envirogirl

I did not mean I would be the one to start the movement, I was merely providing an example of how a group of people could do something to quicken the pace of positive change rather than just point fingers. While this is a worthy cause, I must focus on my passion - environmental justice - as there is lots of work to be done there. That said, I am compassionate and sympathetic for this one, hence my comments which I hope are in some way proactive.

For the record, I said slavery was illegal, not that the practice has completely disappeared. I am not that stupid. My point was that if my neighbors were practicing some form of slavery I could have them brought to justice or at least attempt it. To me, that is a hel_l of a lot better than the past. Ganja is illegal too and well lets just say not all of us are law abiding citizens (ah hem). Prostitution - goodness me - I would not even want to broach that topic on this forum, let alone on a thread that has nothing at all to do with it.

I'll end by suggesting that the owners of establishments in Chiang Mai asses the feasibility of making some small effort sto accommodate disabled people. I believe one poster already mentioned s/he had a frequent customer in a wheel chair. Surely s/he can offer advice on the topic.

For all we know, there is a lobby rallying in Bangkok as we write. Or maybe tomorrow the princess will decide this will be one of her campaigns. Things can change quickly if people mobilized. Education would take a while, but only if thats the one method for change being depended on. Education in combination with many other well funded campaigns could go quicker.

As many people noted, disabled Thai's and their families are not likely to be very empowered, but that is not to say some external group wouldn't come along and be their voice. For example us. If we are all so passionate about this topic and think the Thai people cant take care of it themselves, then why not get off the forum and do something about it instead of bitching and nagging at one another about silly little points?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some international NGO focused on disabled people. Certainly the human rights org's would be happy to include it in their long list. Believe me, they always need another campaign.

I am not in full belief that the necessary changes would occur in my lifetime, but I am not going to give up hope either. Just think - for 1000's of years slavery was acceptable, but today it is illegal. The start of that shift in perception began with a small group of people and eventually made it around the globe. Not without massive resistance of course.

Sorry to impose my hope onto all of you - but it is an attitude that I must always go with as someone involved in the environmental movement. You can't just throw your hands up and say 'these people will never listen'. Goodness, 30 years ago environmental advocates hated 'the man' and now green business is as popular as renewable energy. I don't think we should give up on everything because of corruption - how weak. Tell me one government that is not corrupt.

Groups of passionate people had to fight very long and hard for the disabled friendly features we see (use) in the developed world. Certainly the people of my generation completely take this for granted. I have yet to see any developing country make the requirement for these features a national policy. In fact when I see a ramp or some other small provision for the disabled, I am shocked and amazed.

I agree that the disabled stay home here and are not as independent as those back in some of our home countries. In turn, I think this behavior does not bring the demand to the forefront. Otherwise, decision makers are concerned with other issues. Does anyone know if there is any lobby for the disabled? If there is one and it were strong, we could see some positive steps with some effort (funding).

I also think there are stronger social networks here so maybe these people do not have as much of a need to be so independent (desire being another issue).

I also agree that many people who become disabled as a result of accidents are likely not to receive the same level of rehabilitation in Thailand, especially if there are unskilled laborers.

It is a shame this is the case in Thailand, but I don't think the concept is light years away. I think with more development and economic growth, it will be a likely as Thai people are generally compassionate.

I think a lot of the 'safe' perceptions expressed on this topic are because some of us are treated differently as farangs (I know I am one of them). I think a lot of Thai criminals wouldn't want to deal with the added problems that would come from harming a farang, since there is risk of ruining the face of 'amazing'/ 'smiling' Thailand.

That said, some people really get stuck in and see many more sides of Thailand as Paa gai has obviously done. For example, I have a young male farang friend -that has been living here since he was 17 (about 3 years now). He speaks great Thai and knows the Thai way very naturally. I tell you, for someone so young he has some serious stories about mafia, weapons, large scale bar fights, almost being pushed off a cliff by a rival gang, hearing the tuk tuk driver call someone and describe him and his friend to see if they were 'wanted' (obviously not knowing he could speak Thai), etc. But he very opinionated, likes to drink and has a lust for adventure and seeing everything that he possibly can so these are some of the experiences that are likely to be had along the way.

The closest I have come to not feeling safe in Chiang Mai was when I had my purse stolen out of the front basket of my bicycle (one of those goofy tourist things that I had to ride before I bought a motorbike). It was 9 pm on a dark street. I know, I know - I might have well just handed it to the guy. In my defense I was not thinking straight after a nice massage.

I don't ever really feel safe anywhere. This is partially because I was raised in a big city and was trained to believe that danger lurked around every corner. It is also because I am really naive at times, as you may have already guessed, so as a result I have inadvertently put myself in stupid situations. Because I always debate with my instinct, I can't tell which is which so I just have to not trust people or feel safe until I can be absolutely sure somehow.

And thank you to all the men who recognized that us women have a higher risk of running into 'riff raf', although I really wish that weren't true. Somehow I have survived many 5 am tuk tuk rides to my home a bit out of the center. The only real danger I felt was being ripped off or not paying attention to the change being handed over. Again, my fault.

When I asked this exact question to a reiki healer (an English woman based in Pai for years), she told me that the attraction to Pai was its spiritual energy which resulted from the type of rocks found in the surrounding mountains. There is one theory. I can't say I buy that, but I do think there is a nice laid back feeling to the place. I even managed to feel this way when i went during the king's birthday, which was on a friday last year. There were so many Thai tourists, that I hardly saw farang faces and felt as though I was in a lightening storm with all the pictures being taken. Some of the business owners that cater to the farang taste were a bit worried about this shift in tourist demographic, especially since the farang tourists that came that weekend could find no where to stay and they had to move on.

I digress - sorry. What I personally love about Pai is the food, the annual reggae festival, the size, the silly little things you can buy there and the amount of outdoor activities to take on in the surrounding areas. The hippies are easily ignored, although I find the old Thai hippies pretty amusing.

If you're worried about going back on your word, just sack em and start again. Simple

Attitudes like that is why there are unions and human rights issues I shure would not have liked to have worked for you. Lighten up the are human.

I have to write that I am a bit shocked by the responses thus far (yes, I am somewhat new to this forum) and totally agree with GL about these attitudes being the reason unions were formed and human rights advocated.

Wow - these people are STAFF not slaves. For goodness sake give them some freakin days off! They have lives too. If it were me, I would give them 2 days off a week PLUS at least 13 public holiday as is the law. I get these 13 days off, 6 paid vacation (what the difference given the amount of pay anyway). How wonderful - 13 random days off, some in the middle of the week. I think Thai's as a whole are underpaid and treated badly by bosses no mater where they are from, which could be contribution to so much of the inefficiency we see. I have seen the same faces in all the places I frequent - any time I go. This has to be all these people do. I think I would kill myself if I had to be at tesco for that much of my life mindlessly saying sawatdee ka over and over again.

There is no need to take advantage of people's desperate positions in life. If you, as an educated professional from a developed country, get days off why can't your house staff as well? As for you business owners - just because you work 24/7 doesn't mean your staff have to! Unless they own some share of your company - why should they? Have them work hard when the moment requires, but not every waking moment. Its your venture, your livelihood, your risk.

I'd also like to let all you distinguished gentlemen out there know that it is never too late to alter your world views. For instance, not all wives are 100% responsible for cleaning the house. You can help as well, although personally, I have not found many men that are that good at cleaning, nor maids for that matter. I prefer to waste an entire saturday - one of my precious days off - cleaning my house. In any case, I understand this attitude of mine is why so many men prefer women that have not been shown the recent liberties that some women have finally acquired for themselves. To each their own - I respect your decision - please don't get me wrong.

Straight Dave - As a fellow American, I would like to point out that average American citizens are much more into the gun culture than average citizens in the rest of the world (where the gun culture is mostly reserved for rebels, criminals, military and police verses the closet of a middle class family in America). There are some amazing stats to support this.

In addition, I think many of the foreigners that choose to live here are looking for a peaceful life (i.e. one where you do not feel the need to carry a weapon). I am guessing these are some of the reasons you are seeing so much aggression geared towards your post.

I also see that you are getting pretty defensive just on this casual forum, which doesn't help your claim that you are responsible with your weapons.

Just trying to help clarify, since many American's (no matter how much they 'know' or 'see' of the world) still believe that other cultures think like us.

BTW non American readers: I would just like you to know that there are still a handful of Americans that are NOT addicted to weapons, war and the belief that carrying a weapon is a god given right. I am one of those people and yes I can very easily and proudly be labeled as a far left, liberal, hippie freak who is not fond of death and destruction in the name of patriotism.

envirogirl & drtreelove, thanks for your posts, i've been considering a stay of upto 6 months in india for a while now & have browsed inidamike for a wee bit, i'm hesistant as to how i'll react there though as i've read similar comments to your own & how it can be a complete shock to the system of even seasoned travellers, i'm not putting myself in that bracket by any means and that's why i've had my concerns, i'm essentially after a laid back atmosphere (lol as much as is possible) and would like to embrace the indian culture, with an interest & view to learning about the cuisine and yoga, i'd also like to visit the temples, the origins/path of buddha and if possible take a short break to the mountanous regions

any information & tips either of you could share would be greatly appreciated, i'm male & in my late 20's if this has any relevance

Try it! If you go with an open mind, the good will out weigh the bad, as I think those of us with experience there have already alluded to. Especially if you are going the spiritual/mountain route (although I warn you not to stay hidden away in those places for too long as some really annoying travel authors have done). I learned so much from my time there and still keep in close contact with the friends I made from there. There is a movie called "Outsourced" and I highly recommend that you watch it. They captured the little details of this kind of cultural exchange almost perfectly. I was touched and never would have thought such emotions would come from a movie about an american guy that is forced to move to India to train his replacement.

Beyond that I would need to know more about you before I could truly recommend it. As a said in my first post, I would be more than happy to write to you in person as I have done for many other people that have traveled or moved to countries that I have lived in. PM me.

Sorry to hear that happened to you, but as many people who posted before me said, it happens all the time - everywhere.

In fact, it happened to me the other day by a Thai family that came to buy almost everything from my house (Moving out sale). I have a dresser and a vanity set that I am selling for a mere 1500 baht (originally 3000 new, bought 7 months ago). The woman only wanted the dresser (closet) but I prefer to sell them as a set so I talked her into needing both. She in turn got the price lower (I am no match for an asian barginer), but I did not have all my stuff out of it and there was no more room in their truck so we agreed she would come back. She was even going to pay me right there for it, but I told her to hang on to the money.

Needless to say she called and canceled, which I half expected, but am not bothered really. I am mostly grateful she had the decency to call and cancel the deal so I can move on.

Of course this is hardly close to the hassle CMB went through, but I just thought I would share my experience.

And since I am an honest person, I also would like to admit that I wanted to use this opportunity to advertise the availability of this dresser set to all you fine folks reading. It really is a good deal and as I said, they are in good condition and I actually have 2 sets available (dark brow plywood). I also have pictures if you're interested. PM me.

I would love nothing more than to see elephants and countless other animals returned to their original wild spaces so they can roam freely and avoid 9 - 5 work as footballers or painters, but lets face it, where is that space? Since WWII Thailand has lost vast amounts of forest to the agricultural production that is needed to feed this rapidly growing population. Not only that, but a population that is climbing the economic ladder. But the sad fact is elephants have to work for a living like the rest of us. They eat and drink a lot! Whats worse is that they are actually lucky people find them so darn special because if there wasn't a way to make money off them, then they would likely be extinct in Thailand or certainly close to it, without large regions of forest to feed them well enough to keep them from foraging in a farmers field, who will them likely shoot them to protect their meager livelihood.

I'd also like to add that it is a very conservative culture, which means that keeping up family appearances is of the utmost importance and that can somehow impact you. Of course people drink alcohol there, but it is subtle and hidden from people who's families do not accept it (which in my experience was many). In major cities, there are endless clubs and bars but I hardly went. If you like meat, this is not the place for you, but again it is available everywhere. If you are a single white man, then you might get a bit frustrated with the complete lack of access you have to the stunningly beautiful and intelligent Indian women. If you are a single white women, you better watch your back because Indian men will hunt you like no other place. Either way, they don't even come close to the way Thai people mix with foreigners on the 'romantic' level. I think it best to bring a partner with you.

I have lived in Chiang Mai longer than India, but I still feel safe to say life is much easier here. However, that is not to say you cannot live happily there, but it all depends on you. In my experience, Indian's have this amazing ability to read people. If they read you are disgusted by their country, they will react negatively (but very subtly). If they read you are open to learning about their amazingly rich culture, then you will be hosted better there than anywhere else in the world. Fortunately, my experience was the latter case because I was there to conduct graduate level research on the impacts of a water resources development project on marginalized people (tribal and lower caste) which helped shape my attitude.

I have also lived and traveled around East Africa and a handful of other developing countries around the world and will always say that India was the most intense experience on every level. It is crowded, dirty and the probability for getting scammed is high. But it is also colorful, interesting and again, some people of the people I met there are among my favorite interactions.

As for logistics, I noticed that many regions have very bad problems with consistent electricity and water. All resources are stretched thin among the world's second largest population as you can imagine. If you work from home, I am assume electricity is important to you so look into that since some regions are better than others (like in government or international IT company areas). While I welcomed the break from computer work at the NGO I did my internship at, I had to exit the building as soon as it went off because the heat was unlike any other I have experienced (monsoon season). Not that I am an aircon addict, but I hardly came across them there (could also have to do with electricity availability).

While I actually enjoy the very sweet Indian Chai that is available and offered everywhere, I did miss the coffee culture since I am an absolute coffee addict (another reason I love life in Chiang Mai).

Honestly, life in Thailand is cake, even compared to my home country, but certainly compared to India. But other things make up for it there.

I am not sure if this was helpful to you, but if it was and you would like to continue the conversation feel free to PM me.

All this sexy man talk reminds me once again of how differently I am perceived as a 30 year old white woman in Thailand.

Hello Sexy Girl!!!!!!!

What a place. It has the same type of service mentioned for the Golden Hand, but add tea and cookies at the end (always gets someone like me).

So... I guess that qualifies as a 'happy ending'...?

<ka-ching!>

Well thank you sir - it has been a while. Thai men catch a look and practically run away - not good for the ego. Although they tend to be grabby in a dark club. As for the happy ending - I really did LOL. You are totally right. I am very happy at the end of my massage when they give me the cookies and tea. I wonder how the level of happiness compares to other happy ending massages?

BTW - I happened to pass that shop mentioned by Drew and it seemed nice, but the place i mentioned is a bit fancier and way more quiet. Worth a few extra baht for the happy ending and overall atmosphere.

All this sexy man talk reminds me once again of how differently I am perceived as a 30 year old white woman in Thailand. Seems like such a hassle if you are not in the mood.

Of the perception of an aging white woman changes as she sit alone on a beach in Phuket...but thats not my point. My point is to say thank you for the recommendation. For that price I will certainly check it out.

I'd also like to add that I found a slightly higher priced version of this place 'next door' to the airport plaza on the road to Hang Dong. If you were coming from town on that road (sorry not a road name person), you would take the next u-turn after passing the large freeway underpass. Right after the turn you pass the green bank (again, sorry I just can't remember the name of that one) and go even slower until you see a gravel drive way leading you to relaxation massage. What a place. It has the same type of service mentioned for the Golden Hand, but add tea and cookies at the end (always gets someone like me). I love the atmosphere. Lots of different services available around 200 baht/hour.

10 baht per day - also done it many times with no problems.

I would like to add my recommendation for the Thai Elephant Conservation Center in Lampung. It is about 30 minutes drive from Lampung city and about 1 hour from Chiang Mai. Please also note that the name and website have changed so their current address is: http://www.changthai.com/. I believe they are slowly building the information displayed at the moment. It is best used for knowing which days are best to do their mahout program.

I have been there many times with my company in an attempt to partner with them on a unique volunteering experience where you do not clean up poop and teach nearby kids English. Rather, a 'volunteer' combines the typical mahout training experience with a series of lectures from elephant and fundraising experts such that they can continue to advocate for the elephants back home through multi media. Because our program is new, I wrote up some information on the camp to fill gaps on their website. I have pasted it below if you are interested. If you happen to be interested in my volunteer program, PM me.

About the Thai Elephant Conservation Center

The plight of the Asian elephant today is a very curious one. Two centuries ago there were about 100,000 domesticated elephants in Thailand. Elephants were incredibly useful in transport and agriculture and even war. Culturally, they are revered in both Buddhism and Hinduism, and they figured highly in the Thai arts and literature. With the coming of commercial logging for teak and other woods, elephants dragging logs were used to destroy their own forest home. In the aftermath of that destruction, over half of Thailand’s 2,700 elephants work in tourism, which since a logging ban in 1989, is the only form of legal work. This fate might seem sad but the truth remains that tourism is the elephants’ savior, because people simply cannot keep elephants if there is no way to make a profit from them. Thus, for those who truly love elephants, the biggest challenge is to learn and to devise new methods to help elephants within the tourism sector.

In the early 1990’s, several committed elephant enthusiasts came up with an idea to house and train rescued elephants on a government owned forest plantation in Lampang province. The result was the creation of the Thai Elephant Conservation Center (TECC), a government enterprise and the first of it’s kind in Thailand.

With access to almost 20 square kilometers of forest plantation, the TECC manages:

• A nationally recognized elephant hospital that is the first of its kind in the world. With five elephant veterinarians on 24 hour call, the objectives of the hospital are to treat all elephants free of charge, educate people interested in elephant health and to perform elephant husbandry through the breeding program.

• A mobile clinic designed to take care of sick elephants that are unable to be transported to the TECC hospital.

• The Elephant Nursing Center located in the Baan Pang Lah Elephant Scantuary near the TECC, where retired, crippled or dangerous elephants can find care and refuge.

• A nursery for new born elephants and their mothers or abandoned baby elephants in need of special care.

• A mahout training school, where mahouts maintain and train the elephants they are assigned to until one of them retires in life. Mahouts often pass down the profession over generations and/or are assigned an elephant after a series of rigorous tests. Mr. Prasop, one of the TECC’s founders, says ‘we consider the elephant like a daughter and the mahout as a son-in-law.”

• An elephant dung paper making factory that is power by biogas generated from elephant waste. The paper is used to make a variety of unique looking paper products such as address books, journals, writing pads, greeting cards and much more. These products are sold to raise additional funds for the TECC.

• A traditionally designed homestay made from local natural fibers. Living there is simple, but comfortable and centrally located on the campus.

• The Chang Thai resort and restaurant is comprised of individual bungalows scattered throughout a tiny hillside. The resort offers many comforts and excellent Northern Thai cusine.

• 80 elephants, 120 mahouts and 80 administrative staff.

Providing for domesticated elephants is no easy feat, which is why so many are abandoned or destroyed today. With additional resources TECC would have even greater ability to take in more elephants to give them the life they would not have otherwise. In addition, increased exposure to the exciting research projects already taking place at the camp is likely to promote the benefit of elephants beyond tourism. In its approach to responsible tourism through volunteering, Track of the Tiger has partnered with TECC to offer visitors a unique and mutually beneficial interaction with elephants.

Does Thailand have any sort of welfare/dole system other than the sanctuary of the temple? If not then, I feel as though we have the benefit to choose who we give to rather than support the whole lot of people who claim to be in need.

In regard to passing out money on the street, I go with my feeling at the moment I look the person in the eye. I probably give to half or less of the people I see asking for money. If I have left over food with me (more likely to happen back home given the portion sizes), I offer that up. I have negotiated a couple of times with beggars back in the US. I tell them what the food item is and ask them to tell me the truth if they really want it. I do this because I saw this over weight beggar with a sign saying he wanted food, throw away the left over turkish pastry I just gave him. Another time in the US, I told the beggar that it was a Korean noodle soup and he politely turned it down. In India, I handed a begging woman an ice cream and she seemed pretty disappointed. Three little girls wouldn't stop following me in the streets of Kampala, Uganda and I had no money on me at the moment so I couldn't give. A Ugandan man yelled at me to just give them something - I was pissed. I actually enjoy the people singing in the markets here - ads to the atmosphere.

In my narrow soi with nothing but 2 story condos side by side and very little green space, there are quite a few dogs that live in the owners drive way 24/7. Yes they have frequent barking fits, sometimes at 4 am but generally if the owner is home they are told to shut up and it works. While I still find this annoying, it was also somehow comforting when I was stuck temporarily caring for a loud mother cat and her two screaming kittens. Of course they are not nearly as loud, but for sure the neighbors could hear their meowing (which they did a lot) and if I didnt get to the litter box in time or the kittens missed the target, I am sure they could smell unpleasant things at times as well. When I would feel bad about the annoyance this must be causing to my neighbors (who cook on their back porch right next to where the cats lived), I thought of their little yapping dog and didn't worry as much. I would have been much more stressed otherwise. Thankfully the cats have been transfered to a loving Thai family that may be better equipped to care for them, but I still tend to listen to my music loud and smoke outside. It all evens out.

JxP - Wow - thanks for the detailed information! Maybe you should open a shipping company? I was leaning towards the Thai post anyway. I hope this benefits other as well.

Does anyone have advice on the cheapest reliable way to send a box full of random stuff back to the likes of the US? Is the Thai post worth it? Can DHL offer low prices? What else is out there? I am no rush to get it back home, it just wont all fit into the 2 bags I moved to Chiang Mai with over a year ago and I can't seem to part with some things.

Does anyone know a place/person who will take a broken refrigerator? I would be so happy if someone could reuse it and/or some of its parts.

Any suggestions in this regard are welcomed.

I will probably go to Sri Pat or Ram Hospital though, not a clinic.

Thanks for referring me to your previous post on a similar topic. I wonder why you say not a clinic? I liked the idea of not dealing with the 14th floor of a hospital I'll have to find on the map first. I know exactly where the clinic that one of the members referred you to on your post is, so I was going for the easy route. That said, I am somewhat new to medical care in Thailand and although it is available everywhere - quality is so variable that I don't want to take chances (hence my posting) so I am willing to go to where the best quality care is.

Thank you all for such informative and sensitive responses to a topic like this! It is very much appreciated.

Mssabai - Thank you so much for taking the time to write such an informative reply. I will do as you suggest after after finding out which hospital has the best rep in Chiang Mai. All the best.

That said, I am still open to suggestions from women who have dealt with this in Chiang Mai.

Both the health food stores(Aden and Ban Suon Pak) in town always keep cats on hand for rodent and large insect patrol. They have plenty of cats now but other food storage type shops might be interested in taking them on. Have you tried that approach?

Not yet, but thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll do that as a last resort. I am aiming high for a loving home and will hold out as long as I can. If all else fails, I'll give that a shot.