MsNina

chuckd, jeepz and stroll are both correct as to why I posted that I'm a feminist who doesn't want to live next to the sex tourists... so that people don't recommend places near the sex tourists. Pretty simple.

I also keep repeating that I'm a feminist because people keep on asking me about it. It's difficult to answer a question about why I post that I'm a feminist without saying, once again, that I'm a feminist.

Also, I had expected to find my apartment on my own. Perhaps that's naive but I'm a very independent person and hadn't planned on asking one of my two future colleagues to help me. Even if one of them does help me, I'm excited about going to Bangkok and so wanted to start planning it ahead of time (i.e. before I get there... wow, there's a novel concept)... and for me, as I've never been to Bangkok, planning includes working out the orientation of the city, what the different areas are like, etc. etc. Hence the questions. Satisfied?

Btw, I'm a feminist.

This thread was not meant to be about any kind of feminism. I started it with the intention of getting information about living in Bangkok. I added to my initial post that I am a feminist, because I thought that that would be important information to include for people recommending a areas for me to live in. I think this thread would be much more useful if people discussed living in Bangkok rather than what to do with radical feminists.

Signed

yohan, you not only presume an awful lot about me, but you make statements which are completely untrue. I am not a researcher and am not going to Thailand to conduct a study about the women in Thailand's sex industry/ies. I don't have my air fare paid for, will not be getting an expense account, and have no political connections. I've also quite clearly said that I'm not going there to save (or 'resque') anyone, but if you were to acknowledge that, then it would dilute your misogynistic diatribes against radical feminists, wouldn't it? You might be able to put a whole lot of internet links here, but you are still completely - and probably willfully - misinformed about radical feminists if you truly believe that radical feminists do not care about other disadvantaged groups.

You have also misquoted me - Thailand is _a_ major centre of trafficking, but not _the_ (as in, the only) major centre. Unfortunately, there are many key areas, in terms of numbers, of trafficking.

Axel, trafficked women go overseas expecting to work in restaurants, as hostesses in bars, as nannies, or to be involved in prostitution - what they don't expect is that their passports will be taken away from them, their movements restricted if not completely confined, violence, inability to choose 'clients,' or to insist upon a condom etc. etc. You might think this is naive, but who really expects that they will suffer the most violent abuses when they sign up to go overseas?

Finally, re: the question of male privilege, here are some indisputable facts which demonstrate gender inequality.

- 2/3 of the planet’s 2.8 billion poor who live on less than $2 a day, are women.

- 2/3 of the world’s 880 million illiterate, are women.

- 2/3 of the 113 million children who do not go to school are girls.

- women own 1% of the world’s land.

- 90% of war causalities are civilians, 80% of whom are women and children. A century ago, 90% of war casualties were military men.

- 2/3 of the exploited informal work force are women.

- Although women now represent 41% of all workers in developing countries, their wages are 30-40% less than those of men for comparable work.

- Adult women suffer more than men from malnutrition and girls are twice as likely to die from malnutrition and preventable childhood disease than boys.

re: Thailand being singled out for condemnation on the issue of the traffic in women and children...

Certainly in the circles I circulate in, Thailand is not singled out. The feminists, police officers, government bureaucrats, and other support services and researchers in no way think that Thailand is the major place for trafficking. Everyone I know understands that trafficking is a global problem, with the major sending areas being Africa, East Europe and the CIS, South Asia, Southeast Asia and South America. The major destination areas are Western Europe, the US, the Middle East, Australia, Japan and Korea. Some countries, like India and Thailand, fall into both groups, and experience significant internal trafficking. So I do not understand why people seem to be taking these allegations personally on behalf of Thailand - no one is suggesting that Thailand is worse than these other places or that there is something inherent to Thailand which causes these egregious human rights violations. It is true that we are focussing on Thailand here, but that is because it is a forum about Thailand.

Mango head, your suggestion about targetting travel agents is like trying to address cancer with a band-aid. The only way to stop the traffic in women is to address demand, as well as supply issues. At the moment, billions of dollars is being spent on prevention measures, but all this is doing is displacing the problem to other villages/towns. We need a co-ordinated, multi-lateral, global solution whereby all countries address supply and demand, so that not only are men no longer demanding the services of prostituted women but there is also no longer a supply of women vulnerable to being prostituted.

And for the record, poverty is not necessarily the main factor leading to women's vulnerability to being trafficked. Often trafficked women are not the poorest women of a society, because they often need to pay the recruiter a substantial amount of money in order to make the initial move (usually a woman will want to work overseas where she can earn more money than at home, will contact the services of an 'employment' agency to find them work, arrange visas etc., pay them money for this, and when they arrive in their destination, are forced to do something they did not agree to at all). Lack of employment opportunities, domestic violence, desire for adventure and independence and the relative poverty of a country rather than the individuals are greater factors in trafficking than poverty of an individual.

Natee1, if you want a link go here http://www.projectrespect.org.au/ and see their excellent Resources page.

Mango Head:

MsNina says there are billions of dollars being spent to solve the problems but very little is getting accomplished.  Now they will think laterally (whatever that means) and come up with the solutions.

The billions being spent are probably going into the pockets of those that are spending it.  NGOs are bad about that sort of thing.  MsNina will be paid a year's salary and will come up with nothing too, despite all this lateral thinking.  I hope she knows what she is in for.

I just hope she doesn't come to Pattaya and make me give up my fornicating ways.

I bother to answer a post seriously and thoughtfully and get a johan-type reply in response...

For what it's worth, the billions being spent largely goes to the villages its meant to get to... but what's billions of dollars going to do against the trillions of the multi-national corporations, military-industrial complexes etc?

And don't worry, I've no wish to meet you in Pattaya to try to make you give up your abusive ways.

Chuckd, I do not believe that all prostitute women are downtrodden, nor that they are 'forced' into prostitution in the way most people here would understand by 'forced.' There is no chance that I am going to Thailand with such an attitude (and I have consistently said this in my posts).

The prostitute women I know here in Australia are generally incredibly resourceful, usually very funny women who I have immense respect and admiration for. Usually, they have gone to extreme lengths to provide for loved ones and either experience great stigma or spend most of their time hiding what they do, yet still display a remarkable fighting spirit. I expect that the same could be said for Thai women, and the second-hand knowledge I have of the interactions between Thai women and farang men suggests that this is indeed true.

Re: being forced into prostitution: I do not consider the choice between back-breaking work in the paddy fields, exploitative work in sweatshops and prostitution to be a real choice. So I believe that the distinction between 'forced' and 'chosen' prostitution to be a false distinction. What is the point of talking about choice when the options available are equally bad? Most women in prostitution don't want to be doing it. So instead of considering whether or not these women have been physically forced into prostitution, we should be looking at the structures of their lives which mean that prostitution is even an option.

Re: addressing poverty, I certainly agree that we should be working to eradicate poverty. However, there are currently billions of dollars being spent on such programs to prevent trafficking/prostitution, yet millions of women continue to be trafficked every year. These prevention projects may work on a very small-scale - i.e. in the village that is being targetted - but they are completely failing to stop traffic globally. This means we need to think laterally and address the demand side of the equation rather than the supply side.

Chuckd, I'm moving to Bangkok for a year to work there on a government project on the traffic in women and children. I have no particular aims for my year other than to do my job well, to learn first-hand about the traffic in women and children, to do volunteer work and to give back to these women, to learn some Thai and to learn about Thai culture, and to enjoy myself. I don't think these aims are particularly sinister nor ambitious even.

I do not plan, as you suggest, to 'save' a Thai woman from the bar scene, from a life of 'sin' and 'depravity'. Prostitution is not sin, nor a career, it's exploitation. A prostitute woman is not a sinful woman, who needs saving. She is more likely a woman who has limited resources in relation to her needs who needs more options in her life. So if I want to do anything about prostitution, I wouldn't be so imperialist or short-sighted as to try to convince the individual woman to leave prostitution. I would instead try to address the demand for prostitute and trafficked women, and I would try to create real alternatives of earning money to prostitution.

I haven't been to Thailand before, which you should be able to tell from my posts because I have never said anything specific about Thai women's situation, only commented upon the structural aspects. Nor have I ever claimed to speak for Thai women. I do however know a lot about prostitution and trafficking in women in Australia and Asia through my study and work experience.

QUOTE 

I should also emphasise that I am a feminist woman and have no interest in mingling with the men who sustain the exploitation of women and children in Thailand's sex industries. 

This not so subtile sentence implies already that men exploit women and children in...

An accusation that is absolutely not based on facts, at least not on facts as I know them from living in Thailand. Are we here talking about foreigners? About Thai men? All men? Is it based on own experience in Thailand or on hearsay?

Are you serious?? Yes, men do exploit women and children in the sex industry/ies. If you do not know this despite living in Thailand, then you're probably living in a bubble. Whatever you think about prostitution - whether it is inherently exploitative or not - people from all sides of the debate agree that exploitation of women and children in the sex industry exists. Trafficking of women for prostitution is a fact, and Thailand is a major centre for this, as a source, transit and destination country. You may wish to disagree with me, but the Thai government set up a National Secretariat on Trafficking in Women and Children in the Mekon Sub-region; Thailand has been listed in the US State Department's Trafficking in Persons Report as a Tier Two country (which means that it has significant numbers of trafficked women); the Thai government is working with the Australian government on the Asia Regional Cooperation to Prevent People Trafficking project; a report was recently released in Australia documenting hundreds of cases of Thai women trafficked to Australia, and it is widely acknowledged that Thai women are trafficked to Japan, the Middle East and other countries in their thousands, etc. etc. Surely all these things wouldn't be happening if it weren't actually true.

Also, Axel, such statements like "Or most probably it is just a 'radical' way of saying 'you men are all sex-offenders'." suggest to me that you are not so ignorant of feminism as you pretend to be. Either you know more about it than you pretend or you've paid a lot of attention to Yohan's posts.

I don't care if men prefer Thai women or white women. Believe it or not, getting a man is not a top priority for me.

The radical anti-radical???

lol! Samran, I reckon you've hit the nail on the head.

I think it's worth pointing out that 'radical' does not mean 'fanatic'. Holding radical political views does mean that one holds extreme political views (i.e. that one believes that we need a revolution), but to be fanatic about something means that one expresses an uncritical devotion to something.

Marshy, natee1 is talking about hypothetical situations which happen to women, not situations which he himself has experienced. i.e. women experience disparaging retorts to their arguments such as "Is it your time of month?" Natee1, as a man, does not have to put up with this. Try reading things a little less literally and you will understand what he is saying.

Natee1, your understanding of power, privelege and hierarchy is great to see. I hope that others learn from you. Re: the radical feminist statements that all intercourse equals rape, I believe that such statements are more rhetorical than factual. The purpose they serve is to encourage people to really think about all the power relations which underpin the sexual act. I too was offended when I first heard such a statement - did my hetersexual relationship mean that I was not a real feminist? or that I was a victim of rape? I certainly didn't feel like a non-feminist or like a victim! - but when I really thought about the statement, espeically in the context of the so-called sexual liberation of the 1970s, the contemporary pressures on women to have casual sex, the direct pressures from men on women to have sex without a condom and to take sole responsibility for contraception through using the contraceptive pill, the greater risks of getting HIV/AIDS and other STDs for a woman (women are two to three times more likely of getting HIV from a man than a man is from a woman), the greater responsibility women have for raising children if they get pregnant, the stigma attached to abortions and often the illegality of abortions etc. etc. I could see why a feminist might say that all intercourse is rape. (Hope the long unwieldy sentnce makes sense!)

Snark, another voice of sanity and reason!

and Otherstuff, certainly at least a voice of reason. (Though don't think that you can get away with such back-handed 'compliments'!... After such comments, if I were to ever have a beer with you, I would expect you to take on the traditional male role and pay for the drinks... :oB)) I really don't think though the radical feminists have 'hijacked' the movement, certainly not to the extent that radical feminists are the dominant voices within feminism. I think that the backlash against feminism that started in the 80s and the emergence of new feminisms championed by Camille Paglia and Katie Roiphe are the reasons why many women today do not identify as feminists.

Yohan, I have replied to you as much as possible, but find some of your statements not worth the effort and don't always find your points easy to decipher. You seem particularly concerned about people's views on so-called interracial marriage. Honestly, I have no problem with partnerships between people from different cultures. I do object to the phenomenon of 'mail order brides,' and I do wonder about the power differentials in a marriage between a rich Western male and a less asset-rich, Majority World woman. I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that all such marriages would be exploitative, involve abuse of the woman, or place her in a highly vulnerable situation but that there is a greater likelihood of the woman being abused in any relationship where she is dependent upon the man. For example, Filipina brides in Australia are six times more likely to be the victims of spousal homicide than any other group of wives, and experience higher rates of domestic violence - this is because they are far away from their support networks and thus vulnerable to extreme exploitation and violence. There are very good reasons why feminists are concerned about such marriages. Even the Australian government has acknowledged that there is a particular problem prevalent in Fillipina-Australian unions, and now all Filipinas who come to Australia on a spouse visa receive information about the occurrence of domestic violence against Filipinas in Australia, their rights in Australia, and services that are available to them in Australia such as refuges, telephone hotlines, financial aid, etc., prior to their departure from the Philippines.

how do i leave my feminism at home?? Feminism is not some kind appendage I can put on and take off whenever I feel like it... it's me.

And I certainly don't think that all Thai women are meek and submissive and have never said such a thing. I'm a feminist!! As if I'd believe or say a thing like that!

We need radical feminists everywhere.

If they really wanted to make a big change, why don't they first try going to all of the arabic countries where women are by and large treated far worse?

Spee, by saying that Arabic women are treated worse , you are saying that women in Thailand are treated badly. And there have already been huge feminist campaigns around female genital surgery, which have resulted in FGS being outlawed in a number of countries, Egypt being one example.

Amyji, who are these radical feminists controlling the education agenda?? They certainly don't control it here in Australia. And honestly, radical feminists do not control the academy in the US either. That's kind of inherent in being radical - you are automatically on the margins (though of course I find it sad that it is radical for women to have all their body hair, to call for an end to violence against women, to exercise autonomy etc.).

Equity feminist= liberal feminist. You want to be equal to men. Why be equal to men - and everything that entails, such as militarisation, state deregulation and liberal markets, colonialism/post-colonialism etc - when we could be liberated from all that?

And darling, you don't need make-up!! It's OK to be yourself! Love yourself as you are!

Jeepz, what's the relevance of individual choice when one suffers structural violence such as gender, race and class-based discrimination? When choices are extremely limited, it is more illuminating to look at structures in order to understand an individual's life than it is to look at their 'choices'.

Jeepz, some feminists would take great offense at that - there are some who believe that wearing stilettoes is empowering, that using one's looks in, for eg., business deals is a legitimate use of a woman's body, or that declaring one's inner slut is a sign of liberation. These feminists would declare themselves to be extremely feminine.

A radical feminist ... in Thailand ? ... never

I can name you _at least_ one rad fem in Thailand! And I'm going to be there soon, so that'll make it at least two...

Kasi, atheism is the belief that there are no God/gods/Goddess/goddesses. If this is the height of human arrogance, then I guess that's where I'm at. I'm certainly not a bible-basher.

Yohan, your disdain for radical feminists and even women's rights activists is not surprising, considering you are clearly not a particularly enlightened person. However, your disdain for human rights activists is peculiar and disturbing. I have never met anyone who believes that humans should not all enjoy the right to life and the right to dignity. You must have led a very deprived life to have such views and to think that human rights activists merit contempt.

Duckthai, you say

One must start somewhere perhaps it should be the Bars or perhaps go the whole hog and Legalise Prostitution. The Government can then claim Tax and put it to good use.

What do you believe a good use for prostitution taxes would be? And why do you really think that legalising prostitution is a good idea?

BFD

big enough deal for you to bother replying to it...

meemiathai, thanks for the welcome!

Yohan, your change in language from using the term 'radical feminist' (though admittedly, you used this term without actually understanding what it means) to 'femi-nazi' is indicative of your deep-seated hatred of women. True, you have never used the word hate in your posts here, but the lack of respect you have for intelligent, assertive women is indicative of your true of opinion of women and their place in this world.

BTW, Rush Limbaugh refers to feminists as femi-nazis - 'femi-nazi' is not what feminists are generally called in the USA. Furthermore, this is a highly offensive term, not just to Jewish people but to all people who abhor Nazism and what happened during the Holocaust. I would have thought that you as an Austrian would be a little bit more sensitive to that than you are.

And Germaine Greer is Australian not Canadian!!

And I'm Australian too, not American.

most liveable equal with vancouver

... canberra, eh? .... my condolences

Bangkok should be quite an experience after Melbs... I hear that the air there is great, of a quality to rival Melbourne's.

are you a melbournian too?

lol

yohan, you've got some serious issues... what on earth happened to you that you hate women so?

Axel, don't worry, I won't be staging any one-person rallies in BKK. I'm sure I'll be able to keep my feminism well-hidden from all the sensitive Thais .

Yohan, how sweet to see that you're following me... Lucky for me that I'm a woman, not a girl, and will not be getting married.

For more lessons on feminism, maybe check out my views elsewhere on this site. And now, back to BKK!

Marshy, you got a little anger issue going on there? Chill, it's OK, you _don't_ have to listen to me or my 'bullshit'.

Yohan, I'm an atheist and I don't have the desire to waste my energy helping you.

I'm really not sure that you know what radical feminism is - remember that are a large number of different feminisms. If you really want to understand radical feminism, so that you can actually argue with me, read Sheila Jeffreys, Andrea Dworkin, Carol Pateman, Catherine Mackinnon or Germaine Greer.

I don't quite understand all the points you are trying to make, as you do not write coherently, but I think your fifth point was basically that it is up to women prsotitutes to stop prostitution. That seems to me to be more typical of a church attitude - saying that prostitute women are fallen women and sinners - than anything I've said. I believe that prostitution is a system of violence and abuse, that it is more often bad for women than good, that women in the industry should receive support and have the right for prostitution to be as lucrative and safe as possible while they're in it, and that men have the responsibility to stop prostitution.

Konangrit, not sure why you want to know about my views on sex. I generally hold radical political views if that answers your question.

I certainly do not dismiss the abuse suffered by male prostitutes and have a great amount of sympathy for them. The reason why I mentioned them was to pre-empt any kind of peurile argument along the lines of: "if you call prostitution is abuse of women, then what do you say about men prostitutes?"

I believe that most people in prostitution do not want to be there. This is based upon my work with women prostitutes in Australia, my research into prostitution and trafficking of women in Asia, and my extensive contact with people who have worked on these issues around the world. Most women in prostitution are survivors of abuse - I don't like to call them victims, but abuse and exploitation is an integral part of prostitution, not a minor thing which only happens to a minority of women. In fact, 50 - 90% of women in prostitution in Asia and Europe are victims of trafficking, so clearly, the 'victims' of prostitution constitute a majority.

I certainly do not want the sex industry driven underground - I want it eradicated. Big difference. The closest we've come to an ideal model is the Swedish model whereby the women prostitutes are completely decriminalised and only the men, the buyers of sex, are criminalised.

Axel and otherstuff, thanks heaps for taking the time to give me such useful

advice.

Axel, I think you might be a little confused as to what feminism is... Feminism is a radical theory which proposes that women are actually human beings too... Seriously, feminism is a theory which at its most basic level - because there are many different streams of feminism - recognises a history of inequality between men and women and says that women should have political, economic and social rights that are equal to those of men.

A feminist is more likely to establish a women's refuge, organise an awareness-raising campaign about domestic violence, or run for parliament than she is to have a candle-lit dinner with a minor! And as feminism is not a mode of sexuality, there aren't really any particularly feminist ways of being affectionate in public, so hopefully you won't have a problem with me being feminist in public!

Wow, such vitriol and drivel.

Mai Krap, perhaps you should actually engage with my feminist 'b.s.' arguments rather than demonstrating your poor command of the English language. You might actually learn something! You would certainly exercise your brain.

Yohan... Where do I start? Your post is so preposterous that it is hilarious! I think you need to go back and re-sit Feminism 101. Firstly, there is no such thing as a radical feminist man! A man can be pro-feminist, but he certainly can't be a feminist, seeing as how men cannot speak on behalf of women (though they try...).

Secondly:

Europe or in the USA, which are female dominated societies

ROTFLMAO! Maybe you should let the women there know that. Because they still think that they're underrepresented in the decision-making spheres of public society, that they still do not have equal pay with men, that they do more housework than men, that men are still trying to control their bodies (see what Bush wants to do with abortion in the US) etc. etc.

I do however agree that we should start in Minority World countries in our attempts to reduce prostitution, because the superior and unjust purchasing power of men in these countries allows them to satisfy their demand for prostitute women all over the globe. If we tackled demand from these men, we would certainly reduce numbers of trafficked women and therefore numbers of all prostituted women.

Thirdly, as a radical feminist, I can say without equivocation that radical feminists are against the prostitution of women. I have spoken to women about this (and I am a woman - surely this gives me greater credibility here than you?!) - radical feminists and women in prostitution. I know what I'm talking about.

Fourth, re: your inability in Austria to attract women without paying for their bodies, perhaps you should just abstain till women want to sleep with you rather than maintaining and increasing the demand for prostitute women. Oh wait! As you said you can't get European women to sleep with you without paying for it so you'll be abstaining from sex forever... oh well, you'll just have to masturbate then.

Taxexile, seeing as how you're clearly such an expert in femininity - being a woman yourself? - perhaps you can explain what this 'cerebral' experience of femininity is?

Stumonster, you have an excellent point. Prostitution does seem to be the logical conclusion of capitalism, but there is still something different in kind, not just degree, about prostituting one's body to be used as a receptacle for another person's semen to prostituting oneself as a wage slave. Prostitution is still present in communist societies so it's clearly not just tied to capitalism.