crowbait

These arguments about who started it and who commits the worst atrocities are childish, cloddish and ultimately sterile as none of you will believe a single word of each other's rhetoric. Sometimes in order to move forward, you have to forgive the past (not forget, it would be unthinkable to forget the suffering, heroism and deaths but to forgive them in order to end the hatred).

War mongers and arms merchants profit from all of this conflict, do you really want to see their riches increase?

Interesting to consider the levels of civilization Egypt achieved through its history under both the Pharaohs as opposed to Mohammadism.

Sorry but you are ignoring the great flowering of Islamic culture under the Fatamid, Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates mostly centred in Egypt but extending as far as Pakistan in the East and Spain in the west. While the Western world descended into the dark ages, the caliphates supported huge advances in Islamic art, poetry, philosophy, mathematics, science, astronomy etc.

You see what's happening in the USA is similar to what happened in the UK's last election where Cameron's Conservatives did not so much win as Milliband's Labour lost. It was an election of the least bad!!!

God help both of us!

Well there has certainly been some pretty emphatic rhetoric on this topic so far........all of which has, I believe, avoided the main issue. Israelis are not going to achieve a "final solution" by wiping out the Palestinian Arabs nor are the Arab states going to achieve a similar "final solution" by pushing the Israelis into the sea.

Impasse.

Peace has to break out and it will not be brought about with tanks, machine guns and air strikes nor with suicide bombs, car bombs and stabbings.

Far, far too many children have died and the hatred on each side goes deeper with every death. It has to stop! There has to be a way!

Talk about finding a way for heaven's sake and not about perpetuating the fighting.

We all know that the Romans beat Israel and eventually kicked them out - then the Arabs beat the Romans (Byzantines) - the the Turks beat the Arabs who were, in turn beaten by the allies who then let the Zionists in. Most of Europe, Russia and the USA bear some responsibility for this later history and while this is relevant, it has to be the Israelis and the Palestinians who agree to stop killing each other.

May it happen soon...........

This old chestnut again

"The guys a prize idiot for leaving a loaded gun where a 4 year old could access it, Guns are not to blame only the idiots with them."

Idiots indeed so why would you give them access to guns in the first place?

Those who are pro guns will always make excuses for the overwhelming amount of gun violence in the US. We can all come up with examples for whatever argument we are trying to promote. The reality is the USA will continue it's gun obsession no matter how many young and innocent people are killed.

Idiots? You decide...

HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one is supporting gun violence in the US. What they are supporting is the right to have the means to protect themselves against the very bad people that want to hurt them.

No amount of gun laws will stop the bad people obtaining guns.

That is a ridiculous and utterly wrong statement!

This weekend marks the 20th anniversary of the "Dunblane Massacre" where a lone gunman opened up with a number of handguns in a Scottish primary school killing many. The outrage at this attack bought about the legislation that banned the ownership of all handguns (some small calibre rifles and sporting guns are permitted but under strict licence). These are amongst the most stringent gun laws in the world but they are very, very effective. Criminals found in possession of a working firearm face a possible life sentence.

As a result, crimes involving firearms are uncommon to the point where even the discharge of a gun in a public place gets a mention on national news.

The poor old USA has a long way to go before it learns this lesson.

The use of torture is illegal by international law. It's use by a nation state is tantamount to a war crime. Beside that, the country whose people you use torture on are going to hate you really badly and are therefore going to seek revenge, thus perpetuating the terrorism. The only two ways out of this are genocide or trying to reach an agreement. How likely is that while your torturing their children?

In the meantime, you grow more monstrous and more isolated as a nation. But then, the good ole US of A doesn't need to give a damn about world opinion, does it?

Then I fear you are no better than the "Islamist terrorist scum" you are seeking to prevent and giving them more excuse (should they need it) to hate you and your culture.

There are some real inhuman monsters posting on this subject. No sane member of a civilised society could ever propound the use of torture under any circumstances! I bet none of these people have ever seen a hand where the fingernails have been ripped out or a foot crippled with wedges or genitals scarred with electrical burns. I could go on. You cannot have a quiet intellectual conversation on the benefits or demerits of torture, the very idea of violently restraining and continually assaulting another human until they are screaming in agony should make any normal individual utterly nauseated.

Come on, 'fess up, could you tie someone up and then beat them half to death or waterboard them until they are half strangled, P***ING themselves in fear and shame because if you couldn't, how could you agree that your government should do it on your behalf?

I had not seen this video before, nor the clips. It makes me wish he did not reprimand Fox for Fox's language. Instead, I applaud Trump to use more of the visceral language that percolates in all Americans now daily. youtube search "Origin of the word F--- ."

I have no objection to the concern regarding the targeting of civilians, discussion on the conduct of war, etc., but its all made pointless while a pass is given to the current executive who actually does murder people, Americans, civilians, children, women, wedding goers, mourners, schools, hospitals, etc. How is it possible to have any discussion on those who say they would do this, or that, before first stopping the hemorrhaging of those who really are murdering human beings- Obama.

Arab allies, muslim allies, honest people, muslim people, non muslim people, most... have rarely seen examples where terrorists operated in a total vacuum without local aid and abetting. Don't like that fact? Its an overwhelming, terrifying reality. Islamic jihadist are almost always the tip of a spear. While the discussion should be had, positions staked out and argued for and against such policies, doing it while Obama murders people around the world in much the same way is simply degrading to the intellect.

Ah, we've got one. We have always known that a considerable percentage of the US populace were a bit unhinged but with the Trumpetings going on from the Republicans and the Clinterings from the Democrats, it's become obvious that there are many many Americans who are howling at the moon. When the abandonment of the Geneva convention is openly propounded and racism, sexism and torture promoted by politicians who are cheered off the stage by their supporters instead of being locked up by the authorities, I fear for America.

You really should try to be accurate, what I said was I found your your diatribe in defence of the indefensible so predictable it was utterly boring. Please present any evidence you can find to show that the USA's criminal punishment regimes have any deterrent effect on the crime rate.

There you go with the blood pressure thing again trotting out the same-old, tired-old hang 'em, shoot 'em, flog 'em rhetoric that is so boring. The USA imprisons huge numbers and hands down large numbers of death sentences without seeming to affect crime rates. Doesn't that strike you that it's time to consider alternatives?

Imprison a man for 24 years under sentence of death and then take him out and judicially murder him! I'm sure that is a good basic definition of a cruel and unnatural punishment if ever there was one.
Americans certainly understand the meaning of public vengeance which in reality belongs to the Lord (according to the Bible of the Christian religion they profess to follow as a nation).[/quote


Pretty good job loading that up with the usual nonsense. Bleeding hearts insist on allowing a condemned monster every conceivable delay and legal obstruction, and then get all weepy about how long the scumbag spends on death row. And then there's this constant squealing over any public expression of religion whatsoever, but whenever execution time rolls around, it's suddenly a Christian country again. Too funny. You really do need to work on your game, which is unbelievably lame.

Oh and you think the imprisonment terminating in lethal injection is cruel & unusual? Really? I'll never understand the indecency of sympathizing with the hideously vicious murderers in these cases and complete disregard for the victims. How can anyone read the details of the CRIME that was committed, and then complain that jail & the lethal injection were what was "cruel & unusual"!!! Just bizarre!

Calm down, old son. Your blood pressure will go through the roof. Firstly, I am not in sympathy with the convicted ( although he is probably not the same person he was 25 years ago - I certainly am not). Secondly, I do indeed have the greatest regard for the victim's who are probably realising (as I have) that vengeance does not help feelings of grief.
My opposition to the death penalty is based on the effect it has on society, debasing human life and degrading values such as charity, forgiveness and empathy for the human condition. Study after study have shown that capital punishment has absolutely no deterrent effect and that it's only purpose is to serve as public vengeance - not a nice place for a (so called) civilised society to be in.

Many mass murders are carried out by knives, swords, and machetes...maybe if there were less of these around...we would all be more safe...

Same logic for many common household products...

If people have a will to kill...they will find the means to do so...the gun just happens to be the weapon of choice for many nut cases...

Ban nut cases...not guns...

It has to be supremely silly to keep defending the indefensible.

By all means try and ban nut cases (if you can identify them before they go postal) in the mean time, why not ban guns - it will, over time, provide a measure of safety..

In the UK we currently have a problem with some criminals obtaining antique guns to commit firearm crimes. These guns are generally described as "lethal to both user and victim" because of their age and because many are of obsolete calibres with ammunition over 40 years old. It's a problem but not a big one because every time a pistol is discharged, it makes the national TV news. I mention this because I believe it shows that because firearms are so difficult and expensive to get hold of (not to mention entirely illegal - 10 years to life for possession) that criminals are having to resort to using dangerous antiques.

I have read all the posts on this topic with great interest and I would like, as an outsider to every aspect of the topic, to make the following observations.

Some people have the weirdest understanding of history.

Some people have the weirdest understanding of Christianity.

Some people have the weirdest understanding of democracy.

Isn't this a funny old world.

Imprison a man for 24 years under sentence of death and then take him out and judicially murder him! I'm sure that is a good basic definition of a cruel and unnatural punishment if ever there was one.

Americans certainly understand the meaning of public vengeance which in reality belongs to the Lord (according to the Bible of the Christian religion they profess to follow as a nation).

It is very sad that two law officers had to die. It is very sad that school children had to witness it. It would not have happened if the perpetrator had no gun.

Guns don't kill people but people with guns kill people far too easily and far too quickly.

I always think it sad when judicial punishment becomes judicial vengeance. The function of the legal system in a civilised society is to protect the populace, punish the guilty and redeem the criminal. Not much hope of redemption here it would seem

I also am British and opposed to the death penalty, not because I feel sorry for the convicted (which I don't) nor because I am indifferent to the suffering of the victim's family (which I am not) but because I feel desperately sorry for a society that supports the judicial taking of a human life which is against every tenet of civilised behaviour.

PS The USA calls itself a Christian society. Please tell me where in the New Testament it says it is OK to kill someone if twelve good men and true and all the rest of the judicial panoply say it is!

It may be but it was published by the BBC (and gained by them from official US stats).

I made no implication that these were all murders, in fact I believe many were accidental. To state most were suicide would attribute alarmingly lemming-like qualities to the American population. The whole point is fewer guns equals fewer gun deaths.

1) My opinion yes, also a legally accepted argument (at least here in the UK)

2) That argument is entirely specious. All deaths can be carried out by other means. The context is about gun deaths.

3) Again I think you are missing the point. The more guns are removed from circulation, the fewer gun deaths will occur.

Three quick points:

1) Fun (in the handgun context) is not a valid reason.

2) 33,000 gun deaths in a year is not a tiny, tiny fraction.

3) If there are no legal guns, it makes it much more difficult for criminals to acquire them.

Thank you for being polite though.

Yup know, it's a funny thing, but most of the inhabitants of Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield etc are English just as I am. They may have immigration in their recent history but then if we go back a bit further then so do I and many others. England is not swamped with immigrants but is certainly enriched both culturally and financially by them.

Anyway, I have lived all my life with God Save the Queen and see no reason to change it.

I just wish that some intelligent American would explain why they should have a handgun.

I must be very simple but isn't it a truism that if you have no guns, people can't get shot?

Sorry but can't make this. However, I hope you all have a grand time and I will frequent the bar in January when I'm next in Bangkok.

Loved the videos....we were in Chiang Mai in February and have meny happy memories. Thanks for posting