Libyan government forces use landmines against rebels

[News_Editor]

Libyan government forces use landmines against rebels

2011-03-30 15:03:31 GMT+7 (ICT)

BENGHAZI (BNO NEWS) -- Libyan government forces have used antipersonnel and antivehicle mines against rebels during the ongoing conflict, which so far has claimed thousands of lives, a human rights organization said on Wednsday.

Human Rights Watch said two dozen antivehicle mines and roughly three dozen antipersonnel mines were found on the eastern outskirts of Ajdabiya on Monday. It is not known if there were other mines which may have contributed to casualties in recent weeks.

"Libya should immediately stop using antipersonnel mines, which most of the world banned years ago," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch. "Gaddafi's forces should ensure that mines of every type that already have been laid are cleared as soon as possible to avoid civilian casualties."

Abdal Minam al-Shanti, who is the electricity director for Eastern Libya, told Human Rights Watch that his employees discovered the mines at around 11 a.m. local time on Monday, when their truck ran over and detonated two antipersonnel mines laid underneath power pylons about one kilometer (0.6 mile) from Ajdabiya. The mines destroyed one front tire and one back tire of the truck, but no one was wounded or killed, al-Shanti said.

After the explosion, the electrical workers notified local civil defense workers who began searching for more mines in the area, al-Shanti said. In the immediate area where the mines had detonated, a civil defense team found and disarmed 24 antivehicle mines and an estimated 30 to 40 plastic antipersonnel mines, he said.

The mines were found a few yards off the main road between Ajdabiya and Benghazi, in an area frequented by civilians in vehicles and on foot, Human Rights Watch said, and thus posed a direct threat to the civilian population. Given the pedestrian and vehicular traffic in the area, the mines were clearly laid while government forces were in Ajdabiya between March 17 and March 27, Human Rights Watch said.

Libya is one of 37 nations that has not joined the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, which bans the use, production, and transfer of all antipersonnel mines.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2011-03-30

[Robby nz]

So we have 'human rights watch' has found some land mines and has made an assumption as to who laid them.

Could they possibly have been laid someone who is backed by a country who has not signed a treaty against their use, like the USA for instance?

Possibly the HRW could also see fit to condemn whoever it is throwing missiles and bombs at Lybia, from a safe distance of course.

But no that is only being done to save Lybian lives, right?

Like all the Afgan and Iranian lives that have been and are still being saved by similar actions.

The Lybian rebels must have made some pretty extravagant promises as to who will get cheap oil once they take over the country.

[Orac]

So we have 'human rights watch' has found some land mines and has made an assumption as to who laid them.

Could they possibly have been laid someone who is backed by a country who has not signed a treaty against their use, like the USA for instance?

Possibly the HRW could also see fit to condemn whoever it is throwing missiles and bombs at Lybia, from a safe distance of course.

But no that is only being done to save Lybian lives, right?

Like all the Afgan and Iranian lives that have been and are still being saved by similar actions.

The Lybian rebels must have made some pretty extravagant promises as to who will get cheap oil once they take over the country.

I can't see it being the USA to be fair as, although they haven't signed the UN Treaty, they are pretty close to it and have not been involved with landmines for some time so they claim:

The United States has not used antipersonnel mines since 1991, exported them since 1992, or produced them since 1997.

From: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/05/08/us-two-thirds-senate-back-landmine-ban

[Robby nz]

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

[Orac]

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

Found them - apparently they are saving a few for Korea

The US does stockpile a lot of landmines, however — approximately 10.4 million antipersonnel mines and 7.5 million antivehicle mines, the third largest landmine stockpile in the world after China and Russia, according to the IBCL. As of 2002, the stockpile had 1.56 million non-self-destructing landmines, including 1.16 million M14 and M16 antipersonnel mines (which are the ones for any future war in Korea) and about 403,000 Claymore mines. About half of those mines are stored in the continental US. The US military also keeps a substantial number of self-destructing, scatterable antipersonnel mines in South Korea.

From: http://www.globalissues.org/article/79/landmines

[geriatrickid]

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

Your suggestion that the USA has supplied the landmines or even planted the landmines belies your personal bias and a profound ignorance of the supply and sale of munitions to Libya. Let's just deal with the facts and not your overt blaming of the USA. Here are some facts to consider (and the sources are reputable);

Fact 1: Prior to 2004, Libya was subject to an arms embargo from the west. The principal supplier of armaments and ordinance was the former Soviet Union and former east bloc states.

Fact 2: The International Campaign to Ban Landmines (ICBL) which is a neutral non biased group reported as follows;

Libya is known to have imported mines from the former Soviet Union, including POMZ-2 and POMZ-2M antipersonnel fragmentation mines. Libya has not made available any information about possible destruction of those mines. In January 2002, Libyan officials told Landmine Monitor that possessing, using, or transferring explosives, including antipersonnel mines, is forbidden by and punishable under the Libyan penal code.

Fact 3: Libya planted mines during its 1977 war with Egypt and from 1977 to 1987 during its border conflict with Chad.

Fact 4: Libya had an ongoing dispute with Germany and the UK in respect to left over mines from WWII. Germany had refused to take responsibility for its Nazi era mines, while the UK was in lengthy negotiations. Libya had demanded that Germany and the UK pay for the demining.

Fact 5: Following the lifting of the arms embargo in 2004, Italy, Germany and the UK were according to the EU the largest arms suppliers to Libya.

The Guardian has a nice chart here. http://www.guardian....s-exports-libya The US was still considering whether or not to sell materiel that could have military use to Libya.

Fact 6: The US has no benefit of Libyan oil or gas. The key beneficiaries are primarily Italy, Germany, and the UK with the rest of Europe key markets.

Fact 7: Libya had repeatedly lied to the UN and international demining groups. In 2004 Libya publicly stated that it had no stockpile of anti personnel mines.

Now, in consideration of the aforementioned don't you feel somewhat foolish leveling your attack on the USA? If Gadaffi is the monster that he is, go and slam the Italians and Germans that were the principal European nations supporting his regime. The UK has dirty hands as well, but due to public scrutiny was kept from making as big a mistake as the Italians and Germans. If you notice, the two nations that kept quiet while Gadaffi was killing his own people were cowardly Germany and Italy. France has acted because it realizes that if the civil war continues their countries will get flooded with refugees and sarkozy does actually have some principles. italy is now cooperating with non Nato member France as it faces the same refugee issue. Germany doesn't care since it knows the refugees will go to Spain, France and Italy first. Canada agreed to participate as a favour to France, the UK and the USA. The rest of Europe is sitting back afraid of upsetting a major oil supplier to the EU. Once again, the UK, Canada and the USA get stuck saving Europe because of European political stupidity. The USA also owes Europe a favour for Afghanistan support. However, this is one dispute where the Continental Europeans should have been left to twist in the wind. The old axis allies of Germany and Italy should have cleaned up their own overflowing toilet and not expected the USA, UK and Canada to come wipe its collective fat posterior.

[bangkokeddy]

Fact 6: The US has no benefit of Libyan oil or gas. The key beneficiaries are primarily Italy, Germany, and the UK with the rest of Europe key markets.

it isnt just about Libya, its all connected and some proxy shit.

The monarchs in the Gulf states and their Suffi clerics wanna get rid of Gadaffi because his peoples revolution style is not only un-islamic to them but also a threat to their own ruler position as monarchs.

After the Arab league gave the okay for the no-fly zone Clinton was all excited and ready to fight. Its some old beef with Gadaffi but also a step to re-establish the friendship in the Gulf and with Saudi Arabia.

Its about oil and a navy base and making king Abdullah and his clerics happy.

[geriatrickid]

Fact 6: The US has no benefit of Libyan oil or gas. The key beneficiaries are primarily Italy, Germany, and the UK with the rest of Europe key markets.

it isnt just about Libya, its all connected and some proxy shit.

The monarchs in the Gulf states and their Suffi clerics wanna get rid of Gadaffi because his peoples revolution style is not only un-islamic to them but also a threat to their own ruler position as monarchs.

After the Arab league gave the okay for the no-fly zone Clinton was all excited and ready to fight. Its some old beef with Gadaffi but also a step to re-establish the friendship in the Gulf and with Saudi Arabia.

Its about oil and a navy base and making king Abdullah and his clerics happy.

You do realize that the French were and still are the ones at the lead on this, right? How you can tie it back to the USA when the US doesn't even want to be there?Yes, I can see that the USA has to help its friends in the region, but had the French and UK said no and had their not been UN support, there would have been no US involvement. The Russians and Chinese abstained from voting and they could have vetoed this action.

[flying]

Dont know about landmines but it looks like the US will be openly supplying weapons soon to the rebel forces....

Deja Vu

Anyone STILL believe it is or ever was to be just a no fly zone enforcement?

Supply of arms to rebels possible despite embargo

Edited March 30, 2011 by flying

[Robby nz]

Robby nz, on 2011-03-30 16:06:59, said:

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

geriatrickid,

Your suggestion that the USA has supplied the landmines or even planted the landmines belies your personal bias and a profound ignorance of the supply and sale of munitions to Libya. Let's just deal with the facts and not your overt blaming of the USA. Here are some facts to consider (and the sources are reputable);

I did not repeat your full qouta but note plenty of personal bias it that quote.

Perhaps to show your nutrality you could also list the US invasions of other countries and supply of weapons to other countries to be used against their citizens right down to the present day when they are standing well back throwing bombs and missiles into Libya.

I made no suggestion that the US either supplied or planted any mines in Libya.

I did however question why the US has what seems to be a massive stockpile of munitioms banned by a large number of countries including Libya, perhaps as a defender of the US you could answer that?

I also questioned the HRW announcement that the mines they found had been planted by Gadaffi.s forces when they stated that both sides had been in the area.

It seems strange to me that the HRW which apparantly has some of the mines in unexploded condition did not identify where (which country) they origionated from.

Even if they do not have " Made with pride and love in ................" writen on them they should be easily identifiable and this may give some clue as to who laid them.

[Naam]

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

the surplus of landmines is sold in army surplus stores

[manarak]

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

the surplus of landmines is sold in army surplus stores

correct use of the term "surplus"

but unless airdropped, mines are a defensive weapon.

the rebels want to topple the regime and get Khaddafi's skin - Khaddafi is under attack and he is defending, not surprisingly, with everything he has at his disposal.

furthermore, I am not convinced the rebels really are "fighters for democracy" - has this been verified? where does their funding come from? are there any foreigners with them?

I suppose our intelligence services did their homework on these people before we sent planes out to help them - would be nice to have some info though.

[Steely Dan]

Meanwhile the rebels overrun Libyan army stores and sell the chemical weapons they found there to guess who? It really makes you wonder what on earth we are doing intervening here. Better the despot you know.

http://www.debka.com/article/20811/

[geriatrickid]

Robby nz, on 2011-03-30 16:06:59, said:

Assuming the dates given are correct I wonder where the "Production" between 1992 and 1997 has gone?

There would also be the question of why continue, for five years, to produce the things if there was no intention to either use them or export them?

geriatrickid,

Your suggestion that the USA has supplied the landmines or even planted the landmines belies your personal bias and a profound ignorance of the supply and sale of munitions to Libya. Let's just deal with the facts and not your overt blaming of the USA. Here are some facts to consider (and the sources are reputable);

I did not repeat your full qouta but note plenty of personal bias it that quote.

Perhaps to show your nutrality you could also list the US invasions of other countries and supply of weapons to other countries to be used against their citizens right down to the present day when they are standing well back throwing bombs and missiles into Libya.

I made no suggestion that the US supplied or planted any mines in Libya.

I did however question why the US has what seems to be a massive stockpile of munitioms banned by a large number of countries including Libya, perhaps as a defender of the US you could answer that?

I also questioned the HRW announcement that the mines they found had been planted by Gadaffi.s forces when they stated that both sides had been in the area.

It seems strange to me that the HRW which apparantly has some of the mines in unexploded condition did not identify where (which country) they origionated from.

Even if they do not have " Made with pride and love in ................" writen on them they should be easily identifiable and this may give some clue as to who laid them.

Yes you certainly insinuated that the USA had supplied the mines

Could they possibly have been laid someone who is backed by a country who has not signed a treaty against their use, like the USA for instance?

The stockpile of landmine munitions the USA has is strictly controlled. As has been pointed out, there is old stock in South Korea and the USA. The USA may not be a signatory of the landmine ban but it is subject to a self imposed ban on the export of landmines. In plain English, the landmines would least likely have come from the USA.

The Libtan government has used landmines in the past. This cannot be contested. Why then, would you assume or blame the USA or anyone else except the Libyan government for the planting of landmines? Instead of bashing the USA, go bash Egypt and Brazil. You know why? Because those are the countries that provided the landmines to Libya in the new minefields tha the Libyan government had just planted;

By Angus MacSwan

BENGHAZI, Libya | Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:09am BST (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces have sown land mines in areas around the city of Ajdabiyah, adding a dangerous new element to the war on the eastern front, human rights and mine experts said on Thursday. The mines include Brazilian-made anti-personnel mines and Egyptian-made anti-tank mines. Two minefields were discovered by monitors in the days following last Saturday's retreat from Ajdabiyah by Gaddafi's troops and appear to be have been laid during their 10-day occupation of the crossroads town 150 km (90 miles) south of the rebel capital Benghazi.