jupiterandromeda

The farang who is trying to cancel the parade is the president of a group called CHIANG MAI FREUNDES and the editor of the CHIANG MAI MAIL is on the board...that's why!

Firstly, the name of the fundraising group you are referring to is Thailandfreunde NV , NOT Chiang Mai FREUNDES. The group, over the last few months, have donated a large amount of money to various children's charities in this city.

The Editor of the Chiang Mai Mail is indeed, voluntarily helping that organisation with its local publicity in the paper, as a committee member elected for that reason. She has publicised in this manner many other organisations, and has, very recently and on former occasions, publicised Mplus by editing and placing received texts.

The reason why there have been no references to the gay parade in last two issues of the Chiang Mai Mail is that a great deal of unnecessary unpleasantness has been generated by this issue, with very little logic or understanding being shown, particularly on this forum. The paper's editor feels that readers, even if presented with both sides of the story, of which its editor is well aware, might just get a little bored with 'he says this' 'he says that', plus all kinds of ill-considered accusations, from whichever side they originated.

Obviously, I do not know, nor do I wish to know, who you are, but your unequivocal statement that the reason that no reference has been made in the CM Mail to the present shenanigans is because the paper's editor is involved with TF causes a great deal of offence.

How do I know all this? Because I am the editor of the Chiang Mai Mail, and the person whom you accused.

Okinasan

however much the Thailandfreunde NV have donated to charity - and they should be applauded for that - they should not have cause so much trouble in the Gay community - and especially as they are Gay themselves. I agree with the earlier comment - spend your Pink Pound wisely - not supporting people who have managed to caused Gay Pride to be prohibited - then they will hopefully learn.

I heard these two trouble makers are doing it because they want to take over Gay Pride. They want to control it and make money from it. Gay Pride events make alot of money by bringing in tourists. But it is the same people who who did it last year, doing it this year. Thais.. So this fight is about money and power.

Shame on people who come in to town and try to make problems like this. Buying their way in. Then trying something devious like this. They should be ashamed.

Hmmmm....... a sad sad story indeed..... and a young kid who will never ever have a MOM again.

but I guess the Burmese will experience even more unfair treatment than before here now...... would there be such an outcry , if the murderer would have been a THAI (as usually the case) ?

and when that gay Farang Music teacher was slaughtered by young SHAN men in CM just a few days ago, there was no such protest from the Thai citizens.....

it is speculation that they were burmese. i know a maejo student and their reaction in a planned sitin on this crime was focused on the need for a better police investigation. the sit in has not been reported and i am saying no more

on the second point: if you attended the four days of the music teacher funeral you would realise that about 20 farang attended and 130 thai on the last day, about 5 farang and 20 thai on the first 3 days. yes, thais don't protest but equally please do not assume that they all readily blame the shan, the burmese or any other non-thai race. that is just not the case. i do not of course speak for the media

The funeral was well attended by all I think. I went to three days. I was very surprised to see many Thai people but was very pleased that they had come. You cant comparre a falang gay man who;s just been here 1 year and a Thai girl with her network of family and friends at univeristy. It's unfair to try.

Can we stay more focused on the topic, and refrain from personal remarks? Thank you.

agreed - lets focus on the chiang mai pride. i spoke to MPlus today and they are still planning for a parade - ensuring everyone remains polite. lets pass the word out. the parade is set to go. everyone gay str8 or inbetween are welcome - february 21

Good Idea. I just got my copy of the local paper, no mention of the Gay Pride or the other events connected with it. Anyone know the reasons why?. Is the paper homophobic?, or is there another reason?.

Alll local tourist mags we missed because of editorial deadlines. CM Mail,,, I dont know.

Equally, the gay community should be responsible for policing the parade to ensure there are no display's of public affection or too sexually provocative acts that breach Thailand's moral code and give credence to some of the anti-parade arguments put forward in this thread.

Ballocks! There is no such thing as a gay "community." That is a myth. There are gay people and we are very diverse. Some of us will act in ways that are offensive just like any other kinds of people. Turn your bloody head away!

Your kind of talk reminds me of people who used to describe "Uncle Tom" type black American people as "a credit to their race." No, I for one reject that ancient kind of thinking. We should all dress up in dark suits and white shirts like Mormons, I suppose, huh? Why bother with a gay parade then?

If some man is so moved to kiss his boyfriend at a gay event in Thailand, do you think the street will explode if they do so?

of course ther is a gay community. you;re just not part of it.

The reason to parade and demonstrate is proven here every day with the lies and slanders hate and jus stupid old 'white massa' thinking that;s been going on forever.

I know someone in CM in need of a good, English-sepaking AIDs specialists. Unfortunately all the ones I know are in Bangkok. Can anyone make a recommendation that I can pass on?

Thanks

For a man or a woman. Straight or gay. There are a number of Thai NGO's working in AIDS in Chiang Mai Many of them speak excellent english. Perhpas youre looking for a doctor or somewhere to have the test done??? Difficult to know

Oh please Jupiter and Romeda, if you start talking about things being rammed down throats, also, I may gag.....

Great to see an event getting all this publicity, so that the diners at Duke's can have something more to talk about.

Some people like having things rammed down their throats!

Yes, even if it makes us gag! But we do not rape gay men, and they need not fear us.

Oh please Jupiter and Romeda, if you start talking about things being rammed down throats, also, I may gag.....

Great to see an event getting all this publicity, so that the diners at Duke's can have something more to talk about.

True too true. Sorry....It's just peoples imaginations sometimes. I mean really. It's just a parade in Chiang Mai Thailand, for Buddha's sake.

My complaint about gay pride parades is basically two-fold. First, these parades are sometimes in large part grossly self-indulgent. Pretty childish, really. Second, it is true that Thai culture is in some respects very tolerant of sexual diversity, but the vulgar displays one often sees in such parades is really not consistent with Thai traditions of modest behavior in public.

I would agree with the above, the situation in Thailand is very different to how the west used to be. I would even suspect it may not be a good idea to ram one on these parades down the Thais throat.

Aside from that I'll be steering clear of any place that has you lot gyrating in g-strings on the back of a float. My kids know my brother is gay and it is irrelevant, however the sight of a gay pride march might well change that to thinking he is some kind of weirdo.

There is nothing wrong with self indulgence, if it doesnm't go on too long! It is the Thais ramming down thai throats in CM so ....

As to gyrating in g-strings.....why do you remember these images?

All I ask is why do gays need a parade? I don't see parades for heterosexuals. Parades just plug up the traffic in already over crowded streets.

I am gay and agree - I have always been completely bored with, and never seen the point of, all that show, fake jolity and blokes dressed up as girlies on the backs of trucks. It just seems an excuse for the trannies to put on their skirts and blouses. I often wonder if it is counterproductive with the public - it certainly doesn't tell them anything about me and most gays I know (actually all gays I know). Can't we have something different and maybe more cultural and a bit more serious or down to earth - or aren't we gays capable of doing anything in public except putting on the pink or back-stabbing people who don't smile through it all?

Actually I agree with you about all the dressing up. It can be fun but seems over the top. But festive expression is important, Maybe because I used to do theatre, dressing up to go out seems old hat.

Something more cultural is planned, more sedate. However people are coming from Phuket and BKKK so it should show the whole cultural mix of LGBT society in T now....

have to say that i find it quite scary that there are still people who think that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, like being a punk or a teddy boy. read some books, guys.

It is a lifestyle choice.. You didn't choose to be 'gay' but you can choose your lifestyle.. You can get on with your life, study, get a career find a soul mate and live happily ever after with hardly anybody showing any negative interest in your life..

OR

You can dye your hair pink, wear outrageous coustumes, camp it up and talk with a pronounced list.. Wave your limp wrist around and do your best to walk like a Marilyn Monroe caricature in high heels..shouting 'what a gay day'...

This is the difference.. The first guy blends in and mixes with society... The second flaunts his sexuality and does his best to alienate himself.. while complaining that nobody accepts him..

If you are gay no problem.. do you job, enjoy your life.... Just don't tell me about it... and I won't bore you with my sexual pecadilos...

Actually, I am gay and not a bleeding heart, and have never been outrageously gay in any way - quite sober and mainly closeted, so i fit into the first category. This has never protected me from the bullies and hateful homophobes all my life. So this statement clearly shows complete ignorance of what many gays, especially closetted gays, have to go through, often on a daily basis. Trying to 'fit' in to a straight society does not, I repeat does not, necessarily in itself lead to a 'happy', integrated life-style. So please, don't try to give people like me advice on how happiness can be achieved in my life style as you obviously haven't a clue. Stick to what you know.

Thank you

Great idea if they can get a nice polite walk around the moat etc and promote the idea that just like heterosexuals gays too lead normal lives (jobs, relationships etc)

Horrible idea if it's just another time for all the ladyboys and other gays to over exaggerate where white shirts, no bras, cowboy hats and dance to really loud Loog Tung from the back of a pickup like it's sonkran.

No matter the race or creed there are those who will set bad examples and whether they are the majority or minority the whole will be remembered by their actions. I hope this is not the case

I think if people want to express themselves why not. There is always a festive event when people go crazy. Mardi Gras. You cannot control how people want to dress any more than you can control clouds.

These are not bad examples these are wonderful expressions of personal expression/ You all have to get over these narrow confines of gender identity.

I think that the six pages written about this event has shown that there is indeed a necessity for such a parade. There is a lot of ignorance about gay-related issues. These people are trying to raise awareness and do a good thing. If you want to go, go, if you don't want to go, avoid it. Nothing is being shoved in anyone's faces, the Chinese community held a Chinese new year celebratoin recently, on children's day they hold a celebration, yada yada. No harm, and possible gain. So what is the problem. MPlus is an excellent organisation, their article in The Nation was very well written and had pertinent points. Chiang Mai is a city of diversity, let's celebrate it and if it helps MPlus to prevent spreak of HIV, then all the better. Go gays!

Hear Hear!

Thank you. It is as some people have commented on the number of negative, inaccurate and hateful comments coming from many that this Gay Pride Event is necessary.

The Gay Pride Events have from the beginning been organized by Thai people. NGO's working in the field of AIDS, trying to bring equality to LGBT.

Can you prove this? I don't know about CM but my understanding is that the early Bangkok gay days were started by foreigners, but then later Thai groups took it over. In Pattaya, there are smaller scale gay pride events every year, I have never detected any hint of Thais being behind their organization. Rather they seem more as PR events for certain foreign owned gay hotels and go go bars though they do raise money for good causes of benefit to locals. If I am wrong about this, glad to hear it. Phuket also has events.

I do realize that gay events throughout the world can be very meaningful to the local people. In some countries the marchers must wear masks, in some cases they are beat up and/or arrested. My feeling however in Thailand is that the origin of the gay day events did NOT come organically from the local Thai population. I can't prove that either, just my impression from over the years.

Sorry, did not mean to mislead. The Gay Pride Event in CM was started by Thais. Dont know about BKK or Phuket.

I my opinion most people writing here have no idea what is happening in the country they are living in.

The Gay Pride Events have from the beginning been organized by Thai people. NGO's working in the field of AIDS, trying to bring equality to LGBT.

They succeed much more than participants here know, but it is in a quiet Thai way

Not the usual loudmouthed white hetrosexual male manner of I know everything. This attitude is already dead, though someone needs to tell them.

Like the racist attitudes against Blacks in America, the same stereotype comments abound.

One person talks of objective research, but only brings up heresay with unsubstantiated facts.

Gay Pride is open to all LGBT groups, but first and foremost to Thai groups who used this event to build community consensus and, well.... pride of being who they are.

It;s a no small thing to stand up and claim your own human rights if you are differerent from others. They do not make room for you at the table easily. If some of the expressions of gay pride are a little too much, then consider them as a reaction to years of oppression and denying of human dignity.

Yes, it appears that gays are more accepted in Thai society. However, when you look deeper into the fabric of the culture you will find many restrictions on how one could and should exercise one's life.

This deeper understanding of Thailand takes years to understand a little. What is happening here is Gay Thai are taking the western model of Gay Pride and trying to adapt it to circumstances here.

Gay Pride happens all around the world. It is an expression of the joy of being. If some people are offended by parts of the presentation, well dont look. Many things in hetro

society we find boring and turn to another channel. This does not mean that we do not respect you as individuals. No, we see the hetrosexual majority in dissaray, trying to cope with a world order falling apart before their eyes. The issue of gender and what makes a man and a woman is changing before our eyes. The old ideas of masculinity and feminity have changed. There is no control now on how much of either is right. For centuries, perhaps millennia this question of what;s right and wrong has plagued humanity. Well enough!

What does it matter that someone presents him or herself differently to the 'normal' equasion. All that does is to cause everyone to reexamine themselves. Since it is too disturbing to most people to question themselves, they hit out at what they perceive to be deficient in others. We could all benefit from turning inward and seeing own atttudes for what they are, constructs of our culture, definitions from parents and elders.

I suggest to you that gender identity is something that changes over time and people go into more feminity or more masculinity all the time. So to deny someone's shift of identity only points to your own fears. Gender is not fixed.

The ridiculous comment about condom display is innane. We live in an age of AIDS. Promiscuity is a danger for all. We're not Victorians after all.

ooops homophobia is not even in my 1978 edition of the oxford english dictionary

Well there you are: Out of date. What a surprise?

My complaint about gay pride parades is basically two-fold. First, these parades are sometimes in large part grossly self-indulgent. Pretty childish, really. Second, it is true that Thai culture is in some respects very tolerant of sexual diversity, but the vulgar displays one often sees in such parades is really not consistent with Thai traditions of modest behavior in public.

I would agree with the above, the situation in Thailand is very different to how the west used to be. I would even suspect it may not be a good idea to ram one on these parades down the Thais throat.

Aside from that I'll be steering clear of any place that has you lot gyrating in g-strings on the back of a float. My kids know my brother is gay and it is irrelevant, however the sight of a gay pride march might well change that to thinking he is some kind of weirdo.

Again this is Chiang Mai. Not LA. Would uyou get over your unnecessary fear please?

Sounds like Mplus is angling for funding. Why can't these NGOs stop trying to fix things that aren't broken?

Not at all. there are some 'other gay groups' and gay people who have got upset because they were not invited. They have forgotten why we hold Gay Prides (united we stand), they - the people trying to stop it - are all about their own self publicity - a thai man and a german - they should be ostracized by the whole gay community. MPlus held the first gay pride last year, they need help - not hinderance. Going to the authorities was WRONG

So if I understand this correctly, it is some gay groups for the parade and others against. In other words there are factions within the gay community. This is rather different than ordinary people taking a stand against it. Isn't this more of a situation where within one group, one section feels it is being misrepresented by another??

Yes there are factions within the gay community, same as all communities. But this should never have been brought to the authorities - but sorted out within the gay community. Hopefully the Gay Pride will be a success. anyone knows dates, times places?

This division among the ranks is an interesting wrinkle in gay life in CM. It;s being analysed and dealt with. But the why of the opposition is a much more interesting question;

Hey lets have a straight pride march people can march down the street NOT wearing backless leather chaps , they could shave off their moustaches and untie their tee shirts from around their navel . Seriously why do gay people feel the need to parade their sexuality in such a way ? its almost as if they want to provoke a reaction be it positve or negative . Why not just get on and live your lives no one is that interested in you or what you do , isnt that what you keep saying you want ?

You guys and gals march every day. Look 13 of you got arrested in T for a sex party. That;s you. It;s time for the hetrosexual community to grow up. There are plenty of online sites of extremes for hetros. You just have to realise its time for you to change. Or be quiet, swallow your great opinion of yourself and show some humily, some respect for difference.

If gays were black we;d call your views Racist. Is there any difference between the racist against blacks and the racism shows against gays. NO. And who is doing it? Always the straight white males who thing the world belongs to them.

This world belongs to all the people living on it. So swallow your boasting ego. And learn humility and kindness. Pity the women and childrennaround you.

they got arrested for having group sex in a hotel hardly the same as a group mincing themselves into a frenzy in front of small chidren. there are also plenty of online sites for extreme homos.you are the only ones with a great opinion of yourselves hence the need for you to keep having these parades so you can make a spectacle of your selves. boasting ego ? re gay parade . dont talk about children they are something you will never have if you are truly gay and not just indulging your own selfish perversions .

You'r missing the point. This hate of difference is the real killer of the human spirit.

That;s all that;s being said. Dont blow it up into some homophobic crisis. Its just a parade. This is Thailand and Chiang Mai. Where do you poeple live? Have you no idea of the culture that surrounds you. These are Chiang Mai people wanting to express themselves, with their friends. Please keep your hate for those you love.

Oh please surely in the 21st century people can't take offence at a gay pride event?

It is a party, a celebration of life, tolerance and community. If more people celebrated these values more regularly then perhaps there would be a lot less strife and misery in the world.

Live and let live and the world might become a better place.

if its truly a celebration of community then why this overpowering need to advertise your differences to those of other sexual persuasions.

just get on and enjoy your lives as part of the community as everybody else does and less have lets of this setting yourselves apart as some persecuted minority.

nobody is really interested in your sexual preferences or anybody elses for that matter.

What makes you think that other groups are not included. Gay expats will join. The Burmese expats. the Lesbian, and gays from Phuket, Bangkok and pataya. If we can we will have many visitors from all over the world

Come on guys. This is a party. Gays know how to celebrate. Live a little. Maybe it;s just that you dont know about the opression and shame most LGBT have to live through before they find the persoal power to come out to themselves and othersl

Gay Pride parades happen precisely because there is this deaddening lack of understanding and lack of acceptance. If you accept, then you have to let gay people show themselves as they are. Maybe you'll learn to be more happy about who you are. This absolute control of gender identity between only male and only female is illusory and binds everyone into the roles they;re born with.

thais generally accept gays , transvestites , transgenders and those of all other sexual preferences , as part of societies , communities and workplaces and have done for a long time without the need or desire to have western style gay pride parades.

perhaps gays should be tolerant of the views of a lot of thais when it comes to sexuality , and that is to live and let live but keep it low key.

I agree with this, I don't see the need for a celebration to accentuate differences. I'm not gay but know many people who are and both Thai and foreigners seem to be very well accepted into the community. To hold an event which merely serves to exaggerate the differences would I think have an adverse affect on the local community. It would grate on their tolerance and would highlight divisions. If you want to live successfully in a local community the best way is to integrate and it's a little difficult to do when you keep pointing out that you are different.

However if the gay community wanted to organise something that the whole community could take part in, then it would be received rather differently.

It's a little bit as if I wanted to organise a parade for foreigners only, the local community immediately would be excluded.

incidentally, those not happy with this do realise that 'gay pride' is just a name for a party nowadays yes? and that the origins of the name are in celebrating the fact that discrimination and prejudice had been overcome back in the 1960s? it's a celebration of diversity and society's ability to evolve into something that accepts people of all sorts and types as just that, people.

So if the discrimination and prejudice was overcome in the 60's why are people still banging on about it now! Why does anyone need to celebrate that they are gay?

Because obviously, from your post, the prejudice didn;t all go away. And why should'nt anyone celebrate their being. You should rather enjoy, encourage these differences. Let 10000 flowers bloom!!

All I ask is why do gays need a parade? I don't see parades for heterosexuals. Parades just plug up the traffic in already over crowded streets.

If you did have a parade for heterosexuals there would be an uproar in the gay community, you would all be labeled as homophobes, yet in reality straights should have the same right to celebrate being straight as gays.

I think the main issue with gays is they let their sexuality DEFINE them, IE, wanting to portray to the world that they are gay. Mind you, not all, but most do this. . I dont have a problem with someone that is gay, until they feel they need to announce the fact, and shove it in my face.....like the form of a parade. The same goes for some jock that defines himself as a die hard sports fan, no problem until they start getting rowdy.

But to me, its sad that someone would let something as simple as their sexuality define them, as for me, what sex I prefer is such a small portion of who I am as a person, that it would be such a waste if that was my main trait that I showed to the world. I pity most gays that are "gay and proud", so sad to have that as your major focus of their life. The gays that are gay and carry out life without the need to announce it, I admire.

What an excellent post... Wish I could have put my point so elloquently...

I agree, I wish I wouldn't have posted mine now that I read this.

If people want to have a parade what's it to you/. Dont look. Turn away. But if you have a problem accepting someone different maybe you should be looking at why you're not more tolerant. It takes a long time to grow a human. Dont give up on yourself just because you;ve come to something you dont like. This doesnt mean its bad. For you maybe but not for others. Maybe there's a little intollerance showing up?

Nothing against gays, they make the same contributions to society as everyone else.

But why the need for a parade?

Most everyone knows their own sexuality - can't it just be left at that?

This is absolutely right. I was always under the impression that gay people want to be treated like everyone else. There has never been a heterosexual pride parade ever. No need for a gay pride parade, unless they want to be singled out and mocked.

You're missing the point. There is a need for a parade and much more if one single person be singled out and mocked. If that is your attitude, then that also is your answer why.

Having a parade, you force your presence on people. How? Well, the shop owner that happens to be on the street that you choose has little option to get up and leave, as do those that get caught in traffic and have to wait to pass. Now, if you wanted to have a "gay meet" at some undisclosed location in the mountains, that I have no issues with. And I said I do not like it rammed in my face, like what a parade does. And why is it that when ever someone mentions an opinion that differs than that of the gay community, that they are accused of being insecure of their own sexuality?? This is a trend that I notice when ever I express my opinion about gays, they accuse me of being gay myself!

isn't it possible that a parade would bring in more people than ever and thereby actually increase the business of said shop owners?

Gay Prides around the world are known money makers. There;s a marked increase in gay tourism. Many companies now market to lgbt. London has started to market the gauy market to get them to come to London.

Wether sales would increase or not is not what is being debated.

so what was your point? that there shouldn't be a parade because you personally don't like having gayness 'rammed in your face'?

parades and festivals of all kinds bring more money into a local economy. i can't imagine too many shop owners having a problem with that.

rather a couple of Gay people - one Thai and one German who complained.

a gay couple complained about it?

ooooh the bloody bigots!

Not a Thai couple.. well

One very well known Thai who pioneered gay rights in Thailand was involved. Who knows why and a gay couple, newly moved to CM, one thai and one German. God knows why. This event is as inclusive as it comes.

Also, Gay culture in Thailand, as seen by Thai people (not the western view of it), is very different from that seen and accepted in the west. Take for example the number of ladyboys here and events like lady boy shows and contests which are popular even in small farming communities. The culture here is just not the same. For example, should ladyboys have been banned from the Loy Kratong festival parades for the same reasons?

But 'Gay Pride' parades aren't part of Thai culture - they're a western import.

Agreed, but in this case the western import has been taken over by Thais. And the gay community should be rightly sceptical, think of BKK pride........ on second thoughts lets not go there

There was a Dec 1 event fundraiser at Chedi Hotel. Being LGBT does not mean AIDS, let me remind you. Let me further inform you that there are 2 Gay Prides this month in Australia as well as Major one in Rio. Japan is next month. So you all see, this is not going to go away. Deal with it!

Any thai gay event in Thailand would inevitably have loads of guys dressing up as women, even in the provinces where there are no Farangs, and this would be one of the more fun aspects of a Thai Gay pride parade. On the other hand, some of the more blatant displays of flesh which come from western influences are not at all appropriate in public in Thailand.

This thread kinda demonstrates the big concerns about this type of event some in the gay community have - it actually shows gay people are not at all integrated into mainstream society and gives the bigots an opportunity to bash us. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing and am only supporting it because of the HIV angle, which is important.

Had Mplus organised an HIV awareness parade on 1 December (World AIDs day) it may have been a better tactic and wouldn't have drawn the attention and venom that this "Gay Pride" event clearly is.

Gay Pride is not a western import. It is the free expression of a minority being expressed all over the world. Branded Gay Pride gives dignity back to those who feel margianized. And judging from this thread, they have reason to feel less than welcome on planet earth.

There was a Dec 1 event at Chedi Hotel. Furthermore this month there are 2 events in Australia and a major one in Rio. Japan happens next month. Actually Gay Pride is a world wide phenomena. Deal with it.