ThaiKiwi

"Come to terms with the flood", eh? Well, we'll see about that. The person who needs to come to terms with things is the incompetent, arrogant, indifferent PM who puts in worthless PR appearances, makes inarticulate contradictory statements from one day to the next, and then is paralyzed into inaction and reaction. And, now, to top it all off, she comes out with this "shut up and put up with it" statement. It doesn't matter whether you believe in Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or Zeus, this sort of tinpot arrogance will meet its comeuppance soon enough.

It is really getting bad here and no information. My neighbor has not in his small house 15 people and 3 dogs upstair and of course the toilet does not work. And all we get is that PR bs.

If she would that "we are sorry we messed it up and we have no idea how long it will need, but we try to improve the situation" she would have my sympathy.

I saw here: a group of policemen came to stay in the villa of a police boss to protect it (they just stay inside day and night)

I hear day and night the army and you can get somewhere on a truck to somewhere and back.

Once the Democrats came and brought some care packages. But complete without promotion. If the neighbor wouldn't know them we would not have recognized them.

Where is the government, where the police, where are all the red shirts?

"No Information" you make me laugh. unless of course you don't have a radio or television or you haven't been listening to the evacuation orders distributed via PA systems from local district offices. I rather think in the last month the evacuation orders in Bangkok have been very clear. The only trouble is that although the water has been coming for so long now, still some places are dry and people don't believe that it will eventually get there. They therefore believe the evacuation orders are a conspiracy to get people out of their houses so they can be robbed.

You dropped this part of the description which puts the expression of anger in context; "We were told to come out for supplies, but there are not enough for everyone,'' one man said.

The people were not described as jeering the PM.

And who's responsible for the provision of relief supplies? He has come out to complain to the PM. He is angry because there aren't enough relief supplies. That's jeering.

There are plenty of supplies in the allocated evacuation centres. No one should expect free supplies to be delivered to each and every home.

""If the overflowing floodwater is not higher than 1 metre, I believe our 3.5-metre-high embankment can prevent it from entering the airport," Somchai said."

I find this statement alarming for a couple reasons...firstly, when he says "I believe" he's staing his opinion, not fact...wouldn't it be a matter of fact that the embankment would hold, not opinion? It sounds like he's trying to cover his ass by saying "I believe". Also, I'm pretty good at basic math and I cannot see why a 1 meter flood would threaten a 3.5 meter embankment...he said he "believes" the 3.5 meter embankment would prevent a 1 meter flood...<deleted>?...wouldn't a 3.5 meter embankment hold back a 3.5 meter flood? I'm not Thai so I'm obviously not as smart as him because i don't understand what he's saying.

With flood water 1 meter deep over 10 km in all directions and flowing in the same direction, then you might find as soon as the water comes to a flood barrier, the water level might rise a little. The water keeps coming from 10km back and your 1 meter flood front will very quickly reach 3.5 meters and then over flow. The water then stops rising until it reaches another barrier.

This whole story is wrong. The spokesperson for the US Navy confirmed that they are presently providing all the help that they can under the present circumstances and that all communication with the Thai government has been straight forward and clear.

You never know but this story might have been made up to make the government look bad.

It's strange how there is no mention of this "tap water" story in the Thai news.

It has been all over the news in the last few days regarding the colour of Bkk tap water. They decided to add more chemicals to ensure it doesn't carry any microorganisms when it leaves the pumping station.

The lack of food and water supply in Bangkok and surrounding provinces is mainly due to the superstores distribution centres being underwater. They are not set up to distribute direct from source to the individual shops. As the flood water is going to be around for a while, they really will need to sort out the logistics and supply routes if they wish to keep the stores that are open stocked with produce.

So 3 different opinions it seems, pm says bkk will be safe, govenor not so sure and now the military calling for emergency measures.

Glad to see we are all on the same page.

In other news, tide is coming back in and river is rising as expected-looks similar to yesterday.

Now why would you think that they would be on the same page??? That's ridiculous: PT is in charge, but the Dem. governor wants his party to gain face so he sits on the fence uncommitted, and (of course) the military want to be in charge again with their puppet PM...

I guess you wouldn't know sarcasm if it slapped you in the face?

Yes, PT is in charge and making an incredible mess of things. Science minister screams "EVACUATE", Justice Minister says "Ignore that moron", and PM goes off to cry. Yeah, PT really inspires confidence in their handling of this crisis... NOT!

I'm glad to know that the authorities in Bangkok are not relying on PT to protect the city.

Thai Military is already doing a lot to evacuate people, distribute aid and fortify and protect flood barriers. They could do more, but PM refuses to declare a state of emergency.

Shocking incompetence and zero accountability.

TiT :jap:

If you are going to quote some one then give them the decency to make the quote as realistic as possible. The Science Minister did not in any way at all say "Evacuate". Not in Thai or in English. He made a very middle of the road statement saying that a certain area might get flooded. It was a vague and when it was mentioned to a group of people who were eagerly waiting for a statement saying evacuate or don't evacuate, it was inferred to mean "evacuate".

Is there by any chance Southern Thailand will be expecting a flood this very coming 1-2 months? I got mixed answers from the local people. No one is 100% certain. Anyone care to shed some light on it ?

From experience with floods in the south over the last 25 years, the answer from me would be that it is quite likely that the south will get some flooding. It could be on a very small scale or it could be serious. I don't believe that there is anyone who can actually tell for sure but of course, there are some that will say they know one way or the other.

The obvious simple thing that could have been done and could be every year is to release water from behind dams at an earlier point rather than wait until everything is full and then release huge deluges all at the same time

I wonder who would guarantee that the rains are actually going to come?

Often the dams never get to completely full during the rainy season. From memory, I believe this is one of the first times in a long history that all of the dams across the whole country have reached capacity in the same year.

so is 1 mtre expected, or worst case scenario? , very conflicting!, nd if i knew there was going to be 1 mtre of water, i would panic , as it would damage my house and endanger lives !

also, if one floddgate is breched, how many more will brech?

with such conflicting reports from different agencies who appear not to be speaking with each other, i would prepare for the worst, better safe then sorry

I am wondering who you would like to answer the question "How many more will breach?" If they knew that then they could probably tell you for certain what parts of the city or even the entire country are going to flood.

They build the temporary flood banks as best they can as quickly as they can and as high as they think they need to be. Of course some times they get it wrong. They underestimated 2 or 3 months ago just how high the floods were going to be this year and they underestimated how long they would last.

Well go on then, tell us, if it's that easy? Add in a couple of variables about not knowing how much additional rainfall there may be, and how much the tide will rise on the 17/18th, the fact that all the flood water does not conveniently flow into the Chao Praya and stay there (it has a tendency to break out every now and then and flood other areas) I don't think it would be that easy, but what do I know, I'm not an expert, neither I suspect, are you.

At best a very rough estimate of how high the water level will be. There are many unpredictable variables in Meteorology. I second your thought and add:

It is easy to spout a sudden "feeling" or a compulsive opinion that make some people feel good and important when demeaning others, without backing up that opinion with solid facts or incontrovertible data.

Those people who "demand to exercise freedom of speech do so to make up for the lack of Freedom of thought, which they refuse to practice."

Soren Kierkegaard

:jap:

The subject is not meteorology, it is hydrology, quite a different science, and as the relative departments here have both the experience and multiple flow gauges giving them up to the minute information, peak levels should be quite predictable in both height and arrival time.

As a power station operator in the Hunter valley (NSW) it was critical than we access as much fresh water as possible during periods of high flow. We had computer programs that would take data from a limited number of metering stations on the 2 rivers that joined upstream, plus input from the river authority of any unusual conditions. Localised rain had to be quite heavy and long duration before it was even considered as a factor.

As we were extracting up to 500Ml/day, and the salinity of the water was important, timing of high flow arrival was essential - I have never seen an estimation more than 10 mins out. the system here is admittedly more complex, but flood gates will not usually be operated without consultation, and a dyke breach would only lower downstream peak flow.

As well as freedom of thought, you might also consider freedom from information.

You also have to consider here that the water front is hundreds of kms across. It includes dozens of canals and virtually all have overflowed banks. Canals are taking water from one river and loading it into another e.g. Chaophaya to Tacheen. They don't have a sophisticated computer system for this operation of controlling water gates because it isn't normally that sensitive an issue. The major flooding we are seeing now isn't so much because of the rising water levels but more to do with flood banks breaking after the water levels have been high for so long. Bangkok will be the same. An additional rise in water level of just say 20cm might be the difference between dry feet and 2 or 3 meters under water.

I strongly believe they will rebuild those flood banks in the rivers along the Chaopaya up to Nakhon Sawan to be more permanent and much stronger in the future.

It might not be so easy in Bangkok but they still have the option of building more and larger diversions around Bangkok to save the city from peak water surges during times of high tide.

Now I am in the Nakhon Pathom (Mahidol) area and am beginning to worry since they are taking the water from the Chaophaya river and sending it down the Tacheen River so the flood water will come in from a different direction.

Well Mike: I watch the Thai news and mostly it's this: live coverage from Ayutthaya and updates about yesterdays happenings - with the usual fixation of numbers in this case how much the water has risen in flooded areas.

Very little on where they expect flooding in Bangkok. Very little in terms of interviews with somebody of authority who is willing to tell people what they want to know = where / when will the flooding hit next.

But you notice the majority of Bangkok is still free of flooding. It is only the areas that are outside of the flood protection area that has been hit. The flood water from the north is already here in Bangkok and passing right on through to the sea without much of a problem for the most of Bangkok residents. There are a few local exceptions when you get heavy local rain but it is generally pumped away quite quickly.

Ayutthaya is only about 100 km away and it has been flooding there for weeks. There has been a lot of water pass through Ayutthaya and it has already reached the sea. It is true there is still more to come but it still will not cause a big problem in Bangkok until it meets with the high October tides.

Yesterday I was in Chachengsao and they told me it would flood a little today as they are sending water out from Bangkok along Klong Sansap. Today I was there again and true enough, in the low lying areas along the river there was flood water coming out to the middle of the road.

If there were not a lot of people with high expertise working behind the scenes presently and also over the past decades, the city would already be under water.

Just seen a video from Reuters that states an estimated 7 Billion Cubic Meters (Yes BILLION) of water is heading towards Bangkok!!!! Holy Crap!!!

http://uk.reuters.co...deoId=222361051

I know I've seen somewhere the installed systems can only handle 1 Million/day.

I hope the numbers are wrong.....

Actually, 7 billion cubic meters doesn't sound like that much. Flow rates in the Chaopaya around Chainat are around .3 billion per day. It is all heading to Bangkok and could take a couple of weeks to get there. So you might multiply this by 14 and you are not far from 7 billion in just one river alone.

There is an awful lot more water that isn't in the rivers flowing at various rates all heading towards Bangkok.

Now there is also a lot of various elongated routes that the water can be diverted around to extend the time it takes to reach the sea.

Traditionally, the long term flooding problems in Bangkok are related to tides. Those tides are particularly high during October so definitely problems if you are outside of the flood protection areas.

This year seems to be much worse as the water just keeps on coming with no easing of the flood situation way up river around Nakhon Sawan so it will definitely be a long time before it all recedes and we are getting very close to those tidal problems.

From past experience in Bangkok, I doubt that the central areas of Bangkok will have much problem other than a few hours of flooding after heavy rain. Just long enough for the pumps to catch up. Those full canals are released at each low tide so full canals might be deceiving unless the heavy rains coincide with high tides.

At least she has the candor to not point any fingers and focus on the natural threat element. She could just as easily behaved like a lot of whiners on this issue, and said the government is doing its best [given what it has as its resources] ...

Now would be a good time to pour dye in the waters and take area snapshots from a helicopter and see where the colored water flows in its drainage course. Yellow and blue would be good. And where it's green the twain meet. Target the largest known flow areas. This would certainly help in answering drainage route question for when the solution gets to the "plan of action" phase.

Another good plan of attack would be to form a research group on the term, "hydrostatic pressure" and the consequences that arise from ignoring it when dumping thousands of tonnes of dirt on top of water tables and swamps without creating a drainage outlet.

The reason one could give to anyone complaining about the cost of doing it right the first time, is that for 50 years the Thai powers have been spending over and over to do it again and again and again.

Perhaps they could then send the group out to where I live, and explain drainage to the jackass that built a large, two story building behind my house, and dumped thousands of tonnes of dirt into the swamp without installing drainage pipes. Now when it rains, water floods through the seams in our foundation and flows all over our floor tiles. Just one example of the uncontrolled stupidity and lack of conscientiousness of one's own actions and how those actions affect others, the future for others.

Hydrostatic pressure is a law, and the Thai people don't seem to respect that law. Now the law is having its indomitable say. It's got nothing to do with a human being (a PM in this case) being responsible.

Yet she is, in fact, acting the part, and doing what she can in the face of the mistakes others have made, and the physical laws that are exerting their indomitable influence upon the people for their ignorance and greed.

Isn't it funny how some people can always find fault in others when they don't think too much about reality.

Dyeing rivers: I don't think there is much misunderstanding as to where the main flows of water are flowing. Even the Thai reporters are pretty good at letting everyone know which rivers are overflowing which banks. Of course, chaos comes when two rivers running south and less than 100 kilometers apart both over flow their banks and the water races in from all directions to swamp the Asia Highway at Bangpahun but detailed knowledge of river flows still isn't going to help that one. Ayutthaya is a town half encircled by the biggest river in the country so it isn't surprising that when it floods that this area is going to flood too. No amount of dye is going to solve that problem. The roads are probably their best bet as barriers to flooding but when they are up to a meter underwater then there is not much they can do except wait until the rains stop and the water goes and then build the roads another couple meters higher.

You know, the rice farmers in this area are wonderfully served by the irrigation dykes and canals so they can farm rice virtually all year round. The only way that could happen is if they have good knowledge of the water flows. Not an issue really.

Water tables: With regards to putting dirt on water tables. I doubt that that will change much. Water tables are usually under ground any way and so dumping a teaspoon of dirt of a billion tonnes of dirt isn't going to change the water table much. Drainage pipes might be a different story but when the water table is higher than the drainage pipes then you have other more serious issues to deal with. I am sure the Thai urban development guys could help you out on that with the detailed knowledge they already have so they probably don't need to do much "additional research" as you suggest.

Laws and Science:

Hydrostatic pressure is a measurement rather than a "law". I think it is measured in Pascals after that guy Pascal.

Hydrostatics is more of a science of fluids which are say "static" or not dynamic.

Maybe you were thinking of the science of fluid dynamics rather than fluid statics.

Anyway, I don't think it would relate too much to the poor guy that went and built his dream house. They are not usually the people that plan urban development and drainage systems. I am sure the people who issued the building permits would be more up to date on those sorts of things. Now if there was no building permit then it is a simple task for you to go down to the local authorities and put in a complaint. Some authorities are very helpful in this regard if you go about it the right way. I notice the appropriate authorities are also advertising on TV these days that the process of requesting such building permits and property surveys have been simplified and that service around the whole country is state of the art.

PM:

I am just wondering if the government could not be doing more for all those people in areas that they have known were going to flood for a week in advance but they cannot even get handouts of drinking water. It seems from the news reports and a recent visit to central Thailand that all the hand outs that they are getting are coming from caravans of cars and pickups from television stations and private companies in Bangkok. Surely they could get the army out of Bangkok and up country with vehicles that can negotiate the flooded roads to distribute supplies to those thousands waiting for help.

Okay, that is my bit for the day.

Firstly I suggest you really confirm the cause of your symptoms. There are many causes of lower backpain and if it really is lower spinal lumber stenosis then it could be confirmed with a CT scan or MRI scan as these scans show if the nerves are actually being compressed from lumber spinal stenosis.

Does the pain reduce if you are learning forward? If so then it is a strong indicator that nerves are being compressed but relieved when leaning forward.

Because lower spinal lumber stenosis is a physical condition sometimes caused by arthritis or the wearing out of bones, I would seriously wonder if acupuncture would be a viable cure.

There is plenty of information on the Internet you can find with a simple google search so if I was you, I would do some research yourself and then compare all you read to what you already know about your condition then start asking the professionals.

Everybody i spoke to here in thailand voting for Yingluck

Same here! People on this forum been so out of tough with Thais I am sure 90% live overseas but are experts.

The next thing they will say everyone was paid to vote red

Well my wife was paid to vote red. They promised those that drove vehicles back to the provinces would get more but she drove but still only got 300.

I guess the local distributor pocketed the rest.

I won't say if she actually voted red or whatever but she did take the money.

Agents are not always a rip off. I get my tickets Air Asia Hatyai - Bangkok tickets through an agent just because it is convenient. The prices are the same as online and they search through the options to find the cheapest deal. I can use any credit card or pay cash. They also arrange the pickup van to take me to the airport which I take for convenience too.

The study into the recent earthquakes in NZ also show that the second quake was on a completely different fault than the first one of last year.

Regarding the price of Tuk Tuks, I think the price he was refering to does not only include the Tuk Tuk but also includes the license plates which are very expensive.

When you are buying a taxi, you also need to buy the license plates and these are expensive too. If you buy a taxi without plates and a Tuk Tuk with plates then the Tuk Tuk is going to be more expensive. It would be good if someone could shed some light on the actual cost of plates for both Tuk Tuks and Taxis.

I did it today with most documents in English without a problem.

I have never been asked for marriage photos and wasn't asked for them today either.

Now the 30 days wait but I have confidence... over 20 years experience with this and don't worry at all these days.