stevotoo

I don't understand this forum.

Why are people replying to posts with nothing to say but a few lines of insults. They reply to a post with already photos on it and 4-5 reply. and we have to look at the same pictures now on every post on the last two page.

Can they chat together in a chat room on here. Photos can show anything. One shot on TV of a rally panned away at the end of the clip and there were less than 20 people there in multi-colourds in some other city.

Guys, photos can show anything and nothing. It is all propaganda and we better hope it is resolved by some more sensible people than we see on tv (both sides) now.

I am interested to hear more views or both sides and reasoned debate.

It is called polarization

it happens when both sides stop listening to reason and choose to believe whatever dogma they choose to believe in the absence of genuine and reliable 'news'

it is the last stage before total chaos

There is no Thailand if the government can't disperse a mob of 6000 armed rebels occupying an important district of the capital. No, it is not a game. It is about the very existence of Thailand as a nation. This is civilization vs. anarchy. Would the red thugs be tolerated for weeks in your country? You say yes? I don't believe you.

Good Point Jingthing, how would this be handled in let's say Holland?

It would never be necessary in Holland- people are enfranchised, well-educated, they have removed the priviledges of title and inheritance, they receive sufficient pay for their work, have more than adequate health care and welfare provision and have plenty of Heineken.

Thako proxy party seats won: 233

dem seats won: 165

so how many voted for his party after the Coup??

Nobody voted...

well maybe 280 people did. I'm not sure.

Actually, now that you mention it.. The post coup elections played out like this for party list MP's given a total of 480 seats in the Lower House. Which BTW is who votes for the PM, and NOT the people. Oh and another thing, ALL the current MP's were voted for BY THE PEOPLE to be their representation.

Anyway, it breaks down like this;

PPP 310 (Samak) (PPP had NO stand alone majority or if they did why did they form a 6 party coalition)

Democrat Party 165 (Abhisit)

*5 MP's votes unaccounted for*

After Samak was axed for the "cooking show fiasco" the MP's voted like this for PPP's Somchai;

PPP 298 (Somchai) (AGAIN PPP had NO stand alone majority as a party but formed a 5 party coalition)

Democrat Party 163 (Abhisit)

*19 MP's votes unaccounted for*

After Somchai was axed Chaovarat became caretaker PM, as he was the "last man standing" (even though the constitution stipulates that the Prime Minister must be a member of the House of Representatives, and sadly Chaovarat was not. ..)

Then there was the FLIP of banned politician Newin Chidchob and his "Friends of Newin" group who defected from the Redz. The MPs that flipped came from various and sundry political parties but it is interesting to note they also came from the For Thais Party (Puea Thai, the successor of the PPP), the former Chart Thai Party, the Thais United National Development Party, the Neutral Democratic Party, and the infamous "Friends of Newin" faction of the former Peoples Power Party sided with the Demz. Those 32 MP's which Newin controls are the linchpin to the whole equation which gave the Demz the majority in a vote of MP's which looked like this:

Democrat Party 235 (Abhisit) (Demz also had NO stand alone majority but formed a coalition with the Friends of Newin Group MP's)

PTP 198 (Pracha Promnok)

*47 MP's votes unaccounted for*

There could be and probably is a margin of error in the numbers as they obviously don't add up to 480 each time and a person might ask why didn't an MP vote for PM..

I still can't find why 47 MP's votes in the last go round of voting in the Lower House are unaccounted for. It could be dubious googling, or bad information, but I found the numbers on a few internet sites.

That's the good bad and ugly of the Lower House voting which lead to where we are today boyz & gurls.

Carry on with your armchair political punditry <sic>, it's interesting to say the least.

The unaccounted for MPs are probably the red card receivers and disqualified from office -most of which were PT...

This is Thaksin's response on those stickers:

"Those who are behind this act do not have a good intention to the country and want to widen the social divisions. They are also engaging in tax corruption,"

I sh!t you not.

The fact that the stickers have only appeared in Silom makes me wonder whether they are meant (indirectly) for the army- a rumour spread by word of mouth after someone found out what it means- that Thaksin wants to head a republic, might serve to discourage 'watermelons' from changing sides

1) the military coup written constitution is more favourable to the government

2) there are no free and fair elections in Thailand (The old and new elite buy the patronage of the Nai who then instruct the Phrai how to vote)

3) The government would lose the election and the new government could then select the new army leadership thus making subsequent coups more difficult

4) No one seems to respect the results of elections- if the reds win, the yellows protest; if the democtrats form a government by 'influencing' the coalition parners, the reds come out

5) Everyone is so entrenched in their own dogma and constrained by their own loyalties, dialogue and compromise are not even a possibility

Pretty spot on.

It's a national crisis - he needs a mandate - or the Thail people will never forgive him - he does not have a mandate and if he sends these guys in and it gets bloody it can spiral - why is he so frightened of an election? come to your own conclusion - it's obvious.

He already has a mandate. He has the mandate of the Democrat MPs and all of the coalition partners. Together they represent well over half of the population of Thailand.

This includes many 'ifs and buts'

if you recognise and accept the constitution under which they were 'elected' (actually they came a distant second)

if you believe the coalition actually believes the same thinngs as the government and is not being pressured/bought off

if you add the total number of votes won by the democrats and coalition partners, it is still less than half of the population

if it were not for ifs and buts, cow sh*t would be butter

the best/only way to get a mandate is by winning an election

we can let the government decide

we can let the army decide

or we can let the people decide

which one is best?

1) the military coup written constitution is more favourable to the government

2) there are no free and fair elections in Thailand (The old and new elite buy the patronage of the Nai who then instruct the Phrai how to vote)

3) The government would lose the election and the new government could then select the new army leadership thus making subsequent coups more difficult

4) No one seems to respect the results of elections- if the reds win, the yellows protest; if the democtrats form a government by 'influencing' the coalition parners, the reds come out

5) Everyone is so entrenched in their own dogma and constrained by their own loyalties, dialogue and compromise are not even a possibility

Pretty spot on.

It's a national crisis - he needs a mandate - or the Thail people will never forgive him - he does not have a mandate and if he sends these guys in and it gets bloody it can spiral - why is he so frightened of an election? come to your own conclusion - it's obvious.

You can only get a mandate by winning an election with an overall majority- It is very unlikely for the Democrats ever to have a mandate

A mandate also suggests that the people are giving responsibility to Parliament to carry out the electors' wishes. For this to have any meaning, the political parties would have to present policies with which the electorate agree. In Thailand the political system revolves around loyalty (forced or not) to individuals rather than values (which seem sadly lacking)

Top Army, Navy Units Readied For Red-Shirts Dispersal

If this happens I fear the Red -Shirts may disperse temporarily only to regroup and then begin an all out armed insurgency. Many could die and the country be plunged into Iraq-like chaos. Why not just bring back the 1997 Constitution, hold a free and fair election and respect the outcome of that election? I fear we have only seen the tip of the iceburg of the madness that could occur.

1) the military coup written constitution is more favourable to the government

2) there are no free and fair elections in Thailand (The old and new elite buy the patronage of the Nai who then instruct the Phrai how to vote)

3) The government would lose the election and the new government could then select the new army leadership thus making subsequent coups more difficult

4) No one seems to respect the results of elections- if the reds win, the yellows protest; if the democtrats form a government by 'influencing' the coalition parners, the reds come out

5) Everyone is so entrenched in their own dogma and constrained by their own loyalties, dialogue and compromise are not even a possibility

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

This is very subjective.

I only fly about once every few years, so I do not care if PAD shut the airports of not.

However I shop at least twice week, so closing airports is less detrimental to trade and tourism than malls. To me at least.

Guess what, my favourite mall is Gayson Plaza.

And your shopping for luxury goods is more important than anything else?

surely you are INCORRECT in your assertion that "there has been no media crackdown except that media guilty of incitement". 1000s of websites have been shut down!

Just a note that even before this began, and for many years now, hundreds of thousands of websites were blocked and redirected to static ICT warning site.

I can't remember when exactly that has started. It's a long time ago. Anyone remembers?

With great flourish, on Feb. 2, 2006, the Minister of Information and Communication Technology in the Thaksin cabinet, Sora-at Klinpratoom, proudly announced the grand plan to block 1,000,000 websites deemed "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" and that they would be shut down "in a few weeks."

He said that the government was coordinating with CAT Telecom to install software capable of blocking all these "undesirable" websites.

...and to read FreedomDude speak of "1,000's"

1 000 000 probably includes this forum

If I am the commander, I would:

1. Drop a dozen of their best snipers on the roof top of surrounding building via helicopters.

2. Aim and shoot both legs of all the RED leaders (not to kill them, just wound them).

3. Airlift the snipers out.

4. Repeat from step one to three, everyday, at 8am & 6pm when evryone (including the RED) will have to stand up for the national anthem.

Since the legs of the RED leaders are injured, they have to go hospital, nearest of which is the police hospital. The police can then arrest them there will they were receiving treatment.

Does anyone think this is a peaceful way to end the standoff?

In what way is shooting people a peaceful solution?

Looking at the pictures posted recently, some of the pics dated 16th. I can't believe some of the idiots still have their babies at this demonstration. Is it they're idiots or don't care? When the military goes in will the brave red leaders have these people as their "shock" troops? ie these are the ones that wil be used to shock the western media.

Maybe the babies also qualify for payments!!

Well no matter which side of the political fence you are on you have to admit that the need for "elite" "special forces" "commandos" "US trained SEAL units" etc must mean

that we have an unusually high caliber group of protester here. In the rest of the world protesters are dispersed by the local police with tear gas, maybe a bit of water and in exceptional circumstances plastic or rubber bullets. Maybe this will set a whole new standard for the animal rights, enviromental, anti seal hunting, anti fur wearing, anti G7/G8, anti everything groups around the world. Beef up those special forces units budgets quick. Raging Grannies demanding pension increases-..sent in the SWAT teams...

No- I think it means they can't rely on anyone else to do it

it is all detrimental-- these are symptoms not causes

Unlike 1992, almost everyone now has digital cameras and vdo cameras so there is no hiding it anymore- it would not be possible to cover their tracks in the same way. Dialogues continue in ways they can no longer control and the whole world watches

Yes- and i don't think the long term effects are something that can be predicted or solved- this story will run beyond a crackdown an election and everything else

It would solve nothing for the government as they need to hang on for the military reshuffle- that is what it is all about really- lose the army and they lose the game

The fact that they have to resort to 'top troops' from three branches of the military suggests that they cannot depend on the rank and file soldiers in the rest of the military-

House preferably detached

Rama2 Bangmod / Bangkhuntien up to 12000 b/m

Email removed per forum rules, please PM, location and budget added to the body text.

Maybe all convicted protesters of all colours and corrupt politicians and civil servants should be sentenced to public service digging canals and observed like Academy Fantasia

They probably cut the extra people out of a red shirt demonstration to make that look smaller, and then switched red to brown in photoshop

Nelson Mandela was called a ''terrorist' before he became a 'freedom fighter'; the IRA and Yasser Arafat were 'terrorists' until they became part of the 'peace process', Stalin was a 'revolutionary' until he became a dictator A rose would smell as sweet by any other name- and so would a fart.

The whole story is a series of contradictions:

The government calls itself ‘Democrat’ but has little interest in true democracy

Parliament is supposed to be sovereign, but there are greater powers than the elected government

Many people, although they know there is great injustice in society, continue to support a regime that has perpetuated this injustice for ages

The reds have a vaguely socialist position but are sponsored by a dictatorial capitalist

Most people are loyal to feudal style individuals, or neo-feudal overlords on the other side, but few base their support on principles

Farang seem to base their loyalty on ‘principles’ when principles play a small part in the ethos of both sides

They all claim to be peaceful, but as with any large group of people, there are factions who are not peaceful -each group is judged by the actions of these minorities and is tarred by the same brush

The solution relies on the rule of law- but few seem to respect the rule of law

The army has been made responsible to end the crisis but cannot completely depend on their own troops to support their position

The police are being asked to carry out their instructions without a concerted will to do it.

The media probably want to report the news but are muzzled by the government

There is no room for negotiation as there is no common ground

Can you believe what you read? Probably not

Can you believe what you see? It probably depends on who is showing it to you.

Can you guess what will happen? Probably not, as it depends on the decisions of individuals who probably haven’t made them yet

Can you see how it will end? I’m not sure it will ‘end’

If the government resigns they will lose the election, if they lose the election they will lose their favorable constitution and their control of the army, and the yellows will take to the streets; if the government doesn’t resign, the protest will continue; if the protests continue, it will result in a clampdown, if there is a clampdown, it will deepen the divide. If there is a clampdown but the rank and file army does not respond to its instructions then who knows...

The respective numbers are immaterial.

The important point is that the parliament is the product of military coup and military interference .

Therefore undemocratic and illegal.

Can only be reset by elections.

It is true to say that this parliament was elected under the constitution written by the military government. It included some gerrymandering which resulted in fewer seats in the NE.

Ummm there was no gerrymandering. There were not fewer seats in the NE. The parliament seated today would have been seated onder the 1997 constitution. The results would have been the same.

What IS true is that had the PPP dissolved parliament even the last day before they were disbanded then they could have had the elections that people are calling for now. They didn't. Their coalition partners dumped them .. the rest is just them crying because they lost their coalition.

On the contrary, the number of MPs in the house was significantly reduced by the military constitution.

The respective numbers are immaterial.

The important point is that the parliament is the product of military coup and military interference .

Therefore undemocratic and illegal.

Can only be reset by elections.

It is true to say that this parliament was elected under the constitution written by the military government. It included some gerrymandering which resulted in fewer seats in the NE.

the reds do not have the university STUDENTS. Its hard to imagine a successful insurgency without them in any country. The problem is they have no moral authority. None whatsoever. They have no coherent ideology except bring back Thaksin. And now their other violence inspiring leaders.

If the UDD signed up a Korean boy band the students would be there to a man