Poles remember Battle of Warsaw victory over Red Army

[webfact]

Poles remember Battle of Warsaw victory over Red Army

 

 

WARSAW: -- On the 96th anniversary of the Battle of Warsaw, Poles donned 1920s military uniform to re-enact a key moment from their past.

 

Also, known as the Miracle at the Vistula, the Poles led by Józef Piłsudski defeated the advancing Red Army on August 15 in 1920.

 

The event is celebrated as part of Army Day, and is considered a great victory for Poland over Russia.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-08-15

[Norvid]

This war stopped Soviets from advancing to the west. Bolsheviks with their international socialism agenda developed by Lenin and Trotsky thought, that they will take the west  under their control and make them pay for the war in the first place. They wanted to unite European continent under their -Moskow dictatorship of communism.

Similar war against the Ottoman Empire was fought in 1683 Siege of Vienna with Polish king Jan III Sobieski comending army.  http://www.historytoday.com/walter-leitsch/1683-siege-vienna

[Norvid]

Here you will see tovarisch commissar Trotsky - Soviet Jew hero.

 

[craigt3365]

Sadly, the Poles didn't fare so well in 1939.  Memories are long, no wonder they don't like Russia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland#Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
 

Quote

 

In October 1939, Molotov reported to the Supreme Soviet that the Soviets had suffered 737 deaths and 1,862 casualties during the campaign, although Polish specialists claim up to 3,000 deaths and 8,000–10,000 wounded.^[1] On the Polish side, 3,000–7,000 soldiers died fighting the Red Army, with 230,000–450,000 taken prisoner.^[4] The Soviets often failed to honour the terms of surrender. In some cases, they promised Polish soldiers their freedom and then arrested them when they laid down their arms.^[1]

................

In August 2009, on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion, the authoritative Polish Institute of National Remembrance announced that its researchers reduced the estimate of the number of people deported to Siberia from one million to 320,000, and estimated that 150,000 Polish citizens perished under Soviet rule during the war.^[113]

 

 

[Enoon]

Congratulations if you can sort out the "Good Guys" in the conflict that arose out of the mess in Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Central Powers in 1918:

Polish–Soviet War in 1919

Polish–Soviet War in 1920

 

 

Everybody loves "Brave Poland" but don't forget that when the Nazis marched into Czechoslovakia, so did the Poles:

Annexations by Poland in 1938

Which had their origins in:

Poland-Czechoslovakia war 1919

 

Sooner or later, whoever you are, you get to be the "Bad Guy".

 

It's History, not "Hollywoodski".

[ilostmypassword]

13 hours ago, Norvid said:

Here you will see tovarisch commissar Trotsky - Soviet Jew hero.

 

Actually, Trotsky was assassinated at the command of Stalin, who, like you, was an anti-semite.

[craigt3365]

8 hours ago, Enoon said:

Congratulations if you can sort out the "Good Guys" in the conflict that arose out of the mess in Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Central Powers in 1918:

Polish–Soviet War in 1919

Polish–Soviet War in 1920

 

 

Everybody loves "Brave Poland" but don't forget that when the Nazis marched into Czechoslovakia, so did the Poles:

Annexations by Poland in 1938

Which had their origins in:

Poland-Czechoslovakia war 1919

 

Sooner or later, whoever you are, you get to be the "Bad Guy".

 

It's History, not "Hollywoodski".

What I read is a conflict created out of the mess of WW1.  Which neither Poland nor Czechoslovakia started.  Drawing of borders by outsiders is never a good thing.  Conflicts are all over the world due to this.  Just saw this in Uzbekistan where Tajikistan wants some territory back that was use to be theirs before the Soviet occupation.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 15/8/2559 at 10:37 AM, craigt3365 said:

Sadly, the Poles didn't fare so well in 1939.  Memories are long, no wonder they don't like Russia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland#Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
 

 

Difficult for Poland to forget these memories when it wasn't too long ago when Russia entered Poland by force, and totally dominated this country for 45 years after the war. Unlike the Russians, Poland didn't ever want Communism, nor needed it. There is an old Polish Expression about Communism in which they say "Poles are like the Radish". "As they are only Red on the outside". 

 

Part of the reason why the Poles did not do so well in 1939 was because of the Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact  Poland signed with Russia and was in force until 1945. Registered with the League of Nations both sides agreed to renounce violence towards each other and to resolve there problems through negotiations. Also to forgo any armed conflict or alliances against each other. 

 

So with the rise of power in Germany and a constant serious threat, and Poland thinking their Eastern Borders were protected by Russia, or at least not at risk, they moved most of their troops to the Western Border with Germany. Little did Poland know then that a week before they were attacked by Germany that Russia had signed a secret pact with Germany to annex Poland and share it 50/50. Which of course violated there treaty with Poland. 

 

Of course the Germans did not attack Poland from the Western Border but instead at the North East City of Danzig (now called Gdansk). By the time the Poles realized what was going on, and tried to move their army back from the Western Front to the Eastern Front, their army became sitting ducks for the Luftwaffe.

 

Russia did not only not honor there treaty with Poland, nor assist Poland in any way with the German Invasion, they joined the Germans and invaded Poland 2 weeks after the Germans to claim their piece of the prize. This Russian Invasion also ended hostilities between Russian and Japan, where Russia did not declare war on Japan until the last few days of fighting. So who's side was Russia on anyway?

 

Perhaps the biggest mistake the States made when they entered the war was to target Germany ahead of the Japanese.  General MacArthur wanted to go for the Japanese first and before they became entrenched in these other places but got out voted by higher officials. After all, it was the Japanese who attacked them first, if you don't count a few ships headed to England. .

 

They still could have helped the UK by securing there shipping lanes to provide a steady supply of goods and beefed up their islands defenses against bomb attacks. In this way they could let the Germans and Russian slug it out in the East and by wars end neither one would hold any power left to negotiate anything. 

[craigt3365]

Very interesting post.  I was in Poland (and Czech) a few years ago.  Visited some museums about this dark part of their history.  Absolute sick what the Russians did to them.  Same is true with what they did to the Baltic countries.  Incredible.  And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

Quote

 

The Katyn massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katyńska, mord katyński, "Katyń crime"; Russian: Катынский расстрел Katynskij rasstrel, "Katyn shooting") was a series of mass executions of Polish nationals carried out by the NKVD ("People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs", a Soviet secret police organisation) in April and May 1940. Though the killings took place at several different locations, the massacre is named after the Katyn Forest, where some of the mass graves were first discovered.

 

The massacre was prompted by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to execute all captive members of the Polish officer corps, dated 5 March 1940, approved by the Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, including its leader, Joseph Stalin. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.^[1] The victims were executed in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkiv prisons, and elsewhere. Of the total killed, about 8,000 were officers imprisoned during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, another 6,000 were police officers, and the rest were arrested Polish intelligentsia that the Soviets deemed to be "intelligence agents, gendarmes, landowners, saboteurs, factory owners, lawyers, officials, and priests".^[1]

 

 

We'd rented a car and were driving around Poland for a few weeks.  Stopped by this memorial during out visit.

[GOLDBUGGY]

18 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Very interesting post.  I was in Poland (and Czech) a few years ago.  Visited some museums about this dark part of their history.  Absolute sick what the Russians did to them.  Same is true with what they did to the Baltic countries.  Incredible.  And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

 

We'd rented a car and were driving around Poland for a few weeks.  Stopped by this memorial during out visit.

While you were in Poland you may have visited the Malbork Medieval Castle in Malbork built by the Teutonic Knights, which is the largest castle in the world by surface area.

 

This place was totally destroyed in World War II but not by the Germans. In fact Hitler used this castle in the 1930's as an annual pilgrimages for the Nazi Hitler Youth and League of German Girls, that he would send there often. It became the Blueprint of Castles for the Third Reich. There is no way they would destroy this. 

 

This castle was destroyed by the Red Army during their invasion of Poland and against a retreating German Army. The Red Army caused more destruction in Poland then the Germans did, other than Warsaw done by the Nazis, and in retaliation for the Warsaw Uprising. This of course is including Rape. 

 

A Mystery still surrounds Marlbork today as at the time of the Red Army Invasion there was still over 4,000 Civilians living there. They soon all disappeared. But in 1996 they started to discover Mass Graves their and after further investigation they have discovered 2,417 bodies. Oddly enough mostly women. As it stands today there are officially 1,840 people still missing. Although most of the residence their at that time were of German Ancestry. 

 

Russia has done a lot of damage and injury to the Polish People since and during the Second World War so it is no wonder why they are not liked or trusted in Poland. Even today Polish People have fears of another Russian Invasion and why joining NATO was so important to them. Still over 50% of the Polish Treasuries taken out of Poland have never been recovered, relocated, or given back to Poland. 

 

I am not Polish, but I did live in Poland for about 10 years and sort of got the feel for this place. 

[ilostmypassword]

On the other hand there is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/14/academics-defend-historian-over-polish-jew-killings-claims

[Pakboong]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Very interesting post.  I was in Poland (and Czech) a few years ago.  Visited some museums about this dark part of their history.  Absolute sick what the Russians did to them.  Same is true with what they did to the Baltic countries.  Incredible.  And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

 

We'd rented a car and were driving around Poland for a few weeks.  Stopped by this memorial during out visit.

The Katyn forest massacre was blamed on the Germans until the wall came down and the Soviet archives were made available to all in the early 90s. Most if not all of the Nurnberg defendants had this massacre listed in their charges.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Very interesting post.  I was in Poland (and Czech) a few years ago.  Visited some museums about this dark part of their history.  Absolute sick what the Russians did to them.  Same is true with what they did to the Baltic countries.  Incredible.  And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

 

We'd rented a car and were driving around Poland for a few weeks.  Stopped by this memorial during out visit.

"Absolute sick what the Russians did to them. "

Yes it is.  But as awful as the Russians were, they were not in the same league as the Germans:

"The Nazi occupation of Poland was among the most brutal of the war, resulting in more than three million gentile deaths and the deaths of about three million Polish Jews. The six million Jewish, Roman Catholic and Orthodox Poles represented nearly 17 percent of the country's population.^[41] Poles were one of Hitler's first extermination targets, as he outlined in an August 22, 1939 speech to Wehrmacht commanders before the invasion"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles

"And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia! "

Germany is the leading member of the EU.  The Poles are not "leaning towards the EU" they are actually in it for economic reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it's in despite of Polish history as much as it is because of it.

 

[craigt3365]

Yes, some terrible atrocities during those wars.  I guess I pick on Russia a bit as they are still invading other countries and occupying their territory, while Germany is not.  Huge difference.  Germany's integrated into the world much better than Russia has.  But, this is off topic.  Sorry.

 

I did not make it to Malbork.  It was in the fall and getting cold, so we focused on the southern part of Poland.  Beautiful country.

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Difficult for Poland to forget these memories when it wasn't too long ago when Russia entered Poland by force, and totally dominated this country for 45 years after the war. Unlike the Russians, Poland didn't ever want Communism, nor needed it. There is an old Polish Expression about Communism in which they say "Poles are like the Radish". "As they are only Red on the outside". 

 

Part of the reason why the Poles did not do so well in 1939 was because of the Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact  Poland signed with Russia and was in force until 1945. Registered with the League of Nations both sides agreed to renounce violence towards each other and to resolve there problems through negotiations. Also to forgo any armed conflict or alliances against each other. 

 

So with the rise of power in Germany and a constant serious threat, and Poland thinking their Eastern Borders were protected by Russia, or at least not at risk, they moved most of their troops to the Western Border with Germany. Little did Poland know then that a week before they were attacked by Germany that Russia had signed a secret pact with Germany to annex Poland and share it 50/50. Which of course violated there treaty with Poland. 

 

Of course the Germans did not attack Poland from the Western Border but instead at the North East City of Danzig (now called Gdansk). By the time the Poles realized what was going on, and tried to move their army back from the Western Front to the Eastern Front, their army became sitting ducks for the Luftwaffe.

 

Russia did not only not honor there treaty with Poland, nor assist Poland in any way with the German Invasion, they joined the Germans and invaded Poland 2 weeks after the Germans to claim their piece of the prize. This Russian Invasion also ended hostilities between Russian and Japan, where Russia did not declare war on Japan until the last few days of fighting. So who's side was Russia on anyway?

 

Perhaps the biggest mistake the States made when they entered the war was to target Germany ahead of the Japanese.  General MacArthur wanted to go for the Japanese first and before they became entrenched in these other places but got out voted by higher officials. After all, it was the Japanese who attacked them first, if you don't count a few ships headed to England. .

 

They still could have helped the UK by securing there shipping lanes to provide a steady supply of goods and beefed up their islands defenses against bomb attacks. In this way they could let the Germans and Russian slug it out in the East and by wars end neither one would hold any power left to negotiate anything. 

The last paragraph nonsense above, which is in reality, an historical accommodation with Nazism, was a policy which was thoroughly opposed by Churchill at the time.

[SheungWan]

18 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, Trotsky was assassinated at the command of Stalin, who, like you, was an anti-semite.

 

More importantly, the conspiracy theory linkage of Communist and J

On 15/08/2016 at 3:11 AM, Norvid said:

Here you will see tovarisch commissar Trotsky - Soviet Jew hero.

 

 

'Communist-Jew' obsessions are pure dog-whistle politics of latter-day fascists. What they won't say too much about is that they historically support the Nazi side, not least in the WWII uprising of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Edited August 16, 2016 by SheungWan

[retarius]

On August 15, 2016 at 10:37 AM, craigt3365 said:

Sadly, the Poles didn't fare so well in 1939.  Memories are long, no wonder they don't like Russia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland#Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
 

 

Probably about time to get over it. We buy Japanese and German cars these days.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, retarius said:

Probably about time to get over it. We buy Japanese and German cars these days.

I drove this car when we were there.  Made in Czech, but owned by VW.  Great car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_Auto

Edited August 16, 2016 by craigt3365

[thaihome]

8 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

...

 

Perhaps the biggest mistake the States made when they entered the war was to target Germany ahead of the Japanese.  General MacArthur wanted to go for the Japanese first and before they became entrenched in these other places but got out voted by higher officials. After all, it was the Japanese who attacked them first, if you don't count a few ships headed to England. .

 

They still could have helped the UK by securing there shipping lanes to provide a steady supply of goods and beefed up their islands defenses against bomb attacks. In this way they could let the Germans and Russian slug it out in the East and by wars end neither one would hold any power left to negotiate anything. 

 

The biggest mistake of the war was Hitler declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor. This gave the US reason to go after Germany whose industrial base was far more a threat then the Japanese ever were. Japan never stood a chance and their entire strategy was based on the US giving get up in the first 6 months, after that even they knew they stood no chance. Germany could have won if the the US had stayed out of the war for a year or more. German war production was amazing and continued to increase throughout dispite the bombing.  The US aid to both UK and Russia would have been curtailed due to the neutrality act. It would have been very close.

TH 

[GOLDBUGGY]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The last paragraph nonsense above, which is in reality, an historical accommodation with Nazism, was a policy which was thoroughly opposed by Churchill at the time.

It was not Winston Churchill's decision to make or up to him.

 

It was American Troops entering the war and up to the President of the United States at that time, Franklin D Roosevelt, to decide if they should enter and who they should go after first. Although the attack from Japan did speed up this process. 

 

Keep in mind it was also an American, Dwight D Eisenhower, who was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, and who General MacArthur tried to convince to go after Japan first.This is not nonsense but in actuality a fact. Whether Eisenhower made the correct decision, or if MacArthur was correct in what he wanted to do instead, is up for Debate.

 

It is interesting to note that this Secret Pact Russia made with Germany, and only 1 week before Germany attacked Poland and the official start of this war, was to divide up Europe and split this in half between them. It is interesting to note because when this war ended, this is exactly what Russia got, even though their allied partner, Germany, lost the war.

 

What makes this more interesting is that at wars end Russia was not the greatest power. They also did not have the knowledge to make the Atomic Bomb. But yet Russia got everything they demanded and the same deal they made with Germany and before the war. Churchill's name was mentioned. But what was not mention was a famous quote from him in which he says his greatest political regret was to stand back and allow this to happen.       

[thaihome]

6 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

It was not Winston Churchill's decision to make or up to him.

 

It was American Troops entering the war and up to the President of the United States at that time, Franklin D Roosevelt, to decide if they should enter and who they should go after first. Although the attack from Japan did speed up this process. 

 

Keep in mind it was also an American, Dwight D Eisenhower, who was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, and who General MacArthur tried to convince to go after Japan first.This is not nonsense but in actuality a fact. Whether Eisenhower made the correct decision, or if MacArthur was correct in what he wanted to do instead, is up for Debate.

 

It is interesting to note that this Secret Pact Russia made with Germany, and only 1 week before Germany attacked Poland and the official start of this war, was to divide up Europe and split this in half between them. It is interesting to note because when this war ended, this is exactly what Russia got, even though their allied partner, Germany, lost the war.

 

What makes this more interesting is that at wars end Russia was not the greatest power. They also did not have the knowledge to make the Atomic Bomb. But yet Russia got everything they demanded and the same deal they made with Germany and before the war. Churchill's name was mentioned. But what was not mention was a famous quote from him in which he says his greatest political regret was to stand back and allow this to happen.       

 

Actually the first US action in the war (other then north Atlantic anti sub actions) was in the Pacific in Aug 1942 at Guadalcanal.  US troops did not engage the Germans until landings in North Africa in November that same year.

 

The main focus was indeed on Germany, but the Japanese were nowhere near ignored and by mid 1945 when Germany surrendered,  there was nothing left to do by then  but invade the home islands. I'm not convinced the pacific war would have gone much faster even with more focus purely due to logistics in getting the material to the fronts.  In the meantime, without the western European front opening in 1944, the Germans might have been able to overwhelm the Russians or least drive them in to Siberia.  With the Russians out of the way,  it would have been much more difficult and maybe impossible for the western Allies to beat the Germans in Western Europe.  The war in Europe was much closer, and during 1941-2 in serious doubt, then most people think.

 

Stalin certainly took advantage of the Allies victory in Europe to push communism into Eastern Europe,  but nobody, including Churchill, was willing to go straight into a war with Russia that Stalin would have no problem with. Patton was willing, but it would not haver been approved by Congress unless Stalin seriously provoked it and he was smart enough not to do so.  Hindsight about Eastern Europe does not take into consideration what was actually going on politically in both the US and the UK at the time. People were not going to fight another war over Poland.   

TH

[khundon]

If the crazy Putin gets his way, the Poles could soon be reliving that battle in real time.

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

"Absolute sick what the Russians did to them. "

Yes it is.  But as awful as the Russians were, they were not in the same league as the Germans:

"The Nazi occupation of Poland was among the most brutal of the war, resulting in more than three million gentile deaths and the deaths of about three million Polish Jews. The six million Jewish, Roman Catholic and Orthodox Poles represented nearly 17 percent of the country's population.^[41] Poles were one of Hitler's first extermination targets, as he outlined in an August 22, 1939 speech to Wehrmacht commanders before the invasion"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles

"And people wonder why they are leaning towards the EU and not Russia! "

Germany is the leading member of the EU.  The Poles are not "leaning towards the EU" they are actually in it for economic reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it's in despite of Polish history as much as it is because of it.

 

I don't think anyone is making light to what the Nazis did in Poland during WW II. But this Post was not about what the Nazis did but rather the battle the Poles had over the Red Army, which is Russia. If the Nazis were the topic then you would have to mention "Operation Barbarossa" in which over 5 Million People died in the first 5 months, and a total of over 26 million for the total battle of Russia. That is far more than the total casualties of this war from everyone else combined, including Poland. 

 

To my knowledge the Polish People don't exactly love the Germans too much for what they did either, but they do seem more forgiving to them. Perhaps because Germany said they were sorry, and Russia didn't, and also that Germany did not totally dominate them for 45 years and quite recently. There are still plenty of Poles who are still living and remember the life under the Communist Rule, but not many around who remember the Invasion by Germany. 

 

Poland leaning towards the EU has nothing to do with past or present wars. Poland joining the EU in 2004 has to do with economical agreements and not military agreements. Poland joining NATO in 1999 has everything to do with Military Agreements and why Russia was strongly opposed to this.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

5 hours ago, retarius said:

Probably about time to get over it. We buy Japanese and German cars these days.

I own a Ford. The guy who made it possible through Mass Production where even the average guy could afford to own a car. That is, Him and the Bank. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

5 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

I drove this car when we were there.  Made in Czech, but owned by VW.  Great car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_Auto

Had you been in Poland in the early 1990's you wouldn't have been able to do that. All that you could get then was the favorite Polish Fiat, only from paying cash first and then on special order for the Polish Factory, and the Russian Car Lada, which then was a piece of junk and you had to be an expert in repairing cars, and finding parts, to keep it on the road. 

 

Back in the 1990's almost all Polish People did not own cars. Only the rich and taxi cab drivers could. But public transportation was plentiful and cheap. I enjoyed travel this way. Also one of the few that could afford to buy a car and have the road to myself. Or shared with a Horse Drawn Cart.   

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, thaihome said:

 

The biggest mistake of the war was Hitler declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor. This gave the US reason to go after Germany whose industrial base was far more a threat then the Japanese ever were. Japan never stood a chance and their entire strategy was based on the US giving get up in the first 6 months, after that even they knew they stood no chance. Germany could have won if the the US had stayed out of the war for a year or more. German war production was amazing and continued to increase throughout dispite the bombing.  The US aid to both UK and Russia would have been curtailed due to the neutrality act. It would have been very close.

TH 

Sorry to disagree but this was not a mistake Hitler made. Germany had a Military Alliance with Japan. When the States Declared War on Japan, they in essence declared war on Germany to. So to honor this alliance Germany had no choice but to declare war back on the United States as well. If memory serves me correctly, it was the only time Germany Declared War on anyone before they attacked.

 

In my personal view, the biggest mistake Hitler made during this war was to attack Russia and start a war on 2 fronts at the same time. Even his own Highest Ranking Generals disagreed with Hitler, but Hitler was Hitler. The Millions of well trained troops and armored vehicles he moved up to the Easter Front could have been left behind on the Western one.

 

Could Germany have won the war without the US involvement? Or even with the US Involvement and having Russia as an Allie instead of an Enemy? That to me sounds like a good friendly debate over plenty of beers and a long night as there are many reason for and against this possibility. What isn't debatable was that Germany certainly and for sure could have stalled the war in Europe without US involvement.

 

What I question though was is it possible for the United States to stay out of this war? The answer to this is certainly no. Hitler was a very ambitious man. Logic should tell you that he would never had been satisfied but just conquering Europe. He wanted to conquer the World. 

 

Plans were discovered in which they showed Hitlers next move after Europe, which was into the Americas. With Germany attacking through the North, and through Canada, and Japan and Allies attacking through the South. They did not build roads and set up bases in Northern Canada for nothing. So it is not a question anymore if the United States would have gotten into this war if they were not attacked by Japan. The only question is when they would.     

 

Did Japan expect to win a war against the United States? No! But then they were not trying to do that or expected that. What Japan was trying to do was cripple the US Navy so they could invade South East Asia. This is the treasure Japan wanted and not the United States.

 

It is not a coincidence that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, then on December 8, 1941, and only 10 hours later, launched their invasion of the Philippines. That at this time the Philippines was under the United States protection. So had they attacked the Philippines first and not Pearl Harbor, they knew they would have the full might of the USA Navy on their tails. Had Japan been able to take South East Asia including the Philippines without involving the USA, I am sure they would ave done that.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, thaihome said:

 

Actually the first US action in the war (other then north Atlantic anti sub actions) was in the Pacific in Aug 1942 at Guadalcanal.  US troops did not engage the Germans until landings in North Africa in November that same year.

 

The main focus was indeed on Germany, but the Japanese were nowhere near ignored and by mid 1945 when Germany surrendered,  there was nothing left to do by then  but invade the home islands. I'm not convinced the pacific war would have gone much faster even with more focus purely due to logistics in getting the material to the fronts.  In the meantime, without the western European front opening in 1944, the Germans might have been able to overwhelm the Russians or least drive them in to Siberia.  With the Russians out of the way,  it would have been much more difficult and maybe impossible for the western Allies to beat the Germans in Western Europe.  The war in Europe was much closer, and during 1941-2 in serious doubt, then most people think.

 

Stalin certainly took advantage of the Allies victory in Europe to push communism into Eastern Europe,  but nobody, including Churchill, was willing to go straight into a war with Russia that Stalin would have no problem with. Patton was willing, but it would not haver been approved by Congress unless Stalin seriously provoked it and he was smart enough not to do so.  Hindsight about Eastern Europe does not take into consideration what was actually going on politically in both the US and the UK at the time. People were not going to fight another war over Poland.   

TH

I am sorry but I am not claiming the first battles were with Germany or the war wasn't fought on 2 fronts at the same time. Of course the highest priority for the United States was to protect the home front first. This included rebuilding, training, and also the battle with Japan on Midway Island.

 

But as you said the main focus was on Germany. For example North Africa in November of 1942, and as you pointed out, and the invasion of Sicily by American Troops in July 1943, when the Philippines was not invaded and rescued until October 1944. I am also not saying this was the wrong decision, or that the war would have ended sooner.They won the war didn't they? It was only MacArthur who thinks differently. 

 

I was only saying that if they let the Germans and Russian fight it out more without army help after June of 1944, both armies would have been weaker. With Germany now losing against the Russians, they would have had to pull more troops out of the Western Front to fight on the Eastern Front, to protect Germany. Thus Russia would have been in a weaker bargaining position after the war to. Although I actually doubt if this would have made a difference at all.

 

I guess what really should have happened is that they should have stood up to Russia right after the war and said you can't have half of Europe. After all, they had the A Bomb on their side. This is what Churchill wanted to do. Come War or not. The UK had an Alliance with Poland and the attack on Poland started this war. Kennedy stood up against the Russians when they wanted to plant missiles on Cuba, and the Soviets backed down. I think they would have here to.    

 

[thaihome]

12 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Sorry to disagree but this was not a mistake Hitler made. Germany had a Military Alliance with Japan. When the States Declared War on Japan, they in essence declared war on Germany to. So to honor this alliance Germany had no choice but to declare war back on the United States as well. If memory serves me correctly, it was the only time Germany Declared War on anyone before they attacked.

 

In my personal view, the biggest mistake Hitler made during this war was to attack Russia and start a war on 2 fronts at the same time. Even his own Highest Ranking Generals disagreed with Hitler, but Hitler was Hitler. The Millions of well trained troops and armored vehicles he moved up to the Easter Front could have been left behind on the Western one.

 

Could Germany have won the war without the US involvement? Or even with the US Involvement and having Russia as an Allie instead of an Enemy? That to me sounds like a good friendly debate over plenty of beers and a long night as there are many reason for and against this possibility. What isn't debatable was that Germany certainly and for sure could have stalled the war in Europe without US involvement.

 

What I question though was is it possible for the United States to stay out of this war? The answer to this is certainly no. Hitler was a very ambitious man. Logic should tell you that he would never had been satisfied but just conquering Europe. He wanted to conquer the World. 

 

Plans were discovered in which they showed Hitlers next move after Europe, which was into the Americas. With Germany attacking through the North, and through Canada, and Japan and Allies attacking through the South. They did not build roads and set up bases in Northern Canada for nothing. So it is not a question anymore if the United States would have gotten into this war if they were not attacked by Japan. The only question is when they would.     

 

Did Japan expect to win a war against the United States? No! But then they were not trying to do that or expected that. What Japan was trying to do was cripple the US Navy so they could invade South East Asia. This is the treasure Japan wanted and not the United States.

 

It is not a coincidence that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, then on December 8, 1941, and only 10 hours later, launched their invasion of the Philippines. That at this time the Philippines was under the United States protection. So had they attacked the Philippines first and not Pearl Harbor, they knew they would have the full might of the USA Navy on their tails. Had Japan been able to take South East Asia including the Philippines without involving the USA, I am sure they would ave done that.  

 

The Tripartite Pact only required Germany to assist Japan if it was attacked,  not if it attacked first.  Some evidence suggests Hitler had verbally  told the Japanese he would declare war on the US if Japan did attack, but he was not under treaty obligation to do so. He was not warned about Pearl Harbor before hand.

 

As Pearl Harbor occurred at the same time as Russia had started its counter attack outside Moscow,  some suggest this was an attempt to get Japan to declare war on the Soviet  Union in order to help Germany's efforts and open a second from the on the Russians. Hitler also thought this would allow his subs to more freely attack US shipping in the north Atlantic.  Hitler also was deeply offended by Roosevelt's verbal attacks on Nazism.   Many historians think this was a pivotal point in the war.  

 

I do agree, there was little chance of the US staying out of the European war, but in late 1941, there was little support for a war against Germany and Roosevelt was struggling to keep the lend-lease program funded in Congress. It's entry would likely have been delayed at least a year. As 1942 was a mid term election year, the European war likely would have been a big issue and with a very active isolation movement still around, not entering would have had some popularity. A lot would have depended on what had happened in the undeclared north Atlantic sub war.  A couple of US Navy ships sunk might have turned the US population more against Germany. 

 

I do agree Hitler's invasion of Russia was a catastrophe for them, but if it had gone off in April as scheduled instead of June (delayed by the invasion of the Balkans and Greece to support Mussonlini), the Germans might have pulled it off having almost 3 months longer before winter set in. The weather that winter probably had has much to do with the coming catastrophe as the Red Army.

 

It's is important to look at German industrial production during war. It continued to rise, peaking in 1944. If Germany had not had to fight the US in North Africa in  1942 and later Italy in 1943 and finally France in mid 1944, it could have concentrated on a single front against the Russians for close to 3 years. This likely would have at least driven the Russians east of the Urals and out of the war for a while. Hitler then would have been able to defend France against an invasion that would have taken place 2 years or so after the US entered the war (the same length of time as the buildup to Normandy) without full out war going on against Russia.

 

The timing of the US entry into the war was critical to the victory,  though few really understood that at the time. The key was where Germany had to use it's remarkable levels of industrial production  from 1941 to 1944. Having to fight a two front war for 3 years, pretty much doomed them. A delay of even a year in the US entry into the war might have made a huge difference and Germany might have never had to fully engage on two fronts.

 

For the Japanese,  not getting the fuel oil depot at Pearl Harbor, compounded by missing the few aircraft carriers made the sneak attack strategically worthless and did nothing but poke the hornets nest of US reaction. The Japanese would have been just as well off, and maybe better, to go ahead with attacks on the Philippines and Malaya without it.  The US still would have declared war, but the Battle of Midway might have not taken place if Japan had focused on southeast Asia and not in immediately defeating the US Navy in the east Pacific.  Who knows.

 

They seriously miscalculated the US reaction based on the  previous rather weak US reaction to the USS Panay incident in 1937 and other confrontations in China up to 1941. This combined with the arrogance of the Japanese high command made them think the US would sue for peace quickly after a devastating defeat at Pearl Harbor and the Philippines.  

 

They were completely wrong and knew it by the end of 1942. Only the pride and arrogance of the Japanese high command kept the war going for another 3 years and ended up killing several million people needlessly (mostly Japanese).

 

The biggest irony today continues to be everything the Japanese wanted to accomplish in 1937 with the war, was done by the 1980's anyway. In the very  long run (70 years) the two biggest winners of WWII are the Germans and Japanese. 

 

TH

 

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

33 minutes ago, thaihome said:

 

The Tripartite Pact only required Germany to assist Japan if it was attacked,  not if it attacked first.  Some evidence suggests Hitler had verbally  told the Japanese he would declare war on the US if Japan did attack, but he was not under treaty obligation to do so. He was not warned about Pearl Harbor before hand.

 

As Pearl Harbor occurred at the same time as Russia had started its counter attack outside Moscow,  some suggest this was an attempt to get Japan to declare war on the Soviet  Union in order to help Germany's efforts and open a second from the on the Russians. Hitler also thought this would allow his subs to more freely attack US shipping in the north Atlantic.  Hitler also was deeply offended by Roosevelt's verbal attacks on Nazism.   Many historians think this was a pivotal point in the war.  

 

I do agree, there was little chance of the US staying out of the European war, but in late 1941, there was little support for a war against Germany and Roosevelt was struggling to keep the lend-lease program funded in Congress. It's entry would likely have been delayed at least a year. As 1942 was a mid term election year, the European war likely would have been a big issue and with a very active isolation movement still around, not entering would have had some popularity. A lot would have depended on what had happened in the undeclared north Atlantic sub war.  A couple of US Navy ships sunk might have turned the US population more against Germany. 

 

I do agree Hitler's invasion of Russia was a catastrophe for them, but if it had gone off in April as scheduled instead of June (delayed by the invasion of the Balkans and Greece to support Mussonlini), the Germans might have pulled it off having almost 3 months longer before winter set in. The weather that winter probably had has much to do with the coming catastrophe as the Red Army.

 

It's is important to look at German industrial production during war. It continued to rise, peaking in 1944. If Germany had not had to fight the US in North Africa in  1942 and later Italy in 1943 and finally France in mid 1944, it could have concentrated on a single front against the Russians for close to 3 years. This likely would have at least driven the Russians east of the Urals and out of the war for a while. Hitler then would have been able to defend France against an invasion that would have taken place 2 years or so after the US entered the war (the same length of time as the buildup to Normandy) without full out war going on against Russia.

 

The timing of the US entry into the war was critical to the victory,  though few really understood that at the time. The key was where Germany had to use it's remarkable levels of industrial production  from 1941 to 1944. Having to fight a two front war for 3 years, pretty much doomed them. A delay of even a year in the US entry into the war might have made a huge difference and Germany might have never had to fully engage on two fronts.

 

For the Japanese,  not getting the fuel oil depot at Pearl Harbor, compounded by missing the few aircraft carriers made the sneak attack strategically worthless and did nothing but poke the hornets nest of US reaction. The Japanese would have been just as well off, and maybe better, to go ahead with attacks on the Philippines and Malaya without it.  The US still would have declared war, but the Battle of Midway might have not taken place if Japan had focused on southeast Asia and not in immediately defeating the US Navy in the east Pacific.  Who knows.

 

They seriously miscalculated the US reaction based on the  previous rather weak US reaction to the USS Panay incident in 1937 and other confrontations in China up to 1941. This combined with the arrogance of the Japanese high command made them think the US would sue for peace quickly after a devastating defeat at Pearl Harbor and the Philippines.  

 

They were completely wrong and knew it by the end of 1942. Only the pride and arrogance of the Japanese high command kept the war going for another 3 years and ended up killing several million people needlessly (mostly Japanese).

 

The biggest irony today continues to be everything the Japanese wanted to accomplish in 1937 with the war, was done by the 1980's anyway. In the very  long run (70 years) the two biggest winners of WWII are the Germans and Japanese. 

 

TH

 

 

 

Interesting post and you make some very good points. But again a lot of "What If's'. which makes for a great debate with friends over beers and a long night, but nothing that can be absolutely proved as history tells us that it didn't happen this way. 

 

Sure a lot of things could have been different if they happened in different ways and at different times. If the United States did not enter the war when they were provoked to, or the war was delayed by a few years, it might have been the Germans who developed the Atomic Bomb first, and the Rocket Technology to send them to the United Kingdom or Russia, or even the USA. What a difference that would make.

 

But I do disagree with some points you made. For one Germany did know about Pearl Harbor from the Japanese before hand. But only about 4 days ahead of time and not the exact details. Hitler was delighted by this fact. But I guess I would have to agree with you in that Hitler was not forced or obligated under treaty to declare war on the United States.

 

Hitler never honored any previous treaty in the past with France or the rest of Europe, United Kingdom, or Russia, so why would this one be special with Japan? But I don't think that it was a huge mistake on Hitlers part to declare war on the United States, and as you earlier claimed. By then the United States was in the war by then, an as you said yourself they could not avoid the war in Europe then. So it really makes no difference if Hitler declared war or not. 

 

I do agree it was a mistake on Japans part not to take out the fuel tanks and a few other things, with their attack on Pearl Harbor. One could argue it was a big mistake by Germany not taking out the Radar Systems in the United Kingdom during their early bomb raids, as this could have had a different outcome on the Battle of Britain, with the few pilots now operating blindly. Germany wouldn't have lost so many plains then. Germany stopped bombing raids on the UK as there could not keep up production as fast as they were loosing there airplanes. So much for Germany and it's high production levels you claim they had towards the end of the war. 

 

But I do disagree when you say the attack on Pear Harbor was strategically worthless. Japan damaged all 8 of the US Battle Ships, with 4 of them being sunk. They sank or damaged 3 Cruisers and 3 Destroyers, as well as a anti-aircraft ship and mine layer ship. There were 3,500 Americans which were either killed or injured, with many being Trained Military Personnel and more difficult to replace at this time. It was only by luck that the Aircraft Carriers were out a sea when this attack took place or it could have been a lot worst.

 

Again we could debate this forever, but what I do strongly disagree with you most on is when you said that Germany and Japan were the two biggest winners of WWII. Obviously having your country split in half, with East Germany being part of the Soviet Union, and having the Atomic Bomb dropped on two of your larger cities, and both countries ending this war by unconditional surrender doesn't mean that much to you. If it is because after 70 years both Germany and Japan are economic powers now, you have to keep in mind they both were before the start of the war as well.     

[hawker9000]

We had a friend of the family when I was a kid who was a post-WWII Polish immigrant.  This fellow was the absolute epitome of cheerfulness & good will.  Always all smiles and a gentle nature.   Except when speaking of Nazis or Communists.  Though it seldom came up, the smiles would disappear and he'd speak those two words with the same blood-curdling loathing and contempt.