Vang2x

Hi,

I would like to unsubscribe here the soonest as possible but before that I want that ALL my posts be deleted. My question now is how should I do that when seems I don't see anything here how to.. waaahhhhhh!

thanks and hope for a quick action reply. PM would be much appreciated.

^{_{My Congratulations to the new dad and mom!!!!!}}

There's also a black dog and the black dog- the first one is a particular one that has not yet been identified, and the second one is that one already identified referred to again (thus the indefinite and definite article).

That's very helpful. I figured you stress on the singular subject as writing a story or article about a certain black dog. For instance,one can start with A black dog (in the first paragraph), then use THE black dog as the story goes on.

How about THE black dogs and ALL Black dogs? As I understood, THE is an article along with "AN" and "A".

" "The" is definite while "A" and "AN" are indefinite. Definite means being SPECIFIC. It has nothing to do with generalization. Unless one uses ALL then it is generalization. Am I right? My apologies ahead, this maybe an ignorance but for sure I'd stay being one if I don't ask Q and pretend I know and I understand. Thank you.

Thanks MOD for for the words, kinda surprising some s*ckos exist here.

Good day to all.

Apart from the nationality, I don't see any other difference. People are the same, they can be different as well. If we have to mention the different factors to consider perhaps a day is not enough to come up with a sound counclusion.

Good luck, I hope u can find answers soon.

I agree, Asia's Subregions are the Northern, Central, Western, Southern, Eastern and the Southeastern.

The proper Forum name is either East Asia or Eastern Asia.

You may want to include (Siberia, Russia) as it's considered either East or North. You can validate the info through wiki.

regards,

Hey, hey, mama, said the way you move

Gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove.

Oh, oh, child, way you shake that thing

Gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting.

Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way

Watch your honey drip, cant keep away.

I gotta roll, cant stand still,

Got a flame in my heart, cant get my fill,

Eyes that shine burning red,

Dreams of you all thru my head.

Didn't take too long fore I found out

What people mean my down and out.

Spent my money, took my car,

Started tellin' her friends she wants to be a star.

I don't know but I been told

A big legged woman ain't got no soul.

All I ask for when I pray,

Steady rollin' woman gonna come my way.

Need a woman gonna hold my hand

And tell me no lies, make me a happy man.

lololol! I'm curious, where's the DOG?????

Never heard of Led Zeppelin ???

not in Thailand, not in ASIA and apparently never in MY GENERATION!!!

Oh in case you don't know, some hospitals here have WEIGHT CONTROL Section btw. I learnt it through my Thai friend. That's why it's easy to lose weight here. You can visit Yanhee Int'l Hospital, the WC section used to be on the second floor but moved it to the new building on the right exit of the hospital. The doctors are friendly and you'd be advised what to do and eat in a healthy way aside from the medicine. It costs less than 800Baht for a month supply and you'd be asked to report back after that. I was told there was no side effects and my BP, height and weight were checked before meeting the doctor.

I lost 5kilos in thirty days.

Hey, hey, mama, said the way you move

Gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove.

Oh, oh, child, way you shake that thing

Gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting.

Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way

Watch your honey drip, cant keep away.

I gotta roll, cant stand still,

Got a flame in my heart, cant get my fill,

Eyes that shine burning red,

Dreams of you all thru my head.

Didn't take too long fore I found out

What people mean my down and out.

Spent my money, took my car,

Started tellin' her friends she wants to be a star.

I don't know but I been told

A big legged woman ain't got no soul.

All I ask for when I pray,

Steady rollin' woman gonna come my way.

Need a woman gonna hold my hand

And tell me no lies, make me a happy man.

lololol! I'm curious, where's the DOG?????

I'm starting to doubt my ENG skill and getting confused on the differences among the four I mentioned. Thanks ahead.

Alcohol ban on religious holidays

By Suchat Sritama

Kwanchai Rungfapaisarn

The Nation

Published on July 1, 2009

The government was dealing another severe blow to the already-battered tourism and entertainment industry by suddenly banning booze during Buddhist holidays next week, business leaders complained yesterday.

"This is the same old issue - the government rising up to destroy tourism. This does not parallel its tourism policy of increasing the number of visitors coming into the country," said Thai Hotels Association (THA) president Prakit Chinamourphong.

Enforcement of the decree would hurt tourism venues, especially clubs and restaurants located in hotels, as well as general tourist attractions.

"How can tourists can enjoy their holiday in Thailand without drinking? Like Phuket or Pattaya, they're coming for beaches and fun. They like to have beers and some drinks on the beach. If we ask them not to do so, they won't be happy," Prakit said.

The government should have communicated the order well in advance to foreign tourists, so they could plan their activities and celebrations better while staying in the country.

"I think it's good for locals to stop drinking during that time, but tourists will be upset," Prakit said.

Rest of article here:

The Nation

How do you think this should be handled for tourists? Should it be banned for tourists as well? Should they be able to drink in their hotels and guesthouses?

Is one law for locals and another law for guests feasible?

I know on Koh Phangan, that many places have ignored this requirement and I wonder if it will now be more strictly enforced?

I'm not sure what's the statistics in Thailad whether the crime increases in result to alcohol drinking but I do know there are more accidents on holidays. These accidents are generally on the road. When it's holiday, some people drink alcohol and many of them drive perhaps from their hometown. Fatalities happen along the way. Maybe the banning is to prevent accidents. That is aside from the fact if I heard it right, drinking is actually not recommended in Buddhist teaching.

Thank you! Love the share, it's very helpful!

Just sharing this. As far as observations are concerned in some threads in here, there's a little bit of similarities. Some differences in the time frame though.

very short lived marriage

by izzix on June 21, 2009, 9:55 pm

from stickman this week

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... ishBar.htm

Another only in Thailand story this week, the events of which happened to a Danish victim. He met a girl in a beer bar, fell in love with her and married her. They had a big party and there was the usual transfer of wealth - ring, gold and cash from him to her and her family. They took their honeymoon in Phuket. She received a phone call in the hotel room and spoke in Thai. It was obvious to him that something was up. He went into the shower and when he came out she was gone. He searched for her and couldn't find her. He has not seen her since! Unfortunately for some of these women, marriage means a big party with a farang guy with lots of money coming their way. Soon after the party they revert back to their own ways and feel that they can do whatever they want!

Only 2 ways it can go for the OP

1) Not banned

2) Banned member

A purple spot (500 baht) on number 2..

sorry to be lazy but copied and paste this from another thread yesterday and i was right on the button then too

Number 2 is my guess

where do i collect my winnings?

Could you please elaborate what you mean? Aside from the ENG, I can't compehend the thought. Are you even speaking about the topic?

Thank you.

By the way, I would like to reiterate that the purpose of this topic is to seek clarification and never to demean or humiliate any group of people. If you can read the subject, it is a question and there's a subheading topic as well in support to the main subject. (Which reminds me, I should have wriiten "How about other Asian Women" u know taking out the "the") .

I can understand the reactions to the article I copy pasted which as far as I can remember sanookme shared in the other thread. Thanks by the way. The article made me wonder which lead me to have this post. And I would appreciate if we can view the subject in the level of at least taking the emotional content out of the topic as much as possible just in case.

No offense meant in whatever aspect, just a plain conceptual discussion, nothing else. We are aware as well that the people in Thaivisa are rational enough to stick to the point of the matter, it's fairly not making any sense to assume their comments as being judgemental, having this sense of prejudice and insensible generalizations.

Thank you very much.

ERRATUM

It wasn't "Sanookme" who gave me the link but "Tilokarat". My Apologies.

One day while he was at the track playing the ponies and all but losing his shirt, Mitch noticed a priest who stepped out onto the track and blessed the forehead of one of the horses lining up for the 4th race.

Lo and behold, that horse - a very long shot - won the race.

Before the next race, as the horses began lining up, Mitch watched with interest the old priest step onto the track. Sure enough, as the 5th race horses came to the starting gate the priest made a blessing on the forehead of one of the horses.

Mitch made a beeline for a betting window and placed a small bet on the horse. Again, even though it was another long shot, the horse the priest had blessed won the race.

Mitch collected his winnings, and anxiously waited to see which horse the priest would bless for the 6th race.

The priest again blessed a horse.

Mitch bet big on it, and it won.

Mitch was elated. As the races continued the priest kept blessing long shot horses, and each one ended up coming in first.

By and by, Mitch was pulling in some serious money. By the last race, he knew his wildest dreams were going to come true. He made a quick dash to the ATM, withdrew all his savings, and awaited the priest's blessing that would tell him which horse to bet on.

True to his pattern, the priest stepped onto the track for the last race and blessed the forehead of an old nag that was the longest shot of the day. Mitch also observed the priest blessing the eyes, ears, and hooves of the old nag.

Mitch knew he had a winner and bet every cent he owned on the old nag. He then watched dumbfounded as the old nag come in dead last. Mitch, in a state of shock, made his way down to the track area where the priest was.

Confronting the old priest he demanded, 'Father! What happened? All day long you blessed horses and they all won. Then in the last race, the horse you blessed lost by a Kentucky mile. Now, thanks to you I've lost every cent of my savings - all of it!'.

The priest nodded wisely and with sympathy. 'Son,' he said, 'that's the problem with you Protestants, you can't tell the difference between a simple blessing and last rites.'

hahaha!

lololol! we call it self control. lolol!

By the way, I would like to reiterate that the purpose of this topic is to seek clarification and never to demean or humiliate any group of people. If you can read the subject, it is a question and there's a subheading topic as well in support to the main subject. (Which reminds me, I should have wriiten "How about other Asian Women" u know taking out the "the") .

I can understand the reactions to the article I copy pasted which as far as I can remember sanookme shared in the other thread. Thanks by the way. The article made me wonder which lead me to have this post. And I would appreciate if we can view the subject in the level of at least taking the emotional content out of the topic as much as possible just in case.

No offense meant in whatever aspect, just a plain conceptual discussion, nothing else. We are aware as well that the people in Thaivisa are rational enough to stick to the point of the matter, it's fairly not making any sense to assume their comments as being judgemental, having this sense of prejudice and insensible generalizations.

Thank you very much.

This isn't a troll, its a genuine question.

I've seen this on soap operas, and also a couple of the extended family are number 2s. I know it is prevalent all around the world but here it is far more prevalent and part of the culture.

In on of the general topic threads, a guy has got his second g/f pregnant...

As I said, two of the extended family are mistresses, to thais actually. Many thais have mistresses it seems, well, the rich ones, lol.

It's not just a affair either, some of these relationships last years, one I know of 6 years.The guy pays for her upkeep, she doesn't go out or anything, just sits at home waiting for her thai "bf" to come round.

The girls invariably are in total love with the guy, but he will never leave the wife and kids, yet she waits in vain, and if she makes to much of a fuss, she gets dumped for another girl.

What are your views, as I want to get a perspective from the ladies point of view.

Ernest

and personally, one lady is more than enough !

It's a timing my lady Thai friend spoke about the subject days ago. This practice was used to be a taboo but it's a fact these days and is widely accepted and practiced. If I were to use the words exactly, the term was "IT'S OKAY". I validated the info with other Thai friends and they have supported it. Have asked some foreign women who married the locals (just four I personally know) But I have to clarify that the activity is never beyond the wife's knowledge. The respective wives know about the other relationship and not just other one actually and they(husband and wife) still both live under the same roof. No plan of getting a divorce either.

To add, I had some few activities with some Adult students and many expressed that being a "playgirl" or "playboy" is something to be proud of and being not is a weakness. It signifies being "unattractive" or in some words..a "loser".

FInally, I just spoke with what I gathered first hand, it would be unfair to make any generalizations.

Good day!

I think one of the things you need to get your head around is the British Embassy won't be too interested in whether this is your friend's favourite aunt etc. I am no expert in these matters but your friend will probably need demonstrate in some way that she has had regular contact with your aunt, copies of emails, letters,recent photos together and add them to a dossier with letters confirming employment in Thailand and job on return and everything else. The evidence you provide will either do the persuading for her or not. Good luck

Thanks to you both 7by7 and gerryBscott, for sure my friend can handle now the matters better herself. The info shared are very helpful indeed.

Have a nice day!

Just sharing this. As far as observations are concerned in some threads in here, there's a little bit of similarities. Some differences in the time frame though.

very short lived marriage

by izzix on June 21, 2009, 9:55 pm

from stickman this week

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... ishBar.htm

Another only in Thailand story this week, the events of which happened to a Danish victim. He met a girl in a beer bar, fell in love with her and married her. They had a big party and there was the usual transfer of wealth - ring, gold and cash from him to her and her family. They took their honeymoon in Phuket. She received a phone call in the hotel room and spoke in Thai. It was obvious to him that something was up. He went into the shower and when he came out she was gone. He searched for her and couldn't find her. He has not seen her since! Unfortunately for some of these women, marriage means a big party with a farang guy with lots of money coming their way. Soon after the party they revert back to their own ways and feel that they can do whatever they want!

For a rather heated discussion about farangs taking on married women go to Udonmap.com, thread: very shortlived marriage, and you will see that the debate starts to rage on page five.

Thank you. I've got this instead and do appreciate the info ; however, this thread should be the response to those issues which farangs are the victims. This should be the chance for some Asians or Thai's who have hmm... not so good experience with the Farangs. This is not to degrade them, the purpose is just to let us see both sides of the situation. The output is dependent as well on the number of Asians or Thai women being in tv. Otherwise, there's a probability that there's no victim in this aspect where the Farangs are the ones who do take advantage. This forum you shared talks about the Farang (and even a Thai man) being soooooooo victims here. I wonder what's the statistics of this. Are Thai women that evil? This makes me not to think twice posting another subject!

very short lived marriage

by izzix on June 21, 2009, 9:55 pm

from stickman this week

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... ishBar.htm

Another only in Thailand story this week, the events of which happened to a Danish victim. He met a girl in a beer bar, fell in love with her and married her. They had a big party and there was the usual transfer of wealth - ring, gold and cash from him to her and her family. They took their honeymoon in Phuket. She received a phone call in the hotel room and spoke in Thai. It was obvious to him that something was up. He went into the shower and when he came out she was gone. He searched for her and couldn't find her. He has not seen her since! Unfortunately for some of these women, marriage means a big party with a farang guy with lots of money coming their way. Soon after the party they revert back to their own ways and feel that they can do whatever they want!

For a rather heated discussion about farangs taking on married women go to Udonmap.com, thread: very shortlived marriage, and you will see that the debate starts to rage on page five.

Thank you. I've got this instead and do aprreciate the info ; however, this thread in tv should be the response to those issues which farangs are the victims. This should be the chance for some Asians or Thai's who have hmm... not so good experience with the Farangs. This is not to degrade them, the purpose is just to let us see both sides of the situation. The output is dependent as well on the number of Asians or Thai women being in tv. Otherwise, there's a probability that there's no victim in this aspect where the Farangs are the ones who do take advantage. This forum you shared talks about the Farang (and even a Thai man) being soooooooo victims here. I wonder what's the statistics of this. Are Thai women that evil? This makes me not to think twice posting another subject!

<H3 class=first>

very short lived marriage</H3>by izzix on June 21, 2009, 9:55 pm

from stickman this week

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... ishBar.htm

Any proof to the story? Sounds like typical Thai gossip to me.

I too find elements of this story very hard to believe. Just for starters, how long does it take somebody to die from HIV/Aids? Two years? Five years? Sometimes longer? In fact, increasing numbers of HIV positive people are living for many years (although obviously under the right medication).

So we are expected to believe that an HIV positive woman managed to infect one male partner, wait several years for him to die, then another, ditto, then a third, ditto again. And now she is onto her fourth.

When did she start this racket? Twenty years ago? And why has she survived, while her male partners all died?

Sorry. This sounds like BS.

I have read true stories about this happening but this one is classic BS

I re read the Op and the second paragraph!

"she has already seen off 3 lovers and pocketed the cash"

Total BS.

So she has HIV is a rough peice as described by the OP and has managed to get 3 other men to die and give her their cash!

Who were the other men

Death announcements if they were farang which country did they die in?

Names to check?

Proof required for this otherwise i think the mods should close this thread as another Thai bashing, total BS thread....

He never said that they had died, he said that she had seen them off. Which to me means she got what she wanted from them and then f*cked them off, with a little HIV parting gift.

IF this story is true, which I tend believe it is, then not only should this bloke be told but also the authorities, this woman and her family deserve to be sitting on death row.

From experience with my ex-wife and her family I can understand the girl's thinking. I am going to die anyway so why not get as much from as many as I can before I am gone. The family are thinking similar, she is going to die so why not set the family up on the way out?

Cold and callous, but all too common when you are trapped in an existance standard of living.

---------------------

Just as I thought. This is really the consequence of expressing concern for others, no wonder why a lot out there just prefer to be in silence. In farness to Daihard, his wife is Thai, if some of you here had read his post. Therefore, I don't see any THAI BASHING happening here. The point is the HIV infection and the Wealth "stealing" which both that Swede is unaware of.

Some asked for evidences as they take this as just a typical Thai gossip. I don't think the author of this post would waste his time for that. He asked point blank what should be done perhaps as being falang and his wife as Thai. In some way, that lead them being connected to the issue and being on the right minds and morals being aware on that the Teerak's plan which is beyond worse than a psycho killer has. If one is raised at least in a good family, for sure they'd have the same thinking which made me admire the couple.

I think everbody has his own CHOICE. But never can one have his choices until he is aware of what he's truly dealing with. That Swede deserves the right to know and those who know I think has the responsiblity to at least inform him in some way to be warned. Just as plain as that. NO instructions as to how he should deal his life and what to choose and do, that Swede is not a kid, he can definitely takes decisions by himself, he just needs to be aware of what's he's into. If he just needs someone to take care for him regarless of the disease and he's willing to give away his finances then no one can stop him. Again, it's his life and definitely his CHOICE but then at least HE HAS TO KNOW.

On the other hand, taking that gossip thing thought, NO NAME was mentioned and should never have one. That makes this thread safe or else this topic could just be closed in case of misinformation.

First of all: This topic is not to bash at the Western man, at all.

Ok, what I wonder:

In the last month I was in Asia I spent a couple of days with Philipinos and an Indonesian guy.

They were both considerate and treated me like their sister. They never asked me something sexual or even flirt with me.

I also met men from mostly Europe, from 23-70, and they were the opposite. They asked me quite personal stuff, trying to find out if I was lonely and needed a man. Making sexually oriented comments/jokes which made me feel nervous and tired. They liked to talk about -sex-.

Of course I shouldn't generalize, men are men, no matter where they are from. But I noticed the difference and I'd like to hear some sounds from different perspectives (especially from women)

My relationships were with great Western men, and my best male friends are from the West, so no frustrations on that part at all.

Hmmm...... a lot could be the probable reasons such as:

1. They can't think of any better subjects for basic conversations.

2. Western countries are open to the topic while Asians aren't really vocal about it.

3. That's what they're here for.

4. They are sexually deprived or dissatisfied.

5. They can't afford to get a BG at least for 1k plus the HIV infection possiblity.

6. Perhaps getting laid for free is a wise option.

7. It's their insecurity. COuld be talking about it means bragging about their skills.

8. They think it's the way of luring a girl similar with that's what charms them to anyone wearing skirts and not just women, I mean.

9. They are incapable of the action so they just settle for the "talk" and satisified with it.

10. They think the person they are talking with have the same mind.

11. They think that makes them attractive.

12. Desperate

13. Trying Hard

14. Idio*

15. Mo**on

16. Bored

17. Effect of watching too much porn or engaging in er*tic chats.

18. Just being cool.

19. Just having fun with you and not really taking the subject seriously.

20. Just being friendly and taking things light. After all life is a humor, without it, we would all die earlier.

This article is from an organization that promotes Philippines properties, but it does cite national statistics. Makes one wonder how many travelers changed their plans based on Thailand's political challenges.

http://www.propertyarticles.com/overseas/20090429377.html

I did during my last trip to Asia, 18May-3Jun canceled Thailand to go to the Philipphines and won't make that mistake again. More expensieve except for the beer and sure isn't as safe or clean. I liked the people but overpriced hotels and bad food kills the fun.

I agree. the Phils have a plethora of lovely unspoilt nature places waiting to be explored, but the food s*cks big time (unless u r fond of American junkfood-chains) and crime galore. the only 7/11-shop in the Phils I saw that did NOT have an armed guard was in Dumaguete, which is promoted as the "safest place in the Phils" (at least if you want to believe the big billboard at the local airport there).

but even there I know someone (a long-time Expat) who had to leave the town cause he feared for his safety after he helped the police to arrest the best hitman of the local Mafia after a robbing-attempt.

Manila itself is near to an apocalypse, but thanks god, thousands of lovely islands are just an hour by plane away.....

I have heard a couple of Tourists who have been satisfied with the Philippines. The point is they like that country and there's no point of getting here in tv( the name itself THAIvisa) to speak about that though there were some who have the experiences staying and visiting the country in some other threads. That country is cheap but it has no place for backpackers or those travelling with a limited budget. However, it is assured that you can get what you pay for. I have traveled in some parts of the Phil from Manila to Davao. Stayed in good hotels and had wonderful experiences and definitely mouth watering food. Love also the variety of cuisine avalable everywhere. I should add visiting family homes during festivals and birthdays!

You can google Filipino food or recipes, youtube is fine too to have at least the idea how the other food look like. No, not the taste.

Filipinos aren't generally fond of STREET FOOD, it is considered "dirty". I can understand, think of the dust and gases released fom Jeepneys, cars etc, I doubt if one would really have the appetite of eating those kinds of food. That amazed me in Thailand btw, food aren't covered and generally they use their hands (thanks to swine flu at least there's an improvement) but people here eat them, park their cars, eat or buy some then go back and leave.

To add, Thai food is available anywhere, most people here are working and people don't have the time to cook aside from the "cooking not allowed" in some apartments, mostly common in cheaper apartments. Filipinos generally cook at home and food takes hours to cook! Maybe that's the reason of them not really being available anywhere!

I don't eat street foods in both countries, it's too risky to save for health. I'm frugal but no, not in terms of health. I doubt Fasfood's quality either! I'm sure one can eat in decent restaurants if one has the info in the Philippines.

Tourism in the Philippines speak also of Filipinos traveling from one islands to another. The country is an archipelago which makes it not really accessible to other islands and that makes it really expensive! The island hopping is worth it definitely but as I said, if one has the budget. (I should mention the great fresh Tunas in General Santos City are incomparable!)Think about the airticket unless one takes Cebu Pacific then maybe one can save talking about transportation cost at least. Some fast ferries are available in the Visayas area..

I rarely heard the country of covering up facts. Media is so powerful there that sometimes makes me think of them just being "too much". Furthermore, perhaps of religion ,at least despite the obvious poverty, I can trust them better I should say especially honesty is concerned. And talking about poverty, it's a little ironic that many of the FILs eat in the fast food chains and there are more people in the shopping malls! I think more enjoy the luxurios life despite being a less progressive country.

Finally, the Philippines reported about the progress in the Tourism aspect but as far as I know, it's not the county's source of income. The country earns billions due to it's people working abroad.

Thailand's main business is Tourism. That is why it is absolutely smoother to get around Thailand and landscapes are really lovely( I just love them!). Of course, that's a commonsense of pleasing the market. Aside from it's demography, it's cheaper to go from one place to another and a lot safer to take the bus! Everything is available anywhere and due to that competition, prices are really very competitive. Again, if one researches ahead his trip, one can save a lot more without really sacrificing quality. I think, I don't need to mention the employment opportunity here inThailand.

Thailand is the Tourist capital in South East Asia, (I hope I won't need to use "used to" soon). The country also offers a variety of options to anyone here and definitely has more farang residents. Despite the possible profits, the Phils I think welcomes short time visitors more and so other ASEAN countries. If you want a smooth travel and have the budget, I suggest you take the package tours. It's best to go that way to the PHil as far as safety is concerned as well.If you can't, I should say it's not worth it and you end up wining about your expenses.

Actually I said I know a group of falangs that do this. I did not say I was part of this crowd. Pretty low sleeping with another mans woman. But as usual you want to call me a liar. Tell you what, I never lie, I really don't. If you see me saying I can fly fine but my life believe it or not actually is so cool I don't have to make things up. If I told you what I do here, what I have done, what I'm going to do. You would never in a million years believe me. But it would be the truth. You need to accept, deep down in your heart, that not everyone in Thailand is a loser like you think. Whether its because you are or you aren't.

Really, how interesting

Just leave me alone and go away, innit!

TheLaughingMan,

Naahhh, so then you're just the group's consultant. Don't worry, I believe you except that post above. Hmm haven't thought of that "L" thing, that needs further debate.