chiangmaikelly

Now I'm confused. What has the 'rice policy' to do with spending on government? Is a possible 260 billion loss spent on government? Is the famous Thai special (aka 30% rule) money spent on government?

The topic is a wake-up call to the government related to the 'rice policy'. That's enough disaster for on topic, no need to go into corruption here.

Moodys says the Thai government is spending too much money. I am saying in relationship to other countries with better credit ratings maybe it is not.

The topic is a warning by Moodys about the government expenditures for rice pledging not just rice pledging alone. So I am saying perhaps Moodys should look at the total expenditures for government in light of what other governments spend.

Moodys said, "These recent losses, and any further losses from the unmodified rice-buying scheme, increase the difficulty of the government's task of reaching its goal of a balanced budget by2017, and are credit negative for the Thai sovereign." http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/06/05/uk-thailand-rice-idUKBRE9540MK20130605

So Moodys point is really about a balanced budget by 2017 which is about the total Thai budget not just rice pledging.

no, GDP is a perfectly reaonable yardstick to use. i estimated the cost of the progarm and i put that estimate in the context of gdp. that is what people do when they talk about economics. perhaps if you read more economic type analysis and get yourself a bit better educated you may get used to the concept of gdp. people compare all kinds of things to gdp...tax, debt, interest on debt, spending on x, y, z...rice programs....the rice scheme doesn't seem sensible but it won't by itself break thailand's back as it is too small a % of gdp top be able to do that.

and by the way, gdp is not just the private sector. even a communist state with no private sector would still have a gdp. so you are talking rubbish. instead of talking rubbish why don't you get off your high horse, donkey, kangeroo....wharever...and listen to what people have to say...

I agree that It is common to compare to GDP. However, 1.5% just doesn't seem to show the enormity of the cost. For example, China spends 2% of its GDP on military. So if this rice scheme shows even slightly larger losses, it would mean that in relation to its GDP, Thailand waists more money on rice, than china spends on its military!!

Yes agree 100%, GDP is a common yardstick. But using it in this particular context really does not show the magnitude of things. Thailand spends only 0.75% of its GDP on "defense"....

I think your underestimating the gravity of the situation.

The economist says that high purchase prices of about 50-60% above the prevailing market price combined with failure to cap purchases, has made the Thai government the world’s largest rice trader. Rice stockpiles have reached record highs of over 12.5 million tons, and the cost of procurement, handling and storage is likely to cause a loss equivalent to 5% of its GDP, he adds. http://www.oryza.com/content/southeast-asia-expert-rice-mortgage-scheme-may-cost-thailand-5-gdp

"While financing of Thailand's budget deficits is supported by the country's deep onshore capital markets, the growing losses from the rice buying scheme and the potential need for additional government funding resulting from the continuation of the scheme increasingly jeopardise a reduced deficit, which we previously forecast will be 3.1 per cent of GDP in fiscal 2013," the statement said. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-petition-to-be-filed-tomorrow-Warong-30207546.html

Last month the World Bank said that Thailand spent 376 billion baht (U.S.$12.5 billion) or 3.4 percent of GDP on the rice scheme during the 2011/2012 harvest season (October 2011 to September 2012). It further estimated that the Thai government will spend 450 billion ($15 billion) or around 3.8 percent of GDP for the 2012/2013 harvest season. #

How much does Thailand spend on government in comparison to other countries? What is average? Australia is 34.3% of the GDP. Thailand is 17.7%. Germany is 43.7% . France is 52.8% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending

I wonder looking at the above if Thailand is getting a bum rap. Maybe Thailand government spending at 17.7% of GDP is not so bad?

Don't forget that the majority of rice farm owners are not poor and a goodly percentage are not Thai but front companies for Foreign investors, some of whom were personally brought to Thailand by Thaksin to inspect the rice paddys.

Angry Farmers, Unsold Rice: Thai Intervention Near Crisis? www.cnbc.com/id/100598755

You are providing links that I can't discuss because the source is the Bangkok post.

But this one, "http://www.cnbc.com/id/100598755" Pretty much proves that the farmers are getting the money.

From your link,

I've had to wait for two months," said Prasert Chamsopa, 66, a farmer in the rice-growing province of Suphan Buri who had sold 35 tons of paddy to the government.

In early March, a senior official at Thailand's Commerce Ministry tested the water by suggesting the government could stop paying the high price for rice. The reaction in the countryside was immediate and angry: the Thai Farmers Association threatened to bring thousands of farmers to Bangkok to protest against the move.

The Commerce Ministry official said the government might also consider stopping buying 18 varieties of fast-growing rice of lower quality, which farmers have used to squeeze in more crops to cash in on the intervention scheme.

You are always so confused about everything CMK, and/or, you are forever an annoying TROLL.

What am I confused about? The farmers are getting the rice pledging money. If you have any factual information to the contrary post it.

Houses depreciate in price in Thailand, the land on which it is built will appreciate. The wife owns the land the hubby can own the house..who gets the best deal!!

Regardless of price differential anyone who has sold a property in the uk to re-invest in a house here and has no other assets, that is a suicidal financial decision whatever the motive for buying.Making such a decision implies you can't afford a house here in the first place and shouldn't have bought.

Buying here seems to be a very emotional decision yet at home it is a more practical one.No one in their rational moments would hand over all their cash to buy an asset with no real protection. Sh.t happens in life, here or in the uk..

I have met many farangs who have bought not knowing the law, even the documents involved,documents only in Thai never got them translated, don't know rules of Inheritance, no will in place for the wife or girlfriend on purchase..

A bit off topic but the prices need to be way lower than the uk just to reflect the risks involved and the undeniable ignorance of most farang buyers.

So house values are dependant on marital status in the UK and Thailand?

I realize you guys have only one point and that is to bash the current government and Thaksin. I'm trying to be polite and answer your questions but the thread is about Moodys warning to Thailand and not Thaksin coming back to town. Is Moodys warning a wake up call? If not it should be. Do you folks disagree?

I did ask you what you expect the result of the wake-up to be. Perhaps now that you are back on topic might be a good time to answer.

I answered before. Nothing. The government will not do anything.

Thailand’s total rice exports in the first quarter (Q1) of 2013 (January – March) 796,304 tons.

In terms of value, total rice exports earned Thailand about 33.36 billion baht.

Average export prices of white rice in Q1 2013 stood at around $573 per ton, up around 1.5% from around $565 per ton in Q1 2012. Average prices of Pathumthani rice increased to around $989 per ton in Q1 2013, up around 8% from around $916 per ton in the same period last year, while average Hommali rice export prices in Q1 2013 stood at around $1,042 per ton, up around 10% from around $944 per ton recorded in the first quarter of 2012.

Ok so whats your point?

GJ wrote, "Just reading through some of the articles in world newspapers about the mountains of rotting rice, and I simply do not know how the Thai rice industry is going to recover. Who on earth would want to risk buying the stuff."

Millions of Thai rice is being bought and sold every day. The price of one kind of rice is up another is down. Nothing is changed. The market is a bit down. The above poster is talking about the sky falling and it's not. There are no mountains of rotting rice.

18 Million tons of rice in storage and 796 304 tons sold in the first quarter. That leaves 17 203 696 Tons. Now if i were to dump that in your Garden you would think it was a frakking mountain.

No one has suggested dumping rice in a garden. Do you really think your post is adult? Rice is stored in a rice warehouse or silo.

Yes there is mountains of rotting rice.....

No there are not mountains of rotting rice.....

Just reading through some of the articles in world newspapers about the mountains of rotting rice, and I simply do not know how the Thai rice industry is going to recover. It has been set back at least ten years. Who on earth would want to risk buying the stuff. If I were shopping for rice in the supermarket back in the UK now the choice between a bag of Thai Jasmine (normal choice) and Indian rice would be easy. I wouldn't buy Thai rice again for years.

For some reason the penny never clicked until a few days ago that one of the guys heavily involved in running this scam is the one facing terrorist charges and the one who called for the burning of Bangkok, Nattawut himself.

Thailand’s total rice exports in the first quarter (Q1) of 2013 (January – March) 796,304 tons.

In terms of value, total rice exports earned Thailand about 33.36 billion baht.

Average export prices of white rice in Q1 2013 stood at around $573 per ton, up around 1.5% from around $565 per ton in Q1 2012. Average prices of Pathumthani rice increased to around $989 per ton in Q1 2013, up around 8% from around $916 per ton in the same period last year, while average Hommali rice export prices in Q1 2013 stood at around $1,042 per ton, up around 10% from around $944 per ton recorded in the first quarter of 2012.

Ok so whats your point?

GJ wrote, "Just reading through some of the articles in world newspapers about the mountains of rotting rice, and I simply do not know how the Thai rice industry is going to recover. Who on earth would want to risk buying the stuff."

Millions of Thai rice is being bought and sold every day. The price of one kind of rice is up another is down. Nothing is changed. The market is a bit down. The above poster is talking about the sky falling and it's not. There are no mountains of rotting rice.

BANGKOK, Dec 19 – Thailand’s financial loss from its two-year rice pledging scheme should reach Bt247 billion (US$8.2 billion), or 1 to 1.3 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP), a World Bank economist said today.

http://www.mcot.net/...68#.UbF1t8X7srE

This is an absurd comparison, leading to the 1 to 1.3 percent number. Which sounds small. But that is in essence comparing gross to net. Tip off is the word GROSS domestic product. Meaning they are comparing the value of all products produced in Thailand, against the direct loss of the rice program.

If you took the GDP number and came up with a sort of averaged profit from that production, then compared that number to the rice loss, that would be more accurate. And far more stunning to the downside....

All government programs are measured in percent of GDP. It is SOP for any economy. Any news story. Any money story. It's basic economics.

Once again this deliberate mis-speak is trotted out by the newspapers as a "fact" which originated with the current government.

The FARMERS are NOT getting the high prices.

It is the MIDDLEMEN who are being paid high prices for the rice they are buying at lower prices, often on phoney excuses (sorry but your rice is not the highest quality Mr. rice farmer, we can't pay you the official price for that rice), which the MIDDLEMEN then resell to the government as prime quality high-grade rice at the official rice.

And why is this being done .... or more importantly allowed ..... by the government?

Because the people buying the rice and re-selling it to the government are supporters of the government, and the government is buying their support with tax revenue buying the middleman's rice at inflated prices.

Tax fraud is illegal, a illegality is a sin ....... therefore could you not call an illegality done with tax revenues a

Tax Sin.

I think the farmers are gettng the money, perhaps a bit late but getting it. The only place I have read that they are not getting the money is on Thai Visa. Do you have any links to news stories that the farmers are not getting the money.

Don't forget that the majority of rice farm owners are not poor and a goodly percentage are not Thai but front companies for Foreign investors, some of whom were personally brought to Thailand by Thaksin to inspect the rice paddys.

Angry Farmers, Unsold Rice: Thai Intervention Near Crisis? www.cnbc.com/id/100598755

You are providing links that I can't discuss because the source is the Bangkok post.

But this one, "http://www.cnbc.com/id/100598755" Pretty much proves that the farmers are getting the money.

From your link,

I've had to wait for two months," said Prasert Chamsopa, 66, a farmer in the rice-growing province of Suphan Buri who had sold 35 tons of paddy to the government.

In early March, a senior official at Thailand's Commerce Ministry tested the water by suggesting the government could stop paying the high price for rice. The reaction in the countryside was immediate and angry: the Thai Farmers Association threatened to bring thousands of farmers to Bangkok to protest against the move.

The Commerce Ministry official said the government might also consider stopping buying 18 varieties of fast-growing rice of lower quality, which farmers have used to squeeze in more crops to cash in on the intervention scheme.

We have sent our letter to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra that we don’t agree to cut the intervention price,” said Vichien Phuanglamjiak, vice-president of the Thai Rice Farmers Association, which represents 700 to 800 farmers. “And if we don’t get an appropriate response, we will stage a protest and it would be a big one.”

Thai Rice Farmers Threaten Protest if Intervention Price Cut

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

If the farmers are not getting the money why would they protest?

The policy was specifically aimed at raising the income of POOR rice farmers. Do you have any proof that the 700-800 members of the TRFA are not wealthy land owners? As a % of the supposed million rice farmers, it is pretty small, wouldn't you agree?

700 or 800 people as opposed to 0 people. Seems like a lot.

Your policy of not answering questions continues. 800 of a million is 0.08%, and not that far off 0 by my accounting, but the relevance of that escapes me.

Number of middlemen presented by OzMick as gaining money from the rice scheme = 0 Number of farmers presented by CMK as receiving money from the rice scheme = 800.

Every country has problems and graft. If it is 1 to 3 percent of the GDP no one is going to complain. Beyond that people complain incuding Moodys which they are doing now. Is the Moodys threat a wake up call for the government? Yes I think so.

This is the loss from one policy, and it has little to do with GDP except that you prefer it to make the percentages smaller.

Now that they have woken up, what do you expect to happen? Will the PM admit she has wasted huge amounts (and she has no idea how much) on a failed policy? should that admission of failure and incompetence not lead to a resignation?

Will they cancel the policy forthwith, and lose all those votes? Or continue to throw good money after lost?

Do I think the average Thai knows about it? Yes. Do I think the average Thai cares? No (they didn't get charged for it in an obvious way). Do I think it will topple the government? No. 40% of the population want Thaksin back and until he is brought back and defeated in an election there will be problems.

PS: Percent of GDP is the way things are measured by governments. People use percent of personal income. For example I spend 20% on housing and 10% on food.

Links please.

For what?

I think the farmers are gettng the money, perhaps a bit late but getting it. The only place I have read that they are not getting the money is on Thai Visa. Do you have any links to news stories that the farmers are not getting the money.

do you have any figures to prove they are getting it, touche ,,,,,,, end of chat i believe,,

We have sent our letter to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra that we don’t agree to cut the intervention price,” said Vichien Phuanglamjiak, vice-president of the Thai Rice Farmers Association, which represents 700 to 800 farmers. “And if we don’t get an appropriate response, we will stage a protest and it would be a big one.”

Thai Rice Farmers Threaten Protest if Intervention Price Cut

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

If the farmers are not getting the money why would they protest?

The policy was specifically aimed at raising the income of POOR rice farmers. Do you have any proof that the 700-800 members of the TRFA are not wealthy land owners? As a % of the supposed million rice farmers, it is pretty small, wouldn't you agree?

700 or 800 people as opposed to 0 people. Seems like a lot.

The poor farmer is getting it alright, right up the drainage canal.

The rate of rural poverty has gone from 27% in 2008 to 17% in 2011. I think the farmers are happy.

Keep trying the strawman argument (do you know what that means?) It doesn't matter who pays the tax, or how much they pay, tax revenue belongs to the people of Thailand, and nobody would claim that they are "rich".

THB6,500 per Thai is being wasted, which is nearly a month's wages for most - nothing to get excited about.

Every country has problems and graft. If it is 1 to 3 percent of the GDP no one is going to complain. Beyond that people complain incuding Moodys which they are doing now. Is the Moodys threat a wake up call for the government? Yes I think so.

This is the loss from one policy, and it has little to do with GDP except that you prefer it to make the percentages smaller.

Now that they have woken up, what do you expect to happen? Will the PM admit she has wasted huge amounts (and she has no idea how much) on a failed policy? should that admission of failure and incompetence not lead to a resignation?

Will they cancel the policy forthwith, and lose all those votes? Or continue to throw good money after lost?

Do I think the average Thai knows about it? Yes. Do I think the average Thai cares? No (they didn't get charged for it in an obvious way). Do I think it will topple the government? No. 40% of the population want Thaksin back and until he is brought back and defeated in an election there will be problems.

PS: Percent of GDP is the way things are measured by governments. People use percent of personal income. For example I spend 20% on housing and 10% on food.

Keep trying the strawman argument (do you know what that means?) It doesn't matter who pays the tax, or how much they pay, tax revenue belongs to the people of Thailand, and nobody would claim that they are "rich".

THB6,500 per Thai is being wasted, which is nearly a month's wages for most - nothing to get excited about.

Every country has problems and graft. If it is 1 to 3 percent of the GDP no one is going to complain. Beyond that people complain incuding Moodys which they are doing now. Is the Moodys threat a wake up call for the government? Yes I think so.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra took power in 2011 on a promise to pay farmers well above what was then the market rate for their rice, and the intervention has gone on even though it has priced Thai rice out of the international market.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

Maybe you know more than I but I don't think the farmers pay much income tax in Thailand. I think the majority of tax is paid by industry and commerce and not farming.

Strawman argument. EVERY Thai pays sales tax, and the amount any group pays is irrelevant. The tax collected belongs to ALL Thais.

Tell us about Thailand's sales tax?

Do your own bloody homework.

I just went to the market and bought all my food and supplies for the week and I didn't pay any sales tax! Oh my gosh!

Once again this deliberate mis-speak is trotted out by the newspapers as a "fact" which originated with the current government.

The FARMERS are NOT getting the high prices.

It is the MIDDLEMEN who are being paid high prices for the rice they are buying at lower prices, often on phoney excuses (sorry but your rice is not the highest quality Mr. rice farmer, we can't pay you the official price for that rice), which the MIDDLEMEN then resell to the government as prime quality high-grade rice at the official rice.

And why is this being done .... or more importantly allowed ..... by the government?

Because the people buying the rice and re-selling it to the government are supporters of the government, and the government is buying their support with tax revenue buying the middleman's rice at inflated prices.

Tax fraud is illegal, a illegality is a sin ....... therefore could you not call an illegality done with tax revenues a

Tax Sin.

I think the farmers are gettng the money, perhaps a bit late but getting it. The only place I have read that they are not getting the money is on Thai Visa. Do you have any links to news stories that the farmers are not getting the money.

do you have any figures to prove they are getting it, touche ,,,,,,, end of chat i believe,,

We have sent our letter to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra that we don’t agree to cut the intervention price,” said Vichien Phuanglamjiak, vice-president of the Thai Rice Farmers Association, which represents 700 to 800 farmers. “And if we don’t get an appropriate response, we will stage a protest and it would be a big one.”

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

If the farmers are not getting the money why would they protest?

BS! Tax is paid by ALL the people of Thailand and belongs to ALL the people of Thailand. Wasting taxpayers money is a crime.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra took power in 2011 on a promise to pay farmers well above what was then the market rate for their rice, and the intervention has gone on even though it has priced Thai rice out of the international market.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

Maybe you know more than I but I don't think the farmers pay much income tax in Thailand. I think the majority of tax is paid by industry and commerce and not farming.

Strawman argument. EVERY Thai pays sales tax, and the amount any group pays is irrelevant. The tax collected belongs to ALL Thais.

Tell us about Thailand's sales tax?

Any PM that admits that she/he has no idea of the hugely expensive costs of a policy in force for 2 years should resign on the spot. If ~10% of government expenditure is going to a policy why is there not monthly (if not weekly) accounting of income, expenditure and efficacy?

BANGKOK, Dec 19 – Thailand’s financial loss from its two-year rice pledging scheme should reach Bt247 billion (US$8.2 billion), or 1 to 1.3 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP), a World Bank economist said today.

http://www.mcot.net/site/content?id=50d19f5b150ba0bb3f000068#.UbF1t8X7srE

Oh please! the myth of Robin Hood was that he stole from the rich to give to the poor. The rice scam is stealing from the people of Thailand, the overwhelming majority of whom are far from wealthy, and most of that stolen is ending up in the pockets of those far from poor.

BTW for a little historical accuracy, RH's actions were a protest against "evil" Prince John's taxes, levied to pay for "good" King Richard's (the Lionheart) crusades and his ransom when he was captured by an ally he had offended. Richard is regarded as one of the worst Kings that England ever suffered.

Yingluck is taking money from industrial/commercial taxpayers and giving it to rice farmers.

Agreed.

BS! Tax is paid by ALL the people of Thailand and belongs to ALL the people of Thailand. Wasting taxpayers money is a crime.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra took power in 2011 on a promise to pay farmers well above what was then the market rate for their rice, and the intervention has gone on even though it has priced Thai rice out of the international market.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

Maybe you know more than I but I don't think the farmers pay much income tax in Thailand. I think the majority of tax is paid by industry and commerce and not farming.

Once again this deliberate mis-speak is trotted out by the newspapers as a "fact" which originated with the current government.

The FARMERS are NOT getting the high prices.

It is the MIDDLEMEN who are being paid high prices for the rice they are buying at lower prices, often on phoney excuses (sorry but your rice is not the highest quality Mr. rice farmer, we can't pay you the official price for that rice), which the MIDDLEMEN then resell to the government as prime quality high-grade rice at the official rice.

And why is this being done .... or more importantly allowed ..... by the government?

Because the people buying the rice and re-selling it to the government are supporters of the government, and the government is buying their support with tax revenue buying the middleman's rice at inflated prices.

Tax fraud is illegal, a illegality is a sin ....... therefore could you not call an illegality done with tax revenues a

Tax Sin.

I think the farmers are gettng the money, perhaps a bit late but getting it. The only place I have read that they are not getting the money is on Thai Visa. Do you have any links to news stories that the farmers are not getting the money.

OMG! CMK

Its called GOOGLE. Or a simple search here on TV will get you the same INFO.

But to spare all the other members from your annoying calls for links. Here you go.

According to the TDRI, 63% of funds spent on the pledging programme went

to merchants and millers, with the rest going to farmers. Only 5% of

funds spent went to poor farmers, most of them in the Northeast. http://www.flar.org/index.php/en/news/3299-thailand-tdri-head-calls-for-rice-plan-review

Another good article for your pleasure, as you think this Govt is golden, and this scam is so great for everybody.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Analysis_-_Disastrous_intervention_puts_Thai_rice_exporters_in_peril.html?cid=33271378

Can't comment on the first article because it's source is the Bangkok Post. The second author led me to Irrwaddy where I read an article titled, "Thai Rice Farmers Threaten Protest if Intervention Price Cut."

Why would the Thai farmers threaten protest if they are not getting the money?

From the article, "We have sent our letter to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra that we don’t agree to cut the intervention price,” said Vichien Phuanglamjiak, vice-president of the Thai Rice Farmers Association, which represents 700 to 800 farmers. The remarks came in response to comments last week by permanent commerce secretary Vatchari Vimooktayon, that the government was considering cutting the price it pays farmers to 13,000 baht from 15,000 baht (US $500) per tonne.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/28385

Oh please! the myth of Robin Hood was that he stole from the rich to give to the poor. The rice scam is stealing from the people of Thailand, the overwhelming majority of whom are far from wealthy, and most of that stolen is ending up in the pockets of those far from poor.

BTW for a little historical accuracy, RH's actions were a protest against "evil" Prince John's taxes, levied to pay for "good" King Richard's (the Lionheart) crusades and his ransom when he was captured by an ally he had offended. Richard is regarded as one of the worst Kings that England ever suffered.

Yingluck is taking money from industrial/commercial taxpayers and giving it to rice farmers.

So how much rice is in storage and how much is it costing?

That is the key to it, CMK. Only the officials and Government departments in charge know the answer, so why don't you tell us why they refuse to disclose the true figures. Perhaps it's because they are so horrendous that nobody dares to tell the truth?

Why would the government be the only ones who know? Take an average year rice production and subtract the amount sold so far and multiply what is left by the storage charges. This is not rocket science. I don't trade rice but any rice trader will know what the storage cost is and the amount in storage in Thailand. You make it sound like a conspiracy and it's not. PaddyJenkins stated it well when he said it was income redistribution. If the farmers get the money it's a Robin Hood idea and if the rich brokers get it, it is not a robin Hood idea. In any event it is a wake up call. Moodys is telling Thailand to get it's stuff together.

I think the government are they only party that doesn't seem to know the situation. Early this week Yingluck and Nathawut where ordering the applicable departments to collect the correct figures and present them to the public (and Moody). After 2 years!!!!!

Come on CMK, it is very clear that the only ones who are making a conspiracy out of this are PT themselves.

The price of rice is going down. It is not going down fast. In 3 weeks 8 dollars a ton down for broken white and sticky rice up 12 dollars a ton . No conspiracy.

Once again this deliberate mis-speak is trotted out by the newspapers as a "fact" which originated with the current government.

The FARMERS are NOT getting the high prices.

It is the MIDDLEMEN who are being paid high prices for the rice they are buying at lower prices, often on phoney excuses (sorry but your rice is not the highest quality Mr. rice farmer, we can't pay you the official price for that rice), which the MIDDLEMEN then resell to the government as prime quality high-grade rice at the official rice.

And why is this being done .... or more importantly allowed ..... by the government?

Because the people buying the rice and re-selling it to the government are supporters of the government, and the government is buying their support with tax revenue buying the middleman's rice at inflated prices.

Tax fraud is illegal, a illegality is a sin ....... therefore could you not call an illegality done with tax revenues a

Tax Sin.

I think the farmers are gettng the money, perhaps a bit late but getting it. The only place I have read that they are not getting the money is on Thai Visa. Do you have any links to news stories that the farmers are not getting the money.

Unless we could give you an exact figure, you wouldn't accept it anyway. Then we would have to go through a detailed analysis of how much is hidden under the mattress, how much has been deposited in banks, how many loan sharks have been repaid, how many cheques are in the mail and what value of rice is in transit.

A simple link to one article pointing out that the farmers are not getting the money and that the middlemen are would be sufficient.