Shocking Conversation...at Least To Me

[wayfarer108]

I have to agree that the braiwashed one here is you. People seem to forget that Thaksin was democratically elected prime mnister. He may have been corrupt to a degree but that is par for the course throughout Asia. Just because the poor people of Thailand like and want Thaksins return doesnt make them stupid nor brainwashed.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was thinking. Thaksin was no prince, but he was not the bogeyman either!

Correct. The bogeyman is just a figment of a child's imagination. Thaksin is real, and demonstrably the most dangerous politician in modern Thai history. Nothing imaginary about it at all

[wayfarer108]

Yes thaksin was corrupt, but name me one thai politician who isnt filling his bank account from the public coffers.

I can name two: Abhisit and Korn

Me thinks that your coffee intake has impaired your better judgment..... all will be revealed (if the press does: reports honestly, and are actually allowed to without being constantly censored or blacked out...)

Right. And you're privy to that information already

[tomahawk]

If someone in politics does something to make your and your family's life better, you will support that politician. Thaksin did many things for poor people here, so this is shocking that they like him? The only shocking things about this conversation are that OP cannot understand this, and that the OP considers the Thai guy to be the ignorant one.

[phetaroi]

If someone in politics does something to make your and your family's life better, you will support that politician. Thaksin did many things for poor people here, so this is shocking that they like him? The only shocking things about this conversation are that OP cannot understand this, and that the OP considers the Thai guy to be the ignorant one.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I don't judge a politician merely based on what he does, but also based on what it appears his motives are. Otherwise, every gain is a short-term gain and it's unlikely that it's right for the nation in the long-run.

I'll give you an example. Even in retirement, I have great health care insurance through my former employer. Health care reform in America is something I am strongly in favor of, and even though it will undoubtedly cost me more money, I support the right version of it even though it will not help me a bit.

I think you make the assumption that the people who support Thaksin are dumb and don't care about their country.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

What a puzzling post, and more evidence how far Bangkok Farangs are separated from what happens in Thailand as a whole.

Apparently the OP is shocked that in a country that's politically roughly split through the middle, he finds a person who likes Thaksin/PTP. Whoa. And a taxi driver no-less! Who would have thought.

Also, I wouldn't bet on it being HIM who is brainwashed! Ever looked at a copy of a Thai mainsteam English language newspaper recently (any, any day) ?

Thirdly, you turned to politics as a discussion topic, and now you're upset that he doesn't parrot your Bangkok-urban middle class views? Honestly if you're this easily upset in a political conversation, may I suggest the weather as a topic?

Then in the ensuing discussion on this forum, you make arguments about Thaksin that are your views, which is fine, that's what goes on 24/7 in the news clippings forum: Farangs ranting about their Thai poltical opinions, very much including Yours Truly. But what was originally refreshing about this particular topic here was that at least the starting point was the opinion of an actual Thai person, who actually gets to vote. My main issue to be honest is not whether Thaksin is Gandhi or Marcos or Satan himself, but whether Thailand can get to a genuine democracy, and if the WHOLE of Thailand can enjoy equal rights and prosper, not just the Happy Few.

Edited March 2, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[ivowatson]

Chuan leekpai, who preceeded Thaksin, is responsible for paying off the IMF ahead of shedule and cautiously getting the economy back on track.

He was, however, too cautious and not nearly flamboyant enough for the thai people, who unfortunately once again opted for style over substance. He remains today an acerbic wit and very vocal member of the opposition.

Tellingly, almost immediately after being elected. Khun Thaksin became embroiled in the asset declaration scandal and has kept us entertained ever since.

Perhaps people do get the government they deserve.

Agreed, most people here deserve Taksin. Chuan wasn't flashy enough and way too slow. He actually worked for the country but almost no one cared. Of course there were corrupt ministers in his cabinet and even in his own party and they finally got him booted out because he didn't let them take a lot. Many didn't like and certainly didn't understand that someone who's running the country as PM for 5 or 6 years only owns a house worth 3 million bath. Many thought and think he must be stupid and even made fun of him for not enriching himself. That's how many people over here think. Reversing that is impossible IMO as most people are now even more greedy than before. But guess who's sitting in the front row every time there's a royally sponsored ceremony or event while Chavalit, Banharn, Somchai et all sit in the back or even aren't invited.

The only 'hope' Thailand has is sticking with Abbhisit.

[wayfarer108]

If someone in politics does something to make your and your family's life better, you will support that politician. Thaksin did many things for poor people here, so this is shocking that they like him? The only shocking things about this conversation are that OP cannot understand this, and that the OP considers the Thai guy to be the ignorant one.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I don't judge a politician merely based on what he does, but also based on what it appears his motives are. Otherwise, every gain is a short-term gain and it's unlikely that it's right for the nation in the long-run.

I'll give you an example. Even in retirement, I have great health care insurance through my former employer. Health care reform in America is something I am strongly in favor of, and even though it will undoubtedly cost me more money, I support the right version of it even though it will not help me a bit.

I think you make the assumption that the people who support Thaksin are dumb and don't care about their country.

An excellent example.

[tomahawk]

I think I did not explain things well. What I am trying to say is the opposite. Not that people are dumb for supporting Thaksin, but that it is obviously human nature to support people that do things beneficial to you. I cannot understand how my statements can be construed as saying people do not care about their country? And as far as motives go, perhaps I am cynical, but I believe every politicians main motive is to keep their job, which in a democracy means getting reelected. if the president or congressman in America takes some action which is good for the country, my family, and myself, I don't wrry about analyzing their psychological motives for doing it.

Which politician in Thailand or anywhere for that matter is truly selfless? I do not know of any.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Me neither. I think we're getting to an agreement. (In fairness, Chuan got pretty close, but had other flaws, as mentioned elsewhere.)

Edited March 2, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Forethat]

If you look to what the Labour party as done to the UK over the last 12 years and then see just how many fools still vote for them come election time it may help you understand democracy.

[wayfarer108]

If you look to what the Labour party as done to the UK over the last 12 years and then see just how many fools still vote for them come election time it may help you understand democracy.

That's the problem in a nutshell, isn't it? Democracy doesn't guarantee good governance.

[mackland]

wife and i were watching thai satellite tv and it showed a pro thaksin crowd in udon, she yelled "my father is at the front, oh and my uncle to", her father is a retired senior policeman and her uncle just recently retired from the army.

i knew the answer but i asked her "why do they stand at the front? "to protect the other red shirts, the police and army boys respect them",

Both of those two gentlemen are firm thaksin supporters, they really believe he has done a lot for the issan battlers and that the PAD is for the bkk elite.

[mogoso]

Keep in mind the sources people, a Taxi driver, a chilli farmer from a buri somewhere... They are not the most educated people in Thailand and are quite responsive to the over simplified, classic poor vs. rich propaganda that taxsin is all about.

Is the classic poor vs rich propaganda limited to Thailand? In the US the Democrats win their elections with the same spiel. Our present Pres., talks pretty and well he should with his high fangled Ivy league education, but that doesn't equate to common sense. I've know some pretty sage country folk with no education as well as the expected numb nuts. The same goes for city slickers, some smart some barely above pond scum in intellect. To classify country folk as a whole as easy swayed by shiny things does them a disservice. The contrast would have us believe that city folk with a higher education have a better sense of things. In either case both parties are acting in, what they perceive to be, their self interest.

[kikoman]

Thaksin was a smart politician, he build a political base among the poor by implementing programs that help the poor, While he lined his pockets with the policies he implemented to help the rich, for all of his supposed love for the poor, he would not pay his share of the income tax to aid them!

If you are poor and having a hard time feeding and educating your family, you do not look at the big picture! You look at the realities of your life and problems, Politicians in the ruling party if they had a little bit of sense, would implement programs for the poor and eroded Thaksin political base, but they do not ,who's fault is it?

I do not discuss the issue with people in my village, as there is great following of the understanding he had for the poor in Thailand, even if it was only to expand his own political base.

Most of you fail to understand that the majority rules concept of Democracy, and the majority of the people in Thailand are the poor and forgotten. Prime example of conditions that can be used and exploited!

Cheers:

[phetaroi]

If someone in politics does something to make your and your family's life better, you will support that politician. Thaksin did many things for poor people here, so this is shocking that they like him? The only shocking things about this conversation are that OP cannot understand this, and that the OP considers the Thai guy to be the ignorant one.

Oh, and Tomahawk...I think you need to go back and read my original post...which I doubt you did before responding. I was not shocked that they like Thaksin. I understand they like his progressive stances that, from their perspectives, have helped them in their villages.

Here's what I said: That the taxi driver said, "We all live just like the people in Burma....I was stunned by just how brainwashed some of these people are to think that their government and living conditions are suddenly equivalent -- under Abhisit -- to the Burmese junta."

[phetaroi]

What a puzzling post, and more evidence how far Bangkok Farangs are separated from what happens in Thailand as a whole.

Apparently the OP is shocked that in a country that's politically roughly split through the middle, he finds a person who likes Thaksin/PTP. Whoa. And a taxi driver no-less! Who would have thought.

Also, I wouldn't bet on it being HIM who is brainwashed! Ever looked at a copy of a Thai mainsteam English language newspaper recently (any, any day) ?

Thirdly, you turned to politics as a discussion topic, and now you're upset that he doesn't parrot your Bangkok-urban middle class views? Honestly if you're this easily upset in a political conversation, may I suggest the weather as a topic?

Then in the ensuing discussion on this forum, you make arguments about Thaksin that are your views, which is fine, that's what goes on 24/7 in the news clippings forum: Farangs ranting about their Thai poltical opinions, very much including Yours Truly. But what was originally refreshing about this particular topic here was that at least the starting point was the opinion of an actual Thai person, who actually gets to vote. My main issue to be honest is not whether Thaksin is Gandhi or Marcos or Satan himself, but whether Thailand can get to a genuine democracy, and if the WHOLE of Thailand can enjoy equal rights and prosper, not just the Happy Few.

What's puzzling is how far from accuracy your post is.

1. I'm not shocked at all that a country is split down the middle politically. I see it here and I see it back in America.

2. I understand exactly why many Thais like Thaksin. I see exactly what he has done for the poorer communities in Thailand. Not unlike many of the progressive politicians in the States.

But here's my challenge to you. You said above, "Then in the ensuing discussion on this forum, you make arguments about Thaksin that are your views." No, I actually haven't...although others have and have strayed way off the topic I originally posted about. The theme of my post and those after the original were about Thais thinking they are living exactly like the people in Burma. Please quote the sentences I have posted here about my personal views of Thaksin.

[phetaroi]

I think I did not explain things well. What I am trying to say is the opposite. Not that people are dumb for supporting Thaksin, but that it is obviously human nature to support people that do things beneficial to you. I cannot understand how my statements can be construed as saying people do not care about their country? And as far as motives go, perhaps I am cynical, but I believe every politicians main motive is to keep their job, which in a democracy means getting reelected. if the president or congressman in America takes some action which is good for the country, my family, and myself, I don't wrry about analyzing their psychological motives for doing it.

Which politician in Thailand or anywhere for that matter is truly selfless? I do not know of any.

Thank you for clarifying.

I think part of the challenge in talking about "politics" (regardless of the country involved) is that there really are two aspects of it -- first there's the concept of those elected doing the "right thing" for the electorate. And then there's practical politics.

I rarely feel sorry for politicians, but I'm not so sure that it's an easy profession. For example -- and I'll take an American political example -- you get elected to Congress and a vote comes up on abortion. You represent a very liberal enclave outside SanFrancisco. You're personally morally opposed to abortion...think it's one of the worst sins, but the vast majority of your constituents are in favor of abortion rights. Which way do you vote? Do you truly represent your constituents even when you are totally morally opposed to their views? That's part of the philosophy of politics.

Then there's the purely practical side. If you don't reflect the views of your constituents (at least very often), you don't get re-elected, and then you can't accomplish any of your goals politically.

I'm not sure you can exist as a politician and be "truly selfless".

Despite what some people think -- inaccurately, by the way -- I've said about Thaksin in this thread, I actually have a very mixed and incomplete view of his accomplishments...just as I tend to have mixed views about most politicians accomplishments, whether Thai or American. I think Mr. Thaksin had a very similar view of politics to that of Tip O'Neill...who happens to be someone I really liked. O'Neill often said, "All politics is local." And that is exactly why Mr. Thaksin has so much support out in many of the provinces.

And again, I want to point out that what my original post and succeeding posts (except for this one) have been about is my not understanding how any Thai thinks they are living under the same conditions as the people of Burma.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

If you look to what the Labour party as done to the UK over the last 12 years and then see just how many fools still vote for them come election time it may help you understand democracy.

That's the problem in a nutshell, isn't it? Democracy doesn't guarantee good governance.

It does however pretty much guarantee that as a country you don't end up like Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Cambodia under Pol Pot, etc, etc. Take away democracy and you're at the whim of the people with the guns.

Nobody claims democracy is perfect. <insert Churchill's quote>

[WinnieTheKhwai]

If someone in politics does something to make your and your family's life better, you will support that politician. Thaksin did many things for poor people here, so this is shocking that they like him? The only shocking things about this conversation are that OP cannot understand this, and that the OP considers the Thai guy to be the ignorant one.

Oh, and Tomahawk...I think you need to go back and read my original post...which I doubt you did before responding. I was not shocked that they like Thaksin. I understand they like his progressive stances that, from their perspectives, have helped them in their villages.

Here's what I said: That the taxi driver said, "We all live just like the people in Burma....I was stunned by just how brainwashed some of these people are to think that their government and living conditions are suddenly equivalent -- under Abhisit -- to the Burmese junta."

I think someone already answered that one. He meant Burma as a metaphor for a poverty stricken country, where most of the population has no power and really no hope of things ever getting better. It's honestly not that shocking. It's definitely hyperbole because of course things are nowhere near as bad as Burma. But that's what people do in political conversations; compare it to saying that the US is becoming a socialist country: the point is to raise a political concern, where factually it's complete nonsense.

(I honestly hope this explains it, please everyone read the above twice and count to 10 before responding. )

Edited March 3, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

1. I'm not shocked at all that a country is split down the middle politically. I see it here and I see it back in America.

2. I understand exactly why many Thais like Thaksin. I see exactly what he has done for the poorer communities in Thailand. Not unlike many of the progressive politicians in the States.

Ok, agreed.

But here's my challenge to you. You said above, "Then in the ensuing discussion on this forum, you make arguments about Thaksin that are your views." No, I actually haven't...although others have and have strayed way off the topic I originally posted about. The theme of my post and those after the original were about Thais thinking they are living exactly like the people in Burma. Please quote the sentences I have posted here about my personal views of Thaksin.

<Just read back the entire topic> and I have to admit you're correct, I must have mistaken somone elses post for yours.. Apologies for that! So yes, I do accept the above clarification of your point. We also agree that the situation in Thailand is of course not as bad or even directly comparable to Burma. Par for the course in a political discussion though.

To be honest there aren't that many countries that are _currently_ directly comparable to Thailand; I guess that makes it so interesting. Thailand is pretty much a 'managed democracy' with pretty well established personal and economic freedoms.

Edited March 3, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[phetaroi]

1. I'm not shocked at all that a country is split down the middle politically. I see it here and I see it back in America.

2. I understand exactly why many Thais like Thaksin. I see exactly what he has done for the poorer communities in Thailand. Not unlike many of the progressive politicians in the States.

Ok, agreed.

But here's my challenge to you. You said above, "Then in the ensuing discussion on this forum, you make arguments about Thaksin that are your views." No, I actually haven't...although others have and have strayed way off the topic I originally posted about. The theme of my post and those after the original were about Thais thinking they are living exactly like the people in Burma. Please quote the sentences I have posted here about my personal views of Thaksin.

<Just read back the entire topic> and I have to admit you're correct, I must have mistaken somone elses post for yours.. Apologies for that! So yes, I do accept the above clarification of your point. We also agree that the situation in Thailand is of course not as bad or even directly comparable to Burma. Par for the course in a political discussion though.

To be honest there aren't that many countries that are _currently_ directly comparable to Thailand; I guess that makes it so interesting. Thailand is pretty much a 'managed democracy' with pretty well established personal and economic freedoms.

I appreciate your comments. So, naturally, I think you're a wise poster!

Discussing politics is a challenge. People get heated up over things and easily jump to conclusions...including me!!! Sometimes especially me!

[wayfarer108]

wife and i were watching thai satellite tv and it showed a pro thaksin crowd in udon, she yelled "my father is at the front, oh and my uncle to", her father is a retired senior policeman and her uncle just recently retired from the army.

i knew the answer but i asked her "why do they stand at the front? "to protect the other red shirts, the police and army boys respect them",

Both of those two gentlemen are firm thaksin supporters, they really believe he has done a lot for the issan battlers and that the PAD is for the bkk elite.

The police, the army and most rural voters in Germany were also firm supporters of Adolph Hitler in the 1930s. Just because the so-called 'salt of the earth' support a politician doesn't make him the best person for the job.

Supporters of the PAD come primarily from Bangkok, central Thailand and southern Thailand. True these are the more educated regions of the country but that doesn't necessarily make them elite.

I don't support either the PAD or the UDD as both employ ugly tactics. However only the New Politics Party actually offers a electoral solution that promises representation from all regions and all sectors of society, not unlike systems found in Belgium, Germany, Jordan and quite a few other countries where historical issues or ethnic/social polarisation makes a majoritarian democracy unworkable.

[Maizefarmer]

Phetaroi

Your taxi driver was bang on the mark - the current government is indeed all about [self] reliance politics, and a large percentage of Thai society - excluding urban progressives, of course - are deeply resentful about this. That said, I have my doubts that Thaksin would have ultimately turned out to be the solution. Speaking for myself, I was glad to see the back of him (however illegal the coup was - and it was).

Corruption and abuse of power for self gain seems to be common to most of the governments Thailand has had - they're all as bad as each other.

[CaptHaddock]

Oh, and Tomahawk...I think you need to go back and read my original post...which I doubt you did before responding. I was not shocked that they like Thaksin. I understand they like his progressive stances that, from their perspectives, have helped them in their villages.

Here's what I said: That the taxi driver said, "We all live just like the people in Burma....I was stunned by just how brainwashed some of these people are to think that their government and living conditions are suddenly equivalent -- under Abhisit -- to the Burmese junta."

The current government of Thailand seems quite similar to Burma's in my opinion. In both cases the military has seized control and continue to prevent democratically elected politicians from taking power. The tactics of the Burmese generals are much worse and Thaksin is certainly no Aung San Suu Kyi, but the result is that the will of the people is suppressed. As you recognize, the bulk of the Thai electorate is correctly identifying its economic interests with Thaksin. Abhisit is just a PR face on the junta. Your Thai taxi driver is not fooled. And if the velvet glove proves ineffective, Burmese-style tactics can be brought to bear as they have in 1976, for example. The elite will never willingly share power and wealth with the more numerous lower classes. So democracy is not possible.

What I find a little shocking is your inability to understand the political view of the underclass which seems pretty coherent to me.

[phetaroi]

The current government of Thailand seems quite similar to Burma's in my opinion. In both cases the military has seized control and continue to prevent democratically elected politicians from taking power. The tactics of the Burmese generals are much worse and Thaksin is certainly no Aung San Suu Kyi, but the result is that the will of the people is suppressed. As you recognize, the bulk of the Thai electorate is correctly identifying its economic interests with Thaksin. Abhisit is just a PR face on the junta. Your Thai taxi driver is not fooled. And if the velvet glove proves ineffective, Burmese-style tactics can be brought to bear as they have in 1976, for example. The elite will never willingly share power and wealth with the more numerous lower classes. So democracy is not possible.

What I find a little shocking is your inability to understand the political view of the underclass which seems pretty coherent to me.

The people of Burma are living under a truly oppressive regime 24/7.

Here there may be an occasional coup, and a few have been bloody (such as the one you mention from 34 years ago). I see an awfully lot of personal freedom here. Even when the security law is in effect, I certainly don't see oppression 24/7.

I am reminded of what a person I truly don't like (Mahathir from Malaysia) once said -- Every country's democracy doesn't have to be the American version of democracy.

[ivowatson]

The current government of Thailand seems quite similar to Burma's in my opinion. In both cases the military has seized control and continue to prevent democratically elected politicians from taking power. The tactics of the Burmese generals are much worse and Thaksin is certainly no Aung San Suu Kyi, but the result is that the will of the people is suppressed. As you recognize, the bulk of the Thai electorate is correctly identifying its economic interests with Thaksin. Abhisit is just a PR face on the junta. Your Thai taxi driver is not fooled. And if the velvet glove proves ineffective, Burmese-style tactics can be brought to bear as they have in 1976, for example. The elite will never willingly share power and wealth with the more numerous lower classes. So democracy is not possible.

What I find a little shocking is your inability to understand the political view of the underclass which seems pretty coherent to me.

The current government of Thailand is actually much worse than the Burmese. Over there you know what you get. No puppets there with fake smiles and lies. Here, it only seems people are free but we all know that's not true. H@ll, I don't feel free here for a moment. You're right, Abbhisit is the devil in disguise. I suspect he's torturing some reds single handedly at this very moment. Didn't some of the Burmese generals study in Oxford as well? I'm thinking of moving to Burma. You think they have some Burmese version of TV?

[mauGR1]

The current government of Thailand seems quite similar to Burma's in my opinion. In both cases the military has seized control and continue to prevent democratically elected politicians from taking power. The tactics of the Burmese generals are much worse and Thaksin is certainly no Aung San Suu Kyi, but the result is that the will of the people is suppressed. As you recognize, the bulk of the Thai electorate is correctly identifying its economic interests with Thaksin. Abhisit is just a PR face on the junta. Your Thai taxi driver is not fooled. And if the velvet glove proves ineffective, Burmese-style tactics can be brought to bear as they have in 1976, for example. The elite will never willingly share power and wealth with the more numerous lower classes. So democracy is not possible.

What I find a little shocking is your inability to understand the political view of the underclass which seems pretty coherent to me.

The current government of Thailand is actually much worse than the Burmese. Over there you know what you get. No puppets there with fake smiles and lies. Here, it only seems people are free but we all know that's not true. H@ll, I don't feel free here for a moment. You're right, Abbhisit is the devil in disguise. I suspect he's torturing some reds single handedly at this very moment. Didn't some of the Burmese generals study in Oxford as well? I'm thinking of moving to Burma. You think they have some Burmese version of TV?

Ha ha ivo,after the first 2 lines i was going to tell you to go to Burma as well,thank you for the irony it gave me a chuckle.

To get back to the OP i had a very similar conversation with a motorbike mechanic a few months ago,

More than shocked i was saddened at how easily people get brainwashed by the media,but,wait i was gullible too when i was very young