wjta

In respones to Sriracha John, I think you are expressing a kind of a naive and idealistic view that will not last very long in the Kingdom. Taksinism is a big improvement over the musical government the Thais had since WW2, which was better than outright Fascism, which they had previously, and that was better than the system of absolute monarchy aqnd slavery they had before that.

Thais have always lived in slavery and for that matter we Americans working like slaves to pay our mortgages are not much better off. If you start questioning the status quo, how do you explain charging people to occupy space (rent and property tax) and fining them for working (income tax).

I'm not sure a country like Thailand is the best environment in which to question govt policies and seek social justice, although those are highly commendable inclinations. Perhaps you should visit India or mainland China and then you will appreciate how kind and reasonable the Thais really are (it is all relative).

Thailand is a Kingdom and whoever is in power in Thailand can and will be as arbitrary as only the insanely rich and powerful can be. What I've found that works in Thailand is a sincere smile, humility, obedience, generosity, and more smiling. Actually, living there is good training to be a Buddhist. You might as well become a Buddhist and learn to bow, so you can get enlightened while you get your visa renewed

The mind boggles that this is the kind of crime that gets attention in the Kingdom. Glad to know that is the worst sort of thing that goes on in such a well-regulated and well-run country ;-)

It was probably the sex toys that got people's attention. Thais love to be shocked and titilated about that sort of thing.

BTW: does anybody know if there are actual laws against "indecent" devices, porn, and that sort of thing? I can't say I have ever seen a "marital aids" store in LOS.

Nice to have a posting from Dragen, who actually knows what cohousing is. I'd like to connect with a group of people who are interested in doing permaculture in the context of a cohousing development. There is a couple near Pitsanulok Sawowanee and Jim, whom I haven't met:

http://www.ncacs.org/news_thailand.htm

They had a permaculture training there last year that I missed cause I was stuck at my desk in the USA. They recently had problems with their neighbors and an out-of-control agricultural fire that well illustrate the problems of trying to live in a remote location in Thailand without a support group.

I think Thailand is the absolute best place for cohousing because there are no zoning restrictions regarding mixed use, so you can have businesses, retail sales, short-term rentals, restaurants, massage, etc. on a single site, which makes the whole thing more economically and culturally interesting. And the amenities and services that can be shared in Thailand are pretty much unlimited and the shared cost would be minimal.

Also, the importance of group ownership in Thailand is greater than elsewhere, because you are otherwise at the mercy of your neighbors. E.g. Taksin might turn that beautiful hill next door into a gravel quarry, and even if you live with bars on your windows you still lose your stuff when you are away from home. Cohousing also addresses the issue of boredom and isolation that otherwise afflicts the beautiful Thai countryside.

That said, there is the well-known bar to ownership by foreigners. However, I suspect there are creative solutions, such as a 90-year lease from a Thai corporation with shares in the corporation, or even outright ownership of a condominium, which I believe is allowed under some circumstances.

The comment about water is key. I (my wife, that is) has 20 acres (about 50 rai) in Bang Krathum, near Plok, but we have never been able to do anything with it. The wells keep going dry, or people steal the pumps, or the pumps burn out, etc. etc.

If you have land on a canal with reliable clean water that you can get out with one of those big blue pipes and a small tractor, it would be a lot more fun than drilling one well after another trying to get water from 30 meters deep.

And bars on the windows didn't help us. The speed freaks came in through the roof. Next time I build a house in Thailand, it will be inside a really nice, tall fence with a good alarm system and 24x7 security.

I'd like to start a plant nursery in Thailand. There aren't that many places that provide any real variety. There are a lot of things that aren't commonly grown that would be worth a try, and it would be fun (maybe not that profitable) to give people a hand. Things like cherimoyas and hybrid Hawain plumerias.

I'm littering the whole site with my idea that going it alone is too much work. What is so bad about cooperation, anyway? Somebody told me I should watch the "Beach" as a warning against trying to create a utopia in LOS. I'm personally more frightened by the movie "Mosquito Coast."

I'm hoping to find a balance between being the only farang in the whole Amphoe and trying to live in a poverty-stricken hippie commune in Koh Pipi with a bunch of escapist backpackers. But I realize that Thailand is a land of extremes.

I tried for 10 years to live Barn Nok in Bang Krathum, about 40 klicks from Plok in Central Thailand. I spent enough money to buy a house in Phuket and have nothing to show for it but 20 useless acres and a couple of houses nobody wants to live in. And *the* most beautiful garden in the Amphoe :-)

The family all wound up moving to Bangkok to find work. The local speed addicts stripped everything out of the house--bars on the windows didn't even slow them down--they came through the roof!

I still love the Thai countryside, but I've learned a hard lesson. My dream is to find a group of farangs to build a cooperative housing development about 30 klicks from a major airport. Bars on the windows make me feel like I"m in prison, and they don't do any good. What you need are good high fences (tastefully setback with nice landscaping of course), well-trained, 24x7 security guards, the best alarm system money can buy, and a friendly relationship with the local police.

I would never want to live with the family of a Thai woman. She gets caught up in their world and forgets that you even exist. Better to get all the women away from their families, with guest quarters so the in-laws can pay extended visits. And everybody should stay busy helping upgrade the surrounding community as much as necessary to stay out of trouble. A much better way to spend one's time than drunk or gambling (or both).

Cooperation among farangs might not work, but I know for sure that living in an extended Thai family didn't work for me. I'm not likely to try that again! If I'm the only one in LOS who thinks like this, I'll probably beat a hasty retreat!

I'm moving to Phuket and don't feel the least bit worried about the warnings. Even if they attack Phuket, what percentage of the farang population do you think they could take out? In Bali, which was pretty spectacular, they got a few hundered out of millions of tourists that (used to) go there every year.

Even if the situation in Phuket is comparable to that in Bali before the blast (which it's not), the odds of getting blown up there are nothing compared to getting killed on an American highway.

I think the only hope for peace with Muslims is for people to start recognizing the good in Islam and actively promoting the moderates. If you read history, you'll see that most of our Western freedoms are the direct result of the confrontation between Islam and the Catholic Church. Without Mohammed, Weterners might still think the sun revolves around a flat earth and might still get locked in a dungeon (or burned at the stake) for publicly stating otherwise.

Mohammed was the most modern man of his day. His message either directly or indirectly freed the world from the stranglehold of priests. Unfortunately, Islamic societies in their turn became dominated by mullahs. That is incredibly ironic, but no more so than the merciless behavior of Christians, who claim to follow the great Semetic prophet of forgiveness and peace.

Today, Islam has been infiltrated by Wahabi fantatics, being funded and exported by the Saudis as a way of keeping their hold on Mecca and the oil fields. The Bush dynasty is starting one war of distraction after another while expunging anything from the record that might incriminate the Saudi royal family.

The real solution is to get all the Muslim teenagers away from fanatics and into co-ed university dorms with Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and Christians. And give everyone a good history lesson about how much blood has been shed in the name of religion.

I'm surprised that they have a "sliding scale" based on country of origin. That seems to indicate they are just trying to milk us, but not so hard we kick over the pail.

I guess they charge us Americans more because they think we have more money. Maybe they did some research on our retirement systems. The 60,000 baht per month is pretty close to the typical retirement benefit for Social Security, but that could just be a coincidence.

Do you think the same rules apply to retirement visas? I just got mine and I'm on my way to Phuket end of June. I'm concerned about the residency requirement as my stated place of residence might change.

As I understand it, immigration isn't saying you have to keep money in the bank--just showing 20,000 baht a month will do the same. That seems about right for supporting a family in Thailand at a reasonable standard.

If we aren't paying income tax or property in Thailand, and we live simply and don't pay a lot of VAT, who is paying for all the infrastructure that we enjoy? Compared to other countires with a low cost of living, Thailand's roads and airports and trains are not so bad, you know.

I think what the Thais mean by "bad" foreigners are those who take as much as they can get while giving as little as possible in return. I don't think they care *that* much how we make our money, as long as we spend some of it in Thailand and don't make trouble while their supervisor is watching.

For solitary retirement, they ask for 60,000 baht a month or 800,000 baht in the bank. Explain the logic of that to me! Maybe they are taking into account the costs of purchasing companionship ;-)

Nobody in the US even bothers to complain about the INS or expects them to be rational. The fact that people are still complaining about immigration in Thailand seems like a good sign to me!

It just isn't helpful to confuse cohousing with communes and other ideological forms of intentional community. Rule number one in the current cohousing movement is to avoid all ideology. What I am talking about is simply a way to design communities to recreate old-fashioned neighborhoods where people used to know their neighbors.

Cohousing communities are prospering all over the states. They sell out before the foundations are poured and they have the same investment value as any other condominium investment.

Khun Larry provides rational discouragement for which I'm grateful. The point of a forum should be rational discussion and not hysteria and misinformation. I've made previous attempts to generate interest on the ground in Chiengmai where I lived for about a year (I have an 8-year old son born there in 1995) so I have no illusions about how easy it is to get farangs in Thailand to do anything.

The point of my posting was to see if anything had changed, and I'm grateful for rational criticism about the viability of the ideas I'm proposing. The change that I'm observing is that the U.S. is becoming an increasingly unfriendly place for middle-class retirees, while Thailand appears to be opening its doors. I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next five years.

Given how easy it is now to get a retirement visa to live in Thailand (just got mine :-) and the number of baby boomers in the States with minimal retirement portfolios (like me :-), I don't think the idea of building community in Thailand is as absurd as trying to retire in the U.S. on social security. I may change my mind about it myself, but I think it is an idea worthy of serious debate without confusing the real issues with hysterical stereotypes.

Despite the obstacles to ownership, etc. I know for a fact that one can build something very nice in Thailand with reasonable resale value using the equity from a single California home, where the property taxes alone are enough to live comfortably in Thailand. Something extraordinary could be created through a cooperative venture, but not everyone who reads this forum may be able to appreciate that vision.

Hey Taxelle, I'm amazed at your superficial reply. Do you think that "the Beach" had anything to do with Thailand? Is what you know about Thailand (and life) based on such bad movies? If so, you must believe that there are man-eating sharks in Koh Pipi! You must be afraid to go swimming in Thailand, which is nobody's loss but your own!

Cohousing is about shared investment and responsibility with traditional forms of ownership. It isn't an escapist fantasy for drifters and pot-heads. It simply questions the wisdom of designing communities as though automobiles are more important than people. People who just want to take what they can get out of life while giving as little as possible in return need not apply.

If the tone of the replies in this forum is any indicator, ex-pats may have little interest in actually *building* anything in Thailand. Sadly, Thailand is full of pretas (hungry ghosts), who have rejected their ancestors and wander endlessly hoping to find something to ease the ache in their huge distended bellies. But their mouths are so tiny, they can't actually swallow anything.

I can only pray that the Mother of Compassion opens all our mouths so we can enjoy the banquet of love that this world offers!

I've learned the hard way that having good neighbors is even more important in Thailand than it is in the US. You can't change your neighbors and certain kinds of neighbors *will* drive you crazy as there are no real noise ordinances or zoning regulations to protect your privacy and sanity. I've built three houses and purchased a lot of property in Thailand and I *know* I can do better working with people with complimentary skills and strengths. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Instead of reinventing the wheel, I'd like to put my energy into some shared infrastructure--both legal and physical. I'm pretty confident that a condominium development could be defined that would safeguard everyone's interests.

Anyway, I'm moving to Phuket in July looking to connect with ecologically and community oriented folks who might want to start something in Phuket or elsewhere. I think building a mix of vacation rentals+owner-occupied homes around shared amenities with tasteful Asian architecture and modern floor-plans would ensure value, high occupancy, and good neighbors.

You can e-mail me at [email protected]. I don't mind approaches from fair real estate agents, but I won't buy anything until I've been there for a while find out if anyone else is interested in sharing.

You asked a question regarding land ownership. I partly addressed that, but I think you mean as a foreigner.

I'd suggest putting the land title in the name of a corporation owned 51% by Thais which then leases the land to the individual owners for three consecutive 30-year leases.

Owners get a 90-year lease, all of their personal improvements, and a share in the corporation.

I'd need to talk to a Thai lawyer to work out the details, but this much should work.

My friend in Phuket just paid $250,000 USD for a 90-year lease on a condo there, so the idea of three consecutive leases appears to be valid.

My e-mail address is [email protected]. Koh Chang is a little remote for me, but if there is an airport nearby and plenty of fresh water, I'd like to take a look. I'll be in Phuket at the beginning of July, but I'm just renting and can hop on a plane to Bangkok to visit whenever.

Cohousing has worked out what does and doesn't work in community through practical experience. My recollection of the key principles are:

1. Use tried and tested methods of holding title. Usually a condominium association works best. Everyone needs to be free to own and sell their own share.

2. No ideological bar to ownership. Anyone who can contribute their share of money or sweat equity is welcome. This ensures personal freedom and liquidity of the investment.

3. Design for both privacy and daily contact. This means encouraging people to walk instead of drive wherever possible.

4. Maximize sharing. One big common swimming pool, vegie garden, commercial kitchen, or party room is nicer than everyone trying to build and maintain their own. Everyone still has a private kitchen--common meals are best when not compulsory.

Let me know what you think.

William

Has anyone thought of the possibilities of cohousing development in Thailand? It is very successful in Europe (esp Denmark), but has limited success in the US because of zoning regulations there. The idea is to design for the right balance of privacy and community instead of centering everything around the bloody automobile.

We farangs drive up property values when we build houses. Why not work together so we benefit each other? Cohousing provides all the benefits of an upscale development at the cost of land + infrastructure. Plus we can design what we like. Myself, I'm into organic vegies (permaculture/biodynamic), tropical waterscape, and Asian-inspired architecture (ala Aman Puri). I guess I like Phuket as a location, but I'm flexible--I do need DSL, though.