Are Women More Likely To Be Believers?

[suegha]

Oh, I disagree Suegha, women are just as concerned about power, control and hierarchy. Just not necessarily mens or in the same way I think its normal for human beings to do so.

Anyway, sorry to be a party pooper but I am not much of a believer in anything. Not cynical, just not believing. I've seen some things that make me wonder, but afraid nothing substantive to push me into the believer camp.... of anything at all really.

Sounds kind of sad putting it that way but I perhaps that makes me more of a Buddhist than anything else.

Some sayings attributed to Buddha that I find appropriate to the subject:

Be greatly aware of reality as you meet or confront it each day, and from that become fit enough to deal with it.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

Interesting post sbk. Let me qualify it. The 'spiritual' women I have encountered are less likely to be concerned with such trivia.

Also, and it's not being a party pooper, your perception is that you're not much of a believer in anything. I would say that if you think about it you are a believer in plenty of things. This is for you and you alone to think about.

Your last statement disturbs me though. You wrote "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

Could this then not be used by any abuser of what is considered good? By any rapist or murderer or thief? (Or whatever you include here.) "Hey," they say, "it fits in with my own reason and my own common sense!" This surely cannot be a truism? I know from my own experience and beliefs that many things do not come natural to me. I should love my neighbour as myself, I should love my enemies, I should pray for those who despitefully use me, etc. When really what I want to do, (and this agrees with my reasom and my own common sense) is get them back, to treat them as they treat me. So my own nature would be to 'be to others as they are to me', rather than, 'do unto others as I would have them do unto me'. I hope this is easy to understand where I'm coming from.

Edited August 28, 2007 by suegha

[sbk]

Not my saying Suegha, but Buddha.

I believe Buddha was trying to get people to not believe everything there were told, either by a religion or a guru. Including himself. I believe that in a simplistic way, he is saying ---Think for yourself- do not believe everything you are told but use your reason and intelligence to decide whether or not that what you perceive is true.

Buddha also had (I believe) a twist on your last phrase; Do not do to other people that which you would not like done to yourself. (or along those lines). Not quite the same thing.

Regardless, I was merely trying to point out that just because someone tells me there are (or aren't) spirits doesn't make it reality. It just makes it their reality. I prefer to learn my truths in my own way and with my own experiences and brains.

[Jet Gorgon]

555 This is a good thread. My 101 English prof said nothing was real unless you could touch it. This was while she was trying to teach us Donne. I said, Oh ya, well then, what about your soul? Can't touch it. But if you don't have a soul, then you can't be a writer. I guess that's why you're a professor.

I told you NR, they don't believe us. Never will. And I don't care.

Oh, I remember a great ad with a bunch of Tibetan monks who communicated via telepathy to each other in monasteries far away. Then they got the Internet. Ah! More fun or something.

[sutnyod]

555 This is a good thread. My 101 English prof said nothing was real unless you could touch it. This was while she was trying to teach us Donne. I

There is a different version around: after somebody had declared that things are unreal unless you could see them, another person turned off the light and slapped that somebody on the face. Well, the slap was very real , then

[sbk]

Take it the way you like it, if that is what you choose to think I am trying to communicate then feel free. Again, your reality is your own, and you will believe what you want to, I believe mine

[DirkGently]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It has a different feel to threads on the 'blokes' side.

I noticed that 2 or 3 stories contain dogs being some sort of go between. Could this not be a case of a seemingly ordinary event beig recalled after the death of a loved one. The event then takes on some kind of importance.

Consider this. Many years ago as the cold winter nights drew in and I couldn't afford heating i would add an extra thick duvet to my bed. At the time I had a dog that was very impulsive and one morning he came into my room on one of his nightly patrols and he was obviously startled to see a difference in my bedding. He leapt on to my bed and attacked my sleeping form under the duvet. Imagine being woken p like that.

Now, If later that morning I received some dreadful news, would it be normal to attach some importance to that strange event.

Not that it matters. When we finally find out it will be to late to tell anybody.

I hope I'm not intruding. If I promise to put the seat down, can I pop round again.

[suegha]

Take it the way you like it, if that is what you choose to think I am trying to communicate then feel free. Again, your reality is your own, and you will believe what you want to, I believe mine

That's interesting sbk, in a previous thread you said you didn't believe anything!

[suegha]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It has a different feel to threads on the 'blokes' side.

I noticed that 2 or 3 stories contain dogs being some sort of go between. Could this not be a case of a seemingly ordinary event beig recalled after the death of a loved one. The event then takes on some kind of importance.

Consider this. Many years ago as the cold winter nights drew in and I couldn't afford heating i would add an extra thick duvet to my bed. At the time I had a dog that was very impulsive and one morning he came into my room on one of his nightly patrols and he was obviously startled to see a difference in my bedding. He leapt on to my bed and attacked my sleeping form under the duvet. Imagine being woken p like that.

Now, If later that morning I received some dreadful news, would it be normal to attach some importance to that strange event.

Not that it matters. When we finally find out it will be to late to tell anybody.

I hope I'm not intruding. If I promise to put the seat down, can I pop round again.

I agree that some events just happen and then links are made. However, this does not mean that every event can be 'logically' proven. There are so many things we don't understand.

[villagefarang]

Reading this thread reminded me of something I wrote in my blog a while back. It is probably a waisted effort since people are so controlled by their bias and like to play semantics when they don't agree with what someone else says. It does give my take on all this stuff, however.

"I'm the first to admit that I have never had much need for all forms of magic and gods and spirits and superstitions and the requisite rituals and ceremonies. Not that I don't understand that they serve a social function, especially in a place like this, where people often feel helpless and at the mercy of things beyond their understanding. My take is along the lines of, even if I could bring myself to believe in any of this superstitious mumbo jumbo, I would never be so vain as to believe that I had the power to influence any of it and make it do my bidding. My wife obviously has a slightly different take on the subject being Thai! It doesn't seem to be an issue with us, however. Neither one of us is into validating our beliefs by trying to convince others to have the same beliefs. It is a complicated world and there is never just one side to anything and that is OK with me."

[sbk]

Take it the way you like it, if that is what you choose to think I am trying to communicate then feel free. Again, your reality is your own, and you will believe what you want to, I believe mine

That's interesting sbk, in a previous thread you said you didn't believe anything!

I think I said I don't believe in anything. I don't follow a dogma, a religion or a philosophy. I believe I exist, I am pretty sure you do, not sure about Jet tho. I think she may be a figment of my imagination

[sbk]

Reading this thread reminded me of something I wrote in my blog a while back. It is probably a waisted effort since people are so controlled by their bias and like to play semantics when they don't agree with what someone else says. It does give my take on all this stuff, however.

"I'm the first to admit that I have never had much need for all forms of magic and gods and spirits and superstitions and the requisite rituals and ceremonies. Not that I don't understand that they serve a social function, especially in a place like this, where people often feel helpless and at the mercy of things beyond their understanding. My take is along the lines of, even if I could bring myself to believe in any of this superstitious mumbo jumbo, I would never be so vain as to believe that I had the power to influence any of it and make it do my bidding. My wife obviously has a slightly different take on the subject being Thai! It doesn't seem to be an issue with us, however. Neither one of us is into validating our beliefs by trying to convince others to have the same beliefs. It is a complicated world and there is never just one side to anything and that is OK with me."

Well said, villagefarang.

[kat]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It has a different feel to threads on the 'blokes' side.

I noticed that 2 or 3 stories contain dogs being some sort of go between. Could this not be a case of a seemingly ordinary event beig recalled after the death of a loved one. The event then takes on some kind of importance.

Consider this. Many years ago as the cold winter nights drew in and I couldn't afford heating i would add an extra thick duvet to my bed. At the time I had a dog that was very impulsive and one morning he came into my room on one of his nightly patrols and he was obviously startled to see a difference in my bedding. He leapt on to my bed and attacked my sleeping form under the duvet. Imagine being woken p like that.

Now, If later that morning I received some dreadful news, would it be normal to attach some importance to that strange event.

Not that it matters. When we finally find out it will be to late to tell anybody.

I hope I'm not intruding. If I promise to put the seat down, can I pop round again.

Nope, I'm sure I'm not attaching a significant meaning to an otherwise insignificant occurrence. As I said, I need strong proof, and I've had what I need in my existence and experience to prove to myself that this event occurred as I am depicting it. It is surrounded by a lot of other details that served to test and confirm my own judgment.

Could it be that you have never had a series of events or experiences that tested and developed your judgment? Again, events like this one are hard to understand if you have never experienced them. That really doesn't mean that your judgment is superior in any way, only different. I'm not talking about ghosts that wander about anonymously as in a haunted house movie, I'm talking about space in time between life and death of someone with whom you were spiritually and/or physically connected. Big difference.

[Jet Gorgon]

I believe I exist...not sure about Jet tho. I think she may be a figment of my imagination

hehe. I been called alot of things, but figment of an imagination is a first. hehe

[sbk]

Its the hair jet, definitely the hair

[seonai]

Carrying on with Sutnyod's point... in studies of perception by Aristotle and Plato it was discussed that nothing existed, if you closed your eyes, except yourself.

The Buddha meant, as SBK said, that even if someone told you - for example - that there is life after death, don't actually believe it until you have experienced is and know it to be true yourself. Like people can tell you what happens when you meditate but you won't actually be able to believe them until you've tried it

[Jet Gorgon]

SBK, I'm wearing a head scarf today, a la Audrey Hepburn. 555

Dunno, Seonai. I told the ajarn what I saw when I meditated. He laughed and added latrine duty to my roster of daily chores. I know what I see and do up there when I meditate. I guess everybody's different. At least the mosquitoes don't bug you.

[November Rain]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It has a different feel to threads on the 'blokes' side.

I noticed that 2 or 3 stories contain dogs being some sort of go between. Could this not be a case of a seemingly ordinary event beig recalled after the death of a loved one. The event then takes on some kind of importance.

Consider this. Many years ago as the cold winter nights drew in and I couldn't afford heating i would add an extra thick duvet to my bed. At the time I had a dog that was very impulsive and one morning he came into my room on one of his nightly patrols and he was obviously startled to see a difference in my bedding. He leapt on to my bed and attacked my sleeping form under the duvet. Imagine being woken p like that.

Now, If later that morning I received some dreadful news, would it be normal to attach some importance to that strange event.

Not that it matters. When we finally find out it will be to late to tell anybody.

I hope I'm not intruding. If I promise to put the seat down, can I pop round again.

Nope, I'm sure I'm not attaching a significant meaning to an otherwise insignificant occurrence. As I said, I need strong proof, and I've had what I need in my existence and experience to prove to myself that this event occurred as I am depicting it. It is surrounded by a lot of other details that served to test and confirm my own judgment.

Could it be that you have never had a series of events or experiences that tested and developed your judgment? Again, events like this one are hard to understand if you have never experienced them. That really doesn't mean that your judgment is superior in any way, only different. I'm not talking about ghosts that wander about anonymously as in a haunted house movie, I'm talking about space in time between life and death of someone with whom you were spiritually and/or physically connected. Big difference.

Was going to answer, Dirk, but I think you've said most of what I would have, kat.

Dirk, the dog one I related was only one thing that's happened. Many have had animals involved (in my case), but others haven't. I used to see an old man in my gran's house as a child. I knew he was a spirit/ghost/ whatever name you want to call it. I thought he was their neighbour that was a really good friend of theirs who had died. As an adult I was talking to my mum about it & she got me to describe him. It turned out I'd described my great grandfather who had died before I was born (& so, I'd never seen, not even as an infant), someone who used to be very close to my mum & spent a lot of time at my grandparent's house.

I think kat is right - if you've had an experience that tested your judgement you'll be more likely to understand or feel 'off kilter' experiences, in general.

[RueFang]

I wasn't remotely "spiritual" as a child/teenager but when I was 17 I had an out of body experience where I was looking down at myself from the ceiling. I was absolutely terrified because the noise was unbearable and I was trying to get back in my body but couldn't. The whole time I felt a definite cord attached between me (on the ceiling) to the body on the floor. When I did get back in my body (3 hours later!) I was shaking uncontrollably. In hindsight I realised that the shaking was me trying to realign my "soul" to my body and the noise when I was "outside" was the sounds of vibrations. I was instantly transformed from a really depressed teenager to something more aware (spiritual??). You just can't be depressed when you see the reality of what you really are! It only happened the once but it really changed my life (and saved it). I never try to change people's own ideas about this sort of thing because it's only words. Once you have the experience there's no need to argue the point because you know in yourself the truth of reality.

[OxfordWill]

In my opinion, all the comments that amoutn to relativism- i.e. I have my reality, you have your reality, are nonsense. There must be an absolute reality and truth to the way things are, metaphysically and otherwise, and where there are two opposing views on the subject they cannot both be correct. One person is wrong, or both are wrong, but they cannot both be right. I personally find that reassuring, but I realise I am in a minority with that view.

[sbk]

Seems to me OxfordWill hasn't been keeping up with his physics or his buddhism

[OxfordWill]

To be honest I am pretty ignorant in both areas, yes. Can do metaphysics though!

[canuckamuck]

Reality is the same for all, it is the delusions that are personal.

[November Rain]

Reality is the same for all, it is the delusions that are personal.

You could very well be right. However, I don't think the verdict is in on which party (believers or non-believers) is delusional...

[canuckamuck]

But we are all believers in something, even those who claim to believe in nothing.

Existence forces an awareness of an absolute, even in insanity.

Edited August 31, 2007 by canuckamuck

[dressedingreen]

Just a couple of observations ...

Seonai ... if we checked out everything for ourselves before we believed in its existence, we'd spend a huge amount of our lives confirming the reality of accepted phenomena. I'm not suggesting that everyone should start to believe in, for example, life after death, but the idea that we should all of us disbelieve everything until we, personally, experience it would condemn us to a life of unnecessary repetition.

OffordWill ... It is the belief that there is one absolute truth that has held back humankind for centuries. Multi-universe and string theory are already enjoying a steak or two off that particular sacred cow. Where is it written that there must be one absolute truth ... apart from religious texts?

dig

Edited August 31, 2007 by dressedingreen

[seonai]

I sort of understand what RueFang said as I almost died last year and now my life is just so different. I really appreciate everything and see even the simplist things as beautiful and it makes me smile. Like being on drugs with no drugs. I wear pink and yellow, no more black clothes and just enjoy life for what it is

[seonai]

Hey Dig, see what you mean but anyway I was just quoting from Buddhist texts

[dressedingreen]

Hi Seonai

I understand. But Buddhist texts, as with most religious texts, can be taken out of context at best. At worst, they can be misinterpreted, even deliberately so in order to deliver power to societal elites. It's been happening for centuries. Principally, the Buddha taught the idea of suffering and no suffering. We suffer simply because we attach to feelings that have no lasting effect except in our minds. For example, the break-up of a relationship only has a lasting effect on us if we allow it to. The death of someone close to us only penetrates our psyche as loss if we determine it in that way. Gautama described everything as transient, including our physical lives. Of course, as someone else has pointed out in this thread, he also said his followers should challenge everything, even his teachings.

Have a nice evening

dig

[seonai]

Hi Dig, yes I believe that part of the Dhamma is quoted in the Kalama Suta

Cheers

[canuckamuck]

OffordWill ... It is the belief that there is one absolute truth that has held back humankind for centuries. Multi-universe and string theory are already enjoying a steak or two off that particular sacred cow. Where is it written that there must be one absolute truth ... apart from religious texts?

dig

Alternate truth by its very nature is absurd. Truth must be singular or it cannot exist. How has mankind been held back? Where should we have gone by now? Are we late? Where is it written that there are multiple truths apart from science fiction and religious texts?

And what do you mean where is it written? It seems by the frame of your question you concede a form of absolute truth, in the form of the written word.

Edited August 31, 2007 by canuckamuck