Working For Your Own Country But Living Here

[girlx]

i am anticipating being offered a contract in the US which lets me do the work from here (yay) but will still pay me US$ and take out taxes as normal. is anyone else doing this and is there any legal consideration i should make or is it a-ok? i am on a tourist visa now but i am not working for a thai company so shouldn't it be fine?

[Ajarn]

Depends on the job, but yes, it is done. I work as a Consultant for a company in California, but I live here. None of Thailand's business.

I thought you said you just got a new job doing something in the media?

[girlx]

i did, but one has many options, doesn't one? i would obviously rather make US$!

[peter991]

Ajarn: Can you please expand on this. I thought if you did ANY work, paid or otherwise (even as a Consultant for an overseas based company), you need a work permit.

I was told I would need a non-immigrant class B visa and have a work permit to work in Thailand.

Even the post-tsunami volunteers needed work permits to stay in Thailand.

Peter

[Ajarn]

Ajarn: Can you please expand on this. I thought if you did ANY work, paid or otherwise (even as a Consultant for an overseas based company), you need a work permit.

I was told I would need a non-immigrant class B visa and have a work permit to work in Thailand.

Even the post-tsunami volunteers needed work permits to stay in Thailand.

Peter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

None of my work involves or benefits Thailand in any way, and my money is not sent to Thailand, making it untaxable in Thailand... It's all done on the internet.

Otherwise, you'd need a WP for EBAY businesses, to do online stock trading, to maintain your homepage on the internet, etc... It's all work, too.

I feel quite secure that I'm playin' it by the rules here.

The Tsunami volunteers did not need WP's to stay in Thailand, they needed WP's to WORK in Thailand.

[OldAsiaHand]

Ajarn: Can you please expand on this. I thought if you did ANY work, paid or otherwise (even as a Consultant for an overseas based company), you need a work permit.

I was told I would need a non-immigrant class B visa and have a work permit to work in Thailand.

Even the post-tsunami volunteers needed work permits to stay in Thailand.

Peter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you ask Immigration, they will tell you that Peter991 is absolutely right. All work performed in Thailand, whether you are paid or not and whether it has anything to do with Thailand or not requires a valid work permit. Of course that is stupid and unenforceable as a practical matter, but if you want to make that argument to Immigration as to why you really don't need a work permit, I wish you would tell us where and when you will be doing it so we can all come along and have a good laugh.

On the other hand, I doubt you will be doing that. If you do what you are proposing and keep your head down (as do many people), it seems highly unlikely that you will ever have a problem. After all, remember that prostitution, too, is illegal in Thailand.

Still, do not convince yourself that you have cleverly discovered a loophole the law. You are breaking it, and if anyone with official power here wants to nail you at some point in the future, they will have no difficulty at all doing so. It's just that the odds against happening historically have run in your favor and there is no particular reason to think they will not continue to do so. Good luck.

Edited May 15, 2005 by OldAsiaHand

[Ajarn]

Ajarn: Can you please expand on this. I thought if you did ANY work, paid or otherwise (even as a Consultant for an overseas based company), you need a work permit.

I was told I would need a non-immigrant class B visa and have a work permit to work in Thailand.

Even the post-tsunami volunteers needed work permits to stay in Thailand.

Peter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you ask Immigration, they will tell you that Peter991 is absolutely right. All work performed in Thailand, whether you are paid or not and whether it has anything to do with Thailand or not requires a valid work permit. Of course that is stupid and unenforceable as a practical matter, but if you want to make that argument to Immigration as to why you really don't need a work permit, I wish you would tell us where and when you will be doing it so we can all come along and have a good laugh.

On the other hand, I doubt you will be doing that. If you do what you are proposing and keep your head down (as do many people), it seems highly unlikely that you will ever have a problem. After all, remember that prostitution, too, is illegal in Thailand.

Still, do not convince yourself that you have cleverly discovered a loophole the law. You are breaking it, and if anyone with official power here wants to nail you at some point in the future, they will have no difficulty at all doing so. It's just that the odds against happening historically have run in your favor and there is no particular reason to think they will not continue to do so. Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One man's opinion.

[ChiangMaiThai]

its utter bullshit that you need a work permit to do work for a company based outside of Thailand, when you are also paid outside of thailand. Should all the businessmen here for a few weeks down on the beach go to immigration and request permission before they make a business call to the office? I'm about to send an email about business to the office in the US. Should I apply for a work permit first?

And if people in power want you out, you will be out regardless of the legality of your immigration status.

[rainman]

I work and live in Thailand for my own foreign companies, getting paid from overseas.

[~G~]

i am anticipating being offered a contract in the US which lets me do the work from here (yay) but will still pay me US$ and take out taxes as normal. is anyone else doing this and is there any legal consideration i should make or is it a-ok? i am on a tourist visa now but i am not working for a thai company so shouldn't it be fine?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends on your interpretation of the law. Formally it's stated you cannot do any work whatsoever without a WP (and some lawyers would argue that). But practically it seems like as long as you don't work for any Thai body it's fine.

[Ajarn]

its utter bullshit that you need a work permit to do work for a company based outside of Thailand, when you are also paid outside of thailand. Should all the businessmen here for a few weeks down on the beach go to immigration and request permission before they make a business call to the office? I'm about to send an email about business to the office in the US. Should I apply for a work permit first?

And if people in power want you out, you will be out regardless of the legality of your immigration status.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I'm going with common sense on this one, too .

And also, "Sometimes shit just happens"

[OldAsiaHand]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One man's opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it is. But then, that one man was the Director of Immigration for the Bangkok region when I asked him and it is his view that I related. "If you ask Immigration,..." you will recall I clearly said.

Of course, you are such a smug prat that probably doesn't make the slightest difference to you.

[simey]

The important extract of all these posts - keep your head down. Same goes for working in any country, in any area. And think about it, if you live in thailand bringing money in and spending it every month there will not be much of an impetus to make you leave, basically you are a long term tourist and that is money in the bank for thais. As far as they are concerned you won the lottery/got an inheritence/whatever, and just let them beleive that.

But make sure you are careful who you tell, bragging down the bar about how much your dollars are worth might get somebody upset and you need to keep a low profile.

[Oleg_Rus]

this statement gives an absolute power over any foreigner here. Just a claim of working without WP - and he is guilty on the spot. Hence any dispute would be in favor of locals. so at the fair ground 99% of foreigners have to be arrested, detained and departed - they are working without WP and very often even without B-visa.

[ChiangMaiThai]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One man's opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it is. But then, that one man was the Director of Immigration for the Bangkok region when I asked him and it is his view that I related. "If you ask Immigration,..." you will recall I clearly said.

Of course, you are such a smug prat that probably doesn't make the slightest difference to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We all know that technically you need the WP. But technically prostitution is illegal and technically you can't stay here month after month on 30 day stamps and technically this and technically that. Who the ###### cares about technicalities? Not me. I care about how the laws are interpreted and APPLIED. You're sending emails and making phone calls while on a very long holiday. End of story.

[Indo-Siam]

Here is how I address this issue about "working" in Thailand:

Thailand is still a nation of laws - and to be convicted of an offense here still requires evidence. I have appeared in court (Labor Court) as defendant (employer) - and lost - but it was a fair hearing.

With that said, the issue can be "reduced to absurdity" by trying to visualize a courtroomn, and a prosecutor presenting evidence to convict a foreigner of "working without a work permit." Envision:

"Your honor, I present Exhibit A - a photo of the defendent at an Internet shop, "working" on a computer - see that's him, the fourth farang on the right, in-between the two bigger foreigners.

Exhibit B - here is a photo of the defendant standing in line at an ATM machine, picking up his earnings - that's him, the sixth foreigner in line - in-between the big block African guy, and the fat bald white guy.

Exhibit C - Here is an incriminating photo of the defendant, standing in line at the post office, waiting to mail a package of goods to a customer - there he is, number six in the packages line.

Just try playing out the details, and the whole issue collapses into absurdity. If you are "working here" in a manner that is indistinguishable from what tourists and retirees here are doing, then you are effectively invisible here.

What you do lose by proceeding without a work permit is any ability to lodge a complaint against a Thai vendor or supplier, or a local customer who decides not to pay you. You are also vulnerable to blackmail by disgruntled Thai employees, landlords, or competitors.

People that are at risk for "freelancing" are those whose business activity is in the nightlife or tourism fields - including dive shop divemasters, tour guides, bar managers, and similar. Thai officials do tend to search out these types - usually more as extortion targets, as oppposed to trying to enforce the rules.

Also - as far as I know - Immigration could care less about you having a work permit - so long as - if you are working - you have a valid Class B entry permit. Enforcing Work Permit rules is a Labor Ministry function - not an Immigration Police function. If you are working without a work permit or a Class B visa, then Immigration is interested - because you are violating the Immigration rules for your entry permit status.

Ministries and Departments in Thailand do not tend to enforce the rules of other Ministries - why do someone else's work for them?

What everyone needs to remember is that if you manage to cobble together four or five years of working here in "dodgy" status - working illegally, with a string of 30-day entries on arrival mixed together with tourist visas - and THEN your ship finally comes in, and you manage to land a real job here - when it comes time to fill out the work permit application, you have to explain to the Labor Ministry how you maged to spend four or five years in Thailand without working illegally - and they are not particulaly easy to brush aside.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[girlx]

that makes sense... but would one need the non-imm B visa if they are not working for a Thai company?

[~G~]

that makes sense... but would one need the non-imm B visa if they are not working for a Thai company?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're not married to a Thai, not over 50, and cannot invest a major sum of money, what alternatives have you got? 2+1 months tourist visa?

[girlx]

well, yes, exactly, multi-entry... i don't think you can get the year extension on a B visa without a work permit...

[patricktan]

How are you going to pay your income tax? Thai or US or Both?

[bkk_mike]

I have asked immigration in the past - and got told that they don't care about work permits, unless you're here on a non-B. (as you need the work permit to extend). Admittedly, I'm here on a non-O as my wife is Thai.

i.e. So long as you are in Thailand legally, immigration have no issues with you telecommuting back to a job abroad. If they did, do they stop tourists logging in to their office on their laptop?

I know an MD of Chase who's been to Phuket for holidays a few times with his family. You think he doesn't log in and check his email while he's here? Is that not working? Do you think any wealthy person would come to Thailand for a holiday if they needed to get a work permit to check their office email?

Thailand is never going to crack down on telecommuters saying they need work permits because they don't gain anything by doing it. It's not like the telecommuters are taking jobs from locals (unlike volunteers who might be), and any suggestion that logging into your office in the west from Thailand would need a work permit would hit high-end tourism.

[Sunny Valentine]

Bkk Mike, you' re arguing with logic. This might not be the right approach to Thai bureaucrazy, I am afraid.

They say they want to clamp down on their youth's misuse of alcohol; and forbid anybody to buy Alcohol in the morning or between 2 and 5pm; unless you buy larger quantities. No logic in it, but enforced.

They say they want to clamp down on prostitution, and do this by forcing all licensed bars and the like to close down at 1 am or earlier; no problem for the sex tourists, as they want to be in bed by that time anyway, but a burden to tourism. No logic, but enforced.

I could carry on with this list ... Thais have a history of having stupid and illogical regulations on paper, that are enforced at will, or not, depending on lots of factors; logic is obviously not one of them.

In theory, a tourist who is checking his mails while on holiday, is doing something illegal. Is this enforced? No, not now, but it could any time.

take care!

Sunny

[capco1]

Here is how I address this issue about "working" in Thailand:

Thailand is still a nation of laws - and to be convicted of an offense here still requires evidence.  I have appeared in court (Labor Court) as defendant (employer) - and lost - but it was a fair hearing.

With that said, the issue can be "reduced to absurdity" by trying to visualize a courtroomn, and a prosecutor presenting evidence to convict a foreigner of "working without a work permit."    Envision:

"Your honor, I present Exhibit A - a photo of the defendent at an Internet shop, "working" on a computer - see that's him, the fourth farang on the right, in-between the two bigger foreigners.

Exhibit B - here is a photo of the defendant standing in line at an ATM machine, picking up his earnings - that's him, the sixth foreigner in line - in-between the big block African guy, and the fat bald white guy.

Exhibit C - Here is an incriminating photo of the defendant, standing in line at the post office, waiting to mail a package of goods to a customer - there he is, number six in the packages line.

Just try playing out the details, and the whole issue collapses into absurdity.  If you are "working here" in a manner that is indistinguishable from what tourists and retirees here are doing, then you are effectively invisible here.

What you do lose by proceeding without a work permit is any ability to lodge a complaint against a Thai vendor or supplier, or a local customer who decides not to pay you.  You are also vulnerable to blackmail by disgruntled Thai employees, landlords, or competitors.

People that are at risk for "freelancing" are those whose business activity is in the nightlife or tourism fields - including dive shop divemasters, tour guides, bar managers, and similar.  Thai officials do tend to search out these types - usually more as extortion targets, as oppposed to trying to enforce the rules.

Also - as far as I know - Immigration could care less about you having a work permit - so long as - if you are working - you have a valid Class B entry permit.  Enforcing Work Permit rules is a Labor Ministry function - not an Immigration Police function.  If you are working without a work permit or a Class B visa, then Immigration is interested - because you are violating the Immigration rules for your entry permit status.

Ministries and Departments in Thailand do not tend to enforce the rules of other Ministries - why do someone else's work for them?

What everyone needs to remember is that if you manage to cobble together four or five years of working here in "dodgy" status - working illegally, with a string of 30-day entries on arrival mixed together with tourist visas - and THEN your ship finally comes in, and you manage to land a real job here - when it comes time to fill out the work permit application, you have to explain to the Labor Ministry how you maged to spend four or five years in Thailand without working illegally - and they are not particulaly easy to brush aside.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Upcountry]

Very interesting discussion. I guess all this uncertainty adds to the mystery and charm of living here.

Slightly tangent to this:

I have a friend in the US who is looking for a part-time employee with strong (native) English and computer skills to do on-line support for a new software product. It's a 20-hour a week job that would pay nearly 27k baht, before taxes.

The employer is based in the US. At the moment he's only set up to pay to US accounts, so this job is perhaps more appropriate for an expat who has a good Internet connection and a US bank account. It would incur US taxes.

I'm interested in finding out how he can best pay someone without US connections. What would be the best bank with a US presence - Bangkok Bank? Obviously, there would be conversion issues, but I think the employer would be willing to adjust the $'s to reflect the Thai result - if necessary. Don't quote me on that.

I'm guessing, from the posts so far on this forum, that getting paid to the Thai bank would make it more likely the employee would need a work permit (or get caught if he didn't have one). The amount is not high enough to qualify at any rate, right?

The other alternative is to find a UK or Aussie bank as the case may be. But I'm clueless about which ones. Any ideas?

PM, me, obviously, if the job interests you in any way. I'll probably post it elsewhere as soon as I have more info about compensation methods.

[girlx]

I could do it but to be honest there is no incentive for doing it at all, as I can get the same money from a Thai employer. The only advantage to working for an American employer from here is that we'd get paid the American dollars, even if less than we would normally make. But don't be a cheapskate, come on. Maybe he should look in India.

[bkk_mike]

It's a 20-hour a week job that would pay nearly 27k baht, before taxes.

The employer is based in the US.  At the moment he's only set up to pay to US accounts, so this job is perhaps more appropriate for an expat who has a good Internet connection and a US bank account. It would incur US taxes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What US taxes?

If you're not physically in the US, the US gives an $85K tax exemption to apply against your tax bill. - 27K baht a month is a LOT less than $85K, so no Income tax. You might still be hit by social security etc. though.

It might affect the tax position of an American, but wouldn't affect anyone else (as no other income to which US taxes would apply), but if an American is hitting the $85K mark, I wouldn't expect them to take a 27K baht month part-time job.

You might, in theory, also be hit with some sort of State taxes, but which State? Especially if the person they end up employing isn't American.

Personally, 27K isn't a lot of money, even for 4 hours a day, and to get a native English speaker to do it, you're best bet is probably a teacher in their spare time. (since they are notoriously badly paid).

[Upcountry]

Folks, thanks for your feedback so far.

I realize the rate isn't very high, and I've encouraged my friend to raise it. But he doesn't have a lot of recources until funding come in. That's a big challenge for small start-ups sometimes.

I should have added that there is potential for better pay later, but that's hard to promise. Yes, a teacher who needs some part-time extra income would be a good candidate. I can also imagine someone who needs a "foot in the door" to the computer field, with plans to move (back?) to the US. This could be a good resume item.

As for taxes, that would of course depend on other circumstances such as whether the contractor as a state of residence in the US, other income from there, and so on.

The main thing I'm still trying to find out is how my friend could pay someone who can't easily accept US funds. I appreciate the pay rate feedback, and I've passed it on.