Court ruling not good news for Thai Democrat leaders

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE
Court ruling not good news for Democrat leaders
Attayuth Bootsripoom
THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- An inquest by the Criminal Court found on Tuesday that soldiers were responsible for the deaths of six people at the Pathum Wanaram Temple on May 19, 2010, during the political unrest. The finding has put the Democrat Party's Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thaugsuban, who were then prime minister and deputy prime minister in a difficult position.

On that day, the government's security forces carried out an operation to "reclaim public areas", with a focus on the Ratchaprasong business district, which had been seized by red-shirt protesters for over a month. A group of armed militants (often referred to as "men in black") were said to have put up a gunfight against the security forces moving into the area.

In the afternoon, the protest leaders announced an end to the anti-government rally, which had begun in mid-March that year. They surrendered to the authorities amid widespread sighs of relief. The security forces appeared to be in control of the area.

However, things did not go as expected. Many buildings in Bangkok, particularly those in the protest area, became targets of arson attacks. Fire engines could not reach the burning buildings as shots were fired at firefighters. Many protesters left the site and took refuge in the nearby Pathum Wanaram Temple.

Gunshots could be heard from that evening into the night. There were reports that people had been shot dead inside the temple. The next morning, it was found that six people were killed, including some medical volunteers.

The authorities then called a press conference about the reported discovery of several weapons inside the temple, which was described as a hiding place for armed militants. Later, some eyewitnesses said soldiers had fired gunshots from the elevated train tracks in front of the temple, but the authorities dismissed this. But, there were pictures showing soldiers on the elevated train tracks, and traces of shots having been fired from there.

The court on Tuesday ruled that five of the six victims were killed by soldiers from the Third Special Force Regiment stationed on the Skytrain tracks, and the last victim was killed by a soldier from the Second Infantry Battalion stationed on Rama I Road.

The court also found there was no evidence that armed militants were present on that day. No firearms were found at the scene, and no traces of gunpowder residue were found on the victims' hands. It appeared that soldiers fired at unarmed persons. This finding could lead to legal action against those responsible, who could be charged with a wrongful act leading to death.

In previous cases when courts found security forces to be responsible, there were gunfights with armed militants in the area. However, in the latest case, there was no evidence that armed militants were involved.

There will be more judicial proceedings involving these deaths at Wat Pathum. But those in power at the time, namely Abhisit and Suthep, will certainly be uneasy about the latest court finding.


-- The Nation 2013-08-08

[tomross46]

The finding has put the Democrat Party's Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thaugsuban, who were then prime minister and deputy prime minister in a difficult position.

So if this the case, than, Is former PM Thaksin guilty of the killings of thousands during the crack down on drugs, and the killing of hundreds of Muslim people in 2004?

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

[LuckyLew]

That is ok, Thaksin will be back soon, so these two can rent Thaksin house in Dubai

[NongKhaiKid]

I would think Abhisit and Suthep are used to bad news by now as they have a life membership to the DSI to start with

[klubex99]

Well we all knew that this news was going to be published before the debate on the amnesty bill. The court is totally controlled by Thaksin, and this is an extra bargaining chip to get support from 'the other side'.

Or is it merely a pure coincidence, even though myself and my wife were talking only last week that the PTP would need that extra bit of leverage.

Naaaa.... It's a coincidence innit?

Edited August 8, 2013 by klubex99

[Thaimung]

Klubex 99, you are so right!!!

[NCFC]

Well we all knew that this news was going to be published before the debate on the amnesty bill. The court is totally controlled by Thaksin, and this is an extra bargaining chip to get support from 'the other side'.

Or is it merely a pure coincidence, even though myself and my wife were talking only last week that the PTP would need that extra bit of leverage.

Naaaa.... It's a coincidence innit?

Is that 'court totally controlled by Thaksin' the same as 'court totally controlled by Thaksin's enemies' during the Rachada land case?

[jayboy]

The finding has put the Democrat Party's Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thaugsuban, who were then prime minister and deputy prime minister in a difficult position.

So if this the case, than, Is former PM Thaksin guilty of the killings of thousands during the crack down on drugs, and the killing of hundreds of Muslim people in 2004?

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Same predictable response.Usual suspects cannot bear to hear the truth about crimes committed by the previous government and immediately change the subject by invoking Thaksin.

One hopes in vain they might actual wish to deal with the subject but nothing on that but silence.

(The irony escapes them that the drugs war they refer to was fully endorsed by the unelected elites they kowtow to)

[philw]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

A group of soldiers fired into a temple and killed 6 unarmed people, including a medic attending to injured people.

An independent court has found them ( the soldiers, and by extension, their officers ) culpable and now it remains to be seen how the court system processes this decision.

Hopefully, there will be a prosecution.

It's rather good thing that a coroners court has arrived at a decision holding the RTA responsible for it's actions, would you not agree ???

That could be a first.

[GeorgeO]

If the inquest has sufficient proof to show that the people were killed by the soldiers, then we must assume that the bullets found in the victims have been forensically matched to weapons which are currently (and always have been) in the possession of these military units.

Without such clear evidence, it is difficult to understand how the criminal court can have drawn such a conclusion in this matter; however, there is no mention of such forensic evidence, despite its critical impact on this case.

So which is it, a conclusion drawn on the basis of forensic evidence, or one that conveniently helps to cast a cloud over those opposing the red shirts and the current government...?

[klubex99]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

A group of soldiers fired into a temple and killed 6 unarmed people, including a medic attending to injured people.

An independent court has found them ( the soldiers, and by extension, their officers ) culpable and now it remains to be seen how the court system processes this decision.

Hopefully, there will be a prosecution.

It's rather good thing that a coroners court has arrived at a decision holding the RTA responsible for it's actions, would you not agree ???

That could be a first.

You are missing the point. Or should I say, you are actually strengthening the point.

This bill exonerates mostly those who are in direct violation of crimes committed against supporters of Thaksin.

All these people will be forgiven their sins if they push the bill through, and of course this is the same bill that will also release Thaksin from his own penal obligation.

Independent court? ... The only 'independent court' that would be credit worthy would be one that exists 100% outside of Thailand, and beyond the manipulation of those who totally control Thailand... Do I really need to name names?

[Valentine]

The finding has put the Democrat Party's Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thaugsuban, who were then prime minister and deputy prime minister in a difficult position.

So if this the case, than, Is former PM Thaksin guilty of the killings of thousands during the crack down on drugs, and the killing of hundreds of Muslim people in 2004?

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Same predictable response.Usual suspects cannot bear to hear the truth about crimes committed by the previous government and immediately change the subject by invoking Thaksin.

One hopes in vain they might actual wish to deal with the subject but nothing on that but silence.

(The irony escapes them that the drugs war they refer to was fully endorsed by the unelected elites they kowtow to)

I think the majority of the population agreed with the drugs war. Does not make it right though, especially since not one high ranking drug lord ever got shot or arrested & quite possibly some of those killed were killed because of the fact they could finger the higher ups.

BTW the same predictable response comes from Red supporters when dirty deeds are exposed about the current administration & they immediately go back to what about when the Dems were in power. None of it makes it right. There is so much smoke & mirrors going on in this country that the truth is rarely if ever seen. It becomes twisted by whoever is in control at the time but the current controllers are extremely blatant in their corrupt policies, much more so than I have ever seen, even exceeding the buffet cabinet of the early 90s.

[SOTIRIOS]

......talk about 'rewriting history'.....again and again.....

[mikemac]

Same predictable response.Usual suspects cannot bear to hear the truth about crimes committed by the previous government and immediately change the subject by invoking Thaksin.

Wow ! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black !!!!!!!!

I also recall this Nation article saying the "reds" had weapons but now today's article says the "reds" were totally unarmed and the then government is guilty?

Unarmed my ass ! Had this act of terrorism happened in any other country it would not have lasted for more than a month. These paid terrorists (how low can you get ?) would have been blown away long before they had the chance to do as much damage as they did and the person running the current government would be hailed a hero. I am sure Abhisit did not instruct the army to slaughter innocent people in a temple, or anywhere for that matter, would not be surprised if the scumbags in black were somehow involved in that tragedy.

[Baerboxer]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

A group of soldiers fired into a temple and killed 6 unarmed people, including a medic attending to injured people.

An independent court has found them ( the soldiers, and by extension, their officers ) culpable and now it remains to be seen how the court system processes this decision.

Hopefully, there will be a prosecution.

It's rather good thing that a coroners court has arrived at a decision holding the RTA responsible for it's actions, would you not agree ???

That could be a first.

It's always very difficult for any court to make definite sound judgments regarding military actions. This court would appear to have done so and is even prepared to name the units involved. I haven't seen the evidence presented but it must have been considerable and more than circumstancial to allow such a definitive and detailed verdict.

Military personnel rarely face prosecution and punishment for such crimes - look at how many involved in copious atrocities in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos have ever been brought to trial or really punished even when found guilty. Nothing to do with justice - all to do with wanting an effective military.

Not really anything to do with Thaksin - If you believe he orchestrated, financed and controlled the riots, then yes it is everything to do with him. If you believe he instructed the red shirt leaders to renege on their offer once accepted by the government, and up the anti, for his own ends, then yes it has everything to do with him. If you believe he wasn't involved and is simply a fugitive convicted criminal who faces other outstanding criminal charges and just happens to be the brother of the current PM/DM and BoL of the FM, then I guess no, it doesn't have anything to do with him. But if you believe that, then you probably believe that Yingluck is the real PM and chose her own cabinet too; and that all these rumours of Thakin controlling the government by Skype and meetings in HK and Singapore are not true either.

[klubex99]

In ANY country outside Thailand, balistics would have concluded within days exactly which gun killed with person.

That's how it is guys.

If they have a bullet and a gun, it is easier than matching fingerprints.

Where are these matches? Isn't it a little strange how this cache of weapons that were snatched from the army and police by the (very peaceful and innocent) reds were returned within a day of that happening........ and they still could not find a bullet match.

Come on guys.... What sort of public inquiry was this? One that makes a decision based on NOTHING!!!!!

Everyone knows that this decision has been paid for to coincide with the amnesty bill debate.

If there is anyone on here that doubts it, then I am afraid to say that you have been living in Thailand too long... Time to go home and recuperate.

Edited August 8, 2013 by klubex99

[mikemac]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

Only a halfwit would make a comment like that, especially when you are talking about the mayhem in Bangkok in 2010 that Thaksin arranged, organized, orchestrated and financed.

Every rotten thing that happened in Bangkok during those terrorist operations, every life that was lost, every building that burned, every hospital that was held to ransom, had everything to do with that evil criminal.

[klubex99]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

Only a halfwit would make a comment like that, especially when you are talking about the mayhem in Bangkok in 2010 that Thaksin arranged, organized, orchestrated and financed.

Every rotten thing that happened in Bangkok during those terrorist operations, every life that was lost, every building that burned, every hospital that was held to ransom, had everything to do with that evil criminal.

It's not often I agree with you. But this time, you are right on the button.

I will add that the hospitals that were held to ransom were also forced to give free treatment not related to the riots.

So another form of looting, albeit, medical looting.

[jayboy]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

Only a halfwit would make a comment like that, especially when you are talking about the mayhem in Bangkok in 2010 that Thaksin arranged, organized, orchestrated and financed.

Every rotten thing that happened in Bangkok during those terrorist operations, every life that was lost, every building that burned, every hospital that was held to ransom, had everything to do with that evil criminal.

Another example, albeit a crass and singularly unreflective one, of a usual suspect seeking to divert attention from the army's murder of unarmed civilians in Wat Pathum where some of the victims had no political affiliation at all.Even accepting hypothetically the Thaksin is the root of all evil propaganda line, it is quite irrelevant to this particular piece of army criminality and the responsibility of Abhisit's government that presided over it.

[mikemac]

You're pissing in the wind jayboy. Thaksin and Abhisit are like chalk and cheese. Thaksin attacked Bangkok, Abhisit defended it and gave it back to the people.

If the tables were turned you and all the rest of the redshirt / Thaksin fan club would be hailing Thaksin a hero.

All this talk from your corner regarding Ahisit is just your pathetic attempt to divert attention away from the fact that Thaksin's little sister and her gang of ice-cream lickers are bringing the country to it's knees. Don't bother. It's not working.

[jayboy]

You're pissing in the wind jayboy. Thaksin and Abhisit are like chalk and cheese. Thaksin attacked Bangkok, Abhisit defended it and gave it back to the people.

If the tables were turned you and all the rest of the redshirt / Thaksin fan club would be hailing Thaksin a hero.

All this talk from your corner regarding Ahisit is just your pathetic attempt to divert attention away from the fact that Thaksin's little sister and her gang of ice-cream lickers are bringing the country to it's knees. Don't bother. It's not working.

But it was the courts that concluded the army murdered unarmed civilians at Wat Pathum.Looking at the broader context it is fatuous to look at the redshirt movement's activities in isolation.

Not that is relevant to this thread but briefly responding to your other comment, the government headed by Khun Yingluck and despite the normal mid term dip is still well ahead of Abhisit's Democrats.

By all means froth away about Thaksin but I'm not sure its helpful in trying to understand the full picture.The criminal military coup, the fascist PAD's contempt for the law, the feudal/military complex's contempt for electoral democracy - all need to be considered.

[Robby nz]

Well the court has spoken so there be it.

However as has already been stated it should not have been to difficult to match up the weapons that actually fired the shots, not only from any bullets recovered but from the cartridge cases we know were recovered.

Every weapon leaves a distinct firing pin and other marks on a cartridge case and the weapons in the hands of the two units mentioned should be easy to trace.

Each weapon is numbered and this number is normally recorded as issued to each soldier so the actual one who fired the shots can be traced.

I also noted from a previous topic on the subject that the evidence given to the court by the military was discounted (ignored) because it differed from person to person.

Without knowing just who gave that evidence or what that evidence was it is difficult to say why.

However it would seem there can be different interpretations of why evidence would differ from witness to witness.

It could be that it shows there was no collusion between witnesses who saw things from different places, and that they were giving their own eye witness accounts rather than following orders as to what they should say.

The court says there were no armed reds in the temple, fair enough, but it does not appear to say there were no men in black in a position to shoot into the temple.

At the time and since there have been photos and videos of men in black who were in a position to fire the shots that killed those in the temple.

There was an account some time back from an officer that said he and his men chased men in black away from a position where they could have shot into the temple, this was accompanied by a photo.

However as I said at the start the court has spoken and it is now up to the DSI to come up with evidence to charge the Dem leaders with premeditated murder........again.

[jayboy]

The court says there were no armed reds in the temple, fair enough, but it does not appear to say there were no men in black in a position to shoot into the temple.

At the time and since there have been photos and videos of men in black who were in a position to fire the shots that killed those in the temple.

There was an account some time back from an officer that said he and his men chased men in black away from a position where they could have shot into the temple, this was accompanied by a photo.

Sometimes the usual suspects are beyond parody.This fellow appears to be suggesting the MIB (the court having concluded there was no evidence of them) fired on unarmed civilians in the temple.

Pointless to discuss with this level of inanity.

[OzMick]

The court says there were no armed reds in the temple, fair enough, but it does not appear to say there were no men in black in a position to shoot into the temple.

At the time and since there have been photos and videos of men in black who were in a position to fire the shots that killed those in the temple.

There was an account some time back from an officer that said he and his men chased men in black away from a position where they could have shot into the temple, this was accompanied by a photo.

Sometimes the usual suspects are beyond parody.This fellow appears to be suggesting the MIB (the court having concluded there was no evidence of them) fired on unarmed civilians in the temple.

Pointless to discuss with this level of inanity.

"The court concluded" or "the court was presented with" ?

The court's decision is predicated by the evidence presented to it by the DSI, who, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, have never acknowledged ANY MIB, at least under this government.

[klubex99]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

Only a halfwit would make a comment like that, especially when you are talking about the mayhem in Bangkok in 2010 that Thaksin arranged, organized, orchestrated and financed.

Every rotten thing that happened in Bangkok during those terrorist operations, every life that was lost, every building that burned, every hospital that was held to ransom, had everything to do with that evil criminal.

Another example, albeit a crass and singularly unreflective one, of a usual suspect seeking to divert attention from the army's murder of unarmed civilians in Wat Pathum where some of the victims had no political affiliation at all.Even accepting hypothetically the Thaksin is the root of all evil propaganda line, it is quite irrelevant to this particular piece of army criminality and the responsibility of Abhisit's government that presided over it.

You paint such an accurate picture of such events... You were obviously there, or members of your family who never lie were there.

What was it like in the temple that day?

Did soldiers just walk in like Rambo and mo people down that had nothing to do with the RIOTS??

Of course not a single person shot guns at the soldiers did they???

In any country in the world, even in first world countries... you shoot at soldiers and they shoot back... it's called 'rules of engagement'.

Maybe you think that Thailand is different. Many soldiers already handed over their weapons to reds, so as far as anyone was concerned, they were armed to the teeth.

Please explain what happened that day..... Maybe this certain batch of soldiers were instructed to walk into temples and open fire on as many innocent people as possible. Yeah.... that is what happened, they were ordered to do it, even if not provoked.

Man..... your version of events is a product of having your Thai family so far up Thaksin's ares, it is untrue.

Well, please spare us.... we are educated in this forum. Save it for the karaoke bar.

[MrSlatersParrot]

Read all about it

http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNM05UYzRORFF6TWc9PQ==&sectionid=TURVd01BPT0=

[klubex99]

Read all about it

http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNM05UYzRORFF6TWc9PQ==&sectionid=TURVd01BPT0=

Lol.... more crap from the courts.

Has anyone with any intelligence sucked this up?

This is a 95% Buddhist country. If soldiers just took it upon themselves to camp in front of a temple full of women and children, with police filming it, then indiscriminately fire shots at people inside killing 6 including medical personnel want their heads examined.

It would be like soldiers in the UK firing into a primary school full of kids and mothers and hoping to get away with it. It is stupidity beyond imagination.

If such a calous act had taken place without any provocation, would the soldiers not have been rounded up immediately after knowing how horrendous this would be perceived?

Come on...

Let's get real. No..... The courts are not real, the courts read out decisions that they have been told/paid to.

TIT... never forget that.

[khunken]

The court says there were no armed reds in the temple, fair enough, but it does not appear to say there were no men in black in a position to shoot into the temple.

At the time and since there have been photos and videos of men in black who were in a position to fire the shots that killed those in the temple.

There was an account some time back from an officer that said he and his men chased men in black away from a position where they could have shot into the temple, this was accompanied by a photo.

Sometimes the usual suspects are beyond parody.This fellow appears to be suggesting the MIB (the court having concluded there was no evidence of them) fired on unarmed civilians in the temple.

Pointless to discuss with this level of inanity.

"The court concluded" or "the court was presented with" ?

The court's decision is predicated by the evidence presented to it by the DSI, who, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, have never acknowledged ANY MIB, at least under this government.

Exactly. The court can only rule on evidence presented to it. Given the lack of any real investigation by the corrupt DSI and their instructions to nail Abhisit & Suthep it's not surprising that the court made the ruling that it did.

I don't think this makes any difference to what has already been handed down by the court. With the army excused from any prosecution it is so easy to blame them (possibly correctly) which, by inference, blames A & S. I wonder how much effort the army put into defending itself knowing well that they had no fear of any punishment.

[philw]

"......................This is a 95% Buddhist country. If soldiers just took it upon themselves to camp in front of a temple full of women and children, with police filming it, then indiscriminately fire shots at people inside killing 6 including medical personnel want their heads examined..................."

Quote from klubex99, #28.

You are of course right, they do indeed need their "heads examined" because that is more or less exactly what they did.

Not only do the soldiers and officers concerned need their "heads examined" , in my opinion they, and their officers, need to be brought to justice in a civilian court and tried for murder.

[OzMick]

"......................This is a 95% Buddhist country. If soldiers just took it upon themselves to camp in front of a temple full of women and children, with police filming it, then indiscriminately fire shots at people inside killing 6 including medical personnel want their heads examined..................."

Quote from klubex99, #28.

You are of course right, they do indeed need their "heads examined" because that is more or less exactly what they did.

Not only do the soldiers and officers concerned need their "heads examined" , in my opinion they, and their officers, need to be brought to justice in a civilian court and tried for murder.

The old "He must be a homicidal maniac because he wears a green uniform" argument.