123ace

For the avoidance of doubt this report relates to the domestic housing market only, which were led to believe was doing very well anyway.

The foreign specific sector will not recover any time soon and will continue to be an unrelated industry to the local market in many respects.

I'm loving it! not

Your Thai lady friend can talk to the committee on your behalf as your proxy - just ignore whatever anyone else says. the issue is whether she understands what she is asking for and what the issues are etc.

Based on my understanding a short term rental would require a hotel licience. A juristic condo does not automatically have this licience and therefore you should not do one night rentals. 6 - 12 months is accpeted as being ok.

In practice many people do one night rentals, particularly in Hua Hin, and it is only an issue when a complaint is made and then the Juristic Person could be held laible for allowing an illegal trade in the building.

My advice is not do it unless there are lots of others doing it already, although it appears that your committee is aware of your interest and is anti it, as is the JPM based on your comments. As the committee seems to be all Thai and you are foreign, I would forget the whole thing as they can no longer claim that they did not know (that you were hoteling etc) and they are duty bound to reject any approval.

I was not suprised that the tour opertaor would not accomodate a seriously wounded client and stuck with the tour irrespective. Tourism here is a bottom feeding sector, land of smiles, yeah right.

The showroom is not very nice by current standards and its sold as leasehold in a market dominated by freehold. It's not on the beach, but called the beaches. Long term sea views will be at risk due to the huge and deep land plots between the site and the beach able to accomodate high rises, So it may become a victiom of its own sucess in making the area more popular for new development on the beach front land.

For the water park to work it may be expected to require extensive parking for bus loads of koreans, chinese etc (and locals). They will be there to swim in the pool and will wiz and gob in the pool...

I don't think it is retrocative so the 4 year start is from the commncement of the new rule.

It's limted to 4 consecutive years (2+2) without opportunity to be voted on again (years 5 to 6) only if there is a lack of new eligible candidates to be on the committee. So in the absence of sufficient new candidates an incumbent at the end of year 4 may propose for re-election.

No transacation equals no fee - so any agent will invariably actually act for the tenant / buyer as THEY control the agents ability to get a fee. Alternatively work with two agents to identify space in the same builing - this quickly leads to a price cutting war where the tenant benefits.

Or you can just go ahead and try and find every unit for rent in a mass market building and then on the basis of no factual market knowledge try to secure the best terms - at least if you are an unemployed long stay toursit type this gives you something to do and may make a wanna-be expat feel positive in seeking a rental home...

What are you talking about?

I would not go near an agent if you can avoid it. You are more valuable to a prospective landlord without one. If you go through an agent your rent will effectivly be marked- up 10 to 15 % as a minimum to cover the agents commision. You would be better off doing a "net" deal directly.The issue is how to contact the owners. Might be worth going along and introduce yourself at the building to the buillding management. On a new project like this there is usualy someone who deals with the transfers , they are will be in close touch with the purchasers and know who wants to sell or rent,try to get to know them; 500bt here and there can help! Sometimes they may also get some small commision from the landlord for introducing a tenant, or , they may just want to try to help their customers.In this market there will be some desparate prospective landlords out there so you have a great chance of getting a good deal.

I did exactly this the last time I rented and ended up getting an apartment significantly below the price CBRE were asking for the same unit. Also Prakard.com is worth a look as it is often used by landlords who want to reach renters without going through an agent.

On price, you will pay slightly more for a new prestige project with a good fit-out and high quality furnishing, but, as a rule of thumb, for a high quality unit ,you should be paying no more than 50 % of the sqm area in baht multiplied by1000; eg if the unit is 180sqm then 90000 bt per month maximum etc. With a bit of negotiation you should be able to get it a fair bit cheaper.

Load of rubbish in your post. Your opinion is not universal for all unit owners, and through intelligent use of the agent the rental fee can be reduced. Your approach may work for the type of expat with too much time on their hands, but frankly its insulting and simple minded.

For the Met, where there are clearly a lot of units available for rent you will see rents decline in the short term due to excess supply and limited (very limted) demand. Call every agent - nobody can updte a website in real time and no agnets list all the unist they have - its not hard!

Very easy to ask for a taxi to Rama 4 or Lumpini Park, however, I suggest you ask for a taxi to take you to where you are actually going. The park is very big and it will be dark so just ask for where you want to go, you are not sleeping in the park and Rama 4 is very long.

The only hotel on the Rama 4 / Lumpini park stretch is the Dusit.

The journey is quick its not far at all. Should not cost more that THB 70 max.

When you refer to contract do you mean employement letter rather than a fixed period contract? empoyment is open ended, and you can't terminate a sales person on the basis of poor sales performance. You may try and issue three separate warning citing non-performance or whatever (being late etc) and try to dismiss without serverance, however the employee could dispute this and take you to the labour court.

For dismissal vs resignation, if you fire them with severance they don't resign, unless you can negotiate a compromise where they 'resign' to save face and you pay them a sum less than the full severance.

Realtors love tenants as much as buyers, we equally need those that can't or chose not to buy to establish an effective market Landlord and Tenant system. So JD, please don't buy and please encouarge others not to. Fine by me.

I will be happy to see less of these sold as they are driven very often by people that can't afford a sports car, so they drive a fortuner flat out. The Camry would also not be missed. There is something about many of the people that drive these cars, and its not something nice.

If you have not noticed this yet, you will now.

Lucky Phuket is not China and this fantasy is irrelevant then.

123ace re your comment: "Bank exposure is almost a non issue. " in relation to 2 other projects:

1. La Royale - do you know if it ever got its final bank funding to finish the development properly?

2. In connection with the supersized Jotmien 90 storey project which we aren't seemingly allowed to mention, do you know whether that was going to be bank-funded, which I would expect, and if so, how that is going? No recent announcements about funding or construction anywhere?

Cheers.

Sharecropper, I don't have confirmed answers on either, although I have heard rumors that some unit owners at La Royale have moved out recently.

For the bldg that can't be mentioned, again no news.

On a similar note Waterfront's showoom is shut and The Beaches has a few workers that appear to be piling and building perimiter walls.

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

You apparently know only one side of the "Thai people". The Thais who can afford it love to visit Europe and certainly enjoy the food.

And I might be an exception, because I like to eat foreign food, so I am not sticked to mom's cuisine.

Cheers

Maybe, but my work takes me overseas with a team of Thai's several times per year. Unless its China where they seem to revel in chinese stuff I can't eat, they have a hunger for Thai food akin to a vampire needing a blood fix!

For me - I seem to have mexican thing going half the time these days...

I hold a very Cautious outlook for the Pattaya real estate situation and would not be surprised if we see an almost continual stream of new and new-ish developers continue to pump the market with stock. This will inevitably continue to keep the level of supply in excess of the level of demand for decades. Over the next few years we will see many existing freehold condos become depreciating assets due to poor facilities management and local environment degradation.

Only the best of the existing supply will prosper, where a good building, with good units in a well maintained location are able to hold values over time.

Does anybody know how The Cliff in Pratumnak hill is doing? I hear they have sold as many as 300 units, if so expect many, many more to follow…

Same talking for years. BUT, why banks support all these projects if all are heading for bankruptcy?

However, I would not buy for speculation reasons now. One can be happy to rent out a nice condo to reliable people at prices which are 30-40 % below the levels 2-3 yrs ago.

I do not believe in the excess supply for luxury condos. Those are way overpriced and Pattaya will not become as fancy as the developers want it to become (FORTUNATELY!).

If you observe the market there is now a trend for cheaper, smaller sized projects as well, which can be bought at much more reasonable prices.

Cheers

I would like to agree but I am seeing signs that floods of new buildings are on their way. The trend is for smaller and cheaper as well, so the window of opprtunity in the one area that worked is potentially limited.

Banks don't support these projects. The land costs from US 500,000 to 3 million US and it is normally a cash funded buy by a wealthy individual, often with non-resident investors. The architects, ad desigsn etc are all quite cheap and the intention is for construction to be largely self funded by buyers. Bank exposure is almost a non issue.

Try the idea on that a lot of these "Irish" establishments were financed from the Irish bubble. Long gone now and all the hot dosh with it so soft vanity businesses go belly up.

A reasonable theory but the reality is that almost all of the "Irish" bars are both owned and patronised by Brits and Aussies. They are what they are, and I don't want to knock them but it takes more than a few generic bits of Irish decoration to make an Irish pub. When I go home to potato land and walk into the local, having been away for more than a year, I know that the barman will say "Ach it's yourself. How's things out in Bangkok?" and have a pint on the way before I've sat down. It's the people that make a pub, not the wallpaper.

True, its like assuming McDonalds is Scottish or Starbucks is from the Battle Star Gallactica universe... ANyone with half a ounce of knowledge would know that most of these F&B outlets are franchised anyway.

I like the Brit & Irish pubs as they are a relief from the pikey go - go's (a necessary evil), they have TV with satellite and after 20 years I am somewhat bored of the local fare. I appreciate that a newbie would be suprised though, as might a native Indian arriving in Bradford.

I hold a very Cautious outlook for the Pattaya real estate situation and would not be surprised if we see an almost continual stream of new and new-ish developers continue to pump the market with stock. This will inevitably continue to keep the level of supply in excess of the level of demand for decades. Over the next few years we will see many existing freehold condos become depreciating assets due to poor facilities management and local environment degradation.

Only the best of the existing supply will prosper, where a good building, with good units in a well maintained location are able to hold values over time.

Does anybody know how The Cliff in Pratumnak hill is doing? I hear they have sold as many as 300 units, if so expect many, many more to follow…

Hello Sharecropper, I have 3 Germans renting out 3 rooms,1 Australian,1 American,2 Hungarians,2 English,1 French.

All the Germans work here,Australian retired,american Retired,2 Hungarians (don't have a clue to be honest)english on Holiday.French also.

Units size between 74 -90 sqm 3 years ago i could rent out for between 28-35 in High season,20-25 low season,i now rent out between 15-20 thousand.

A couple of 2 bedroom untits from 148 sqm to 200 sqm i could rent 3 years ago for between 40-55 (high season)Low season Between 35-45

I now rent those units for between 25-30.

I regret buying so much real estate here and am somewhat embarresed but no point crying over spilt Milk Now.

On that not i shall now go out and get myself a stiff drink.

Cheers

Superior - thanks for the info. This from the source data is very interesting and backs up what many would expect but is hard to substantiate.

May we assume all the tenants are male and aged over 50? (retirees aside).

Whilst the market is likley to remain very subdued for potentially many years to come, we may see an increase in older european males looking to escape europe as they apparoach early retirement, perhaps post divorce, and this group should continue to help with new funds entring the market in small but steady increments. I can't see the Russian market supporting the long term rental or holiday home market in significant numbers.

The building on Soi one is owned by the Central family - no third party sales or leasing.

Prices and rents seem to be maintaining their slow downward spiral. Although I have met with a few mindlessly optimistic developers that seem to think that their latest condo-prison-combo will beat the trend of a decade actually make them some money...

Like many others I will not mourn the passing of the Irish theme pub. They got this idea that all you need is to paint everything green, stick a few crappy old bits of junk around the place and hang up a sign to Galway and people will flock to the place. But it's simple economics, the bigger the place and the more amenities it has (like a/c) the more expensive it is to set up and run. The more expensive it is the higher the prices have to be to cover the running costs and start paying back the initial investment. Even in a stable economic climate people are not, in general, going to frequent those places every day/night.

Now add in the drop in the value of the currency of your target customer base and boom goes bust.

It always puzzles me why people travel halfway round the world and end up going to a mock up of a pub/restaurant in their home country. A bit like back in the 60s and 70s when Spain was the holiday destination for Brits and many of them spent their time in British style pubs eating fish and chips and drinking Watneys Red Barrel.

Another line long overdue it's Darwinian cull is the Sports Bar (an oxymoron if there ever was one). A couple of big screen tv's and a few football and rugby shirts and that's about all but they whack the prices up.

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

For sports bars, I hate them, but there is a simple logic here and particularly in Thailand where access to intl sports events on local or UBC tv is non existent or not with english commentary. Its where real sports followers go to watch sports because it can not be found elswhere.

yes the process of evolution is alive and well with you!

No expert, but you have the make a distinction between the house and the ground. The house is yours, the land is the part that you lease. No need to buy the house again, but you will need to lease the ground again.

The irony is even if we rent it out at 35,000 baht per month for the next 27 years we will only get back about the same as we originally paid for it. Makes you realize renting is far better than buying in Thailand!

Renting is not better if you guys were smart in the beginning..

if you were smart you would have created a company and through that could own house/land and could easily sell the land/ house when you want. For there is no reason for the landowner to extend the lease after 30 year if you not pay him a juicy sum of money..

you guys did a big mistake, just dont do it again!

Falkan - you are so wrong, for a start the company would be illegal, and I know thare are legions of clever dick farang that think its fine, but its not, and very recently all companies set up for this purpose came very close to being govt instructed to unwind. The prospect that at some point in the short to medium term that companies set up for this purpose will once again come under the spolight is almost a guarantee and at that point panic will take over denial yet again.

A 30 year lease may at that point be better than company structure, although freehold condo tops them all.