Uli

Let's take it easy on the OP. He's asked a question and that's what needs to be responded to.

You will have to decide how important it is to you to get paid (and the amount involved). I understand that the Ministry of Labor may be able to help you. If you worked, then you should be paid and if you have reasonable evidence that you did work and there was an agreement, then you maybe able to get your money.

The issue of no work permit is a different issue and it may come around and bite you in the behind, but if the MOL decides you worked and you should get paid, then you can face that issue later, if you chose to do so.

Scott, you mention the MOL. My case is quite different since I work with a work permit for 7 years at a large public university. I get paid by the course with usually 14-16 courses a year. The number of courses assigned to me dropped over the last 12 months so much that I cannot make ends meet anymore. I now have to leave this university and look for a new job.

Certainly, I feel cheated since this came without any comment from the university - it just happened. Do you know where in the MOL I can go and file a complaint?

I have also checked the two URL's to the site you quoted. I'm still unsure or dubious (doubtful). Since an entire three months have transpired since you started this topic, and we are far closer to the starting date, would you please tell us the current status? I live in Chiang Mai: where do I enroll? Who are the professors? Where is a list of the subjects and courses to be taught?

Who says we have to have a bachelor degre or higher IN EDUCATION (your emphasis)? What is her name and phone number, who decrees on high that we must have such degrees? And this applies where, outside the BMA's oversight of private EP and bilingual programs? Details, please, or I am tempted to close the topic entirely after deleting the URL's which don't answer such relevent questions.

Thanks, Uli. I still suspect that the staff at the uni pulled a fast one on the European, but I'm often mistaken.

Hello!

Please let me start with describing my role in the game. I am a lecturer in the international program in Business Administration and in Mass Communication Technology for almost 5 years now. My interests are in teaching in the Graduate Diploma program since I expect it to bring me together with highly interesting students. I don't teach in the B.A. (English) program, but in the smokers' corner, I am always available for a chat. There, I meet experienced teachers aged between 25 and 50 almost every day who join us for years to do their Bachelor degree. Their initial motivation might have been to secure their future in the job, but when you speak with them, they all tell you that they learned plenty of useful things that will make them better teachers. Any quality increase in education does not start with state law, it starts on the individual level of each teacher. You are very welcome to drop us a visit and have chat with them yourself.

My starting point in this area was an information I got from the director of IIS that we will offer this program in English and in Chinese Program from November this year. He also told me that RU offers it in the Thai program as well.

Questions around teaching licenses or working conditions of teachers at Thai schools are not my field of expertise. I just tried to find out why RU suddenly offers such a program in all major languages spoken in Thailand and, even more interesting, for such a low tuition fee (it's almost a third of what a similar program costs at ABAC). This research brought me to the National Education Act from 1999 (http://www.edthai.com/act/index.htm#Chapter%206). A closer description of the licensing rules based on this act (which is current law in Thailand) stems from an APEID conference in 1999 (http://www.edthai.com/reform/jan20e.htm). In chapter 3, point 5, the author describes the then-time requirements to obtain such as license: "(5.1) Thai nationality, (5.2) At least 18 years of age, and (5.3) Bachelor's degree in Education or higher. Holders of degrees other than education need to be trained to meet the standard of teaching profession."

The rest are conclusions, no more hard facts are available. Thailand is very careful of keeping the international recognition of its educational system, which is - surprisingly for some - quite high. One of our Ph.D. graduates at IIS last year became an tenure Assistant Professor of Marketing at Northern State University in the U.S., for instance, and we have quickly growing numbers of German students joining us for a semester abroad (with the credits accepted at German universities, of course).

November this year, the possibility to earn a degree in education of at least Bachelor level (the Graduate Diploma is a higher academic degree than a bachelor) in Thai, English, and in Chinese will be in place, even for a (more or less) affordable tuition fee (to offer it for such a low fee is a typical job for the largest Thai State University).

This program is obviously not installed because of an enormous market demand (discussion in this forum seem to confirm this assumption). There must be another reason - guess which one. My personal conclusion is that, after everything is in place, the qualification requirements coming from the 1999 Education Act will be enforced for foreign teachers as well (as the Chinese program shows, not only for Westerners who may be a tiny minority among all the foreign teachers at Thai schools). On an international scale, this is desirable and somehow overdue.

Thanks for trying to keep your sarcasm down, by the way. I try the same, but for me it's still ridiculous to assume that a language-school granted TEFL certificate might be seen as a sufficient qualification to teach as a teacher at school.

I apologize for not following this threat on a regular basis. I am not interesting in discussions below the belt. Anyone is welcome to contact me either by personal message in this forum or over the IIS Web site. If one does not want to study for this degree, it's fine.

Anyway, the discussion about qualifications to teach at Thai schools is desperately necessary, especially among those who already teach there. If they don't meet new (increased) formal qualification requirements, the state has, at least, to offer them a way they can go. That is what will be in place from November. The academic degree (anyone) is often a formal requirement, so it is in the matter of getting a teaching license.

This program at IIS is not a training how to deal in class with role games of certain more or less typical situations (which target group: pre-primary, primary, lower or upper secondary, specials needs, etc - that needs years rather than months if that should be included). This program is an academic degree program and, as such, very much theory. It is up to the lecturers to design the theory in a way that it meets students' needs. Exactly this is the reason why I posted the message in this and other forums - and I learned a lot. This will help me and my colleagues to design our courses as good as any possible.

If one wants to study it or not, sorry, is a question everybody has to answer for her-/himself. But if so, it should be good, independent of any licensing background or political policies probably forcing students to study it.

This is the current state of the program you asked for: We are in the design phase (with much pleasure since it is the most creative one). We know that the program starts in November, we know the 8 courses of which the program consists, we know (round about) the tuition fee, and not much more. The official translation of the curriculum is expected to be available some when in September this year. We don't expect is to come up with any surprises, it's just a normal procedure within the university bureaucracy. How the single course looks depends on the lecturer conducting it. The lecturers will be assigned in September or October next year. I made the experience at IIS that the lecturer with the best concept and a personal motivation to conduct this particular course will be asked to do so.

So, that's all what I know. Be sure that I permanently work on the design of this program and keep in touch with colleagues who would best fit in terms of their teaching experience in Thailand as well as their academic background and professional experience. Theory can focus very much on practice, and in this program, it should be that way.

Best regards,

Ulrich Werner

Am I missing something?

After reading this thread a couple of times I am at a loss to understand why Ram or the Thai government would target people already holding a Bachelors degree for improvement. Although I think an educational advancement opportunity is generally a great idea, what problem is solved or addressed by this move?

...

MPL

Hello, MPL!

The requirement for a license is not a Bachelor degree from any field but a Bachelor degree or higher in education. That's where this update opportunity for degree holders from fields other than education comes from.

Uli

Hello, Alan!

For the international program at Ramkhamhaeng University, have a look at http://www.iis.ru.ac.th.

If you're interested, just send you CV per e-mail in advance and make an appointment with the director short-term. I guess, you will like it.

I'm a lecturer for almost 5 years in that program.

Uli

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

If any BA degree qualifies a person to take this course then it is nothing more than a TEFL program with a different name.

Why would anyone with a BA and TEFL waste their time and money with another course thats not required by the Thai government to teach.

Most regular teachers in Thailand with BA degrees and TEFL already have a teaching license.

Hi!

Law changes, and according to the publications from MOE, Teacher Council of Thailand, and others, these regular teachers will learn about the changes when trying to renew their teacher licence.

I don't put any information on the IIS Web site that is not proven. I guess, the sheer existence of the program announced would be quite astonishing if nobody will need it.

Best regards,

Uli

IIS is the international program of Ramkhamhaeng University, located on the main campus in Huamark, Bangkapi. We are currently putting the elements for a Graduate Diploma in Teaching Profession together and ask for support of those to who it's offered. The program starts from November this year. Please find the details at (deleted).

The Graduate Diploma is a 24 semester-credit program for holders of any recognized Bachelor degree. Graduates are eligible to receive the Licence for Practicing Teaching at Thai Schools.

Due to IIS' modular system, the program can be studied full-time four months (four class days per week, 9 am to 4 pm) or part-time 8 months (Saturday and Sunday). Another idea is a sandwich model with 4 courses in March and April, followed by two evening classes per week and the rest in October. In all cases, tuition fee is about 52,000 Baht and includes the full program, all textbooks and handouts.

Which program (or all three) in fact will be offered in November depends much on the number of students registering for it (it needs at least 20 students).

To make it simpler and to come closer to our target group, I would like to ask you to take part in the integrated poll - if you are a potential candidate for this Graduate Diploma, wich schedule would you prefer?

Many thanks for your cooperation! For any questions, suggestions, or critics, please e-mail me!

Best regards,

Ulrich Werner

My warm greeting to Ladphrao from Ladphrao Soi 140!

At least with regard to the perspective, we definitely agree 

We currently have around 200 foreign students from over 30 countries on five continents. Considering their needs, having a Thai lecturer is an important part of cultural experience.

As more prominent (‘elite’) an institution, as more applications are submitted. From these applications, the institution can choose those who have the greatest potential. The average student quality so is quite high.

With regard to this, Ram is sure not an elite university and its international program is not an elite program. This is well in line with the task of Ram to offer affordable education to anybody as an open-admission university.

This situation gives people like me (sorry for mentioning my personal approach again) the freedom to develop new ways of teaching techniques, applied seminars, and so on. In contrast to far the most of my colleagues, I permanently live in Thailand and do for three years now nothing more than learning how Thai students, in combination with foreign students, develop best.

Eventually, we will agree that there is no ‘never’ in nationality or other characteristics. Besides personal qualification (that is in no way limited to the number of publications or degrees), even a very typical (in my quite negative diction) Thai lecturer fits well into an approach of diversity. Thai students did not expect anything different at all, and for the foreign students it is a cultural experience. We all have a cognitive blueprint by the societies we come from. For Thai students today, however, the Thai societal cognitive blueprint is unlikely helpful, and (apart very few exceptions) a Thai professor remains what it says, a Thai professor.

My apologies when I did not make my point clear enough. The university system is not my topic. Too little information is available worldwide on what it needs to prepare students for a globalised environment with ever-speeding changes and in which degree knowledge looses importance against skills.

Best regards,

Uli

Certainly, no one is a bad lecturer only because of being Thai, and no foreigner automatically a good lecturer. Please don't understand me black-and-white.

However, there are some environmental and societal aspects coming along with Thai professors. First, after receiving their PhD they have to overtake administrative tasks, far more than in any Western university. As it was stated by Suntaree Komin (Psychology of the Thai People, NIDA 1991), this is still a typical academic career in Thailand that hardly leaves any room for being state of the art.

State of the art does not mean elite, it simply means to know and understand what is going on at the frontiers in one's own field of expertise.

Second, again with regard to Komin, within Thai society knowledge is regarded a personal issue. This means if you criticise one's knowledge or lack of it, you criticise the person, and that is not acceptable. Any academic or open discussions are impossible with the vast majority of Thai professors, at least outside very private face-to-face environments. This may be the reason why hardly any Thai researchers publish in English as well.

To avoid such personal criticism, the vast majority sticks close to the textbooks and performs lectures in the traditional understanding of this word.

Western professors (I don't speak about less costly colleagues from India or Bangladesh who increasingly appear in international programs now since I don't know them) are different in their communication style and in focussing more on skills than on factual knowledge. Again, I don't want to generalize, but from my experience, I can say it that way.

This difference is not a matter of the number of PhDs one may hold, or of purely academic honours. I come from management, for example, and as such, I am more a coach than a pure academic is. Over the past three years, I was lucky to see how these approaches of my Western colleagues (includes two Korean colleagues as well) and my own led to skill development among our students.

I am sorry to say that, but in three universities (one for three years, one for eight months, and one for one and a half year, the latter two in parallel to the first one), I found less Thai colleagues interested in skill development than I have fingers on one hand.

I am sorry that you think I am unfair against our Thai colleagues. However, your general defence does not meet my experiences either, nor those of international program students at Chula, Thammasat, Burapha, and others who are discussing with me per e-mail.

In my humble opinion, an international program is something else than a Thai program with Thai students and Thai lecturers (and, may be, an English language teacher) conducted in English. If a university cannot afford to offer, appropriate quality or does not find enough students who are willing to pay for that quality, this university is simply not competitive. There is a need neither for each university to offer such a program, nor for any student to study it. D'accord?

Hi!

May I make a comment from a university's point of view? I get the school leavers into the international program at Ramkhamhaeng University (http://www.iis.ru.ac.th), with 80% of the Thai students coming from normal (means in best case mini-english program) schools. Over the four years of bachelor studies, you can't see much difference between those coming from "cheap" governmental schools and those coming from "expensive" international schools.

The difference is elsewhere - all students whose parents took care and spoke with them tend to perfom well. All those students parked at an international school are underperformers.

So, if you tend to take part in the development of your children, I would indeed suggest to give them into a Thai governmental school. The rest your children will learn in their private environment by copying and discussing, as long there is a family that works as such.

It is true that students who graduated at a well-named international school speak much better English. However, it needs a while to find out that this is the only difference. There is no more background knowledge, no better understanding of complex environments, no interest in reading something with less than 80% pictures in it, and so on. The result of their quite good oral skills is that we, at university level, assume them to be "better" and concentrate more on those assumed "weaker". Eventually, the "weaker" students perform almost always much better than the "better" ones.

If you would like to know about particular schools, drop us a visit and speak with our students who graduated at these schools.

Doing it the Thai way (expensive equals good) has a good potential to damage your children.

Sorry for such clear words, but they are intended to show the problem rathen than to speak nicely :-)

Uli

There is, besides Ramkhamhaeng University, a second open university in Thailand, Sukhothai Thammatirat Open University. While Ramkhamhaeng runs currently 20 campuses for its over 600,000 students, STOU focuses more on distance learning.

I cannot offer any personal contacts. However, as far as I know the university fields here, having an online tutor for IT fields available is always a nice option for a state university.

Have a look at http://www.stou.ac.th/Eng/, and don't forget to ask your wife for having a look on the Thai version that appears to be more comprehensive.

From my experience, you may want to write a conventional snail-mail letter to the respective faculties and one to the president of the university. That a university practices distance learning does not automatically mean online learning, and even then it is not sure that you ever receive an answer if you write an e-mail. Anyway, a normal letter is widely considered more serious.

Furthermore, there is an international program BSc Computer Information Systems conducted in English at Payap University in Chiang Mai (http://www.payap.ac.th/english/). As far as I know, lectures are once a week for three hours - that might not endanger your business.

If you check one or both options out, I would appreciate to learn about your experiences.

Best regards,

Uli

Hi, mbk,

you're welcome ;-)

Cu,

Uli

My apologies for the many writing mistakes. One should not publish in a forum when in a rush.

I will tell my students :-)

Uli

So your prices sound about right to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks a lot :-)

Anyway, I don't want to advertise our programs. Ramkhamhaeng is a State Open University with the duty to make education possible and affordable to everybody.

Many of our expats have children they want to send to a university. Not everbody is so well suited to be able to afford sending them abroad.

After working quite a while, I today tend to say that as better known the brand (university name, as more students in the international programs get cheated, with a probalbe exception by Thammasat and Chulalongkorn and very few others.

Since everybody knows in Thailand that Western professors are expensive, everybody expects an international program being more expensive than a Thai program. In Thailand, we have since the last educational reform about two years ago, 120 Thai (private and public) universities plus AIT (Asian Institute of Technology in Rangsit).

Under pressure by educational reform and public relations, more and more universities offer an International College to compete on this lucrative market. Each university says the same to school leavers: We have experienced international lecturers, modern books, and multimedia classroom equipment.

When you look behind the curtains, the "experienced international lecturers" consist of one or two English teachers, the rest are Thai professors who received a PhD many years ago from a second-class Australian or U.S. university, and since then were very busy with administrative tasks rather than doing research or keeping in touch with their fields.

The "modern books" often turn out to be copies of U.S. college books from a few years ago. Even when new books are copied, the digital complement delivered with these books (companion Web sites, additional readings, short movies, and so on) are certainly not copied.

The multimedia classroom environment turns out to be a nicely renovated room with air-condition and good optics, bad ergonomics. A TV set is usally available, but if you look for a computer and and beamer for your PowerPoints - that is ordered already and will come soon. Can you so long print your PowerPoints out?

Coincidentally, the dean of such a new college very often is the president of the university. Officially, because he / she wants to show to public how meaningful this college is. With regard to the higher tuition fee, I cannot stop to have the idea that additional duties are paid separately ...

In good as in bad international programs, the students are always the same - curious, unexperienced, and nice people. It depends very much on the institution whether they will develop those skills needed to work succesfully in an international environment after graduating.

Do I need to say that those less nice programs usually cost double the tuition fee?

Among brand-devouted Thais, Ramkhamhaeng is of lowest value. Among foreign students from currently 33 students who do not know anything about the brand ranking among Thai universities in public perception, Ramkhamhaeng international program is obviously of highest value (otherwise, they would drop out quickly).

Within this limited environment of an expat community, I just try to start a (certainly, quite limited) discussion with colleagues and those who are on the customer side, may it be parents, future students, or friends of both.

Uli

I just browsed all these postings in education fields. Interesting, how prices vary for international and EP schools. I would like to add an information on making the next step, an academid degree in an international program (English program, for business administration degrees there is a Chinese program since recently as well).

For three years now, I work as an adjunct professor at Thailand's largest university, Ramkhamhaeng University. Degrees offered in the international program are Bachelor of Business Administration, Bachelor of Arts (Mass Communication), and Bachelor of Arts (English Language). Tuition fee for these programs including books is 60-70,000 Baht per year.

Master programs (250,000 for two years part-time) include MBA, MA (Political Science), and MEd (Educational Administration).

PhD (Political Science) is 750,000 Baht, PhD (Business Administration) is 1 mio Baht.

There are less than 10% Thai lecturers. Allmost all professors are 'imported' for one month to conduct their course. The hold chairs at well-known universities, mainly in the United States and Europe. They certainly apply their own standards to their courses what contributes to the overall quality and state-of-the-art lecturers as well.

For more information, just have a look at http://www.iis.ru.ac.th. In case of questions, don't hesitate to ask me ([email protected]).

Other universities charge much higher prices and, then, offer the Thai program with Thai lecturers who try to speak some English. These lecturers are considered well able to teach in an international program when they received a PhD 15 years ago from a second class university in Australia or the US. Sorry, when I say it that clear, but I have first hand experience from conducting lectures at other well-named universities in Thailand as well.

I want to invite all those who teach in such international programs

a) to challenge that in which I work (we only can get better)

to share their experiences

Have a nice day!

Uli

Hm, I reject 'social science' as well as 'computer science'.

However, I teach Business Information and Communication Systems (BA, BBA, MBA, PhD seminars) at Ramkhamhaeng University and Advertising at Burapha University.

Any colleagues in these fields?

Best regards,

Uli

Isn't a sort of freedom? I guess, we all know that most Thai people do not like Gatoeys. However, they respect them since the individual may be a good person ('khon dee').

It's simply one of many elements that invites people to integrate into Thai society. Maybe, I worked in too many countries already where most of my every day problems simply resulted from the fact that I am a foreigner.

Personally, sometimes, I have my problems with gatoeys. Some people are good people, some are less so, but did we not all learn that in our countries of origin the hard way, too? However, that are my problems, and not necessarily the problems of a society.

Finally, let me ask: Why not?

Best regards,

Uli