haihoa

Unless it was included in the hotel package, how 'bout the cost of the Lao Visa. You do stay in Lao (DPR), no?

Maybe Laos will send us a convoy of emergency supplies of Beer Lao

You know, I was just going to suggest that. Pakse's new brewery is right across the border. Unfortunately, the Thai beer cartel (i.e., Chang) has restricted severely it's import for a few years now. It's a shame, as it is so popular (and downright good) among foreigners. It is available in limited amounts at Western pubs and bars. But the brewery could and would gear up and send massive amounts of the stuff (I'm reluctant to use the flood) here by boat, if need be. It isn't that popular among Thais, however, because of the stigma attached to the name Lao...also unfortunate. I had many Thai converts when I briefly sold it at my restaurant a few years back. The gouging and shortages won't last long...sort of like eggs a week ago. Cheers.

Your comment was all good and right in my eyes, until that BS about "spreading the water evenly" came up.

There is no way in heaven or hell that would work, because Bangkok is not flat!

This ain't Kansas, either, Dorothy. What do you think all the canals (Klongs) were designed to do, Doc? Since the Klong 9 sluice gate was welded open, there has been this mystifying phenomenon of water traveling "uphill" toward "heaven and hell," depending on your vantage point. Most of the dykes that were hastily constructed targeted poor communities along the river...not by design initially, perhaps...to try to immediately contain water destined to flow into "central Bangkok" (wherever the hell that is). Had the decision been made to allow water to travel to Klongs that could not contain, obviously, abnormal flood levels, we would have seen MORE EVENLY DISTRIBUTED flooding occur. Hindsight is easy; "high-sight" is unforgivable. Bangkok is one of the flattest cities in the world, as are most cities located in or near river deltas and marshlands. No BS, Doc. Look around you the next time you're out and about Bangkok...maybe in three to four weeks.

Yes it is going to take a lot of hard work and posative attitude to clear up all the mess, I just hope for the people's sake there is no western attitude to add to the disaster.

A "Western attitude?" Let's try to define that. Hmm. Would that be a rational attitude, or a sensible attitude unfettered by polite denial and the silly niceties that obfuscate and procrastinate rather than address actionable approaches to the given crisis? Would that be an attitude that is at once concerned about placing blame AND saving face? Would that be an attitude that accepts offers of assistance without hesitation over political fears and expediency? Would that be an attitude that sacrifices poor communities over rich ones while knowing full well that in order to mitigate flooding of this magnitude, ALL communities, rich and poor, would eventually get hammered? Would not 10 to 20 cms. of water spread evenly throughout all of central Bangkok have been been a little more equitable (if not inconvenient, untidy or otherwise annoying to tourists and commerce) over decisions that allowed as much as 3 meters of flood waters in one place while completely dry in another? Or is that too alien and Western an attitude? I'm all for the hard work and "posative" (sic) attitude, I'm just not convinced, Danlo, that your bigoted remark and expressed attitude isn't already adding to the disaster. "For the people's sake," a whole spectrum of attitudes are essential to, as you put it, "clear up the mess."

gr8fldanielle.

maybe the focus should be at removing the red shirt leaders. take away the leadership that is fueling this fire. I guess they are not going to turn themselves in like they said. I certainly hope the charges that are racking up are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, including denying bail for fear of being a flight risk. enough is enough. Condolences to the families of those that needlessly have taken part of this cowardly fueled farce.

Indeed a post that is right on target.

Hard and callous and inhumane as it may be the authorities should target the stage where the (mis ) leaders of the Red Shirt Brigade appear surrounded by a mass of human shields.

A good team of snipers would take the (mis) leaders out in one hit as has already been done with the mad Major General.

Messy and indeed frightening for the spectators but indeed a salutatory lesson as to what happens for inciting violence and revolution.

Dramatic violent ?

Indeed, yes.

But how much more senseless loss of lives on all sides would be averted by such an action ?

At the end of the day there has to be some movement to force hands and get people round the table, no moving the goalposts as has been done by the current Red Shirt Brigade (mis) leadership.

Exorcise the cancer cells that are leading this protest which has been hi-jacked to further a very different cause from the original one and the main body will grow.

The current situation visibly demonstrates that the medicine is killing the patient.

This is now the time to demonstrate that firm decisive actions speak louder than words.

It's time the rank and file asked their (mis) leaders of the Red Shirt Brigade to place themselves on the front line along with the gullible innocents they keep exhorting them to make the ''ultimate sacrifice'' for the cause whilst safe in five star hotels and steel containers or Montenegro as is currently the case with the (mis ) leaders of the Red Shirt Brigade.

Spot on siampolee!

These hypocritical, crazy, cowardly, so-called "leaders" -in reality, rabble rousers highly paid by Thaky and given promises of great future power when Thaky gets what he wants - should have been properly dealt with ages ago.

Terrorist scumbags doing nothing but screaming hate-filled tirades from the perceived 'security' of the Red stage in order to fire up the "cannon fodder" while being themselves scared s***less to stand anywhere near the front lines!

Even one take-out might well suffice. We saw how these cowards were poo-pooing their panties after the looney ex-army mad-dog was whacked on Thursday! The remaining cowards would soon be running for the hills (or the arid wastes of Isaan!)

Far better one or two of these "Little Hitlers" be presented with a "Big Sleep" than dozens dead (some of them innocent) on the street.

"screaming hate-filled tirades from the perceived 'security' of the Red stage in order to fire up the "cannon fodder" while being themselves scared s***less to stand anywhere near the front lines!"

No hate-filled tirade here!

I think 'Seh Daeng' was in fact on the "front line" when he took a cowardly shot to the head by an obvious marksman...justified execution (attempt...he's holding on) to save lives, I suppose your moronic reasoning goes. You would do well to get off your Bangkok barstool and see a bit more of Thailand...the heart of Thailand in the Northeast. Asking you to talk to the people or mingle with anyone outside the confines of this largely bigoted forum, I suppose, would be asking too much. But your visa just may come up for renewal one day in a new administration that might not be so eager to sustain you any longer as a narrow-minded guest (read jerk) in "these here parts" of the world.

Oh, and check under your bed tonight for terrorists...they're everywhere.

I really don't see that the Government or the Army have anything to gain by starting violence. Quite the opposite in fact. I suspect that the grenade was fired by an extremist, probably Red.

Of course the government has nothing to gain by such a blantantly stupid act, which is not to say fringe elements of both sides have everything to gain from their warped POV. Upping the stakes from either side throws the whole "rebellion" into another magnitude...one, I might submit, that helps no one in Thailand, and least of all any hopes for democratic reform. The Red Shirts are making their point and have generally shown huge restraint. The same can be said for government forces who are forced to provide "security" without any weapons. It's probably a stand-off, though one which might last a good while. My suspicion is that it will be fringe yellow shirts (non-army, non-government) who will try to force a confrontation, then blame the Red Shirts. With the two papers here publishing any story that fits, it makes for non-coverage. All I know is that the procession in front of Ramathibodi Hospital this morning was astounding. The march on Bangkok alone should give the present administration some pause, if not put it on notice.

(This has been an un-paid for observation, though a little lunch money is always welcomed.)

Not surprised. A desperate man.

Just let it all go away and let the country move on....all these stupid court trials are politicized and will just keep the Thai economy in crap city.

A Reminder...

That's a sensible suggestion, just advocate that Thailand revert back to the free-wheelin', free market days that sent the entire "global economy" (however defined) into an irreversible tail-spin...as if Thailand was immune from the real estate/banking practices and bubbles of the West.

This forum is laughable in its imagined precept as a medium for open and candid discussion. And we, as foreigners, are naive to engage in what I consider to be largely discussions of "the politics of inconsequence," if I might coin a phrase. We are right where the Thai government wants us: marginalized, detached, segregated and conspicuously marooned in our Western-styled ghettos and comdominiums...left to our visa-runs and check-ins and to the largely mythical pursuit of providing Thailand with what it perceives as the necessary evil of language, Western "know-how," and the techno-goodies of the day that might or might not facilitate the almighty "trade" potential with Western markets and partnerships for whom the Thais are forced to love, hate and fear at once. Thailand has been good at the game historically, some would say, with its claims of colonial independence, its agility in production of Western designed goods for Western markets, the sustenance of its own unique cultural integrity and continuity, and for its generosity to refugees, at times, during the upheaval of neo-colonial Indochina. (Whew, didn't think I could ever use that name again.) But we must remember that we are here at Thailand's bidding. We, as Falang, are tolerated...our hair, our manners, our dress, our tattoos, our odd behavior, our rationality and irrationality, our own intolerance or ignorance of Thai customs and taboos...we are not by any means generally accepted, but merely tolerated. And there are ample reasons for a genuine distrust of foreigners, and ones that predate the advent of the "Falang." But I've digressed far too far.

We need to content ourselves with the limited understanding we have of local politics. We need to bicker and fret over corruption, over whom in which colored clad polo shirt might wrest the next cycle of uprisings from the front pages of local "papers of record." We need to lull in our private satisfaction of knowing as much as we know, as much as is printed, and only as much as we can perceive from an extremely isolated perspective. We have perhaps only two thirds the picture at hand, and can only guess at the rest, but not talk about it, debate it, or otherwise include it in any coherent analysis of what we see or what is reported. One thing is certain, however, and that is the fact that the Red Shirts are here to stay, and the means with which they are "reconciled" by the rest of the power elite will, in large measure, define Thailand's political future, if not its economic future as well.

I was five days ago in Preah Vihear coming from the Cambodian side. Impressed about the military presence spread over the entire hill and surrounding areas, carefully watching the Thai side from where one can see the Thai soldiers as well. The morale of the Cambodan troops is high (all former Khmer rouge soldiers, who know how to fight in the jungle). All Cambodian tourists give presents, sigarettes, money and food and drinks. They are brought uphill by 4x4 pick-up trucks via a relatively good concrete road (but in places very steep) which is crossing through the disputed zone (if I may believe the map in the heading of this article). Road development down the hill in the valley is going at an incredible speed. The village grows from year to year (I saw this village for the first time in 1996 from the top of the mountain and it was not more than 5 baracks and makeshifts). One gets from Anlong Veng to Preah Vihear in 1 hour 15 minutes (100 km via road under construction) and from Siem Reap to Anlong Veng in 1 hour (nicely asphalted road). It looks to me that the Cambodian intention is to permanently close the border with Thailand coming from the silly Khao Phra Viharn national park (which has only be created from the Thai side to generate money from the tourists): there is absolutely NOTHING TO SEE IN THIS SO-CALLED NATURAL PARK!

Perhaps this will be the solution for the future: a permanent stand-off on the 4.7 Km2 disputed land (stalemate) and absolute closure of the Thai -Cambodian border at Preah Vihear. And who do you think will be the loser then???

Thais' red and yellow shirts: if you want to visit Preah Vihear: buy yourself a Cambodian visa and a ticket to Phnom Penh and further to Siem Reap and take the bus to Preah Vihear. That is the only possibility.... and the problem is solved thanks to dumb people like Veera and consorts...

I am afraid that Thais are pulling the shortest string. Only by talking and negotiating with the owners of this pagoda they can save some of this extremely nice historical site (upon which they are shooting now: one can see the damage from impacting bullets) and secure access from Thailand. There is not a day to loose because the infrastructure is getting in place very quickly from the Cambodian side.

Were you able to get to the temple? I noticed you said that there was already damage to it from recent skirmishes.

This is a complex and befuddling dispute, made no easier to sort out by the involvment of political whackos whose interests in the site are purely self-serving. Preah Vihear is a major historical, religious and cultural (Khmer, lest we and the Thais have forgotten) landmark and architectural monuement, and well-derserving its "Heritage" classification (despite the perhaps "rushed" circumstances around which the declaration was made). The dispute is made no simpler by the shoddy cartography conducted by the French, who, in their own fading colonial/political glory, decided to ignore one signifcant topographical feature of the surrounding area...the "mean water shed" of the serpentine mountains in the adjacent areas. This has been repeatedly debated by so-called objective foreign bodies in world courts and by largely Western "experts" and authorities. The entire debate is based on maybe two or three historical "watersheds" (if you will pardon the pun), all having their own sets of circumstances unique to the times, depending on how far back you would like to go. Borders between Laos and Thailand, and Cambodia and Thailand have been uncharted and fluid for at least the past millennium. Why now, do the Thais and Cambodians feel they can lay claim with any certainty to the disputed area surrounding Preah Vihear? They cannot. It is futile to try to hash this dispute out rationally in a world court or through an impartial party. The only way this dispute will make any headway toward sustaining the integrity, sanctity and ultimate beauty of the temple itself and its surrounds will be through immediate negotiations at the highest state levels of both the Cambodian and Thai Governments...at an official, not an ad hoc politico level. PAD butt out. All the military posturing and sword rattling, not to mention the unethically boorish attempts of a certain bullying party to expand its agenda, has done nothing but prolong, provoke and heighten tensions between the two countries.

It will come down to riel and baht, unfortunately, and the fate of a sacred temple must be bartered. Each party must figure out what the revenue loss/gain will be from its point of view, given different scenarios, and a decision as to how access will be made to Preah Vehear from both sides of the border needs be negotiated. Historically, the easiest access has been from the Thailand side due to geograpy, thus perhaps the irrational proprietary and nationalistic claims by shrill politicos. But this is changing. A whole infrastructure has been built up around the dispute on the Cambodian side. Soon, there will be a more balanced physical approach from both sides. Compromise will have to be made with respect to revenue sharing. Thailand should be able to gain access to the temple and be able to charge for its tours, with ownership of the temple remaining in Cambodian hands. There should be appropriate surrounding land for the temple itself, with perhaps disputed lands being given back to Cambodia to maintain the integrity of the overall site... if nothing more than for its preservation and aesthetic. Thailand already holds more than its share of Khmer ruins. Both countries should benefit from the revenues of the site, but Cambodia will have to pay the lion's share in upkeep and maintenance if they are to retain ownership, obviously. The armies need to withdraw their troops immediately. Cambodia can ill-afford to maintain a standing army of that size anywhere in its coutnry. It is too poor, and can better use its precious resouces elsewhere. Thailand could also bring all its forces back to the rear, and perhaps be put to work cleaning the canal system in Bangkok and other neglected civil affairs projects in their curious mix of missions. But it should be a strictly bi-lateral form of negotiations without enlisting outside entities. ASEAN was wise to stay clear of this debate.

This may sound overly simplistic, but it would just take a couple of high-ranking officials from both countries (if there are any with a sincere concern for the site itself) to begin the talks. Dubai would not be my first choice for a meeting spot.

The key word (and absurdity) is "paper trail." Yeah, just make certain all those pay-offs in the form of cancelled checks and any misc. contracts with local thugs are destroyed when the Interpol auditors come around. Oh, and make sure your work permit is on the premises or at least a copy of it is attached to a copy of each "bar fine"...for accounting purposes. Let's make these "businesses" a bit more transparent, if that's possible. What critics of the "system" fail to see is that corruption actually helps the economy. Everyone needs a car and a big screen on every floor with iPhones for the kids. The "Thai Dream" is no different from the "American Dream." We're all in this global village together. Let's not lump the gravy. Stay tuned for the next episode of "As the Earth Warms."

If you have children, then you could reason that they need to learn to speak tagalog which of course a thai maid cannot speak. This worked for a friend of mine

Both Thai and Tagalog being such sought after 2nd languages, no reason why the government wouldn't buy it, though a foreigner cannot hire another foreigner under any circumstances without having some business license or entity (with justification) allowing him or her to do so. Still worth a try if you are hel_l bent on hiring a foreigner. We have had maybe 5 Burmese nannies (legal ones with work papers)...all but one was unreliable. Better off hiring locals, and if you pay them well and are good to them, they will reciprocate with good work and care for your family.

"putting down this red revolution will restore internal and international confidence in Thailand"

You mean by sending the fleet of buses over to pick up the participants who have to go back to work now.

Still in the hub of headline hyperbole, why stop at using the word ' putting down'....why not use 'crushing'?

or

'Abhisit stomps on red anarchists'

'Brave Abhisit defeats the old ladies in wheelchairs'

Good point. The same forces (factions) that were "reluctant" (read cowardice in the face of money and power of Bangkok's aristocracy) to enforce the law under the "yellow shirt" siege of airports, Government House and various other venues around town, are now eager to bash heads, fire "unreal" bullets into crowds, and generally crush a popular revolt that has been brewing since the elitist Bangkok minority rigged the courts, the constitution and saw fit to render illegal any and all oppostion parties. And the BBC interviewer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7996781.stm) has the imperious stupidity to call the present parliamentary appointed dupe the head of a "democratically elected government."

The interviewer's (name?) words (neither a question nor "objective" statement, but a full-on editorial) are worth quoting: (To Thaksin)

Interviewer:

"You keep talking about democracy. But this is a democratically elected government that these protestors are simply trying to force out of government through their weight on the streets. Now, that is not democracy."

BBC surely has better informed reporters to conduct such an important interview. Shameful.

But it doesn't matter which "camp" you might align yourself with (both seem equally unconcerned about any genuine democratic reform), ultimately nothing good will come from the banterings and violent demonstrations on the parts of both sides until (i) the military can be cleansed of its obvious partisanship, (ii) the police forces (not just Bangkok, but forces in the south) can be relied upon to support the rule of law over graft, corruption and prejudice and (iii) parliament begins to forge a road toward a real constitutional monarchy, one not based on party politics or fears of what the future might hold for the royal family. All these are rightful concerns of the vast majority of Thai citizens (at least this is my reading of them in the press), and deserve being candidly and openly debated for the benefit of the country, Kingdom and people. No easy task, and not to sound paternalistic, but I think these are all healthy signs and the growing pains of a burgeoning democracy, albeit a slow one.

Actually in another thread he appears to say he as a multi entry non immigrant O visa and makes 90 day stays so he does not even need re-entry permits.

Please clarify - do you exit country every 90 days and return for a new permitted to stay stamp? Or were you referring to 90 day address reporting in the other thread.

I was talking about reporting every 90 days. My extension of stay is permitted up to Jan. 2010. I have to notify immigration of my address every 90 days (90 day reporting).

All of this started with a non-O visa.....then I went with my wife for the "interrogation." Then there was a waiting period during which my application for extension of stay was under consideration (stamped Thai wife).

Clear?

On another thread......the one about the airport in the swamp.......a person posted a sign that was posted at the airport and it states that reentry permits can be obtained at any immigration checkpoint (except the airport).

Somebody from immigration needs to go over there and read that sign. Do they not mean what they say?

Logic will not help this thread. Most convoluted questions AND answers I've read on this site...and there have been dillies. Good luck, for that is what it will take to sort through all this gibberish. Sorry I cannot be of help.

I take that back. It might be of help to briefly outline the working logic of Thai Immigration and provincial police with respect to the change of "local reporting," which include applications for re-entry.

The Thai national and local police, as well as Immigration Police are organized for the most part at Provincial levels, and less frequently by larger municipalities. From the standpoint of being able to more readily "track" foreigners, especially those who have broken Thai laws, it is almost a necessity to have incriminating evidence, or the evidence of LOCAL ongoing investigations immediately at hand. It has thus been deemed appropriate to change reporting and application laws and venues to facilitate locating and apprehending possible offenders. Much can happen within a three month period, and not all reporting of residences by foreigners is true and accurate. Immigration authroities do not have the resources to verify each and every 90-day report by visitors or long-time residence of Thailand. While it may pose an added burden to foreigners living in remote areas of provinces, in the long the new laws are protecting you, as much as you might feel them an inconvenience. I know, as a husband of a Thai National and the father of two children, that I would want local authorities to have at their immediate disposal any and all information regarding a foreigner who might be under investigation for child abuse, or as a potential preditor...as one example. The obvious threat of terrorism is another. It is quite conceivable that a foreign offender could go "underground" during any 90-day reporting period, and successfully evade apprehension until perhaps he or she needed a re-entry permit or decided to leave the country for good. Thai law has been tightened on many "fronts" at the increased pressure from foreign governments. Thai law is designed, as it should be, to protect Thai citizens first. We are guests here, and should act accordingly. When residing in the US, my Thai wife, and I as her spouse were required to report to immigration all changes of address. This has been more rigorously enforced since 911. Many immigration laws have changed since then at the prompting of the US and other European nations. I hope this windy attempt at Thai immigration logic might make sense within the narrow confines of this thread. Again, good luck.

Actually in another thread he appears to say he as a multi entry non immigrant O visa and makes 90 day stays so he does not even need re-entry permits.

Please clarify - do you exit country every 90 days and return for a new permitted to stay stamp? Or were you referring to 90 day address reporting in the other thread.

I was talking about reporting every 90 days. My extension of stay is permitted up to Jan. 2010. I have to notify immigration of my address every 90 days (90 day reporting).

All of this started with a non-O visa.....then I went with my wife for the "interrogation." Then there was a waiting period during which my application for extension of stay was under consideration (stamped Thai wife).

Clear?

On another thread......the one about the airport in the swamp.......a person posted a sign that was posted at the airport and it states that reentry permits can be obtained at any immigration checkpoint (except the airport).

Somebody from immigration needs to go over there and read that sign. Do they not mean what they say?

Logic will not help this thread. Most convoluted questions AND answers I've read on this site...and there have been dillies. Good luck, for that is what it will take to sort through all this gibberish. Sorry I cannot be of help.

There seems to be an awful lot of speculation in this thread.

Cherchez la femme.

More speculation: This is the only possible scenario. Wifey discovers that real estate tycoon hubby has somehow found a mistress. Wifey has warned and threatened mistress to butt out to no avail. Mistress is tough with eye on one thing and will not be intimidated. Hubby finally caves to wifey's pressure and calls off affair with mistress. Jilted mistress calls out "hit" on hubby, ironically at the same time wifey calls out her own "hit", not believing hubby will ever end affair. The two hitmen know each other and decide to, rather than compete over the same target, collaborate. Both are neophytes with Brazil-made snubnose .38 (five shot) revolvers purchased in Chinatown. Hubby gets the phoney call to business (emergency) meeting to get him out of the house. Two hitmen on motorbike drive by and fire 10 shots at close range, missing with three. Investigation turns up little with no witnesses coming forward. Wifey eventually reaps the spoils of hubby's mini empire. But when mistress puts out another hit, this time unsuccessful, on wifey, they are both caught by police in the plot and are convicted and sent up for a year or two. End of story.

I do feel for the guy, but this thread was driving me bonkers. Unfortunately, hitmen are cheap. Life here is valued no more or no less than anywhere else in the world. But poverty cheapens all our lives.

And Thailand's answer to its declining image and lawlessness is to have the Ministry of Tourism promote a national drink.

Bhoydy...

Funny you should ask. I am in the beginning stages of writing yet another (my first) phonetic guide to American English (sorry, not so US-centric as I am ignorant of British transcriptions and related "issues") for Thai students. Geared primarliy to the beginning student (P-1, 2 & 3), I hope to interest teachers and students alike in an English transcription system with the hope of eventually eliminating the often ambiguous and misleading Thai parallel transcriptions of Romanized script. I performed a cursory search in libraries (while home) and on the Internet for an appropriate lesson plan or system, but found nothing to my liking.

I'm neither a linguist nor a very experienced teacher, but when I first saw my daughter's P-1 English workbook, I suddenly realized the overwhelming need to introduce an exclusively English (British English will follow, I hope, if my proposal takes root) phonetic system in an attempt to completely bypass and obviate the need for the cumbersome and frequently redundant existing Thai equivalent.

Presently, my daughter's vocabulary words are presented in three columns in her workbook with: (i) the English word, (ii) the Thai phonetic equivalent (sort of), and (iii) the Thai translation. While I can see the necessity of the translation, obviously, the Thai phonetic equivalent is, I feel, an unnecessary evil, which, more often than not, benefits no one except perhaps the Thai teacher who has never learned or been exposed to an English phonetic system. The Thai pronunciation transcription creates a needless dependency on the native language, rather than attempting to embrace the phonetics of the target language, in this case, English. Further, the Thai pronunciation transcription is typically inaccurate and only an approximation of the English. And finally, the Thai pronunciation transcription does not provide a future guide for the advancing (presumably) student who eventually will need to be able to "sound out" words rather than relying soley on a rote method of learning new vocabulary.

Anyway, I certainly could use any assitance from more experienced teachers and academics who might agree with my premise. I plan to submit a draft of the phonetic system to a linguist friend for her comments before submitting a formal proposal to the Ministry of Education. I will not seek a copyright or patent for my work, as most of what I will be proposing will already have been published in one form or another. I do plan to simplify any and all international phonetic standard tables I might run across, however, and may submit them here for any additional comment. This project is not for profit, and will be donated to any institution or individual who thinks it worthwhile.

Laurence Neber, [email protected]

Bangkok, 1/27/09