tothemark

Hi Fezzy,

North of Nong Khai, almost on the banks of the Mekong, jet ski country, lol

Used to be in Lampang for a while, just north of you so know your area a bit, love the hills there, sure miss them in these flatlands.

GL

Hey Fezzy, dont get giddy, the wife wont let you do any of those either, unless of course it has an Isuzu badge on the front. lol

What part of Los are you from, cos i want a go in it if you ever do ?

Ken, the only way we will see a Unimog in Los is if the UN does a peace keeping visit and leaves some behind,

Fezzy, I just love that !!! - straight out of Mad Max and the Thunderdrome ...

Ken, this is what the Fil had in mind . Too dam_n boring for my liking and prone to easily losing an arm.

Ken, very nice, probably wont carry the weight i want to and will be more than i want to pay lol.

I had toyed with the idea of doing a conversion on a pick up, buying a well used Hi jet and replacing the engine with a kubota diesel 14hp - circa 20-30k for the engine and 40-60 for the hi jet, which funnily enough may even be documented for the road..

Only one problem, im not there to do the work... But I do fancy having a punt at it

Haha Fezzy luv the first pic and your aptly named jpeg file.

Thanks for your answers guys.

Watersedge, you could be right, start from scratch with a 20,000 kubota engine, but thats a lot of work. Some jokers in Loei will make the drive train and frame minus the engine for 60,000, <deleted>, i could build it for a fifth of that.

I fancy the idea of a three wheeler www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C124741

Yeah, does seem high, check with your local agricultural shop to see their price. Ours were left by the previous owner so they cant have been worth much !

There are many Thais who have given up doing mats, just ask around and you might fall on some second hand ones, we paid 16,000 for a kneeder fyi.

I am considering using an iron buffalo on the rubber farm, for trailering purposes between the trees and small scale ploughing on border land. The problem being that long handles on an iron buffalo cannot manoeuvre around closely packed trees

In order to make it work as a universal machine (and not have to buy two different machines) for my purposes i would need to change the steering from long handle to either steering wheel or small handlebar steering. My immediate thought would be to do this by converting the steering to chain drive via the use of one larger and one smaller sprocket to give it the correct ratio. To maintain balance of the tak tak i would have to fabricate a small ride on twin wheel step board welded to the tak taks frame that you could also attach a small trailer or other implement too.

We do have a relation that has done something similar which gave me the idea, although i havent seen it ! but his wife wont let him fabricate it for us, the joys of family strife, lol

I have seen the chain drive conversion on off road race cars many times in the past, it basically converts the rack to a quick rack and would be interested to know if anyone has seen any other fabrications in Los of the type im waffling about on iron buffalo tak taks to get round this steering issue ?

Hi Claus,

Yeah they do all the cutting in that price but leave you the stumps and the root system

Your better off uploading a photo of the trees and land, it might not just be the lack of fertiliser that's the reason for the lack of growth.

The deed is in my wife's name, as a way to support his children. But it is in the area where he has several other farms, so I guess he hopes that we sometimes will go and look after their farms, since we probably have to check up on our own anyway. I don't know the type of land title, but I'll try to see if my wife knows. Again, we know very little of this whole thing, and I hoped to get some input from this forum.

What is the difference between the various land titles?

There are differences as to ownership rules for Thais for various (weaker) land titles. Some titles can only be owned by Thai proletariat and on a few rare occasions land has been "reassigned" if the rules are broken.

Your wife owns the land and my understanding is that your interested in the idea of farming but not really committed to it as a complete lifestyle change. Coupled with the fact that both you and your family have no experience in rubber, I would give you the following advice to keep your sanity and no its not to sell,

In some instances where you have an absentee landowner, i have seen the Thais operate two alternate ways of having their farms "managed" :

1. Managing agent.

There are some farms that allow the farm to be managed by an agent who obtains a % of the income. Usually you will find that the agent will be managing three or more farms in the area, organising everything from staff to selling.

Without a doubt you will get "slippage" screwed as the yanks say, but how much is down to you and your involvement/appointment of the agent.

2. Lease

This would be my preference in your shoes.

Again in Thailand, some farms are leased out, lock stock and barrel and for your size i would estimate (once the trees are producing) you should get around 400,000bht per year leasing it out as a going concern and without having any of the associated problems of checking weekly returns.

The pitfalls to this is that if you lease it to a waster, they will not fertilise the trees properly, do too many and too large cuts and respect the trees similar to how a student respects his rented digs.

Again, its down to you to get the contract right and lease to the right person.

Your obviously weighing up your options which is a good way to tackle the issue rather than going in all guns blazing, good luck.

Well your fil is no fool that we can be certain about.

My feeling on the matter is that the fil couldnt care less about the fact that there's rubber on there, he has bought in Chanthaburi purely for long term investment. When you say he has given your wife the farm, do you mean the deeds as well, or has he given you a sitting (land) investment to manage and provide you (rather than him) with more stress than income ? If so then the fil's a sharp cookie.

For a pure rubber investment, yes its well overpriced, but i would presume he didnt buy it for that reason alone.

Out of interest what land title is it, Chanote perhaps ?

Hi all , a bit bored this morning and have a few hours to kill before I head out, so thought I would throw this in and see what people thought.

How much is a plantation really worth.

Now anyone who has read my posts will know I have a distaste for averages, but for this I will use them, plus will talk in US dollars, rather than Baht.

One rai land, say 70 producing trees. Making ribbed smoked sheet. Price $5 US a kilo [Know that's not today's price, but it was earlier and will be again, end of this year or next.] Average output allegedly 5 kilos per tree per year.

70 X 5 350 kilos per year. 350 kilos X $5 $1750 of rubber per year.

Now forgetting you are a farang, which has no relevance to prices. You are a man who can tap his own trees.

Man pays $3300 [ about 100,000 Baht] for that rai. Minus his costs, say $250 a year. He will have paid off his initial investment in under 3 years and own the trees and land.

Now I am no business man, but think you would be hard pushed to do the same in the west, whether in farming, buying a shop or gas station etc. Jim

My sentiments entirely Jim.

Anyone contemplating rubber should seriously consider purchasing a working plantation rather than starting from scratch with virgin land (unless of course they already own it and wish to keep it). Bearing in mind that semi forest rai is fetching up to 40,000 a rai at the moment, if you can buy established rubber currently producing at circa 100,000 a rai then its a no brainer, especially if the lumber is worth 40,000 (in time to come).

Jims calculations marry mine in that as Jim says, if you are the owner and tapper your return (based upon the higher price of rubber) is 33% p.a. If you employ a team on a split basis (50/50, 60/40) then your return is 15% p.a. These are the figures that I work to when buying established rubber. Stress testing the investment and allowing for rubber to fall by 50% to 40bht a kilo drops the return to 7.5%, still acceptable in my view.

Your investment is producing an income in baht and not from your country of origin (COO)and therefore you dont have the added loss of exchange rate variances in getting your money to Thailand. Additionally, you dont have to pay the punitive country of origin taxes (as its not in my name) you would be subjected to on the same rates of investment income if you invested in your COO.

But remember thats in a perfect world and running a plantation as a business is open to many, many variances that can affect that rate of return.

Jim you said you were rubbish at figures, what happened ?

Having a house on SPK land is not legal, the title allows for a workers hut not a large family dwelling. I know that Thais and farangs build and in most cases have no trouble, but in reality you need planning permission just like in the west, and you won't get it. You only need one jealous neighbor with a bit of pull to complain, bye bye house. Don't think it doesn't happen. Even out in the boonies where I live things are changing fast.

Ken interesting what you are saying about the Government up grading titles, hasn't started here yet, but a win win if you already have the land. The BIL who works for the local Government was saying last year, that if we have any money we should be buying possession land, no title at all, just land that people have been farming. Didn't get it at the time, but if they are converting farm land to charnote, there may be something to what he is saying. Jim

We have been told similar Jim, make sure that you pay your land tax on Sor POr Kor every year in the same name that the "new" owner is now registered, i.e. your wife. Maybe, and its just a maybe it will put one in a strong position IF Sor Por Kor does get a regraded land title.

Gary A, wheres that come from ? Do you have a link ?

Somo, thats a good point about the documents. The other one to remember is if you are buying the SPK from someone who has bought it from the original owner, i.e further down the chain, you must get a contract where the original owner also agrees to have "sold" it to you, not just the person you are buying it from. As I said get a good land lawyer and best to buy SPK with the view that you farm it to keep in the family for good.

We have bought sor por gor 4 land around our area, about 60 kms south of Phon Phisai.

After buying it we paid for a surveyor and then registered the official survey with the land office and anywhere from 1-3 years later we have received the chanote.

As Jim says it is Crown land, but from our dealing with the local land office they are trying to move this land to chanote ownership to increase their tax base.

Don't take this as any investment advice, just our own personal experience.

As for 8 rai of rubber for 1.4 million. I wouldn't buy it, but I would sell some at that price

Just 2 things to point out:

1. has a half biult house, not plain land all...i dont know what kind a house, but if it suits him to finish it up, might change the maths considerable.

2. he said: they asking for 1.4 million. Now, being as i am, and we all should, take asking price and make our offer somewhat lower....usually like 30-50% lower, if they know farrang who they offer too. in this case it would probably come to about 1 million, and if they motivated sellers i am sure he could close not higher than 1.1 million...

( i was just late to an offer in our region, 8.5 rai sugarcane, ask 450k, sold 320k...bad to seller, as i would give up to 350k...it has full chanote, and as added advantage it is about 2 km only from us; btw, my wife thought they wouldnt sell bellow 400k, but as yyou see, motivationmight be big drive).

Ting Tongs nearer the mark and thats from Tothemark

Its way overpriced, we are about 30kms from Phon Phisai and it would be fair to say that I have a good understanding of the prices in this area, albeit some factors will change the prices but you havent mentioned any strong ones.

I presume there are are about 600 trees on the site and they are either under performing and/or possibly 6/7 years old only?

IMHO the value on this land would be maximum 1m, possibly more like 900k.

There is no problem with sor Por Kor if you use a good land lawyer, i stress land lawyer not lawyer.

The issue with Sor Por Kor is that usually 15 rai was "given" by the state in the 80's under the land reform act to peasant/subsistance farmers allowing any one person a maximum of 50 rai. The original person gifted the land is the title holder and you have to be very careful when purchasing in the way that the new contract has to be worded. This is my understanding if i am incorrect I would be interested to hear others opinions.

We have seen a number of contracts where the title holder has "sold" the Sor Por Kor to the "new" owner and they clearly state that it allows them use of the land. Under this definition it is effectively a lease and by its definition of allowing use only, precludes the "new" owner from ever selling the land again, even though it does happen.

Dont be put off, we have bought Sor Por Kor, just get a good lawyer, I can pm you if you need one. But you will have difficulty if you ever want to borrow against it from a main street bank.

Earlier this year i looked at a site that was SPK (SorPorKor) and on its second owner, i didnt like the price or make up of the site, 28rai at 3.5m and walked away. We heard later it was sold to a Bkk "lady" but the original land holder blocked the deal on the basis i mentioned above.

Personally I would not rush into that deal, 8rai of rubber will be difficult to tap as it will not generate enough income for a third party tapper, so you may struggle to get anyone to work it, unless of course you want to do it ! As Jim has pointed out in the past dont rely on family unless they are already tapping in that area.

There are plenty of "agents" touting land around and I would advise spending a couple of weeks letting them take you or a family member around the area to see whats for sale, that will give you a very good understanding of just what you are getting into.

Have to say, I like Tothemark took what I heard on face value and never questioned the number. If Mark, a respected member, had not posted I would still be none the wiser.

Still not much wiser now, as I have no idea how much lumber you get from a tree. Think there is some sort of formula, about breast height diameter X height. Anyway if there are people selling old rubber, I would be contacting the Royal Thai Forestry Dept. or a big lumber supplier to see if they can recommend a logging company and hopefully get a fair price. Jim

Hi Jim,

No disrespect but if the lumber was worth 300,000 a rai I would be buying up all the rai i could of old rubber and i have seen a few. However, the lumber aspect is an important consideration when buying old rubber especially if you are looking at circa 100,000 to 130,000 as a purchase cost of older rubber per rai (this figure is based on rubber rai that i have been offered). The lumber goes some way to covering your replanting costs and growth cycle costs, especially if you can hit 40,000, ours unfortunately are only worth 20,000 as they are not 3m trunks.

A number of companies advertise on boards near rubber areas offering to buy the wood and actually travel round touting for business as well, thats how i got my figures, these figures were also confirmed by our land lawyer in Udon earlier this year when I asked him if our wood would fetch 40k per rai.

There was also some rubbish chinese whispers kicking about last year where the Thai government would buy back old rubber plantation lumber at well over the odds at around 60,000 per rai (some even mentioned 100,000) to stimulate replanting of better strains and higher yields, it was all <deleted> in the end which was a shame, as it would have meant some real cheap land opportunities.

Hi DMB

I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus. Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

Hi Jim,

Never thought I would be disagreeing with you !

But the figure per rai for old rubber varies between 20,000 to 40,000 baht per rai. I know this as fact because we have had a number of offers on our rubber which is over 20 years old.

The higher figures applies to the height of the trunks, where the 3m ones fetch the best money. Most trunks in Thailand are 2m+ on older trees, something to do with the height of the population and being able to prune height - methinks.

The 300,000 per rai is probably correct as the manufactured article in the shops, just goes to show what they make on the stuff.

Isaan Aussie

Hey guys, Im using conjecture only so that some farangs considering investing in farmland in Los, for the first time, take the time just to think about some of the pitfalls of land "ownership", none of this is directed at anyone and I am not here to question or quote on any ones personal circumstances. Nuff said.

Grimley Bob,

In parts of the western world the negativity that you refer to is substituted by prenups, pretty pointless to have that in Los when you cant own the land in the first place. But again thats conjecture

This topic is interesting. I would like to add a note on Farang Farmers themselves. The ones I have met are all involved in farming but with vastly different interests, levels of involvement and motivation. Some are full time and completely committed with others just as passionate when they can get here and planning for a full time future. Many are looking for a relaxed rural lifestyle and provide financial help to the inlaws. The point is there is no stereotypical Farang Farmer IMHO.

In my case, advise to "risk" only what you can afford to lose is a defeatist nonsense. I have never met anyone who is really trying to build a business that isnt prepared to put it all on the line if necessary. It is not about making the money last until the end, its about generating income and a new life. Its about doing something challenging and new and rewarding. Maybe I am just a crazy person, but I will retire when they put me in a box with a lily on my chest. Give up or give in? Never...

To the OP, if you want something badly enough, go get it. You will hit obstacles here as you would anywhere else. Walk around or climb over them. You would be well advised to read the stories of doom and gloom, of mistakes made and hindsights offered. But remember, there are always two sides to a story and too many people adding opinions to fill in gaps in the truth or knowledge. If I took a guess, I would say that over half of the disasters here are caused by poor decisions influenced by the smaller of a man's two heads.

Take your pick of what motivates you, the thrill of success or the fear of failure then go for it!

Isaan Aussie

Got to disagree with you here IA.

Lets look at some options bearing in mind we know very little about the OP, but we can make assumptions from the failures/rip offs as well as the success stories - couldnt tell you the ratio tho..

I would be quite happy to put everything into a business if I was able to extricate myself from it in the event of failure and recover a percentage of the original investment. In Thailand that isnt the case.

"Buying" farming land is not necessarily investing in your future but instead it is an investment in your relationship with your wife and your family.

Therefore, I suppose its back to measuring your risk :

If a guy was married to a bar girl, of which I am not, should they risk all their equity in the family farm ?

Should a guy put all his money into buying So Por Kor and have a risk by not holding full title to the family farm ?

You cant say yes and yes to both those questions for instance without your buttocks twitching, surely ?

thanks all for posting your point of views to this thread , i am taking all information on board , this website is just brilliant as are all the members , so happy i found it although not that difficult as it seems to be top of google all the time , i will update this later , with how i have got on .

Simple rule to follow, same as gambling or share dealing, only put into the project (financially) what you can afford to lose . If its a win win situation reinvest the profit rather than risking additional equity that you cannot afford to lose. If on the other hand your 85 years of age - just go for it !

Fezzy,

If you mean one of these we paid 15,800 from your local agro store or where you buy your fertilizer.

Look on a map of Northern Thailand,find Vientiene Laos. To the right there is a little bulge of Thailand that extends north into Laos. On the same latitude as Vientiene go to the center of that bulge and you'll see me.

Ken

Good to see your back up and running Ken, BTW we are just above you in that "bulge", many of my mil's family are from So Phisai which is about 30ks above you. Although we had the rains we didnt have those winds you had.

I presume everyone is talking about Rimm 600's ?

Prices for saplings are different for each strain, size and provenance. Without this information its a bit like saying I just went out and bought an Isuzu pickup.

Know where your buying from is probably the most important question. Your objective is to have good producing rubber trees after 7 years, if the strain is weak you could get much lower yields and a high proportion of trees that dont juice (perfect living trees but they give no latex).

Know what your buying, for example, we have two ladies who come into our site (rimm 600) and regularly take away young rubber shoots that have formed before we brush cut them. These are then used for grafting and grown in their own nursery and sold to whoever and wherever with little knowledge. Again, its a bit like buying an Isuzu pickup, but a second hand one. Buyer beware.

We have just ordered some new saplings having studied which tree will give the best result for our site. You can approach the local gov'nt rubber official who will recommend a nursery and inspect the saplings that you want to buy, anyone can do this and should only cost you some beer money.

In this instance we purchased JVP80 from a nursery in Bung Kan for 80bht each, circa 1ft + tall. The supply is from Malaysia and the nursery is government accredited to sell this strain.

Remember, copies and fakes of everything are just a way of life in Thailand, so forewarned is forearmed.

A simple but by no means complete way of identifying JVP80, should you want to have a look around, is that the end of the leaf is a much darker colour to the rest of the leafs upper surface and the underneath of the leaf is much darker again.

Not one to give up so easy today {Monday] off to Ubon land office to see what if anything can be done. Well it seems this is not an isolated case . There is a grace period where people can come and counter claim land, which we have done, but in the usual Thai way a lot of local Officals have to try and sort it out before the National boys will hear the case. Knowing the distrust of the locals for the BKK Government and the Thai mentality about being seen to lose, money will have to change hands. As I write this wife FIL and MIL has gone to see Uncle to try and get a deal, only problem is FIL is carrying and he is mad as hell.

Just goes to show when you think you have a handle on how it all works Thailand can throw in a new twist. Jim

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Jim,

My advice would be is to get yourself a good land lawyer, not one of these fancy "can do everything" types tho.

I used a friend of my wifes who is a land lawyer in Udon, bit far i know, but good advice from someone who knows land title registration is paramount, PM me if you need a contact number.

To : TTM- Not only rainfall ,but SOIL types are very different. Our upland soils, due to our proximity to the edge of the plateau, are sandy . Your soils will most probably be heavier. All crops here ,prior to the introduction of rubber , were as you say ,diversified, Many vegetable crops were grown in this area. So, local farmers are very experienced in growing them. Why , they only grow Mun , as an intercrop, I don' know. Growing mun DOES work very well, while the trees are young, and their root system is not well developed. This means Mun is NOT taking nutrients from the rubber. But it is essential that the correct fertilisers are applied,with adequate weed control, as well. By doing this, farmers are assured of a reasonable income , while the rubber is still young. With NO damage to the rubber trees. Or their future yielding. Remember , ALL farmers are aware of how to grow Mun. What they have to learn , much later ,is how to correctly tap the trees, to obtain maximum yield of latex.So, intercropping of Mun is recommended, as it provides income for those first approx. 4 years, with NO damage to the future yielding of the rubber trees.

Hi Afarang,

Thanks for providing a response in the true spirit of information exchange.

We have both gone off thread here as my comments are based on mono culture whilst yours are formed on intercropping. But, in my circumstances with rubber tappers workers only and and an ageing fil, i dont have the opportunities that you have to intercrop.

To open up this thread further can you give some costings and returns on mum per rai, as I am sure that others will be interested in the answers.

To the Mark, I am talking about Southern Isarn. ALL rubber growers in this area grow or grew Mun, While their trees were young, until the canopy formed. Your post about research,I am sorry to say, is meaningless to our area, as it refers to Songkla, which is Southern Thailand.Totally different climate ,rainfall patterns ,distribution ,and soils.Only one crop is grown - Mun Sumpalung (Cassava).My understanding is , that for Isarn , the research was conducted by Khon Kaen Uni..<who I am told did and /or do field tests , particularly on Peanuts (groundnuts), Which , personally I thought would have been an ideal crop, but NO ,none are interplanted with or between young rubber trees.Only Mun Sumpalung. Even though 3 years ago ,the price was not good ,everyone still planted Mun. Particular attention must be paid to correct fertilisers ,different for Mun and rubber. And to weed control. From a long history of inter[planting(that is,over many years), there appears absolutely NO detrimental effect on the rubber trees .THat given that about 80 % of our upland areas are planted to rubber. No rubber is interplanted with Paddy, as Paddy must grow IN water, the trees would drown.Some people,now, are trying to grow rubber on the levees around the Paddy fields. None are ready for tapping, as yet. Don't know if it will be successful or not. I have my doubts.

Hi Afarang,

Yes i agree with you in respect of the report i uploaded, in that it is southern based, where the rainfall levels are significantly higher. But it does give credence to the many types of intercropping that can be considered,i am surprised that your research found peanuts were not a suitable option as it is the one crop that i have heard bandied about, albeit we are NE Isaan.

The rice crops that are mentioned are upland rice as opposed to paddy rice, rubber planted on the levies ! If it works good luck to them as its a great way of utilising redundant land.

In my circumstances farming and rubber tapping require two different sets of human resources hence my reasoning to maintain mono culture, but I know many TVM's wish to undertake both operations.