Thailand Water Management System Will Require Years Of Investment: Dutch Expert

[Trickcyclist]

copy the LA system

[ResX]

Water management will require years of investment... And some common sense... Let's hope they get at least the investment lined up

Maybe NOT. Probably the infrastructures are already there. Just requires one final touch to make a complete Integrated Water Resources Management. I hope this is really the case for Thailand.

There is no infrastructure if you talk about water manegement on the scale needed we not talk about klongs from a few meter wide or deep but about making rivers run smootly deeping it out and keep them that way.

To make canals from 50 meter wide and at least 10 meter deep making room for overflow of rivers make dikes around those rivers and canals from at least 3 meter high

Or.... keep that 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that come in 7 days and discharge it downstream gradually for 365 days at the rate of 507cubic meter per second above the normal flow for Chao Phraya. At the average, the Chao Phraya discharge will become 2,707 cubic meter per second measured at its river mouth or 25% above the average flow. This should be the non flood scenario. If anybody gets hit then we know that the person is the aggressor. He or she should not build any permanent structure that close to the normal water level.

What does Thailand have so far? 1. Bhumibol dam= 4billion cubic meter flood control capacity (FCC), Sirkit dam=3billion cubic meter FCC. 3. Chao Phra dam= ~ 1billion cubic meter FCC. These make the sure capacity of 8billion cubic meter. We are looking for another 9billion cubic meter. Does Thailand have them? I don't know but I have some leads. Consider these statements that I have learned:

1. Thailand has at least 4 major dams

2. Besides major dams Thailand has 200++ dams

3. There are more than 3,000 dams in Thailand.

Assuming all these statements are valid then I can draw a conclusion that there are at least for major dams in Thailand, 200 medium size dam and close to 3,000 small dams.

No, I didn't include Klongs. There are not meant to deal with monsoon floods of this magnitude. Can Thailand rely on its medium to small dam to account for another 9billion cubic meter? Honesly, I don't know. But even if each medium size dams can hold at least 100 million cubic meter of flood waters, then it comes to 10 billion cubic meter. I would say at most two more major dam than can hold up to 7billion cubic meter of flood waters could do the job.

[cdnski12]

The main requirement in this age of computers, is to utilize the enormous computer weather predicition capability to determine water reservoir management practices. Dam owners/managers always want a full reservoir. Sometimes the Govt Managers must step in and order advance spilling to accommodate future rain or run off. It is a constant balancing procedure that the Thai Water Authority and Electric Generating Companies mis-calculated ... assuming thay can calculate?

[ResX]

The main requirement in this age of computers, is to utilize the enormous computer weather predicition capability to determine water reservoir management practices. Dam owners/managers always want a full reservoir. Sometimes the Govt Managers must step in and order advance spilling to accommodate future rain or run off. It is a constant balancing procedure that the Thai Water Authority and Electric Generating Companies mis-calculated ... assuming thay can calculate?

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

[rubl]

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

With an average 70 billion m³ in a year, we're talking about an average of 1.35 billion m³ a week. The 16 billion falling in a week mean an (average) 10-fold increase which needs to be gotten rid off. Having dedicated run-off / spill areas seem to make sense, more so than trying to speed up drainage towards the sea

[ResX]

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

With an average 70 billion m³ in a year, we're talking about an average of 1.35 billion m³ a week. The 16 billion falling in a week mean an (average) 10-fold increase which needs to be gotten rid off. Having dedicated run-off / spill areas seem to make sense, more so than trying to speed up drainage towards the sea

The facts that I provided for the Chao Pharaya could not be wrong by so much. I made my references to Thailand scholars. There are a lot of articles about the Chao Pharaya in the net. Now I can understand why.

Some articles to me are very impressive indeed. One of them was written by one of the ministers in charge. It seemed to me he understood well the problems about water resource utilization in Thailand.

Thailand has to have dedicated storage areas. It is cheaper and better option than to build up a big canal. Thailand can ease competing demands in water resources if it can store flood waters.

The good news is Thailand has a huge amount of water per capita. If I can recall it correctly it is about 3,000cubic meter per citizen. The major problem is water management inclusive water distribution.

Edited November 22, 2011 by ResX

[ResX]

"What is essential, however, is for the Kingdom to have a "clear rule" that governs the way various authorities talk with one another.

I supposed I came to this conclusion a few weeks before him.

"We try to make water [a] non-political issue in Holland.":

I 'm in full agreement with him with this one.

Edited November 22, 2011 by ResX

[MaxYakov]

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

With an average 70 billion m³ in a year, we're talking about an average of 1.35 billion m³ a week. The 16 billion falling in a week mean an (average) 10-fold increase which needs to be gotten rid off. Having dedicated run-off / spill areas seem to make sense, more so than trying to speed up drainage towards the sea

The facts that I provided for the Chao Pharaya could not be wrong by so much. I made my references to Thailand scholars. There are a lot of articles about the Chao Pharaya in the net. Now I can understand why.

Some articles to me are very impressive indeed. One of them was written by one of the ministers in charge. It seemed to me he understood well the problems about water resource utilization in Thailand.

Thailand has to have dedicated storage areas. It is cheaper and better option than to build up a big canal. Thailand can ease competing demands in water resources if it can store flood waters.

The good news is Thailand has a huge amount of water per capita. If I can recall it correctly it is about 3,000cubic meter per citizen. The major problem is water management inclusive water distribution.

From the 21 Nov 2001 Thai PBS English-language version of 'Thailand's Worst Flood' with Dr. Seree's two hydrographs. Measurement point is Nakomsawan C2? The first hydrograph's vertical scale is CM/sec (obscured). Second graph's vertical scale (must be) thousands of m³ Delta. This scale is also obscured (although the delta symbol is barely visible), but it's the only way the numbers make sense based on the CM/sec values of the first hydrograph.

Taking October 1st as an example, with the flow around 4.2 x 10³ CM/s, the day's volume (86.4 x 10³ sec/day) would be about 363 x 10⁶ m³ . This doesn't correlate to the vertical scale, it seems to me, unless it represents the delta (change of volume) from the previous day, and then only if the scale is in thousands of units (m³). Anyway, total daily volume can be imputed (as I did) from the average daily CM/s.

Maybe someone has a better idea how to interpret these two hydrographs?

Three comparison years: yellow = 2011, Green = 2006, Blue = 1995. Anyway, it's food for thought, because, as Dr. Seree pointed out, the peak volume was not as high as previous years, the total volume was higher.

[ResX]

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

With an average 70 billion m³ in a year, we're talking about an average of 1.35 billion m³ a week. The 16 billion falling in a week mean an (average) 10-fold increase which needs to be gotten rid off. Having dedicated run-off / spill areas seem to make sense, more so than trying to speed up drainage towards the sea

The facts that I provided for the Chao Pharaya could not be wrong by so much. I made my references to Thailand scholars. There are a lot of articles about the Chao Pharaya in the net. Now I can understand why.

Some articles to me are very impressive indeed. One of them was written by one of the ministers in charge. It seemed to me he understood well the problems about water resource utilization in Thailand.

Thailand has to have dedicated storage areas. It is cheaper and better option than to build up a big canal. Thailand can ease competing demands in water resources if it can store flood waters.

The good news is Thailand has a huge amount of water per capita. If I can recall it correctly it is about 3,000cubic meter per citizen. The major problem is water management inclusive water distribution.

From the 21 Nov 2001 Thai PBS English-language version of 'Thailand's Worst Flood' with Dr. Seree's two hydrographs. Measurement point is Nakomsawan C2? The first hydrograph's vertical scale is CM/sec (obscured). Second graph's vertical scale (must be) thousands of m³ Delta. This scale is also obscured (although the delta symbol is barely visible), but it's the only way the numbers make sense based on the CM/sec values of the first hydrograph.

Taking October 1st as an example, with the flow around 4.2 x 10³ CM/s, the day's volume (86.4 x 10³ sec/day) would be about 363 x 10⁶ m³ . This doesn't correlate to the vertical scale, it seems to me, unless it represents the delta (change of volume) from the previous day, and then only if the scale is in thousands of units (m³). Anyway, total daily volume can be imputed (as I did) from the average daily CM/s.

Maybe someone has a better idea how to interpret these two hydrographs?

Three comparison years: yellow = 2011, Green = 2006, Blue = 1995. Anyway, it's food for thought, because, as Dr. Seree pointed out, the peak volume was not as high as previous years, the total volume was higher.

I cannot see all the details. Based on what I can see, the first graph is in time domain. Flood water discharge versus time. The area under the curve will give cumulative volume for each case. The second graph is cumulative volume versus time. It is actually to represent area under the curve for graph 1 (to represent volume) as a function of time.

Obviously, that the 2011 cumulative flood volume is the highest among the three. See graph 2.

Note that this is only one of the catchments. I'm sure if overall catchment floods analysis is done daily peak volume could be well above 3billion cubic meter.

Edited November 22, 2011 by ResX

[Gonsalviz]

He's a sandbag marketing expert too?

I doubt you have to be an expert to say what he said.

[ResX]

Oh yes. They can be calculated. They can be anticipated. They can be held. The 16 billion cubic meter of flood waters that fall in 7 days should be within the calculated risk since its average recurrence interval for Chao Phraya catchment is about 1 in 50 years (2% probability). Note that its annual average flow is about 70 billion cubic meter.

With an average 70 billion m³ in a year, we're talking about an average of 1.35 billion m³ a week. The 16 billion falling in a week mean an (average) 10-fold increase which needs to be gotten rid off. Having dedicated run-off / spill areas seem to make sense, more so than trying to speed up drainage towards the sea

The facts that I provided for the Chao Pharaya could not be wrong by so much. I made my references to Thailand scholars. There are a lot of articles about the Chao Pharaya in the net. Now I can understand why.

Some articles to me are very impressive indeed. One of them was written by one of the ministers in charge. It seemed to me he understood well the problems about water resource utilization in Thailand.

Thailand has to have dedicated storage areas. It is cheaper and better option than to build up a big canal. Thailand can ease competing demands in water resources if it can store flood waters.

The good news is Thailand has a huge amount of water per capita. If I can recall it correctly it is about 3,000cubic meter per citizen. The major problem is water management inclusive water distribution.

From the 21 Nov 2001 Thai PBS English-language version of 'Thailand's Worst Flood' with Dr. Seree's two hydrographs. Measurement point is Nakomsawan C2? The first hydrograph's vertical scale is CM/sec (obscured). Second graph's vertical scale (must be) thousands of m³ Delta. This scale is also obscured (although the delta symbol is barely visible), but it's the only way the numbers make sense based on the CM/sec values of the first hydrograph.

Taking October 1st as an example, with the flow around 4.2 x 10³ CM/s, the day's volume (86.4 x 10³ sec/day) would be about 363 x 10⁶ m³ . This doesn't correlate to the vertical scale, it seems to me, unless it represents the delta (change of volume) from the previous day, and then only if the scale is in thousands of units (m³). Anyway, total daily volume can be imputed (as I did) from the average daily CM/s.

Maybe someone has a better idea how to interpret these two hydrographs?

Three comparison years: yellow = 2011, Green = 2006, Blue = 1995. Anyway, it's food for thought, because, as Dr. Seree pointed out, the peak volume was not as high as previous years, the total volume was higher.

One more thing is talking about flood control only 4-14 days rainfall density that counts. A sound flood control methodology puts this as the center of the entire flood control operations. If you can manage the flood during this period, the rest will be simpler.

[hellodolly]

Water management will require years of investment... And some common sense... Let's hope they get at least the investment lined up

Maybe NOT. Probably the infrastructures are already there. Just requires one final touch to make a complete Integrated Water Resources Management. I hope this is really the case for Thailand.

The final touch being tear down what they have and get some qualified people in to over see a proper system of water management.

They now have the money allocated but don't know what to do with it and they are not about to lose face over it so they will not call in experts. Hence no action.

I see where the Governor of Bangkok is gong ahead with plans to clean up existing water ways.

Of course he dosen't take his orders from Thaksin.