clockworkorange

forces.

Thaksin was seen shopping at a Louis Vuitton shop in Paris on May 15 and even expressed willingness to participate in an evening discussion with French journalists on May 31.

....

Organisers confirmed that the event organised by the Centre of Political and Foreign Affairs was still expected to go ahead, but added that the fugitive former Thai leader had temporarily left Paris for London.

So all the recent Pravda articles that Thaksin is dead were wrong then?

And how can he go to London, given that his UK visa was revoked?

Please do, you are obviously right on topic - as we are discussing PM Abhisit's performance in a crisis. Quite the same thing really....

I cannot work out if you are being facetious or not....

Comments like yours on this website do nothing regarding trying to understand the complex problems this country is currently experiencing.

Obviously, education, or the lack of, is inextricably linked to inequality, marginalization, social exclusion, poverty, understanding social problems, freedom of expression, healthcare etc.

All the above, and of course much more, has led to the situation we have today in Bangkok and other provinces.

Therefore, maybe I am 'obviously right on [the] topic'.

Flaming is not good for anybody. Of course, there will always be different viewpoints on topics.

I hope that Thailand will come through this before more people are killed: before more business is destroyed.

Well put - for someone who claims to be a university teacher, SomTamTiger is surprisingly intolerant when it comes to the opinions of others.

The thing that makes TV an interesting read is the variety of opinions presented. Flaming people who simply disagree, crowing about ignore lists and the like, is a rather silly way to behave on what is supposed to be a forum for intelligent debate.

If SomTamTiger has something sensible to say, he should say it without being unpleasant to people who disagree.

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

To say the least. The man doesn't even have the power to make the bad decisions he's been credited with. He is more a joke than a leader.

Put yourself in his shoe and what will you do to solves and contains this chaotic situations. Care to comment?

Abhisit taking responsibility for for the part that he has played in this mess instead of playing the blame game might be a very good start.

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

The article is classic Pravda propaganda, prepared by the party faithful.

What it doesn't mention is Thailand's fatal flaw - mob rule has replaced the electoral process, which people have completely lost faith in. Neither does the Pravda article mention that Abhisit's lot used this very same method of mob rule to pave the way for the parliamentary deal that got him into power in the first place. Thais support fair play, and while such a system of injustice and hypocrisy prevails there will never be peace. We might also bear in mind that Abhisit's pretext for snatching power was reconciliation, but all we have seen is more chaos. Far from being celebrated as the next Abe Lincoln, Abhisit is just as much focus of hatred as Thaksin is - both of them should withdraw from public life and give the country a chance to repair its broken democracy.

Restoring the public confidence in their right to elect their leaders is really what the Thai authorities should be concentrating on right now. Elections are pointless until the army and judiciary stop meddling with the result.

Like you often do, you started strong but drew the wrong conclusion. Mob rule did NOT replace the electoral system this time. The government that was in power at the beginning of this mess was not brought down by mob rule. (In fact, mob-rule did not replace any of the last governments either!)

What we are seeing is the beginning of holding governments responsible for the actions of their members and a reduction in corruption.

You suggest mob rule brought down Samak and Somchai and that just isn't true. Samak was brought down by a very minor bit of corruption but could have been put right back into the driver's seat. Had he not broken the law and then LIED about it he'd have been the PM until PPP was dissolved.

Somchai was taken down by the court when they finally ruled on an open and shut case of electoral fraud. This freed Newin up from his commitment to Thaksin's parties and the rest is history!

All this rationalising on Abhisit's claim to power is a well-worn party line that simply hasn't worked. Only Abhisit and his followers believe it - the rest of Thailand and the world see the facade for what it is: a pack of lies, whitewashed with censorship and propaganda. The problem is that Thai people aren't dumb, and have matured to the extent where they just don't accept flimsy excuses as to why their democratic voice was ignored - excuses that may have worked in the past but don't wash anymore, as is evidenced by all the ongoing chaos.

For Abhisit to declare victory, and to be portrayed as a reincarnation of Abe Lincoln while the country burns and is so horribly fractured is premature to say the least. It reminds me of when George W. Bush stood on the deck of that battleship, with the "Mission Accomplished" sign above his head.

Ahhh - peace and quiet.

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It's up to you whose posts you read - why on earth make such a big issue out of it? If you are unable to read an opposing viewpoint, just read the posts of people who agree with you.

I agree however I neither support government or Reds, but I do think Abhisit as an individual deserves some respect as he at least allows himself to lose a little face and to acknowledge he does not know what to do....that is an admirable quality in anybody. A starting point.

There is nothing wrong with Abhisit per se - he is just another politician. The problem that he has is that a large slice of the population call foul on the way he came to power. Regardless of how he tries to justify how he got his job, people still see him as as a cheat who stole the seat from the leader that they chose.

Wasn't Clockwork Orange about a lunatic asylum? Perhaps you belong there.

You must have missed the point about Clockwork Orange. It was actually a satirical film about an imaginary dystopian future, one in which the more society tried to analyse and control itself, the more chaotic and morally bereft it became.

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

The article is classic Pravda propaganda, prepared by the party faithful.

What it doesn't mention is Thailand's fatal flaw - mob rule has replaced the electoral process, which people have completely lost faith in. Neither does the Pravda article mention that Abhisit's lot used this very same method of mob rule to pave the way for the parliamentary deal that got him into power in the first place. Thais support fair play, and while such a system of injustice and hypocrisy prevails there will never be peace. We might also bear in mind that Abhisit's pretext for snatching power was reconciliation, but all we have seen is more chaos. Far from being celebrated as the next Abe Lincoln, Abhisit is just as much focus of hatred as Thaksin is - both of them should withdraw from public life and give the country a chance to repair its broken democracy.

Restoring the public confidence in their right to elect their leaders is really what the Thai authorities should be concentrating on right now. Elections are seen as pointless until the army and judiciary stop interfering with the result.

Your heros burned down the city yesterday - You must be so proud!

Rather than taking sides, which isn't working and has not so far brought any peace, we should look at the situation objectively.

People have no faith in the electoral process anymore. There will be no peace until the root causes of the problem have been addressed - political opinions need to be expressed at the ballot box rather than on the street, and until the military and judiciary stop meddling this vicious cycle will likely continue.

It's all very well for you to hate one or the other side, but it won't solve the problem.

Abhisit honest? He's not honest enough to admit that his administration is the beneficiary of an effective coup. He is an apparently willing stooge of the "elite" whose sole political ideaology is to protect their own interests, leaving the rest of the country bereft of a government they can believe in. Expecting this arrangement to produce any meaningful reforms for the country is ludicrous. Until the roles of all participants in the political equation can be freely discussed and reconciled, the resistance is morally obliged to continue.

That's right. People don't trust Abhisit because his claim to power is so clearly flawed. Nothing will change that until he is elected in a way that is free of military and judicial meddling and gives everyone their say.

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

The article is classic Pravda propaganda, prepared by the party faithful.

What it doesn't mention is Thailand's fatal flaw - mob rule has replaced the electoral process, which people have completely lost faith in. Neither does the Pravda article mention that Abhisit's lot used this very same method of mob rule to pave the way for the parliamentary deal that got him into power in the first place. Thais support fair play, and while such a system of injustice and hypocrisy prevails there will never be peace. We might also bear in mind that Abhisit's pretext for snatching power was reconciliation, but all we have seen is more chaos. Far from being celebrated as the next Abe Lincoln, Abhisit is just as much focus of hatred as Thaksin is - both of them should withdraw from public life and give the country a chance to repair its broken democracy.

Restoring the public confidence in their right to elect their leaders is really what the Thai authorities should be concentrating on right now. Elections are pointless until the army and judiciary stop meddling with the result.

Been living in Thailand since 1987 and that's the first time that i will be

under curfew,, first time for everything i guess.

There was a curfew for one night during the 1992 unrest. Being a reckless young man at the time, I went out for a ride on my motorbike and rode along totally empty streets, dodging main intersections where the troops were. A surreal night that I will never forget.

Of course the Thai army, with all its weaponry and armour, can win this battle, much to the delight of all the armchair warriors in this forum.

However, winning this battle via more bloodshed in no way means winning the war. Driving the conflict underground presents some really awful possibilities for the whole of the country.

Before he earn the title of 'war criminal', Abhisit should have a long and hard think about the mess that he has helped to create. Negotiation really is the only way to solve this, and it may indeed cost him his precious job. It may also mean that he can't preside over the upcoming budget, and that his buddy Prayuth misses out on his chance to become the army chief when Anupong's tenure expires later this year.

Abhisit needs to get his priorities in order. He has turned into another Thaksin, with too many people hating him for there ever to be peace under hs rule.

Thaskin is definatly the cause and the financial organizer of this protest

Panic and chaos will allow him to return

But the question is

Is Thaskin the head of all of this

or just a puppet himself

There are many of my business friends who say he is but a puppet of The New World Order

and Thailand is a test site for bigger things to come

First it was your missus telling you what to say, and now your 'business friends'

You're right about Thaksin though. Contrary to what a lot of people might claim, he is simply a catalyst and not the root cause, which is public dissatisfaction with the system. When Thaksin goes, somone else will take his place.

Would it not be nice if the person who takes his place is intelligent and works peacefully from within the system to promote better economic balance and opportunity through education, lasting infrastructure and financial assistance?

Yes, I agree that it would be be so nice if that happened.

The dissatisfaction that the people have with the system is that the system has left its people dirt poor for years on end, and they are losing patience with it.

Thaskin is definatly the cause and the financial organizer of this protest

Panic and chaos will allow him to return

But the question is

Is Thaskin the head of all of this

or just a puppet himself

There are many of my business friends who say he is but a puppet of The New World Order

and Thailand is a test site for bigger things to come

First it was your missus telling you what to say, and now your 'business friends'

You're right about Thaksin though. Contrary to what a lot of people might claim, he is simply a catalyst and not the root cause, which is public dissatisfaction with the system. When Thaksin goes, somone else will take his place.

It is on.

APC's on Silom flyover have opened fire- soldiers advance on foot, gas from chopper above, redshirts firing fireworks.

Really sounding like this is really the army crackdown which is starting at the southern end of the rally site at Rama IV.

How very sad

Viewing the Nation's articles online is impossible these days. My browser always times out. It's as if they are connected to the Internet via a dial-up link.

What's wrong with the Nation?

Other publications that shall remain nameless are easy to connect to ...

You may bleat that such actions will lead to naught, but this is still a country where one does not have to live in fear of the 4 o'clock in the morning knock on the door from the 'authorities'. Thailand has a level of safeguards which protect the citizen. I have lived in places where not only do they not exist, but the Ludovico technique would be welcomed.

Safeguards should never be taken for granted.

What makes you so sure that the chaos should be put on hold to guarantee your safety? Why do you assume that you have a right to special treatment, simply because you are a foreigner?

You seemed like a chap with a brain, sorry to see that you're obviously not. Blaming Abhisit for the escalade is like blaming the shit that is stuck on your shoe.

As a leader of one of the sides to this conflict, Abhisit must of course take his share of the blame. The other side should also take blame. That said, declaring live fire zones and ordering troops to use live ammunition against protesters in the way that Abhsit has done, in an area inhabited by civilians, contravenes international law.

The two sides should both call a ceasefire, and come to an agreement using a third party arbiter if the distrust has reached a point where they can no longer talk to each other directly, which seems now to be the case.

What are the alternatives? A military crackdown? Everyone will come off worse, including Abhisit, who may well end up a war criminal if he continues to use the army to shoot protesters.

You seemed like a chap with a brain, sorry to see that you're obviously not. Blaming Abhisit for the escalade is like blaming the shit that is stuck on your shoe.

As a leader of one of the sides to this conflict, Abhisit must of course take his share of the blame. The other side should also take blame. That said, declaring live fire zones and ordering troops to use live ammunition against protesters in the way that Abhsit has done, in an area inhabited by civilians, contravenes international law.

The two sides should both call a ceasefire, and come to an agreement using a third party arbiter if the distrust has reached a point where they can no longer talk to each other directly, which seems now to be the case.

What are the alternatives? A military crackdown? Everyone will come off worse, including Abhisit, who may well end up a war criminal if he continues to use the army to shoot protesters.

Abhisit is delusional, and on very thin ice. In his unabating preaching about restoring the rule of law, he has forgotten all about the rules of international law. You don't indiscriminately fire live ammo at unarmed civilians, and you don't declare city streets that are still inhabited by ciivilians as free fire zones.

Unless Abhisit realises the error of his ways, and sits down to talk serious compromise, he could end up joining the ranks of war criminals lined up for trial at the Hague.

You seemed like a chap with a brain, sorry to see that you're obviously not. Blaming Abhisit for the escalade is like blaming the shit that is stuck on your shoe.

As a leader of one of the sides to this conflict, Abhisit must of course take his share of the blame. The other side should also take blame. That said, declaring live fire zones and ordering troops to use live ammunition against protesters in the way that Abhsit has done, in an area inhabited by civilians, contravenes international law.

The two sides should both call a ceasefire, and come to an agreement using a third party arbiter if the distrust has reached a point where they can no longer talk to each other directly, which seems now to be the case.

What are the alternatives? A military crackdown? Everyone will come off worse, including Abhisit, who may well end up a war criminal if he continues to use the army to shoot protesters.

Abhisit is delusional, and on very thin ice. In his unabating preaching about restoring the rule of law, he has forgotten all about the rules of international law. You don't indiscriminately fire live ammo at unarmed civilians, and you don't declare city streets that are still inhabited by ciivilians as free fire zones.

Unless Abhisit realises the error of his ways, and sits down to talk serious compromise, he could end up joining the ranks of war criminals lined up for trial at the Hague.

I'll bet you that an amnesty does happen, whether you like it or not.

And it won't be the first time. Were you around during the riots in 1992? Suchinda still plays golf, sits on company boards of directors and enjoys unfettered freedom, despite all the calls for his scalp while people were dying on the streets.

and there was an amnesty in '76 too.

even the nation this latter mentioned it today. that's the signal that amnesty is at hand or, at least, is being strongly put forward by some inside the gov.

if Bush could use brilliantly use anmnesty to bring barbarians into the fold in Sunniland, so can Abhsit bring Reds into the fold in Thailand.

its a tried and true formula that works.

You are doing it again, including the words Bush and brilliant in one sentence - ITS AN OXYMORON ! and if you really think that Baghdad is such a great democratic place why don't you move there ? but may be th daily bombings and suicide attacks may scare you or the nightly attacks on anything moving on the roads outside

Come on Weng admit, it is you your ass is gonna land in jail pretty soon but you won't be alone, you'll have plenty of company from your traitor friends and you can all spoon together

That method of argument typifies the kind of intimidation that is bringing Thailand down. Opposing viewpoint must be associated with a 'criminal' label, in this case calling a valid opponent 'Weng', putting the opponent in fear, shutting the opponent up.

I for one would take more notice of your comments, if they contained sensible points and reasonable arguments.

Thaksin's vendetta? How simplistic - it's as if removal of Thaksin would make any difference to this mess, and return Thailand to a state of Utopia. It won't, because this problem extends far beyond Thaksin and Abhsit's blinkered clique.

There are two ingredients to civil unrest - public dissatisfaction and a personality to act as the catalyst, or lightning rod that channels the dissatisfaction into action. Thaksin was the catalyst this time around, but unless something is done to address the public dissatisfaction the instability that caused it will remain.

This is a Thailand problem, not a Thaksin problem. When he goes, another opportunistic politician will take his place and the unrest will continue unless something is done to address the root cause.

I think you are confusing your western ideals with the Thai love of a quick buck. Without the incentive of getting paid for attending the rallies/protests/terrorist gatherings (choose one to suit your political bent), I very much doubt we would be having the current problems.

Whoever said money is the root of all evil was pretty close to the mark. I support no faction in this current situation, I do, however support the rule of law!

Your response appears as a modification to my original post. Tip - when posting reponses, place them after the unquote mark that marks the end of the original post, so it is clear who said what

clockwork orange.

I think you will find that Suchinda Krayapoon has fallen off of his perch and as such it would indeed be an interesting board meeting if he decided to turn up.

That's him - the same guy who was appointed Chairman of Telecom Holdings, the holding company of Telecom Asia after all the bloodshed that he had played a part in. If he has since died, that makes no difference to the fact that he enjoyed freedom, and his legacy is honoured, even: http://www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/pm_19.htm

If that's not an amnesty, what is?

You're too, and don't be surprised to see all the perpetrators of this current Thai mess walk away scot free.

There may be no other choice that doesn't involve killing people.

clockworkorange,

oh several of these posters fully understand what you say full well.

some are simply ignorant, but others know well enough that innocence is dying daily here. and they know that their declared policies are formulae for death, pain, grief and destruction.

not only of committed reds, but of children.

thai blood is precisely what they want.

Weng, please post your drivel only once, we know you want to keep your ass out of jail, hope it ain't going to happen but there is no one here who can help you

I'll bet you that an amnesty does happen, whether you like it or not.

And it won't be the first time. Were you around during the riots in 1992? Suchinda still plays golf, sits on company boards of directors and enjoys unfettered freedom, despite all the calls for his scalp while people were dying on the streets.