Brexit: High Court judges to give legal verdict

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

They do like to cling to their 'brexiters are thick' comfort blanket, don't they?

 

By the way, he forgot to mention that the latest opinion polls also show even less support for remain than previously. I'm sure it was an oversight.

 

Thats interesting! The ones I saw showed a small majority for remain. Please share the details

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

 

So an MP's "representation" of his constituents is no obligation, or am I missing something?

 

MPs are supposed to vote for what they consider is in the best interests of their constituents. That may not be what the majority say they want.

29 minutes ago, jpinx said:

"riffraff" are as much entitled to representation as anyone, but what's at stake is the consensus of opinion of all the constituents.

 

No, you still don't get it.

[jpinx]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

MPs are supposed to vote for what they consider is in the best interests of their constituents. That may not be what the majority say they want.

 

No, you still don't get it.

 

That smacks of serious arrogance -- "I know what's best for you little boy"  - and has no place in democracy, even if the "boy" is not well-educated.

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Thats interesting! The ones I saw showed a small majority for remain. Please share the details

 YouGov have regularly asked if people think the decision to leave was right or wrong, and have tended to find slightly more people saying it was the right decision. The pattern of opinion is pretty consistent – movement between Remain and Leave is small and tends to cancel out, people who didn’t vote at all tend to split in favour of it being the wrong decision:

YouGov/Times (11th-12th Oct) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (13th-14th Sep) – Right to Leave 46%, Wrong to Leave 43%
YouGov/Times (30th-31st Aug) – Right to Leave 47%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (22nd-23rd Aug) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 43%
YouGov/Times (8th-9th Aug) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (1st-2nd Aug) – Right to Leave 46%, Wrong to Leave 42%

 

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

[Grouse]

56 minutes ago, jpinx said:

 

That smacks of serious arrogance -- "I know what's best for you little boy"  - and has no place in democracy, even if the "boy" is not well-educated.

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. These days, we could all vote on everything, every day.

 

Im happy to elect someone who I believe is likely to make wise decisions on my behalf.

[Grouse]

53 minutes ago, jpinx said:

 YouGov have regularly asked if people think the decision to leave was right or wrong, and have tended to find slightly more people saying it was the right decision. The pattern of opinion is pretty consistent – movement between Remain and Leave is small and tends to cancel out, people who didn’t vote at all tend to split in favour of it being the wrong decision:

YouGov/Times (11th-12th Oct) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (13th-14th Sep) – Right to Leave 46%, Wrong to Leave 43%
YouGov/Times (30th-31st Aug) – Right to Leave 47%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (22nd-23rd Aug) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 43%
YouGov/Times (8th-9th Aug) – Right to Leave 45%, Wrong to Leave 44%
YouGov/Times (1st-2nd Aug) – Right to Leave 46%, Wrong to Leave 42%

 

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

 

Thank you. Interesting!

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. These days, we could all vote on everything, every day.

 

Im happy to elect someone who I believe is likely to make wise decisions on my behalf.

 

Except that in this matter, parliament gave the decision to the people, and made it very clear that the peoples' decision would be carried out.

[ilostmypassword]

Actually, Parliament didn't make it clear at all.  They could easily have changed the wording to make it so. No, they chose to leave themselves some wiggle room.  Given the current political situation, they won't have wiggle room enough.I think the odds are overwhelming that the commons will approve it and will override the Lords if they have to.

[soalbundy]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

probably not as much as ignoring the wishes of 52% ?

I had problems with the word democratic. You cant have a true democracy with more than 3,000 people (they can then all vote on every decision) the nearest you could get is proportional representation say as in Germany.

 

I would have accepted a capped majority of say 70% but not basically 50/50.

 

Unfortunately i see Brexit happening but probably a pragmatic watered down version if we are lucky and then only in about 3 years time. All this hooray,hooray we will be better off is emotional jingoism, serious news papers ie not the Daily Express or the Sun predict the first serious financial consequences in 2018, remember we haven't left yet and the pound is already being rubbished.

 

May's high powered visit to India to put out feelers for new deals was put down by an Indian cabinet minister as 'an after thought' India has invested heavily in the UK because it is a springboard to the rest of Europe, it wont be in the future,why invest in an island when the rest of the continent lies waiting.

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, Parliament didn't make it clear at all.  They could easily have changed the wording to make it so. No, they chose to leave themselves some wiggle room.  Given the current political situation, they won't have wiggle room enough.I think the odds are overwhelming that the commons will approve it and will override the Lords if they have to.

 

This is very true - it's proving to be a more divisive issue than expected - but only because the result is being handled so badly

[Khun Han]

24 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, Parliament didn't make it clear at all.  They could easily have changed the wording to make it so. No, they chose to leave themselves some wiggle room.  Given the current political situation, they won't have wiggle room enough.I think the odds are overwhelming that the commons will approve it and will override the Lords if they have to.

 

Prime Minister May in today's Sunday Telegraph:

 

“Parliament voted to put the decision about our membership of the EU in the hands of the British people. The people made their choice, and did so decisively.

 

“It is the responsibility of the government to get on with the job and to carry out their instruction in full.  MPs and peers who regret the referendum result need to accept what the people decided.”

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/05/the-people-have-made-their-democratic-decision-and-a-principle-i/

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

 

That smacks of serious arrogance -- "I know what's best for you little boy"  - and has no place in democracy, even if the "boy" is not well-educated.

I would disagree, i may have opinions on how the plumbing is done in my house but i leave it to the plumber as to what is right.

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I would disagree, i may have opinions on how the plumbing is done in my house but i leave it to the plumber as to what is right.

That's a very misleading analogy.  An MP does not have the expertise in all things to be able to do the right thing for everyone. 

[soalbundy]

Just now, jpinx said:

That's a very misleading analogy.  An MP does not have the expertise in all things to be able to do the right thing for everyone. 

No but he does have his staff and can have direct contact to experienced advisers on any number of subjects which aren't open to us, unless one is an avid reader of serious publications, ie not the gutter press, on a particular subject it is difficult to be fully informed, unfortunately i feel many use the Sun or the Daily Express in place of serious material, not enough pictures and they don't report the football results.

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No but he does have his staff and can have direct contact to experienced advisers on any number of subjects which aren't open to us, unless one is an avid reader of serious publications, ie not the gutter press, on a particular subject it is difficult to be fully informed, unfortunately i feel many use the Sun or the Daily Express in place of serious material, not enough pictures and they don't report the football results.

Given that MP's are selected by their party (not elected) and placed in the constituency the party feels is best for the Party, and then the voter votes for a party, the disconnect between MP and constituent is almost total.  I appreciate I am wandering off-topic and into the rights and wrongs of the UK party political system, but in terms of Brexit, if the MPs had a good handle on their constituents views on the EU there would not have been a referendum at all, Brexit would have happened by motion and debate in the house anyway.  The fact that government felt that they needed a referendum is clear illustration of this disconnect - compounded by their inability to adapt to any change in their constituents collective feelings about the EU.

[rockingrobin]

50 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Except that in this matter, parliament gave the decision to the people, and made it very clear that the peoples' decision would be carried out.

 

47 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, Parliament didn't make it clear at all.  They could easily have changed the wording to make it so. No, they chose to leave themselves some wiggle room.  Given the current political situation, they won't have wiggle room enough.I think the odds are overwhelming that the commons will approve it and will override the Lords if they have to.

The Act was silent on the issue as opposed to the 2011 AV Act which was explicit.

However 

Shindler v Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster [2016] EWCA Civ 469, Lord Dyson MR said that “by passing the [European Union Referendum Act 2015] Parliament decided that one of the constitutional requirements that had to be satisfied as a condition of a withdrawal from the EU was a referendum”

 

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Given that MP's are selected by their party (not elected) and placed in the constituency the party feels is best for the Party, and then the voter votes for a party, the disconnect between MP and constituent is almost total.  I appreciate I am wandering off-topic and into the rights and wrongs of the UK party political system, but in terms of Brexit, if the MPs had a good handle on their constituents views on the EU there would not have been a referendum at all, Brexit would have happened by motion and debate in the house anyway.  The fact that government felt that they needed a referendum is clear illustration of this disconnect - compounded by their inability to adapt to any change in their constituents collective feelings about the EU.

I don't think MP's should always regard and act on the feelings of their constituents, they should act in the best interests of the population. One could imagine that constituents would abolish tax on earnings or bring back the death penalty, get free housing,abolish university fees or whatever. Rome tried appeasing the populace with bread and games and went bankrupt.

[jpinx]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't think MP's should always regard and act on the feelings of their constituents, they should act in the best interests of the population. One could imagine that constituents would abolish tax on earnings or bring back the death penalty, get free housing,abolish university fees or whatever. Rome tried appeasing the populace with bread and games and went bankrupt.

it's this term "best interests" that causes so much aggravation.  The MP will work for his parties best interests long before his constituents because that way he has a good record within the party and will keep his job.  There is no altruism here, no higher morality .. . it's a job.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't think MP's should always regard and act on the feelings of their constituents, they should act in the best interests of the population. One could imagine that constituents would abolish tax on earnings or bring back the death penalty, get free housing,abolish university fees or whatever. Rome tried appeasing the populace with bread and games and went bankrupt.

 

This isn't 'feelings'. It was a national referendum which instructed the sitting government to take us out of the EU. And, as PM May has stated in today's Telegraph, the government is going to act on the instructions of the people.

 

As far as I'm concerned, any MPs who think they know better should resign their seat and stand as an indy in the resulting by election, with remain high on their policy list. We'll then find out how much their constituents want them as their representative.

[rockingrobin]

51 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Prime Minister May in today's Sunday Telegraph:

 

“Parliament voted to put the decision about our membership of the EU in the hands of the British people. The people made their choice, and did so decisively.

 

“It is the responsibility of the government to get on with the job and to carry out their instruction in full.  MPs and peers who regret the referendum result need to accept what the people decided.”

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/05/the-people-have-made-their-democratic-decision-and-a-principle-i/

This seems at odds with the SoS, who derives his authority to give notice under prerogative and not the referendum. Paras 105 onwards 

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/judgment-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-eu-20161103.pdf

[soalbundy]

20 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

This isn't 'feelings'. It was a national referendum which instructed the sitting government to take us out of the EU. And, as PM May has stated in today's Telegraph, the government is going to act on the instructions of the people.

 

As far as I'm concerned, any MPs who think they know better should resign their seat and stand as an indy in the resulting by election, with remain high on their policy list. We'll then find out how much their constituents want them as their representative.

Trouble is that the people voted with their 'feelings' not objectively, immigration,immigration,immigration. These high feelings are also apparent in Germany. I would have thought, maybe i'm wrong, that once the safety concerns of these 'immigrants' in their own country have been solved then then they are to return back home, ie, they are not immigrants but refugees. In Germany they need vast numbers of immigrants to keep their generous pension scheme afloat,there just aren't enough German children being born to support the future pensioners but the German populace, like the British, want their cake and eat it as well.

If you want MP's just to rubber stamp the opinions of their constituents you could do without them,get a robot.

[Grouse]

55 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Given that MP's are selected by their party (not elected) and placed in the constituency the party feels is best for the Party, and then the voter votes for a party, the disconnect between MP and constituent is almost total.  I appreciate I am wandering off-topic and into the rights and wrongs of the UK party political system, but in terms of Brexit, if the MPs had a good handle on their constituents views on the EU there would not have been a referendum at all, Brexit would have happened by motion and debate in the house anyway.  The fact that government felt that they needed a referendum is clear illustration of this disconnect - compounded by their inability to adapt to any change in their constituents collective feelings about the EU.

 

Why do you think a large majority of MPs are remainers?

[jpinx]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

Why do you think a large majority of MPs are remainers?

Obviously sheep following their then-leader,  Camoron.  Now wait to see them do a quick about-turn to suit the new "party-line" in a desperate attempt to keep their jobs....  

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

This isn't 'feelings'. It was a national referendum which instructed the sitting government to take us out of the EU. And, as PM May has stated in today's Telegraph, the government is going to act on the instructions of the people.

 

As far as I'm concerned, any MPs who think they know better should resign their seat and stand as an indy in the resulting by election, with remain high on their policy list. We'll then find out how much their constituents want them as their representative.

 

So you want to change the way our constitution operates? That's very brave of you. We COULD vote on everything. Do you want that? Close to anarchy in my view.

 

I expect parliament will agree to Brexit but will force a sensible way forward ?

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Obviously sheep following their then-leader,  Camoron.  Now wait to see them do a quick about-turn to suit the new "party-line" in a desperate attempt to keep their jobs....  

 

I just find it odd that most of the smart, educated, well informed people tend to be remainers. Are we all sheep? Don't you think it even slightly worrying? 

[jpinx]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

So you want to change the way our constitution operates? That's very brave of you. We COULD vote on everything. Do you want that? Close to anarchy in my view.

 

I expect parliament will agree to Brexit but will force a sensible way forward ?

 

Go for the Swiss model maybe? 

 

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

I just find it odd that most of the smart, educated, well informed people tend to be remainers. Are we all sheep? Don't you think it even slightly worrying? 

 

Actually many of the "educated" folks are the most inclined to "sheepy-ness".  Some years of experience in management training has demonstrated that "sheepy" is the natural state at all levels of education, and rising above that has little or nothing to do with it.

[Grouse]

28 minutes ago, jpinx said:

 

Go for the Swiss model maybe? 

 

 

Actually many of the "educated" folks are the most inclined to "sheepy-ness".  Some years of experience in management training has demonstrated that "sheepy" is the natural state at all levels of education, and rising above that has little or nothing to do with it.

 

Yes, The Swiss and Norwegians have their solutions but there are problems with both. Best to keep the single market / customs union though!

 

As for sheep, maybe I'm a black tup ( now that's a Yorkshireman for you!)

 

Actually, it occurs to me that the comfortably off are less inclined to be rebellious and thus appear sheepy?

 

From that you could deduce that the less successful, the less satisfied would be more rebellious and more inclined to vote leave?

 

By George, I think we've got it! ?

Edited November 6, 2016 by Grouse

[jpinx]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

Yes, The Swiss and Norwegians have their solutions but there are problems with both. Best to keep the single market / customs union though!

 

As for sheep, maybe I'm a black tup ( now that's a Yorkshireman for you!)

 

Every system has it's issues, but the one UK has is particularly  lopsided.

 

Scots, too, refer to "tups". 

[jpinx]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Yes, The Swiss and Norwegians have their solutions but there are problems with both. Best to keep the single market / customs union though!

 

As for sheep, maybe I'm a black tup ( now that's a Yorkshireman for you!)

 

Actually, it occurs to me that the comfortably off are less inclined to be rebellious and thus appear sheepy?

 

From that you could deduce that the less successful, the less satisfied would be more rebellious and more inclined to vote leave?

 

By George, I think we've got it! ?

 

Who's George ?

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

 

Who's George ?

 

Its a euphemism 

 

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/by_George

 

Yorkshiremen would say "by 'eck"