How To Remove Farang Accent In My Thai

[farangnahrak]

In the US, there is an advanced ESL class called 'Remove your Accent'. It's specifically designed to help you sound like a 100% native born English speaker.

Are there any classes, skilled teachers, books, or techniques anywhere to help remove my farang accent?

Like most people, I can't hear my accent when I speak my second language, although its much more obvious when I record my voice and play it back to myself . . .

[tgeezer]

Same hear recordings are frightening, I don't feel it is peculiarly Thai, I feel the same about my English accent which has some iysle of Wyte in it and I bring that to Thai. The thing to do is keep making recordings and do some play acting; I should follow this advice but since Tape recorders I don;t think I have anything which can do this without a degree in Computing. The plus side of this is that I don't hear my accent.

[ELCata]

I don't know about 'removing your accent' but learning to speak Thai like a native is fraught with difficulties. Thai is a tonal language & mastering the intonation is especially difficult. Integrating this with emotional emphasis is perhaps the greatest hurdle for a speaker of a stress timed language such as English.

[withnail]

I don't know what level your Thai is currently at but in my experience I can usually tell from listening to a farang's Thai whether or not they have formally studied or not and most of the time the clear accent comes once they have passed the hurdle of learning to read Thai and are no longer reliant on transliteration. Certain US accents or particularly regional UK accents stand out a mile and one of the biggest problems is the continued pronunciation of vowels in their native language.

[farangnahrak]

withnail . . . I am at the level where there isn't much left for me to learn other than all the little nuances of the language . . . there are a *lot* of nuances left for me to learn lol . . . that and highly obscure vocabulary, which just doesn't interest me . . .

Point is . . . the longer I say things incorrectly (ie accent), the longer it'll take me to unlearn the accent.

[coma]

Ones ability to mimic the CORRECT sounds of a language is a great advantage.

However I found that when I learnt to read Thai my accent seemed to dissappear after time. I only know this as my teacher has told me it has. I have also noticed over the last few years that when I make appointments over the phone with somebody I have never meet , they seem to believe that they are talking to a Thai. When i go to meet them in person they get somewhat of a shock to see I am indeed not a Thai.

Therefore IMO reading Thai script is a must, which assists us in seeing and pronouncing the short/ long vowels, tones and the numerous foreign sounding constanants correctly, that will get the desired sound / accent.

[bmore99]

If you watch Thai people speaking, you'll notice that their tongue is constantly moving and they hardly make their throat vibrate. Contrary to English/American speakers whose tongue hardly moves, while producing some kind of continuous ringing tone in the throat.

The speech needs to be moved to the front of the mouth and the tongue must be agile.

And of course one needs to get rid of any shiness to speak loud and clear.

exercise saying pdoud iso proud; bdown iso brown; etc

I assume there are logopaedics books available with exercises.

[ELCata]

OK, some things I have learnt. Take the often heard 'khrap' for example, as in 'sawasdee dee khrap' = hello. There's a lot wrong with that transliteration, but time is a factor.

Lesson 1

Firstly, let's get rid of the smegging 'h' in 'khrap', for reasons which will become clear. So we have 'krap'.

Lesson 2

The 'k' in 'krap' is what is termed unaspirated, in the Thai language. Try saying 'krap' to yourself with your hand over your mouth. Do you feel a blast of air on your hand? If so, then the 'k' is aspirated. The 'k' should sound more like a 'g'; try to say 'krap' without blasting your hand then you have it. I've not mastered it yet, so don't punch yourself too hard.

The 'h' in the transliteration is supposed to convey that the preceding letter is 'unaspirated'.

If you ask a Thai the way to 'Krabi', he will be totally confused, but if you ask him the way to 'grabby', then he'll be slightly less confused.

Lesson 3

Have you noticed that some BMs write 'krap' & others write 'krab'?

Thais do not generally stress the final sound of a word. Therefore the 'b' or 'p' is what is termed 'unreleased'. Try saying 'krap' without opening your mouth after the 'b', then try saying 'krab' without opening your mouth after the 'p'. Do they sound the same?

Without what linguists call the 'small explosion' after pronouncing 'p' or 'b', they should sound the same.

Kap.:jap:

[bhoydy]

The 'h' in the transliteration is supposed to convey that the preceding letter is 'unaspirated'.

It's my understanding that the 'h' is supposed to convey 'aspiration', hence the 'h', but maybe i've got it wrong.

[Peppy]

The 'k' in 'krap' is what is termed unaspirated, in the Thai language. Try saying 'krap' to yourself with your hand over your mouth. Do you feel a blast of air on your hand? If so, then the 'k' is aspirated. The 'k' should sound more like a 'g'; try to say 'krap' without blasting your hand then you have it. I've not mastered it yet, so don't punch yourself too hard.

The 'h' in the transliteration is supposed to convey that the preceding letter is 'unaspirated'.

If you ask a Thai the way to 'Krabi', he will be totally confused, but if you ask him the way to 'grabby', then he'll be slightly less confused.

But I thought the "h" in the transliteration was to signal that the preceding letter was in fact aspirated--thus:

ครับ khrap (with an aspirated "k" - ค)

กระบี่ Krabi (with an unaspirated "k" - ก)

Am I wrong?

EDIT: Looks like Bhoydy got here first.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Peppy

[meadish_sweetball]

ElCata, your information about 'khráb' is incorrect. The first sound IS aspirated. Pronouncing it as unaspirated is definitely incorrect.

If you ask a Thai the way to 'Krabi', he will be totally confused, but if you ask him the way to 'grabby', then he'll be slightly less confused.

The first letter in 'krabii', unlike in 'khráb', is unaspirated. Using a 'g' is the best solution available if you stick to English sounds. However, a 'g' is usually voiced in English, which means that the sound is not the exact same one as in Thai - it just does not cause confusion. So if you really want to work away your accent, you should learn to pronounce an unaspirated 'k' sound properly, and this means no voicing. It is close to a 'g', but it is not the same. Lesson 3 is correct though.

[bhoydy]

In addition, ครับ khrap, krap or krab is spelt with ค khaw khwaay. (aspirated)

Krabi กระบี่ is spelt with ก gaw gai. (unaspirated)

Oh sorry, someone's already done this.

Edited February 16, 2011 by bhoydy

[ELCata]

Sorry I made a schoolboy mistake. For some reason I have never read or wrote 'krap', so made a silly assumption. It just seemed like a good word to explain everything in one go. Maybe I've heard too many 'Kaps' from condo security guards.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I am wrong (happens too often nowadays) so thank you for pointing out my error guys.:jap:

Edit: Yes, of course the 'h' means aspiration, as the voiced 'huh' would indicate; still hate transliteration though.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ELCata

[Rikker]

Lesson 2

The 'k' in 'krap' is what is termed unaspirated, in the Thai language. Try saying 'krap' to yourself with your hand over your mouth. Do you feel a blast of air on your hand? If so, then the 'k' is aspirated. The 'k' should sound more like a 'g'; try to say 'krap' without blasting your hand then you have it. I've not mastered it yet, so don't punch yourself too hard.

The 'h' in the transliteration is supposed to convey that the preceding letter is 'unaspirated'.

If you ask a Thai the way to 'Krabi', he will be totally confused, but if you ask him the way to 'grabby', then he'll be slightly less confused.

You've got that backwards. The 'h' in transcription conveys that the preceding letter is aspirated, and the k (ค) in krap/khrap is aspirated.

Lesson 3 is good advice, though. It's the sort of thing Thais have trouble teaching to foreigners because they're not consciously aware of it, or if they are they don't have the vocabulary to describe it, and thus can't explain with any precision what causes a foreigner's accent to sound non-native. I've always held that knowing the basics concepts of linguistics and phonetics helps one's Thai learning immensely.

Edit: Whoops--I forgot to refresh the window, I didn't see all the posts after #8. Apologies.

[farangnahrak]

Actually, Thais have at least 10 different ways to say 'krap', depending on the situation, and I've mastered them all.

As for reading mastery, it'll help you with Bangkok dialect greatly . . . however it has one major flaw - Thai people don't talk like a book . . . I've more recently been chatting online with Thais every day, and that forces me to learn ภาษาวัยรุ่น, it's basically the art of intentionally misspelling every other word to match the true pronunciation and street grammar, not to mention all the words that no Thai teacher would ever teach you [cough]. It's really hard though so I'm only starting to get the hang of it . . .

As for on the phone, it's pretty obvious I'm not Thai when speaking

I guess I'm looking for exercises that'll help me . . . or a teacher someone knows that specializes in this kinda thing . . .

. . . . maybe I should just squeeze my nose when I talk?

Edited February 16, 2011 by farangnahrak

[Tod Daniels]

Quite the interesting little thread going here , and something I have wondered about too!

My hat’s off to the O/P “cute-foreigner” for posting it..

It's my experience that the only thing which can 'dull' your foreign accented Thai is speaking nothing but Thai with Thais (day in/day out) but it will take many YEARS! Chat-speak, or M-speak has NOTHING to do with how you speak Thai in real life. It is an interesting diversion and you DO learn the current ways "youngsters" massacre Thai when they type. Being 52, I don't have a lotta patience for that type of interaction. I prefer my friends to be closer to my age than that of my son (who is 29)!

You're never gonna completely get rid of it (your foreign accent), no matter how much you’re patronized by people saying you speak Thai just like a Thai (In reality, you don’t, and they’re just being culturally polite). Nearly everyone you speak with will realize you're a non-native Thai speaker (even over the phone when they can't see for their own eyes you're a foreigner), if you speak to them long enough your foreign accented Thai or sentence constructs will give you away.

Just as observations;

The young guy who has a short t/v show in the afternoon called; "Wink, Wink English"; Adam Bradshaw, speaks pretty clear Thai BUT with a foreign accent. Andrew Biggs (easily the most recognized foreign Thai speaker in-country) also speaks Thai with a foreign accent. Even the "legend in his own mind"; Todd Lavelle, aka; Todd-Thong-Dee (who I jokingly refer to as; Todd "Good Stomach"); still has a foreign accent in his spoken Thai. Now both Andrew’s and Todd’s foreign accents are dulled somewhat after all the years they’ve been here, but if I put THAT many years here in-country I’d expect it to be like that. Christopher Wright (Chris Delivery) certainly speaks with a Thai accent, but as he's half Thai, I don't count him as a ‘real foreigner’.

I have found overall; Thais have a highly developed ability to discern (quite accurately) from the accent a native Thai speaker uses; where that person comes from regionally in this country (often down to the correct province)! I doubt you're ever gonna 'shed' your foreign accented Thai to the point Thais would EVER confuse you with a native speaker.

Whilst slightly off topic (it still is marginally interesting):

In one of Andrew Biggs' books he's got nearly an entire chapter about accents and how parents of Thai children come to his school saying to him, "I want my Thai child to speak English completely with a British or an American accent." He does lament the fact that not once, EVER, has a family come in and asked their children be taught English with an Auzzie accent, 555+. Go figure!

He goes on to tell the Thais to be proud enough of who/what they are to accept; facts are facts. They're gonna speak with a regionally S/E Asian (Thai) accent, just like the Koreans, the Japanese, and anyone else in this neck of the woods does when they speak English. Sheesh I know Thais who've been in America for 15+ years, speak flawless grammatical engrish (better than mine!) yet can't shed their Thai accent(s). One Thai girl I know has lived in rural Tennessee for 20 odd years. She speaks English with a southern drawl MIXED with a hint of a Thai accent!! It actually sounds kinda cute, lol.

If a foreigner has the toning & vowel length down, uses colloquial sentence constructs which are 100% free from "mother language interference"; EASILY the biggest impediment in speaking Thai clearly (next to vowel length and toning), they're understood by every level of Thai society, from the lowest street vendors to the highest government officials.

I will concur that ‘un-learning’ poor Thai pronunciation is a FAR tougher “row to hoe” than learning it correctly “outta the gate”. I struggle with it EVERY SINGLE DAY! Mostly because of the way I learned Thai. First I taught myself to read Thai (without tone rules!) and then I learned how to speak Thai. I am on the “short end of the stick” in that regard!

Personally, I don't think it's worth wasting even a second on really trying to speak Thai with a Thai accent, but that’s just me. Do I wanna speak clearly, correctly, so that the Thais understand me? MOST DEFINITELY!! But, do I wanna speak Thai with a Thai accent, hmmm; no, not so much.

FWIW: I have noticed quite often my observations and opinions run counter to those of other foreigners here. So don’t let me rain on anyone’s parade!..

I apologize for an overly verbose post . If you stuck with it, I hope you found it of some interest!

Edited February 16, 2011 by tod-daniels

[fredtitmus]

I am at the early stages of learning thai but i have learned the thai alphabet and are now going through the tonal system,i dont have a teacher i just learn with my tgf but something is becoming very clear,when i read a sentence out of one of the thai teaching books phonetically half of the time she doesnt understand me but when i read a sentence out from the thai script(where i can) she near enough always understands me and says its good thai.Unfortunetely its very slow progress.

may i just ask OP,do you read thai aswell and im curious why you want to speak like a thai,im not saying theres anything wrong with it,just wondered is it to be more thai or is it for a job or something like that.

Anyway until i can speak thai i will continue talking in my new english accent because she doesnt understand my north england (yorkshire) accent.

good thread chaps,very interesting!

[fredtitmus]

Sorry I made a schoolboy mistake. For some reason I have never read or wrote 'krap', so made a silly assumption. It just seemed like a good word to explain everything in one go. Maybe I've heard too many 'Kaps' from condo security guards.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I am wrong (happens too often nowadays) so thank you for pointing out my error guys.:jap:

Edit: Yes, of course the 'h' means aspiration, as the voiced 'huh' would indicate; still hate transliteration though.

i have adopted "sawadee kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarp" picked it up off a security guard,the thais seem to like it so will keep on doing it.

Edited February 16, 2011 by fredtitmus

[farangnahrak]

It's my experience that the only thing which can 'dull' your foreign accented Thai is speaking nothing but Thai with Thais (day in/day out) but it will take many YEARS! Chat-speak, or M-speak has NOTHING to do with how you speak Thai in real life. It is an interesting diversion and you DO learn the current ways "youngsters" massacre Thai when they type. Being 52, I don't have a lotta patience for that type of interaction. I prefer my friends to be closer to my age than that of my son (who is 29)!

You're never gonna completely get rid of it (your foreign accent), no matter how much you're patronized by people saying you speak Thai just like a Thai (In reality, you don't, and they're just being culturally polite). Nearly everyone you speak with will realize you're a non-native Thai speaker (even over the phone when they can't see for their own eyes you're a foreigner), if you speak to them long enough your foreign accented Thai or sentence constructs will give you away.

Yea well, I'm still in my 20's, hence the nahrak part in my name

I once knew a chinese man who lived in the US for 20 years and spoke barely understandable english, and a chinese lady who has been here for 15 years with equally as bad english. I'm sure my accent will improve over time on it's own, but just like learning vocab, it'll go much faster if I intentionally study it on a daily basis.

may i just ask OP,do you read thai aswell and im curious why you want to speak like a thai,im not saying theres anything wrong with it,just wondered is it to be more thai or is it for a job or something like that.

I've read like 50 something books in Thai, and I'd challenge any farang to a speed reading contest

(although my weak vocab still limits me compared to some of you guys)

So why want to speak perfect Thai? Why only climb a mountain halfway?

Although, there was one Thai girl who insisted that a farang accent is sexier than a perfect thai accent . . . she insisted she was serious, and that if I spoke perfect Thai, that I'd be 'boring'. Not so sure about that . . . anyone else get a comment like that before?

[meadish_sweetball]

If your main motivation for speaking Thai is success with the ladies, you don't actually need to learn that much. Just the fact that you can carry on a basic conversation will be enough for that purpose. The girl you talked to was probably looking for the exotic, same reason many foreign guys like Thai girls. I've heard foreigners consider a girl 'spoiled' once she has adapted more to Western ways. I guess it could be the same thing going on, but in reverse. I wouldn't worry so much about her opinion to be honest, your goal to speak perfect Thai is a good one, keep at it. In the eyes of people (women and men) who aren't out on a 'I got to score me some exotic tail' trip, you'll get much more respect for perseverance. Not to mention it will benefit you more in the long run.

[koknia]

Losing the falang accent has an easy answer that will take some time to execute - learn the tones and practice them like crazy.

When I studied Thai 20 years ago it was all about learning the written system and tone for each word.

I have just moved back and hear a lot of people trying to speak Thai without any conception that they are speaking a tonal language. Sounds horrible, and wrong.

[Petbon]

Fantastic to read of the efforts you are making with learning the language of this country.

My son moans that his Thai suffers whenever I come to stay! Like you guys, he works at speaking it properly, with some reading/writing. It amuses me that he avoids mixing with foreigners who speak it badly as he doesn't want to pick up their poor grammar etc.

[bifftastic]

A very interesting topic, thanks.

With regard to accents in general ( I can't really comment on Thai accents as I'm very much a beginner)

I have given this some thought on many occasions. In my home town, London, I hear many different versions of English, and there is more to 'native speaking' than just the accent.

I can hear someone speak and after a short while, if it's a London accent, I can pretty much tell you what part of the city that person is from.

My reaction to hearing foreigners mimic these subtle differences is, generally, why would you want to do that?

I can understand wanting to lose an accent, particularly if it's kind of 'thick' and colours your pronunciation, but the different words and inflections and those other little 'clues' that allow someone to identify your background and origins, to my mind anyway, aren't really 'up for grabs' as it were.

What I am impressed with is when a non-native speaker has the vocabulary and the pronunciation to hold a conversation without the other participants needing to adjust their hearing or comprehension in order to understand what they're saying.

Trying to come off like you were born down the road from Walthamstow dog track when, in fact, you hail from Stockholm, somehow grates a little, on my ears at least.

I don't know about Thai, but in England we all have a kind of 'general English' which we can slip into when speaking to other English people from different parts of the country. It has our accent but it doesn't have the colloquial, less mutually understandable terms that you will hear when people from the same area will use when they meet up.

For instance, I was in New York and met someone who was from my part of London. After about ten minutes, my New York born and raised friend had to pint out that whilst she recognised what we were speaking as English, she could no longer understand us!

Apologies for wandering slightly off topic but I wonder if this is the same in the Thai language and that, perhaps, the pursuit of sounding like a native Thai speaker might suffer from the same kind of issues.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,

Biff

[Murf]

Adopting a Thai accent is much like putting on a different accent from your own language.

For example, i am from the UK, oop norf, the have a totally different accent to those down south, in fact, there are loads of different accents in the UK.

Since i was a kid, i have had fun trying to master some of them. And the way to do it is to mimic. Take the p*ss, repeat parrot fashion.

Now i am not saying i am good at it, but i can do a London accent, a northern accent, an irish acccent, a scottish accent... etc...

I believe my Thai accent to be decent too, as i am often told i speak clearly.

[Rikker]

Being told you speak clearly is but one step along the path. Thais are, by and large, very supportive and complimentary of foreigners who make an effort to speak Thai.

I've noticed there is a rough progression of compliments (both direct and indirect) Thais pay to foreigners who make an effort to speak the language. Obviously it's nothing hard and fast, and depends on how many different foreigners they've heard try to speak. Mostly it's just something I've amused myself with, noticing how the comments people make change over the years as the accent improves.

พูดไทยเก่ง - "You speak Thai well" (doesn't mean much)

พูดไทยชัด - "You speak Thai clearly"

พูดไทยชัดมาก/ชัดแจ๋ว/etc - "Your Thai is really good/clear"

พูดไทยคล่อง - "Your Thai is fluent"

พูดไทยเหมือนคนไทยเลย - "You speak just like a Thai"

เป็นลูกครึ่งเหรือเปล่า/เกิดเมืองไทยหรือเปล่า/อยู่เมืองไทยกี่ปีเนี่ยะ - "Are you a luuk-khrueng?" / "Were you born in Thailand?" / "Geez, how long you lived in Thailand?"

Maybe that can help us figure out where exactly we stand.

[kikenyoy]

Rikker,

I've experienced a progression similar to what you wrote. I've heard #'s 1,2,3,6. Now when someone tells me พูดไทยเก่ง I get insulted.

I have one to add to the list. Last week I was talking to a fruit seller and had to say something beyond the usual small talk. The vendor next to him said พูดแข็งแรง when I finished. I'm guessing it should fit in about #3 or 4 on your list.

[Rikker]

Glad I'm not imagining it. Oh, and I forgot another one: พูดชัดกว่าคนไทยอีก.

The point isn't to get a big head with the compliments, rather to be aware that Thais are almost *always* complimentary, and to have a realistic idea of where one's accent might rank.

[bhoydy]

Being told you speak clearly is but one step along the path. Thais are, by and large, very supportive and complimentary of foreigners who make an effort to speak Thai.

I've noticed there is a rough progression of compliments (both direct and indirect) Thais pay to foreigners who make an effort to speak the language. Obviously it's nothing hard and fast, and depends on how many different foreigners they've heard try to speak. Mostly it's just something I've amused myself with, noticing how the comments people make change over the years as the accent improves.

พูดไทยเก่ง - "You speak Thai well" (doesn't mean much)

พูดไทยชัด - "You speak Thai clearly"

พูดไทยชัดมาก/ชัดแจ๋ว/etc - "Your Thai is really good/clear"

พูดไทยคล่อง - "Your Thai is fluent"

พูดไทยเหมือนคนไทยเลย - "You speak just like a Thai"

เป็นลูกครึ่งเหรือเปล่า/เกิดเมืองไทยหรือเปล่า/อยู่เมืองไทยกี่ปีเนี่ยะ - "Are you a luuk-khrueng?" / "Were you born in Thailand?" / "Geez, how long you lived in Thailand?"

Maybe that can help us figure out where exactly we stand.

The one i get from locals who speak the southern Thai dialect is พูดภาษาไทยเก่งกว่าเรา - He speaks better Thai than us. Although that is the central Thai equivalent i'm not sure how to write that in southern Thai, i can understand a fair amount of it but my ability and desire to speak it is limited. As far as the accent goes, i'm sure i have one because i'm forever making mistakes when pronouncing new words and even words i have known a long time that i speak with the wrong tone/vowel length when engaged in conversation. Fortunately i have plenty of students to laugh and correct me, but that doesn't mean to say i don't make the same mistake again. Personally, i don't make any effort to sound like a Thai i just pronounce the words as best i can in the way i've learned from Thai people, if that makes any sense. Having people to correct you is probably the best way to lose your accent although i wouldn't put too much focus on that.

It will be difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first - Myamoto Musashi

[Murf]

Glad I'm not imagining it. Oh, and I forgot another one: พูดชัดกว่าคนไทยอีก.

The point isn't to get a big head with the compliments, rather to be aware that Thais are almost *always* complimentary, and to have a realistic idea of where one's accent might rank.

I wasn't trying to be big headed and i do agree with all you said.

The point i was trying to make, or the advice i was trying to give, was to mimic the accent. Much like you mimic dialects in English.

[Ajaan]

I think there are three main areas one needs to address in order to remove (or lessen) one's "farang accent" when speaking Thai:

1. vowels. pay attention to the Thai vowels and dipthongs which do not exist in your native language; work on improving your accuracy at these vowels one at a time

2. consonants. pay particular attention to differentiating between aspirated, novoiced initial consonants in Thai (which, for example, we do not have in English) and aspirated initial consonants (which English does have, in spades). also make sure your final stop consonants are UNreleased when speaking Thai.

3. tones. in my experience, the rising and falling tones in Thai are not that difficult to "nail" for those whose native language is non-tonal. what IS hard, and what is the most frequent source of Thais not understanding your pronunciation of an otherwise well-rendered (vowel and consonant-wise) Thai word, is getting the following tones correct, in ascending order of importance/difficulty: 1) mid ("neutral") tone, 2) high tone (remember, it's not just high, it also rises a bit!) and 3) low tone. I cannot count the number of times when, as I was initially learning Thai, I tried to say the common term for bottled water (น้ำเปล่า), and, even though in every instance I was POINTING to said bottled water, I was greeted by completely blank looks by vendors. This is a great one to practice on, by the way, as it's a compound in which you have to nail a high tone followed directly by a low tone. When you can successfully pronounce this compound (without pointing to the water bottles!) and end up with the vendor handing you a bottle of water, grasshopper, then it will be time for you to leave, haha (apologies to anyone unfamiliar with the 1970s US television series "Kung <deleted>"...I'm showing my age!)

Note that the above guidelines assume that you've already achieved a fair level of fluency/fluidity of *grammar*/sentence construction...the OP did ask specifically about accent removal, after all.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Ajaan