mesohappy

Dual pricing has nothing to do with paying taxes.

Everybody, even tourists, pays VAT (sales tax).

Almost nobody pays income tax (not the poor thai, not the rich thai, only the small middleclass thai).

So let us stop bringing tax into the discussion.

I believe tourists can be reimbursed for VAT upon exit.

^I agree with you're analogy and as well if you live in Thailand and contribute to the tax base you get same pricing as any Thai with just proof of your residency at the national parks.. A Thai drivers license or work permit is evidence enough..

*edit* That also includes zoo's etc. and even most private attractions as well.

the average Thai pays very little tax. At most, and on a generous day, an additional ฿20 added to a NP admission could be considered tax related. 10 times can't be justified. If taxation is a reasonable argument, why doesn't Singapore, Malaysis or Taiwan engage in such practice. Wait I know why, tourists are treated with respect.

The reason why singapore malaysia etc dont do it is because they are rich, developed countries (heck singapores average income is higher than most brits these days) they have the funds for their national parks.

Interesting fact: Singapore's average income is higher than most Singaporeans as well.

Would everyone please just do me a favour and distinguish between dual pricing based on residency and dual pricing based on citizenship/ethnicity?

The first is legal and practised world wide. The second is very illegal and practised only in Thailand.

To date, there has only been 1 time when I have gotten into a fight at the entrance to the national park and eventually turned around and went home, but that 1 time was enough to turn me off to going to the national parks for good.

As a Thai resident, I am entitled to the Thai price. Period. End of story. If you disagree then you are simply wrong.

The only time I have not made a terrible stink about this is on the 3rd class train from Hualampong. Even I refuse to get into a fist fight over 5 baht, but it still annoys me that they can get away with blatantly illegal and immoral acts.

Third class train???? No wonder you're so concerned with a few hundred baht.

Please obey traffic rules it makes it safer for others.

:D :D

The BIB does not only stop you if you make a mistake. They often just want money. Especially if your on a motorbike.

So follow the rules and you wont worry about getting stopped. Crazy idea huh?

Exactly how long have you been here?

A very quick google search found the following:

Police arrested seven people in Spain and three in Thailand in an international operation against a group suspected of forging passports for an al Qaeda-linked Islamic terrorist group, the Spanish Interior Ministry said Wednesday.

The detainees formed part of a group based in Thailand and linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistan-based terror group blamed for the 2008 Mumbai, India, attacks that killed 166 people, the ministry said in a statement.

The arrests in Spain took place late Tuesday and early Wednesday in the northeastern city of Barcelona, the ministry said.

The detainees included six Pakistanis and one Nigerian. The ministry said the group stole passports, mostly from tourists in the Barcelona area, and sent them to Thailand to be doctored and later distributed to groups linked to al Qaeda.

The ministry said the passports allowed members of the terror groups to enter European and other countries.

The group was run by one of the three people--two Pakistanis and one Thai citizen--arrested in Thailand.

The statement said that in the Spanish raids police seized passports ready to be sent to Thailand,computer and mobile telephone equipment.

-- Cracked by Spanish Police

In the war against terror, especially after the Bali bombings of October 2002, both Malaysia and Indonesia exerted pressure on the Jemaah Islamiah (JI) activists on their soil. As a result, it was believed the operational leadership of JI fled to Thailand.

Arrests made in June 2003 of three men plotting to bomb western embassies in Bangkok during a regional summit brought to light the existence and movement of terrorists in Thailand much to the embarrassment of the government.

Later the Thai police also nabbed a school teacher who was trying to sell the ingredients for a "dirty bomb". When Hambali, the mastermind behind the Bali bombings and operational chief of JI was arrested in Thailand in August 2003, the Thai government realized that terrorists are also functioning in their backyard.

-- Hambali found by US CIA living in Ayuthaya

A Russian arms dealer thought to have inspired the lead character in the blockbuster film Lord of War was arrested in Bangkok today.

Viktor Bout, 41, was detained while allegedly attempting to buy weapons for Colombian rebels.

Dubbed "the merchant of death", he has been accused of breaking UN embargoes since the early 1990s by selling arms to conflict-torn regions in Africa and around the world.

Thai police said today that Mr Bout had been arrested in a Bangkok hotel. "He was attempting to procure weapons for Colombia's FARC rebels", the arrest report said.

-- Arrested in US FBI sting operation

(…to be continued no doubt)

More speculation if you don't mind. These facts are so boring...

countries that are known to "promote, produce or protect terrorist organisations or their members".

Could this be reference to red shirt leaders that are now in government?

This piece of 'reportage' by The Nation, and by extension, by ThaiVisa is irresponsible and potentially inflammatory.

The actual document, if any of the 'reporters' would care to, or be able to, read it says:

"ICE provided this list of specially designated countries. ICE

policy requires officers to perform a TAC for

detained

aliens from

these countries. "

Italics mine.

There is no reference to a "Third Agency Check" for visa applicants, or other legal travelers to the USA.

Since I hear how difficult it is for Thais to travel to the US, and that 'fact' is used as a justification for the byzantine Thai Immigration procedures so frequently, this kind of disinformation merely provides grist for the mill of xenophobia.

And as for the geniuses who keep referring to the possibility that the US is aiming at Red Shirts with this policy: are you even conscious? Have you heard of Muslim separatists in the South, killing Buddhist monks, teachers, and beheading folks? The appear as yet unaligned with JI or Al Qaeda, but they are terrorists, pure and simple. For the US to be interested, we are not talking about dirty Thai politics, which, although it appears new to newbies, has been going on for decades. I'm sure, other than the effect on global markets (read, nil), the US DHS doesn't even know the Reds exist.

Honestly, what a yellow rag The Nation has become. Unfortunately, most here are too lazy or too stupid to look past it.

Well said.

No doubt jails, state prisons and Federal Penitentiaries are generally horrific places to be but it is almost certain that these people are going to a minimum security federal prison 'camp' where they can receive graduate degrees in much shorter time than on the outside while also not paying for the education. They will receive well well balanced meals and live better than many people in the US including likely having access to such things as cable TV and tennis courts not to mention gyms. Lets not forget these folks also appear to be able to keep the millions upon millions of dollars they made off of forcing these folks into slavery.

I believe there needs to be serious prison reform in the US as well as curbing the number of people sentenced to time BUT this sentence is ridiculous and incredibly unfair to people being sentenced to much longer sentences for doing much less harm. The ring leader got convicted of forced labor as if he did this to one person and not 600. In another words under Federal Sentencing guidelines somebody who committed forced labor on 1 person will receive this same sentence. But again, the real joke is the lack of restitution to the victims and the state and letting these scum keep their illegal profits which I doubt they paid any tax on either.

Definitely valid points all if these guys essentially get sent to a fenced in country club. But, has it been stated anywhere where they are being jailed?

Based on numerous factors it is pretty much a guarantee they will NOT do time in a Federal Penitentiary (max. security) and will serve their sentence out in a minimum security (called a camp) facility with white collar criminals. The minimum security facilities don't even have cells, it is dormitory style living and they can pretty much walk away (escape) any time they want. They also will have about 15% of their sentence reduced for good time. Keep in mind this is The Federal Prison system and they don't have jails. They only have what they term Detention Facilities (bad places) where you are held before sentencing and then basically 4 levels of the Prison System .. minimum, low, medium and high security.

The way they determine where you are housed is based on a point system .. example, if you don't have a High School Diploma it adds 2 points and if your offense is minor you get 0 points but depending on the severity of the crime it could add up to 7 points while not having a criminal past will give you 0 points but having an extensive criminal past can get you 10 points. To be sentenced to a a camp you simply need to be below 11 points. Oh, and they even consider things like age .. somebody under 25 gets 6 points while somebody over 55 gets 0 points.

In other words, they try to keep the worst prisons reserved for the poor minorities who are young and lack an education and often stopped by the police and cannot afford a lawyer to take what should be at least 600 charges of abuse and get it down to basically 1 white collar crime when all is said and done.

Nisa, I love you but you're talking out of your arse.

I've noticed on forums like this that the layman usually comes up with the harshest punishment imaginable for most crimes. It actually makes me glad that that there are lawmakers, judges, etc. who see the right path and come up with fairer sentences.

I don't think the average person has a concept of what even a day in prison is like. We're talking about regular people who aren't hardened ending up sobbing like a little girl after day one. Most criminals go into jail as dangerous people and come out worse. And, that's not even touching on the "Bubba" effect, know what I mean?

I think if somebody gets 3, 4, or 5 years in one of these places they can easily come out very wrecked. And, don't forget that many of these people can't get work after leaving prison and they end up right back in there.

It's a pretty nasty thing to get sentenced like that, nasty enough that many people feel that it should be different b/c the harshness of it doesn't seem to do anybody any good, only harm.

Think about it.

+1.

Having both worked in U.S. jails, and had loved ones incarcerated, I can say you are absolutely right. Sadly you will not likely find rational debate on this subject in a forum such as this. It's known that after about the 10 year mark people are usually not able to return to a functional, normal life again. People tend to only focus on the "punishment" wishing suffering on the prisoner with no thought about what is to come of them after they are released. Education of prisoners seems abhorrent to many. Very short term thinking.

Interesting to hear it from the horse's mouth as it were. Let's hope the guys who did this don't come out of prison as even worse criminals.

No doubt jails, state prisons and Federal Penitentiaries are generally horrific places to be but it is almost certain that these people are going to a minimum security federal prison 'camp' where they can receive graduate degrees in much shorter time than on the outside while also not paying for the education. They will receive well well balanced meals and live better than many people in the US including likely having access to such things as cable TV and tennis courts not to mention gyms. Lets not forget these folks also appear to be able to keep the millions upon millions of dollars they made off of forcing these folks into slavery.

I believe there needs to be serious prison reform in the US as well as curbing the number of people sentenced to time BUT this sentence is ridiculous and incredibly unfair to people being sentenced to much longer sentences for doing much less harm. The ring leader got convicted of forced labor as if he did this to one person and not 600. In another words under Federal Sentencing guidelines somebody who committed forced labor on 1 person will receive this same sentence. But again, the real joke is the lack of restitution to the victims and the state and letting these scum keep their illegal profits which I doubt they paid any tax on either.

Millions upon millions for 600 farm workers? I need to figure out the strategy of that farm.

I've noticed on forums like this that the layman usually comes up with the harshest punishment imaginable for most crimes. It actually makes me glad that that there are lawmakers, judges, etc. who see the right path and come up with fairer sentences.

I don't think the average person has a concept of what even a day in prison is like. We're talking about regular people who aren't hardened ending up sobbing like a little girl after day one. Most criminals go into jail as dangerous people and come out worse. And, that's not even touching on the "Bubba" effect, know what I mean?

I think if somebody gets 3, 4, or 5 years in one of these places they can easily come out very wrecked. And, don't forget that many of these people can't get work after leaving prison and they end up right back in there.

It's a pretty nasty thing to get sentenced like that, nasty enough that many people feel that it should be different b/c the harshness of it doesn't seem to do anybody any good, only harm.

Think about it.

Agreed.

With it being so hard to get a dam_n Visa for most Thais to go to the USA, it amazes me these people were able to get 600 Thais over there to exploit. I don't even think a farming company in Texas, Arizona or California could work this out for Mexican workers just across the border.

Probably with the help of corrupt US officials administering the "federal agricultural guest worker program". Hope that scum get the max.

This is a silly statement. US officials have much more lucrative opportunities than facilitating a 600 person farm program illegally. No doubt loopholes exist that allow bad people to scam a system set up in good conscience. Similar to the au pair program, consistently used in the same light.

I think they deserve that much for each and every one of the 600. Think of the lives of innocent people that got messed up for their individual greed as well as all the others doing the same thing and 'living good' at the expense of all those who mortgaged their land and home for an opportunith to better themselves, and haven't been caught and are still messing up lives (and living the "hi so" lifestyle).

I met my Thai wife of 15 years in Los Angeles working in a sweat-shop there and it got busted just after the 'infamous' El Monte sweat-shop got busted - fortunately for her she was spending the night with me at the time of the bust.

That 4 years is about all that the El Monte shop owners got as well as her bosses. After being given credit for 'time served awaiting trial' They only had a short time to serve after sentencing. You can just imagine how anxious they were to plead guilty when offered such light sentenses. And the prosecution didn't have to lift a finger or get up off their fat/lazy taxpayer paid butts. Does anyone out there want to defend our American Legal System?????????? What is the deterrent to violate the law for personal gain??????????? There is none!!!!!!!!!

4-5 years in an American prison is a pretty hefty fine, sir. Have you ever met anyone whose served more than a month in prison? Prison, not jail.

I will be very happy to see him back.

This government has done nothing for us. I think that corruption is the number 1 problem here from small time street vendors right up to Government officials and Army allowing drugs to come into my country. When they let them in, they get richer. The way to stop or at least begin to stop corruptin in Thailand is to give good salaries and so people can live good life. This way there will be less chance of corruptions. When my childrens come from University they can only get low paying jobs. If children can finish University and get a good job that give them enough money to live a decent life then it will help their journy in life to take the middle path and go away from direction of corruption.

I am 50 year Thai and think government must start with:

1. Education at International standards for ALL Thai. Not only rich. English language must be good.
2. Good health care for ALL Thai people.
3. Thailand MUST have good internet if we want to compete Internationally.
4. Labor standards to be set so people can be to make good money for future
5. Stop corruption in Thailand at the same time as raising salaries.
6. Stop drugs here and even if people need to die. The drug dealers will know a law and if continue then they know have death penalty.
7. Have better anf fast system set up to help victoms of disasters because it seems to happen more these days.
8. Make peace with our neighbours even if it mean to give temple rights away in Cambodia and allow access for tourist.

I also have many foreign friend who complain about the visa rules etc so maybe if government can take the fee for visas and apply it direct to Education or war on drugs then the foreigner can feel good about where the visa money goes.

I know in the world all government have corruption but when Thaksin was our PM he did not hide it like many other governments. I can accept this. Maybe if Abhisit have more money and experience he could have done the good job but it is proved that he did not and he have his chance already.

To give an idea of my persepctive: I have been married to a Thai for 10 years. She is from Isaan, a very poor village. I live and work in Bangkok, and receive a salary comapred to a western salary. On this salary, I am very comfortable and compared to most of the country, I would be consdiered "rich". I am not an authority on anything, but I do know a LITTLE bit about what I am talking about.

Your suggestion that raising salaries would reduce corruption is a laudable one, however I believe it is somewhat naive. Moreover, raising everyones salary (from the Isaan guy working on a building site, to the 7-11 girl, to the uni-grad) will raise the base price of living, and everything will go up with. Many international companies choose to operate in Thailand because the country has sufficient infastructure to be effective, and low enough labour costs to be economical.

I have spent plenty of time in Isaan, where the allegedly disenfranchised poor come from. The sit around, all day, doing nothing, wiating for a handout...... bums, the lot of them. They have ample oportunity to work, but choose not too, deciding instead to complain and moan about the rich people in Bangkok. Yes, there are lots of rich people in bangkok - but there are lots of rich people in London, Paris, and New York too. I have quite a good job, and make good money...... because I had a good education...... because my parents worked hard to give it to me (they are not uni-grads)...... and their parents worked hard to put them through school so they could get decent jobs...... and their parents fought in World War II and / or emigrated leaving their family and friends behind so they could better provide for their off spring. Moreover, the education and social systmes in my home country exsit because of the taxes paid by my productive fmaily, not from the wasters that windge and bitch...... so, because of the efforts of 3 or 4 generations, I have now reached a point where I could be called "sucessful" ...... no one "gave" it to me, it was earned - my sucess is te cumulative effort of my families efforts; but there are people out there that think I should now share my pie with others, who can't be bother to bake their own?

So, the so called "poor people" who will not get off their ass and work their way out of poverty need to start pulling their weight. From the fruit of hard labour there will be rewards. Our maid is a young lady from Isaan - we emplyed her because her english is quite good and she is quite intelligent, capable of following instructions...... this is because her mother (mother of 4, husband dead) has gone her entire life, doing without, and making sure her kid finsihed school..... unlike most of the families who work so they can buy another motorbike that will get crashed when the husband / son gets out of his mind on some cheap crappy loas whiskey. So, the girl is a "maid", so no big achievement there right? WRONG - she is earning money instead of complaining about having none.

I honestly believe there is quite a fair share of equity in Thailand - sure there are people with ill-gotten gains..... but it is naive to think that it doesn't go on in every country in the world - just some are better at hiding it.

I am coming from a country where guys with basic trade skills earn as much as universtiy graduates. There is no equity in that. Office workers here in Bangkok earn a lot more money that the national average. Enough to have a nice but modest home, a reliable car, an occasional holiday, etc..... in otherwords, a normal life on par with every other developed country in the World. They are not wealthy, but unless they work hard on top of their qualifications, then why whould they be.. Simply having a degree is not, and should not be a pass to wealth - yes it opens the door, but the individual has to walk through it. Everyone cannot have a Fortuner or Accord..... much less a Merc. Everyone thinks that they are entitled to the better things in life, and no one wants to think of themselves as average ..... but until you prove yourself as above average, then why should you get paid more for it? So I say, continue to reward those who have worked hard and let nature take its course. My fmaily worked hard over several generations to help me get to where I am today - it is now my duty to continue that tradition, and if my child fails in life it will be my fault for not proving for them, not raising them correctly, etc...... no one elses.

This is why I admire the much loathed Isaan bar girls, and the dodgy taxi-bike drivers, and so on..... while people are ridiculing them, do they ever stop to think that these people are doing the best they can to get on in life - and for the most part they do...... So that their kids don't have to do the same thing......

Married a bar girl, did you?

I will be very happy to see him back.

This government has done nothing for us. I think that corruption is the number 1 problem here from small time street vendors right up to Government officials and Army allowing drugs to come into my country. When they let them in, they get richer. The way to stop or at least begin to stop corruptin in Thailand is to give good salaries and so people can live good life. This way there will be less chance of corruptions. When my childrens come from University they can only get low paying jobs. If children can finish University and get a good job that give them enough money to live a decent life then it will help their journy in life to take the middle path and go away from direction of corruption.

I am 50 year Thai and think government must start with:

1. Education at International standards for ALL Thai. Not only rich. English language must be good.
2. Good health care for ALL Thai people.
3. Thailand MUST have good internet if we want to compete Internationally.
4. Labor standards to be set so people can be to make good money for future
5. Stop corruption in Thailand at the same time as raising salaries.
6. Stop drugs here and even if people need to die. The drug dealers will know a law and if continue then they know have death penalty.
7. Have better anf fast system set up to help victoms of disasters because it seems to happen more these days.
8. Make peace with our neighbours even if it mean to give temple rights away in Cambodia and allow access for tourist.

I also have many foreign friend who complain about the visa rules etc so maybe if government can take the fee for visas and apply it direct to Education or war on drugs then the foreigner can feel good about where the visa money goes.

I know in the world all government have corruption but when Thaksin was our PM he did not hide it like many other governments. I can accept this. Maybe if Abhisit have more money and experience he could have done the good job but it is proved that he did not and he have his chance already.

It's good to see that 50-year-old Thais educated enough to have a perfect command of English are empassioned enough about Thai politics to conclusively put down their political thoughts on a first-ever Thavisa post along with a series of suggestions to fix Thailand's problems. Did you know that your bullet points are almost exactly Thaksin's own ideas, word for word? I can see why you would vote for him.

But, hang on, you're saying that corruption is bad, and then you're saying that Thaksin was nice and open about it. You want to get rid of corruption but want the most corrupt guy at the head of your country? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. You talk about drugs and corruption, referencing the army and government. But Thaksin oversaw this whole operation, and he didn't want to change it back then - he just wanted his share. Some might argue that he was kicked out because he wanted more than his share.

And I agree, drug dealers are the scum of the earth. They are all murderers, pimps and rapists and they all deserve to die; it's a myth that the network of drug dealing is full of victims of social circumstances. And those drug mules in particular should be subject to death by genital electrocution. But, hang on, the most recent investigation - you know, the one first shelved by Thaksin and then by the Samak administration - show that less than half of the people killed had any ties whatsoever with the drug industry. Would a collateral damage rate of 60%+ be acceptable to you in the next war on drugs?

You make a lot of interesting points in your post, much like the Quadrangled Prophet himself, but really no indication of how it's going to be executed.

Thank you for kind words on my English. I was fortunate.

I only said that every politition in world is corrupt and we all know this but with Thaksin he did not try and hide it like others have. I would prefer to know how I am being cheeted so I can dicide how to deal with it. In another countries with so called educated polititions they are fighting wars and they have no money in their budget but still interfear with other countries politics. These are governments that hide the corruption from the people. When we have Thaksin before he would tell us "Ok I am going to cheet you now and give you money for your vote" and we can make decision on this basis. He did not hide his corruption like the now government by blocking TV stations, radios and news.

With his war on drugs there is no Thai person who enjoy to see some people die if they do not deserve it but it is a war that is needed and maybe he learn from his past mistake. If you touch the fire you will not touch again. Yes when he investigate he tell the truth about many people who die were innocent. Another government would hide this fact. If you ask me about will 60%+ be acceptable in next war I can only say that I never want to see any percent of the innocent Thai people die but unfortunatly yes always have inncocent casualties in any war. If I have to die to save my childrens and my grandchildrens future to not have the drugs I cann accept that.

Another person here say that Thailand is the biggest producer of ganja in the world but he is very wrong. It grows more in Columbia and another countries I think and we never have the problem with people that have the ganja. It is a modern day drug problem with the drugs that make children crazy like a mefanfetime .... I think you know the word and the yaba and ice and these very bad drugs.

Only my opinion that all Thai want good government and not corruption but I think we cannot ever have a no corruption government because noone have anywhere. But what choice do we have for vote a new government? If have good choice maybe can change but here not ike another countries. We have few choices here and Thaksin have money and experience and maybe can change things because other country like Cambodia he know and can help this situation and he repect from another countries like Middle East that we need the business from. He is a very good business man and when he was my priminister he can have the business with many countries because they respect him. They dont care he corrupt or not. They only care he good for business or not.

< Comments removed. >

Seriously? Some members think these comments are educated?

I can't tell if you are intentionally not understanding or just too simple-minded.

Personal insults aside (I won't stoop to your level) he still hasn't provided proof of his claims that "red-shirt gangs are frightening Democrats MPs from campaigning upcountry).

We wait for the proof as asked for in a previous post.

Perhaps if none is provided his post can be removed as misinformation?

Wasn't an insult. You just don't seem to understand what he is saying.

He's obviously taking a bit of the p*ss out of jatuporn for reading the sky. That is the only source of his information. Makes him an equal of the politician. Get it?

Got up at 7 this morning and took the motosai to the nearby 7 to pick up some coffee. A villain who looked to be in the region of 5 years old ran up with a plastic cup and threw the contents in my face (well ...) just when I'd parked. He then ran away laughing hysterically to get some more ammunition and then ambushed me as I came out after making my purchase. Got dunked again (well ...) which caused the same smile on the little buggers face and that point I went back in to 7 and bought him a mid size soaker which I handed over after being soeaked (well ...) for the third time. At first he didn't realise I actually wanted to give him the soaker, he looked more like I was trying to perform some sort of scam or similar, but after a while he realised he had just been given a proper weapon and ran of to fill it up. I should have gone home but drove around for 5 minutes and then went back to pass his stakeout one more time - and the little bugger jumped out from his hideout. This time he actually got me good. HUGE smile on the little guys face and without knowing it he made my day too.

Not everything is bad with Songkran.

Seems like every Songkran I experience something that fills me with emotion daily. Something beautiful about the holiday to me. And +1 to the good emotions. Thanks for that!

The other side of the coin is red-shirt gangs (said like this on purpose!) frightening Democrats MPs from campaigning upcountry.

When has that happened during the run up to a general election? Links appreciated, thanks in advance.

You removed too much of my post you quote otherwise you could still see my source of information:

"Like k. Jatuporn I have looked at the sky and therefor can claim"

What source of information?

Your post is unintelligible.

Still waiting on those links confirming your assertions as stated above.

Thanks.

I can't tell if you are intentionally not understanding or just too simple-minded.

I've been to La Tomatina in Spain and its great, but old people usually stay indoors out of the mayhem, if not, they're fair game, old Farangs that venture out during Songkhran are also fair game.

And don't come out with how things should be, look at how things actually ARE !!! If you don't like it, do something about it, but for Christ sake stop F'ing moaning !!!!

Can you imagine a meeting of ThaiVisa members being a fun gathering ? LOL, the way this forum is with all the complaining it would be the last place I would want to be, a load of old miserable men wondering why Thailand doesn't conform to their specifications, keep all the things they like but stop everything else, yeah right, that's why they came to Thailand in the first place, cos it was the same as back home ! Haha. ( Thais would be as Miserable as you if it was like Back Home !!!! )

Euthanasia should never be against the law, cos if getting old makes you so miserable, I don't wanna ever get old.

Can all the moaners imagine moaning about Songkhran when they were young ?

Spooky.

Amen, MrsMills! Whiners (a.k.a. dickheads) not allowed.

I, too, agree wholeheartedly.

You were questioning the reports. I know the person not because I am an associate because I was the journalist who wrote the original story and went to see him to find out what he was doing at the dump, what he was doing 'off duty' and what his thoughts were. As a result of the story other victims got in touch.

He is guilty as charged in relation to the previous offences as for the current charges they have still to be proven. But what I do know is that this man should not let loose on his own children's charity.

What original story ... can you provide a link?

When you say as a result of your story "other' victims got in touch ... are you saying other than the one where he was convicted back home and served his time?

You say guilty as charged in previous offences. This is plural ... was there more than one offence he was convicted?

I am no up on this full story but after reading the OP I would have bet the man was guilty. Now you have me thinking that your "original" report may have caused people seeking money to accuse a man because of something he did in the past.

Please share the link to your "original" story. I would like to know if I am misunderstanding something.

I found your original article ... http://www.andrew-dr...-dump-children/

I'm sorry to say that I now question whether this man has done anything wrong in Cambodia. I also find you as a reporter lacking all credibility. How in the world can you quote him (in quotes) saying:

"My two grown up sons have disowned me. They did not like the fact that my girlfriends were younger than theirs. Who cares? It's their loss. But I know lots of people are watching me so I am very careful about being seen with young girls."

and then go on to make a note after your report to say you checked the tape and he didn't actually say this because he only has 1 son and 1 daughter and the son has disowned him.

Your original story is crap and was simply a witch hunt against a man where the was NO proof at all he was doing anything wrong and a man who paid his debt for his crime. I hope for your sake he is guilty and it was not your original report that caused people to try to financially exploit this man because of a past mistake he has paid for.

I always correct if I find a mistake in an original report. If its a witchhunt then u need also to blame, CEOP, the Cambodian Police, other charities in the area and APLE.

Who was financially exploiting this guy? He was the one seeking funds.

What he was doing with those funds is another story.

As for the current charges, they are down to people in Phnom Penh, not I but I am sure they have a strong basis.

Yes I was contacted by another victim in the UK. She brought charges too but on condition that Fletcher pleaded guilty to the original offences, the other offences were dropped. Its known as a plea bargain and happens often.

For a journalist you are lacking in communication skills. " She brought charges too but on condition that Fletcher pleaded guilty to the original offences, the other offences were dropped." Makes no sense. Maybe you are just too close to the story and assume everyone else knows all the details you do. Again, you're a journalist?

Finally, the question regarding your comment, "He is guilty as charged in relation to the previous offences as for the current charges they have still to be proven." has yet to be answered. You say he is guilty as charged for previous offences. Are all these offences related to the single girl, or different girls. If different girls, has he been convicted by a court for any offences against the different girls or is this statement subjective on your part.

Subjectivity isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is, after all, a forum for just that. But you seem to be confusing your roles as message board commentator and journalist.

Dear oh dear, was I leaping to his defence, I was simply asking for facts. So you not only know the man but one of his victims in the UK. It seems he has a large circle of associates. Well that settles it then, guilty as charged. If the messengers thought I was attacking them my sincere apologies.

You were questioning the reports. I know the person not because I am an associate because I was the journalist who wrote the original story and went to see him to find out what he was doing at the dump, what he was doing 'off duty' and what his thoughts were. As a result of the story other victims got in touch.

He is guilty as charged in relation to the previous offences as for the current charges they have still to be proven. But what I do know is that this man should not let loose on his own children's charity.

You knew him after this all was spoken about on KR440 and then u jumped in on the story, You did not dig up any facts on the matter so please admit it. U didn't interview any poeple that really knew him but based most of ur report on heresay, (although you did get some of it right). He never had a legally run registered charity and it was all done unoffically.

I do agree he should not be around children but to many people that have been done in (and you love to report of them) have been set up by local NGO's so they can drum up more funds to justyify their existance in Cambodia. I am NOT defending him but am defending someones right to a fair trail and not be done up by the press.

Ever hear the term "Yellow Journalism" Why not write something positive. There are plnety of good things about Cambodia

The original tip came from 440 from somebody with good intentions who cared. I have acknowledged this many times. As nobody in Cambodia was doing anything about it I was commissioned to do it. None of the report was hearsay. I went to speak to all the people concerned. I have never stated he was running a 'legal charity' as clearly he was not.

Call it what you like. I will have no hesitation in doing it again. I do crime. I'm not working for the Cambodian tourism authority.

Andrew Drummond does crime! Your heard it here first. Maybe I should go into journalism.

How stupid can you get!

Young "low quality" backpack tourists who have had a wonderful experience in Thailand talk about it to parents and friends, and debunk the myths of Thailand being a dangerous third world country. Who do you think "discovered" what are now high-end island resorts, etc! In addition, many of these come back again in a few years with a lot more cash. Talk about penny-wise and pound-foolish. Thailand should be encouraging these visitors.

As a former backpacker turned wealthy tourist who returns often, I agree completely.

Have been living in Thailand for nearly 24 years now.

Have seen the reputation of us " farangs" seen plummeting ever since.

OP did get of without having to pay a fine whilst being on the wrong side of the law for 2 instances, i.e. no driving license and driving shirtless. .

Still he finds reason to try and ridicule Thai society.

What more can I say ?

Yermanee

The reputation of farangs has been plummeting ever since your arrival?

When I first came to Thailand 15 years ago, Thais were smiling, happy go-lucky people, who were always eager to help and welcome you and share what they had with you. Thais seemed special and magical people. I don't really want to say how I find alot of Thais now; it would not be polite to say what I experience. I think you probably know alot of them are no longer like what I describe in my first sentence.

So it took you 15 years to go through the stages of culture shock?

People are people. Everywhere you go.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

Personally I excuse myself with the following,

lack of western PC BS and crap such as affirmitive action,

personal freedom, no big brother knows better nanny state a la Euro socialism,

I find the (lack of) income tax most favourable.

Cant talk for others but the above does it for me.

Agreed. Freedom from, or freedom to. Take your pick. If you are afraid of the freedom of others there is a warm, cozy place for you in the U.S.

I agree with comments that describe Thailand as deeply flawed, third world and hypocritical. Also, it is embarrassing to confess to being based there.

I too have cut my time here, preferring to travel in Europe for up to 5 months each year. I find that being amongst a civilised culture, for example France, soothes my soul. Without the infusion of good taste, architecture, museums, art galleries, a worthy film genre and incisive quality newspapers, I would find it impossible to spend any time in Thailand.

Even now, having returned from my latest trip to Spain, I find Thailand to offer little more than the same confinement known to prisoners. I feel I am treading water waiting to escape. Consequently, I too am planning the final departure. It will be Thailand's loss as I spend considerably but even that seems to be resented, and I live upcountry.

Bangkok was where I worked. So too was Pattaya, which appalled me to such an extent that I suggested that our whole SE Asia operation be relocated from the Eastern Seeboard. This has been accepted and comes into effect from 2012. It means a loss of over 400 jobs to Thailand but when faced with entertaining clients in Pattaya, and losing accounts as a result, there is little choice left.

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Sorry. But this scene is not acceptable at home. Neither is it acceptable here; to anyone in touch with the real world, a place in it and their real life. Not the one they have currently invented.

But this draws parrallels with the view that celebrity needs to be protected from its candy floss frothy self. If, in the face of an abortion story that is disgustingly shocking beyond the stored foetuses; beyond the corrupt officials; beyond the illegal acts of the medical profession; beyond the 8 month terminations; beyond the enslavement of the surviving babies.... if all the media can see is the need to keep celebrity involvement secret, then Thailand is without hope.

Sadly it has been for decades. It is only as a visitor that one can see this and have something far better to compare and contrast it with.

The one line posters and other totally irresponsible persons who fail to grasp any meaning or show any original insight or thought or solution are to be dismissed as the trash that they are. Trash. Drawn to Thailand because it offers exile for the failed, the amoral, the criminal, the malcontent.

Anyone who retires here must be questionable. It is simply not an acceptable place to stay.

In conclusion it is inevitable that Thailand is best left to itself. That is the greatest harm that we can do it. So be it. Ironically, that is the view of the xenophobic Thais because that is what they are told to think; to believe, by the Bangkok elite that wish to maintain their 98% staus quo. More un-original thought due to a lack of education and opportunity.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

Sounds like you've only seen tourist areas. Even in Pattaya there are real, normal people. True Thais. Get over yourself.

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It is a shame that this guy was setup by the Thai and US authoraties in a sting opperation. Ok so maybe he took the bait, but if some people offered you millions to do a deal could you resist. Its a load of BS. About time the US took care of the thugs in it's own country rather tan trying to set up foreign nationals, in foeriegn countries.

How many millions was the Thai government offered to allow the extradition? The whole thing stinks.

Geez, were you born naive, or is it an acquired attribute from the Book of Winnie the Pooh and Hot Chocolate??? How else would go about nabbing someone as crafty and shrewd as Bout???

If the US were so sure thay have a case against this guy then they should have gone through an international agency like interpol to get this guy. Though frankly it isn't about whether this guy is guilty or not! it's about the way the US conducts itself on the world stage, Frankly even Freinds of the US ar fed up with thier anticts.

Another classic case is the US's attempt to extradite a UK citizen for hacking into US defence computers while looking for information on UFO's. The guy is slightly mentaly disturbed, but even so Why doesn't the US have him trieds in the UK? which I think I'm right in saying was offered by the UK, but turned down by the US.

You Yanks &lt;deleted&gt; up your own country and think it's cool to do they same in other countries, using lies, deceit, and offers of dollars to get what you want.

Guessing you're a not so bright brit who's forgotten his own country's history.