draw but how they interpret the rules is a mystery to me.

The same two original old girls were my witnesses five years ago on my first Non O extension.

Go figure.

I have a potentially very interesting update to relay. The pair of Korat's finest left us a little while ago.

We will be receiving a second visit on Sunday, by just one of them. The reason is thus: We were prepared, as requested, for a visit "after 10am" with 2 witnesses, Our landlord and her daughter. The daughter took off work for half a day to be here for us. They were late and didn't show until about 14:00. This daughter had to go back to work at 13:00. There was discussion among all of us.

Our landlord offered to bring a second daughter out who was asleep in their house, which is adjacent to our building. This was unacceptable because, dunh dunh dunh, that daughter is on the same Tabien Baan as her mother, the landlord.

The first daughter lives somewhere else and has a separate Tabien Baan, so would have been acceptable, ding. But she must work today through Saturday.

I brought up getting the security guy from the shopping mall entrance down the soi, but we didn't think he'd have his Tabien Baan with him for work. The food stall lady nearby was disqualified because she doesn't live in Amphur Mueang, where we do.

The main IO guy was mai bpen rai'ing and saying we still have time, and he can come back Sunday.

So, at least for now for these IOs in Korat, if we put this all together, the requirements seem to be that there must be two witnesses, and they can be related, but must be on different Tabien Baans, which must be in the same Amphur. Wow. Hope this is helpful to someone.

2 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

 You could try that. Take along your smartphone with Google translate or similar to help with your conversation. However for a marriage extension application your wife needs to be present to sign various documents.

Thanks, I would but I think we're already beyond that point.