Financial Crisis

[sokal]

Bear Stearns Just Said No To The Goldman-Paulson Scheme, Did Not Pass "Ethics Standards"

Greg Zuckerman, as pointed out by Wall Street Manna, in his book "The Greatest Trade Ever" describes Paulson's meetings with Goldman, Bear and Deutsche to "ask if they could create CDOs that Paulson & Co. could essentially bet against. Ironically, it was Bear Stearns that rejected the offer: "[bear Stearns trader Scott Eichel] worried that Paulson would want especially ugly mortgages for the CDOs, like a bettor asking a football owner to bench a star quarterback to improve the odds of his wager against the team ... he felt it would be improper." Eichel told Zuckerman, " 'It didn't pass our ethics standards; it was a reputation issue, and it didn't pass our moral compass. Sure enough, Goldman et al (allegedly) took down Bear shortly thereafter, and gave it away to Jamie Dimon for pennies on the dollar. In the world of Wall Street, where everyone tries to destroy the dumbest, those who play by some ethical historical rulebook all end up seeing a "run" on their liquidity sooner or later.

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Edited April 19, 2010 by sokal

[Abrak]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

[midas]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

Surely Abrak you cannot compare the damage to the reputation of GS as the largest capital-market player on the US scene

to betting on emerging markets where at least you would expect in advance that corruption plays a big part in business ?

I think " deep <deleted> " is an undertstatement..................

" We expect that there are a lot more charges coming and they will impact GS and many other firms. And we will soon see state attorneys general piling on. The plaintiff law firms are already preparing class-action suits. Germany and the U.K. are launching their own investigations. These types of allegations are not going to be confined to SEC vs. GOLDMAN SACHS & CO. and FABRICE TOURRE. The allegations will not be limited to a single security series known as Abacus 2007

It could quickly become a criminal action. One lawyer said “just wait until we hear from Andrew Cuomo.”

[sokal]

All this is great but I hope it lives up to the hipe.

Senior Goldman Exec Is Married to Former Head of ACA

My source told me to check out who the head of ACA was married to. "I think you'll find it's a senior woman at Goldman Sachs," he said.

Well, yep, it is.

Alan S. Rosenman took over ACA Capital as president and CEO in 2004 - because -- wait for it -- his predecessor Michael Satz had "personal income tax issues"

[lannarebirth]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

Any enterprise that drains substantial amounts of cash out of the business to non principals might make one cautious of an ongoing scam. Goldman fits most of the criteria and its possible there may be a plan afoot to dump every financial ill in the Goldman basket. But like a Hydra it is a many headed beast and would only regenerate in some other or many other forms.

[lannarebirth]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

Surely Abrak you cannot compare the damage to the reputation of GS as the largest capital-market player on the US scene

to betting on emerging markets where at least you would expect in advance that corruption plays a big part in business ?

I think " deep <deleted> " is an undertstatement..................

" We expect that there are a lot more charges coming and they will impact GS and many other firms. And we will soon see state attorneys general piling on. The plaintiff law firms are already preparing class-action suits. Germany and the U.K. are launching their own investigations. These types of allegations are not going to be confined to SEC vs. GOLDMAN SACHS & CO. and FABRICE TOURRE. The allegations will not be limited to a single security series known as Abacus 2007

It could quickly become a criminal action. One lawyer said "just wait until we hear from Andrew Cuomo."

The point is "who cares?". These people take their money on the front end.

Edited April 19, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Gambles]

there is no conspiracy

repeat

there is no conspiracy

now click your heals together and say take me home

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN161669...ype=marketsNews

First off I had to see if this John Paulson was related to Hank Paulson.... they say he is not....

Then I looked at this John Paulsons bio...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paulson

This caught my eye too.....

In early 2008, the firm hired former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.

In September 2008, Paulson bet against four of the five biggest British banks.

ahhhhhh yep

don't fall for this

Read 'The Big Short'

Paulson hasn't been accused or even associated with any impropriety. Maybe, just maybe his name is getting thrown in there so that the public can be somehow confused into thinking that poor, sweet, little GS were corrupted by the big, bad hedge fund man.

Paulson is up 5% this month.

For full disclosure purposes I should declare that MBMG intends to be an initial investor into the soon to be launched APM Paulson Advantage Fund

[Gambles]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

Surely Abrak you cannot compare the damage to the reputation of GS as the largest capital-market player on the US scene

to betting on emerging markets where at least you would expect in advance that corruption plays a big part in business ?

I think " deep <deleted> " is an undertstatement..................

" We expect that there are a lot more charges coming and they will impact GS and many other firms. And we will soon see state attorneys general piling on. The plaintiff law firms are already preparing class-action suits. Germany and the U.K. are launching their own investigations. These types of allegations are not going to be confined to SEC vs. GOLDMAN SACHS & CO. and FABRICE TOURRE. The allegations will not be limited to a single security series known as Abacus 2007

It could quickly become a criminal action. One lawyer said "just wait until we hear from Andrew Cuomo."

The point is "who cares?". These people take their money on the front end.

yep

and the middle and the back

from all parties

It's not so much when they take their money as the fact that 'Just so Wall Street' appears to mean 'just so venal'

Or is that just me who thinks so?

[churchill]

there is no conspiracy

repeat

there is no conspiracy

now click your heals together and say take me home

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN161669...ype=marketsNews

First off I had to see if this John Paulson was related to Hank Paulson.... they say he is not....

Then I looked at this John Paulsons bio...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paulson

This caught my eye too.....

In early 2008, the firm hired former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.

In September 2008, Paulson bet against four of the five biggest British banks.

ahhhhhh yep

don't fall for this

Read 'The Big Short'

Paulson hasn't been accused or even associated with any impropriety. Maybe, just maybe his name is getting thrown in there so that the public can be somehow confused into thinking that poor, sweet, little GS were corrupted by the big, bad hedge fund man.

Paulson is up 5% this month.

For full disclosure purposes I should declare that MBMG intends to be an initial investor into the soon to be launched APM Paulson Advantage Fund

"APM Paulson Advantage Fund "and what does that invest in ?

and "MBMG intends to be an initial investor " via which fund ?

Edited April 19, 2010 by churchill

[midas]

GS is in deep <deleted>. A name change is probably already in the works.

Well if you look at emerging markets you will often see that people bet on the best connected, most corrupt companies. Personally I have never really liked this strategy because while these companies might be good at creating value at any moment in time, it rarely accrues to minority investors.

Occasionally I am sure this blows up in your face like when Suharto went down.

To me making a call against GS is pretty bloody brave on the basis they are certainly smarter than you and (in all likelihood) more corrupt than you. And really, if you think about it, GS will be shorting their own stock well before the average investor knows when to do it.

Surely Abrak you cannot compare the damage to the reputation of GS as the largest capital-market player on the US scene

to betting on emerging markets where at least you would expect in advance that corruption plays a big part in business ?

I think " deep <deleted> " is an undertstatement..................

" We expect that there are a lot more charges coming and they will impact GS and many other firms. And we will soon see state attorneys general piling on. The plaintiff law firms are already preparing class-action suits. Germany and the U.K. are launching their own investigations. These types of allegations are not going to be confined to SEC vs. GOLDMAN SACHS & CO. and FABRICE TOURRE. The allegations will not be limited to a single security series known as Abacus 2007

It could quickly become a criminal action. One lawyer said "just wait until we hear from Andrew Cuomo."

The point is "who cares?". These people take their money on the front end.

Oh I dont care ! But its a bit like watching the volcanic ash cloud grow bigger and bigger

Congressmen Urge Dramatic Expansion Of Goldman Investigation, Demand Big Payback To AIG

Because the government has committed so much money to A.I.G., Representatives Elijah E. Cummings, Democrat of Maryland, and Peter DeFazio, Democrat of Oregon, are asking the S.E.C. to investigate all the Abacus deals issued by Goldman, and especially those insured by A.I.G.

The congressmen want regulators to determine whether fraudulent conduct by the investment firm contributed to billions of dollars in losses. If such conduct is found, the congressmen are urging the S.E.C. to recoup payments made by A.I.G. to Goldman.

Mr. Cummings and Mr. DeFazio are also asking the S.E.C. to refer matters that appear to involve criminal misconduct on the part of Goldman Sachs to the Justice Department.

Meanwhile, everyone is looking for the next firm to get charged, with names being bandied about including Deutsche Bank and Merrill Lynch.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/congressmen...4#ixzz0lbGSDWai

Edited April 19, 2010 by midas

[Gambles]

don't fall for this

Read 'The Big Short'

Paulson hasn't been accused or even associated with any impropriety. Maybe, just maybe his name is getting thrown in there so that the public can be somehow confused into thinking that poor, sweet, little GS were corrupted by the big, bad hedge fund man.

Paulson is up 5% this month.

For full disclosure purposes I should declare that MBMG intends to be an initial investor into the soon to be launched APM Paulson Advantage Fund

"APM Paulson Advantage Fund "and what does that invest in ?

and "MBMG intends to be an initial investor " via which fund ?

Advantage is the less leveraged version of Advantage Plus - the bankruptcy, distressed debt, and merger opportunity funds that have performed so well for Paulson

Via Osmium and Iridium

[flying]

Congressmen Urge Dramatic Expansion Of Goldman Investigation, Demand Big Payback To AIG

Because the government has committed so much money to A.I.G., Representatives Elijah E. Cummings, Democrat of Maryland, and Peter DeFazio, Democrat of Oregon, are asking the S.E.C. to investigate all the Abacus deals issued by Goldman, and especially those insured by A.I.G.

The congressmen want regulators to determine whether fraudulent conduct by the investment firm contributed to billions of dollars in losses. If such conduct is found, the congressmen are urging the S.E.C. to recoup payments made by A.I.G. to Goldman.

Now this is where they should hang the other Paulson...( Hank )

Was it not his urging to deal with AIG at 100 cents on the dollar for their losses? Knowing full well a large chunk ...12.9 Billion was going to his former employer Goldman Sachs? Where he was Chairman & CEO.... The whole thing reeks

[flying]

don't fall for this

Read 'The Big Short'

Paulson hasn't been accused or even associated with any impropriety. Maybe, just maybe his name is getting thrown in there so that the public can be somehow confused into thinking that poor, sweet, little GS were corrupted by the big, bad hedge fund man.

Paulson is up 5% this month.

For full disclosure purposes I should declare that MBMG intends to be an initial investor into the soon to be launched APM Paulson Advantage Fund

Well we will see...or not? what comes out in the wash if allowed to wash thoroughly.

It is hard at this point to believe anyone setting up large sweet heart deals with GS are not going to be culpable.

Did Bear Stearns turn down dealing with this Paulson Fund for the express reason that it was in their opinion unethical?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/ap...ed-paulson-deal

Then again most know me & my lack of tolerance/sympathy for the whole lot. If I had my way the reset trigger would have been pulled repeatedly long ago at the beginning of the bail out talks.

Edited April 19, 2010 by flying

[Gambles]

Congressmen Urge Dramatic Expansion Of Goldman Investigation, Demand Big Payback To AIG

Because the government has committed so much money to A.I.G., Representatives Elijah E. Cummings, Democrat of Maryland, and Peter DeFazio, Democrat of Oregon, are asking the S.E.C. to investigate all the Abacus deals issued by Goldman, and especially those insured by A.I.G.

The congressmen want regulators to determine whether fraudulent conduct by the investment firm contributed to billions of dollars in losses. If such conduct is found, the congressmen are urging the S.E.C. to recoup payments made by A.I.G. to Goldman.

Now this is where they should hang the other Paulson...( Hank )

Was it not his urging to deal with AIG at 100 cents on the dollar for their losses? Knowing full well a large chunk ...12.9 Billion was going to his former employer Goldman Sachs? Where he was Chairman & CEO.... The whole thing reeks

Correct - although wasn't it also Bernanke who then turned down counterparty offers of 98 Cents ?

Fed now has a pile of junk on its balance sheet at between 95-100 Cents when Buffett just sold off much more transparent quality debt at 0.55?

Yuk!

[Gambles]

don't fall for this

Read 'The Big Short'

Paulson hasn't been accused or even associated with any impropriety. Maybe, just maybe his name is getting thrown in there so that the public can be somehow confused into thinking that poor, sweet, little GS were corrupted by the big, bad hedge fund man.

Paulson is up 5% this month.

For full disclosure purposes I should declare that MBMG intends to be an initial investor into the soon to be launched APM Paulson Advantage Fund

Well we will see...or not? what comes out in the wash if allowed to wash thoroughly.

It is hard at this point to believe anyone setting up large sweet heart deals with GS are not going to be culpable.

Did Bear Stearns turn down dealing with this Paulson Fund for the express reason that it was in their opinion unethical?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/ap...ed-paulson-deal

Then again most know me & my lack of tolerance/sympathy for the whole lot. If I had my way the reset trigger would have been pulled repeatedly long ago at the beginning of the bail out talks.

that could have saved everypne $ trillions

would have been good spectator sport too

You already get my vote for next head of the SEC......

[Naam]

what happened to the thread "Financial Crisis"? yawwwnnnn...

[flying]

Correct - although wasn't it also Bernanke who then turned down counterparty offers of 98 Cents ?

Fed now has a pile of junk on its balance sheet at between 95-100 Cents when Buffett just sold off much more transparent quality debt at 0.55?

Yuk!

Yep that was BS Bernanke himself

Then again the FED does not fear junk as it also produces it

that could have saved everypne $ trillions

would have been good spectator sport too

You already get my vote for next head of the SEC......

Ok I will consider the position but can I be paid in real money? aka: gold & silver

[flying]

what happened to the thread "Financial Crisis"? yawwwnnnn...

Actually I think we may finally be seeing the beginning of the end.

Whether it is the end of the financial crisis or the end of the so called financial world I am not sure though

[sokal]

what happened to the thread "Financial Crisis"? yawwwnnnn...

If this is not related to financial crisis then what is ?

what should we be talking about ? volcano's ?

[sokal]

Did I see that right ? UK inflation at 3.4% yoy ? Thats getting there

[Naam]

what happened to the thread "Financial Crisis"? yawwwnnnn...

If this is not related to financial crisis then what is ? what should we be talking about ? volcano's ?

perhaps we could (like in other threads) talk about the exploding gold price by listing 179 central banks, 1.3 billion Chinese, 1.1 billion Indians and those knowledgeables who have nothing else in mind than buying and hoarding 25 hours a day (they skip lunch) gold bullion in their vaults and safes.

then there is a variety of interesting topics, such as:

-Keynes was an idiot

-Bernanke is an idiot

-Geithner is an idiot

-that idiot Greenspan caused the crisis

-Goldman sucks

-Austrian School forever

-Faber forecasts zimbabwean inflation in the Greatest Nation on Earth™

-ATM fees in Thailand

-the Pound is doomed

-ze Yewro iz doomed

-Thai Baht will crash any time from now

-red shirts in Tiananmen Square

-Who is the chinese president?

-whom to blame for the crisis?

-beating the crisis by applying voodoo

-does the Vatican own GS shares?

[Abrak]

Did I see that right ? UK inflation at 3.4% yoy ? Thats getting there

Well I do believe you are right in pointing out that inflation is actually there. There are a number of posters who do not actually believe that it can exist/be avoided in a deflationary environment. However average inflation over the last 100 years has been 3.42% in the US (dont know the number for the UK). So it is hard to say we are in an inflationary environment.

I am slightly of the view that covering up gaping wounds with plasters or putting out the fire with gasoline is not really productive. If somewhere like Greece defies physics let alone economics by deflating their way out of a GDP/Debt crisis by borrowing more and lowering income it will be an unequalled miracle. Of course everyone is bound by the Bear Stearns/Lehmans rule which states that declaring crap is crap is tantamount to declaring it is all a farce.

Still if you asked the 'smarter than a 5th Grader' crew what they would do now (and noone I believe has proven to be smarter than a 5th grader) they would say high inflation, negative real rates.

[midas]

A great appointment as Judge for the GS case

The recent legal case against Ken Lewis and Bank of America proved just how critical the Judge selection in these SEC-spearheaded cases can be.

The case of the Securities and Exchange Commission v. Goldman Sachs & Co. et al (Southern New York District, 10-3229), has been assigned to Judge Barbara S. Jones. The Temple University JD grad's career revolves around Organized Crime & Racketeering, two specialties that will be particularly appropriate

She was assigned to the Southern District Court in 1995 on the nomination of William Jefferson Clinton, following the recommendation of Daniel Patrick

So the republican dissenters at the SEC can wave goodbye to an easy ride

[Naam]

i sincerely wish your expectations will come true Midas. what this world needs is that a bunch of banksters do jail time. unfortunately the result is (in my view) preprogrammed and whatever huge fine (if any) might be slapped on them, the banksters will pay it... perhaps with a chuckle

[midas]

i sincerely wish your expectations will come true Midas. what this world needs is that a bunch of banksters do jail time. unfortunately the result is (in my view) preprogrammed and whatever huge fine (if any) might be slapped on them, the banksters will pay it... perhaps with a chuckle

I am following this with interest because I want to see if justice will prevail.

Even without criminal proceedings I am sure there is more to come out.

In a phone call with leading investors in GS , their general counsel refused to directly answer

a question as to whether or not there were additional " Wells Notices " outstanding,

saying only that they would disclose any that are "material" (but in the judgment of GS )

( A Wells Notice is a letter that the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) s

ends to people or firms when it is planning to bring an enforcement action against them.)

So I think people are interpreting from this that further bombshells are about to drop that GS knows about .

Horrible people

[AlexLah]

A great appointment as Judge for the GS case

The recent legal case against Ken Lewis and Bank of America proved just how critical the Judge selection in these SEC-spearheaded cases can be.

The case of the Securities and Exchange Commission v. Goldman Sachs & Co. et al (Southern New York District, 10-3229), has been assigned to Judge Barbara S. Jones. The Temple University JD grad's career revolves around Organized Crime & Racketeering, two specialties that will be particularly appropriate

She was assigned to the Southern District Court in 1995 on the nomination of William Jefferson Clinton, following the recommendation of Daniel Patrick

So the republican dissenters at the SEC can wave goodbye to an easy ride

But isn't it a civil lawsuit instead of a criminal?

[flying]

i sincerely wish your expectations will come true Midas. what this world needs is that a bunch of banksters do jail time. unfortunately the result is (in my view) preprogrammed and whatever huge fine (if any) might be slapped on them, the banksters will pay it... perhaps with a chuckle

I am following this with interest because I want to see if justice will prevail.

The fine they should pay is how ever many grains of powder it takes to fill the brass.

Other than that the least they should pay is the same as Bernie Madoff.

While Bernie screwed his *people* GS & others screwed the world.

If they get off with a fine I hope some vigilantes finishes the job.

Edited April 20, 2010 by flying

[Naam]

But isn't it a civil lawsuit instead of a criminal?

it is, but one could hope if enough incriminating evidence is collected/presented in the civil suit it might lead to a criminal one.

[Gambles]

Correct - although wasn't it also Bernanke who then turned down counterparty offers of 98 Cents ?

Fed now has a pile of junk on its balance sheet at between 95-100 Cents when Buffett just sold off much more transparent quality debt at 0.55?

Yuk!

Yep that was BS Bernanke himself

Then again the FED does not fear junk as it also produces it

I noticed in the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports / AGM that Warren took a big hit selling the distressed debts of his credit card business at 55 Cents and yet (the differences between secured and unsecured notwithstanding) The Fed still appears to book its distressed at unprovisioned full cost!

Edited April 20, 2010 by Gambles

[Gambles]

But isn't it a civil lawsuit instead of a criminal?

it is, but one could hope if enough incriminating evidence is collected/presented in the civil suit it might lead to a criminal one.

In addition to the Greek sovereign issue and also the potential for developments in US municipalities, it seems that in Belgium Italy, Poland, France and Germany there are thousands of local and regional authorities who have engaged in CDS and other derivative activity with the likes of GS, RBS, Deutsche, Zurich, Dexia, Hypo, JPM etc who could all now be thinking of queuing up to litigate against the 'banksters'.....each case on its merits and these may not involve criminal activity even if the civial cases are ultimately upheld but at the very least German bankers won't be taking their holidays in French mining towns for a while.....