Western Buddhists

[thaibebop]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

[jumnien]

I think if you read thru the recent anti-Christian missionary thread you will understand some of the fear and biases of many westerners towards Judeo-Christian thought, action and theology. Buddhism's migration to the west has allowed many of those to address the fundamentals of spiritual growth not by confronting these specific fears and biases, but by bypassing them altogether. My life was saved in the San Geronimo Valley of Northern California at Spirit Rock Meditation Center with the likes of Jack Kornfield, Ajahn Jumnien, Sylvia Boorstein and many others and especially the book"Thoughts Without a Thinker" by Mark Epstein. I don't know much about Shirley Maclaine, didn't she do a movie with Jack Nicholson once? I associate the name more with new age than Buddhism.

[thaibebop]

I think if you read thru the recent anti-Christian missionary thread you will understand some of the fear and biases of many westerners towards Judeo-Christian thought, action and theology. Buddhism's migration to the west has allowed many of those to address the fundamentals of spiritual growth not by confronting these specific fears and biases, but by bypassing them altogether. My life was saved in the San Geronimo Valley of Northern California at Spirit Rock Meditation Center with the likes of Jack Kornfield, Ajahn Jumnien, Sylvia Boorstein and many others and especially the book"Thoughts Without a Thinker" by Mark Epstein. I don't know much about Shirley Maclaine, didn't she do a movie with Jack Nicholson once? I associate the name more with new age than Buddhism.

Well, yes, that was the point I was making. That many are treating Buddhism as a new age movement rather than the respected philosophy it is.

[jumnien]

I've never thought of Buddhism as a respected philosophy. I've thought of it as the religion of millions of people around the world and also as a way of life to be practiced, not studied like a rat in a laboratory.

[thaibebop]

I've never thought of Buddhism as a respected philosophy. I've thought of it as the religion of millions of people around the world and also as a way of life to be practiced, not studied like a rat in a laboratory.

<flame deleted, play nice please>

Edited February 3, 2007 by Totster

[dukkha]

Just a thought, I have a friend, an internationally respected Professor of Epidemilogy who has spent most of his life working in Buddhist countries, he is an intellectual giant, and like me, dumped catholocism decades ago, calls himself a humanist...he once said to me..."I consider Buddhism, after Hinduism, one of the most selfish religions/philosophies around"....obviously his opinion but interested on any one elses take on his statement..after working as a doctor in Thailand for a decade in remote areas followed by decades working in Lao and Tibet I consider he has some insights..agree with the take on Mz McLaine and Mr Gere, so many westerners see Buddhism as a new accessory often desribed as "Tibetan Chic"...if many westerners proclaim to be Buddhists I think they need to look at the basic precepts as laid down by The Lord Buddha and just see how they measure up, after 7 years of life in LOS I do not consider myself as a Buddhist but find some of the teachings commensensical and am comforted by the lack of Theocracy that is followed...not the punishing variety of Judeo-Christianity that pervades the dogma etc.. Dukkha

[BigSnake]

There are many good and faithfully western Buddhist, in Thailand. I have met a few.

[garro]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

This is only my opinion. Throughout the history of Buddhism it has moved from country to country and in doing so has been influenced by the country in which it has been adopted. Thus Thai Buddhism may appear in many ways different from Chinese Buddhism which was highly influenced by Daoism. As Buddhism moves to the west it will likewise appear in different forms than in other countries; this is natural. While the outward form may change the central message does not.

I know nothing about the Western Buddhists you mention, except maybe seen them in film, but I have met many sincere Western Buddhists who like me try and live by at least the five precepts suggested by the Buddha. My understanding of these precepts are that they are not commandments but wise ways of living. I also feel that anyone following at least these five can consider themselves on the Buddhist path; if they so wish. The Buddha offered a way to reach enlightenment which involves a lot more than just following the precepts but they are a start.

[lannarebirth]

...he once said to me..."I consider Buddhism, after Hinduism, one of the most selfish religions/philosophies around"....obviously his opinion but interested on any one elses take on his statement..

I think people who are selfish, find much in Buddhism to self justify their selfishness. Of course there's much more about generosity and compassion, but that's not what they came for.

[camerata]

What is a "western Buddhist," anyway? Maclaine has never claimed to be a Buddhist, AFAIK. She believes she was Cleopatra in a previous incarnation but her stated objective is "aligning the spirit with the Godforce."

Sounds like a new-ager to me. But I don't see what harm the new-agers and neo-Buddhists do if they're into crystals, pyramids and Indigo Children.

Richard Gere seems like a serious Buddhist to me. The Dalai Lama took him on as a student in an orthodox tradition and he seems fairly articulate about it in interviews I've read.

"Western Buddhism," on the other hand, seems to be Buddhism largely stripped of cultural rites and rituals, with a dash of materialism and psychotherapy thrown in for good measure. Time will tell whether it works or not.

[camerata]

"I consider Buddhism, after Hinduism, one of the most selfish religions/philosophies around"....obviously his opinion but interested on any one elses take on his statement..

I think you just have to look at the example of the Buddha himself - gave up everything, six years' hard work attaining enlightenment and then 40 years helping others reach the same goal. If he'd decided to run a soup kitchen instead his actions would have benefitted hundreds instead of millions.

[chownah]

Strange to hear the term "selfish" in relation to the Buddha's teachings since one of the Buddha's basic doctrines was that no matter how hard you search you will never find anything that constitutes your "self" and that one of the major tasks to accomplish along the Path is to entirely eradicate your sense of self...basically that your sense of what is your "self" is a delusion....this is sometimes called the right view of anatta...hard to see how "selfish" could really apply.

Chownah

[autonomous_unit]

I'm not trying to promote any particular view here, but I imagine the "selfish" analysis would follow from the same school of thought that is quick to focus on how the general populace seems to practice something pretty far removed from the teachings of the Buddha. I.e. they've use "Buddhism" to refer to the organized religion and its mass of cultural practitioners rather than the core teachings that transcend culture. Without knowing more about the original guy quoted as saying this, it is of course mere speculation. Another explanation could be simply a bias towards a more evangelical approach. It is hard to really say what is selfish and what is not selfish when it comes to teaching, isn't it? Particularly if you accept that you might be wrong...

As for the prominent westerners who seem to have a new age form of study... I guess the real question is whether they are having any success at all in shrugging off their "delusions"? They face the same challenge as a wealthy Thai person in terms of eventually reconciling these new ideas with their relative wealth, but they have not had an entire lifetime to strike a balance in their minds. Maybe it is worth noting that they have at least shown interest in looking for something "more true" or more fulfilling beyond their current lifestyles?

I am not, nor would I claim to be, a Buddhist. But, I have refered to the general philosophical and metaphysical concepts in trying to explain my own personal views to people who asked...

[thaibebop]

I'm not trying to promote any particular view here, but I imagine the "selfish" analysis would follow from the same school of thought that is quick to focus on how the general populace seems to practice something pretty far removed from the teachings of the Buddha. I.e. they've use "Buddhism" to refer to the organized religion and its mass of cultural practitioners rather than the core teachings that transcend culture. Without knowing more about the original guy quoted as saying this, it is of course mere speculation. Another explanation could be simply a bias towards a more evangelical approach. It is hard to really say what is selfish and what is not selfish when it comes to teaching, isn't it? Particularly if you accept that you might be wrong...

As for the prominent westerners who seem to have a new age form of study... I guess the real question is whether they are having any success at all in shrugging off their "delusions"? They face the same challenge as a wealthy Thai person in terms of eventually reconciling these new ideas with their relative wealth, but they have not had an entire lifetime to strike a balance in their minds. Maybe it is worth noting that they have at least shown interest in looking for something "more true" or more fulfilling beyond their current lifestyles?

I am not, nor would I claim to be, a Buddhist. But, I have refered to the general philosophical and metaphysical concepts in trying to explain my own personal views to people who asked...

Good post!

[chownah]

It is my understanding that Buddhists with European or North American backgrounds are much more likely than Asian Buddhists to actually study what the Buddha taught.

It is my understanding that among Asian Buddhists mostly only the monks make any effort to study the Scriptures and even among the monks there is a large percentage that know practically nothing.

In the west a person must make some effort to learn about Buddhism; in Asia you are immersed in a secular version of it from birth. To be a monk in Thailand does not make you an object of scrutiny which it does in the west. Perhaps it is a case of familiarity breeding complacency.

This runs counter to what Thaibebop has experienced as expressed in the original post....I don't know why.

Chownah

[banchang]

I read that western converts to buddism are just athiests that cant do away with the training wheels.

[chownah]

I read that western converts to buddism are just athiests that cant do away with the training wheels.

Cute comment. What does it mean?

Chownah

[banchang]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

[chownah]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Thanks for your views on this. Your description does sound like the kind of people that Thaibebop seems to be running into lately...or at least this would be consistent with what seems to be bothering him lately.

Chownah

[JimsKnight]

A work collegue of mine was very critical of religion and actually stated the cons that many religions have he missed out Buddhism though and I asked him what the con of Buddhism was and he stated :

"Too damned liberal" He went on to say how buddists can interpret their faith too much to the point of farce and theres no concept of actual divine punishment / laws to practicioners of that faith.

But then isn't Richard Gere a buddhist? He said on TV years ago that technically Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion as such. So by rights someone who is Roman Catholic could follow the ways of Buddha as a lifes journey? (Although Technically it would be breaking a commandment).

[camerata]

"Too damned liberal" He went on to say how buddists can interpret their faith too much to the point of farce and theres no concept of actual divine punishment / laws to practicioners of that faith.

He thinks that's a disadvantage? I would say it's the other way round. With a "faith," everything is taken on trust so you need the threat of divine punishment to keep people in line. For a serious Buddhist, good behaviour brings its own reward in this life, regardless of what happens in the next. You could call it a kind of life-enhancement system.

But then isn't Richard Gere a buddhist? He said on TV years ago that technically Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion as such. So by rights someone who is Roman Catholic could follow the ways of Buddha as a lifes journey? (Although Technically it would be breaking a commandment).

I think it would be difficult since it's a premise of Buddhism that we have no immortal soul.

[thaibebop]

It is my understanding that Buddhists with European or North American backgrounds are much more likely than Asian Buddhists to actually study what the Buddha taught.

It is my understanding that among Asian Buddhists mostly only the monks make any effort to study the Scriptures and even among the monks there is a large percentage that know practically nothing.

In the west a person must make some effort to learn about Buddhism; in Asia you are immersed in a secular version of it from birth. To be a monk in Thailand does not make you an object of scrutiny which it does in the west. Perhaps it is a case of familiarity breeding complacency.

This runs counter to what Thaibebop has experienced as expressed in the original post....I don't know why.

Chownah

I am beginging to think that the difference is marketing. Commerical Buddhism, perhaps? There are people who are studying Buddhism and those that buy little Buddhas from Urban Outfitters to sit on their dressers and call themselves Buddhists. Normally these folks might have a hippie bent let's say and want to make themselves seem difference from other people and having a "strange" religion in America sure makes you different.

[thaibebop]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Why not include Americans?

[thaibebop]

"Too damned liberal" He went on to say how buddists can interpret their faith too much to the point of farce and theres no concept of actual divine punishment / laws to practicioners of that faith.

He thinks that's a disadvantage? I would say it's the other way round. With a "faith," everything is taken on trust so you need the threat of divine punishment to keep people in line. For a serious Buddhist, good behaviour brings its own reward in this life, regardless of what happens in the next. You could call it a kind of life-enhancement system.

But then isn't Richard Gere a buddhist? He said on TV years ago that technically Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion as such. So by rights someone who is Roman Catholic could follow the ways of Buddha as a lifes journey? (Although Technically it would be breaking a commandment).

I think it would be difficult since it's a premise of Buddhism that we have no immortal soul.

I agree, a benefit to be sure. I think the philosophy/religion whatever you want to call it still makes one stop and think about the issue at hand rather then what blanket response workds for dealing with (fill in the blank).

[phibunmike]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

I like Jerry Garcia, but that is irrelevant here I think.

I have always been an atheist; having said that, I believe that doing good is a good thing to do, and I have this idea that if you do a good deed, that good will somehow come back to you. Then I met Buddhism, and it really matches my life philosophy in many ways. Not as a religion, just that he and I agree on many points, and he has somehow expressed them better than I have ever done. I am not sure how Buddhist I could ever be, because there are some "sins" I really rather enjoy and don't want to give up. But, again, Buddhism compensates for that by saying you don't have to be perfect, as long as you do some good. Overall I like it. I don't want trainer wheels, I don't want a god, but a good mentor is invaluable.

Cheers,

Mike

[IvanLaw]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

I feel you have made a very sweeping statement.

I presume that you have studied or read extensively on various religions/ believes that have lead you to your conclusions.

Personally as a child I was encouraged by my parents to feel and try various beliefs from CE to Judaism, from Wicker to Druid.

Never found that I was "Happy" or at Peace with any particular one.

Travelled to India and eventually Thailand to try to lean a little more, Very lucky that I found a teacher who had patience and time to talk to me.

I believe that Buddhism is the nearest that I have found to a philosophy/ way of life that I can believe in and follow.

I am married to a Thai and her family find it strange that I spend extended periods in the family Temple.

Only my opinion please try to find something to follow and believe,

I wish you well

Regards

Ivan

[bina]

from the age of ten i have been a buddhist.born and raised in a jewish secular family . strong belief in ethics/cultural judaism etc . socialist politically active parents. i went to a quaker school. now living in israel (no not because of the zionist dream, just married into israel so to speak). was a buddhist before i met the thai workers here, and before i married a thai man who happend to spend more then the 3 week to 3 month time period as a monk.

however, his buddhism and my buddhism are different. he is thai village born and raised. he meditaties when his mind is 'attentative and empty'. i meditate to get my mind attentative and 'empty'.

he, unlike many village buddhists, doesn not believe in ghosts et al since he's never seen them. seeing old crippled people and being compassionate (massage, feeding them etc) doesnt phase him. but jai ron maak if something doesnt go correctly. he does keep the ususal buddhist stuff on an alter over our heads in the bedroom.

i am very jai yen. complacent maybe. i dont like to get involved in other peopels' business. i do what i have to do w.o worrying about what someone else is doing. i seem to be more non attached then him to things, and problems, etc.

the more years i spend in israel, the more surrealistic this country seems and the religous base that the country is built on. and the more buddhist in a sense i become. my thai buddhist husband thinks that the people here are absolutely bonkers that they can believe in a sort of higher power ordering people around, making wierd rules (talking about orthodox jews here since we dont have too many christians running around here)like not mixing milk and meat, etc. i have had a hard time trying to explain the idea of 'god' to him.

so if someone decides he/she is suddenly a buddhist and put a statue on their shelf, so what?! if because of that , they do one good thing in their life, then, as the jews put it: if u save one soul, you ahve saved a thousand. so who cares why.

this is my long winded way of agreeing with phibunmike and ivan....

i guess the real test is when u are sick and dying. then your way of life, beliefs, religion etc suddenly cme in to strong focus and the real u steps forward. so if u were a 'flavor of the month' buddhist, then u might revert to what u once believed. or u might continue to believe in a supreme god, but put some buddhist ideas in to practice also. does it really matter??

bina

israel

[bina]

sorry wanted to add this after i went back to reread the thread:

selfish religions/philosophies around

it is selfish in that u are supposed to deal with yourself. be mindfull etc i.e. mindfull speech mindful action etc. so that if u do things mindfully (truthfully, no lying etc) then u are in a way selfish since u are mindful of yourself. u have responsibiltiy for your self alone and no one else. , u do things mindfully, the right way and therefore u do good. the ripple effect would be that your doing good would or could benefit others. if u are mindful in speech, then u cant intentionally hurt someone else. etc.

isnt that the problem with non attatchment i.e. non involvement that the west sees that as selfish and theravada buddhists see that as the right way. but if every one was mindful than there wouldnt be all this mess in the first place. so now there isthe movement called involved buddhism which more appeals to westerners. i think there is a thai monk that goes in this direction too? (once was a thread about this?)

and thai buddhists dont seem to agonize so much about their buddhism as we westerners do. they dont seem to think about it at all. dont know if thats cultural to westerners or just that we chose to be buddhist as opposed to being born in to it.

on the other hand, christians and jews seem to spend a lot of time agonizing about their beliefs, and the depth of their beliefs and the nuances of their beliefs and testing their beliefs. and maybe cause it is belief and not a way of life.

that must make me a jewbu (jewish buddhist?) ... cool, i've been pigeonholed.

bina

[endure]

I think that the basis of Therevada Buddhism and also the basis of much western psychology is that in order to help other people you need to sort yourself out first. Before the Buddha could offer enlightenment to others he had to become enlightened himself.

[bina]

endure, how did u say that in one line and it took me three paragraphs more or less?

))