intothefuture

Why and how can the Red Shirts continue to say that the Men In Black were not "with" them? I don't need an investigation to know, no one does. I saw the live video clips of the men in black walking around behind the red shirt barriers talking and cajoling with the red shirts. They were the red shirts armed guard. There is no dispute, no question. It is fact.

I think the Truth for Reconciliation Commission did a pretty good job, given the extreme polarization of the politics in Thailand. If they had cleared Abhisit government completely, the red shirts/Phuea Thai would have gone bizerk. So, I think they needed to put some blame on government for innocent unarmed civilian deaths. But...in truth...in any civilized society...If you have a demonstration with armed demonstrators who have killed police....there is no more guilt on the part of the police or military if they take armed action. I am a pacifist, but this is just basic laws of all civilized lands. You can't have a demonstration which includes violent armed guards killing police and then blame the government for taking violent action to quell the demonstration. IMHO

Also, what's with Thaksin...talking about there needs to be justice for those innocents killed at a "peaceful" demonstration. Why doesn't he explain why its ok that he killed 73 innocent demonstrators from Thai Bak (sp?), by piling them all on top of each other in closed up vans and driving 6 hours to Sri Thamarat. Many of those gathered up and killed like cattle, were truly by standers, just watching the demonstrations. That was one of the most atrocious crimes of police I have ever learned about. And this was Thaksin.

I think the report sounds very real and clarifies a lot, subject to further detailed reports. Don't know why the comments above criticize what appears to be a real break in the case. The family understandably doesn't want partial information out right now. If the story that was leaked is true, this may be a murder (2nd/3rd degree, or at least a case of manslaughter). I highly doubt it was intentional. The police are probably trying to track down who gave the girls the drinks, and don't want to scare off witness and potential informants. Seems smart to me.

DEET is an insecticide/repellant. Yes, its been used for many years all over the world. But it comes in many strengths...from about 5% to 100%. You can buy it in many different strengths in the local pharmacies here in Phuket. From the early leaked reports...there is a pparently a drink fad now where you add Kratom leaves and DEET to a mixed drink...to get a bigger high. One would suspect that someone made the drink and put way too much DEET in it...so that it became lethal. The girls probably had the drinks....felt sick...went back to their hotel...got sicker...vomiting (as already reported)...but thought they were just badly drunk. But....apparently they took in a lethal amount of DEET...and sadly died in their room. One has to wonder about the cases on PP two years ago. There was also the conjecture on the part of investigators that those were caused by toxic substances...possibly insecticide...but everyone thought it was the hotel cleaning crew overusing bug sprays in the rooms. This now seems much more plausible. Does anyone know about this fad of mixing DEET, Kratom and mixed drinks....which is now reported to be popular on PP Island? I think this is a very real break in this case and the previous unsolved cases on PP.

As an American Citizen, I am embarrassed by our US government's groveling at the feet of Thaksin.

The fact is that he is a convicted criminal, who jumped bail. That is a fact. And there is no way under US law he should be granted a visa...unless higher ups in the Immigration Dept approved it and told the lower grade officers to give him a visa. Despicable in my view. He has no right to enter our country. He is a convict. He was tried by the Thai judicial system, not by the coup makers. His wife, with Thaksin's written permission, was given the special right to buy a huge tract of valuable government property near Suvarnabhumi Airport, just before the government auctioned the land, at a huge discount. Classic corruption....as was Thaksin's arrogant style. Those were the types of things that got him thrown out of power. His buying his way back into power.... by funding huge sums of money to Puy yai bans, Orbortors, MP's, etc through out the northeast and north....is common knowledge...not even disputed. But the US government decides to play sides and act like this was just a political prosecution and a political injustice. Embarrassing...for me.

Don't let little things like facts get in the way of your discourse there - you can't even get where the land in question is right.

There was no 'special right' to buy the land let alone a huge discount involved. The bid from Pojaman was higher than the Land Departments valuation and also was higher then the other two bids received from Land and House and Noble House. Also there was the issue of Article 4 of the National Counter Corruption Act which states that the accused must directly supervise the damaged party when at the time the FIDF came under The Bank of Thailand.

The focus of my comment was that is is embarrassing that the US gave Thaksin a Visa. Yes...I had the Land location wrong, mistake accepted (insert: Ratchadaphisek Rd). But your "facts" are clearly selected for impression. Why not mention that the first real auction was cancelled? I wonder why? That is how Pojaman got her chance to put a bid in. Not Important fact? The real point here is "that Mr Thaksin had violated Articles 100 and 122 of the NACC Act which states that government officials, including prime ministers and their spouses, are prohibited from entering into or having an interest in contracts with state agencies under their supervision." Those laws exist in many contemporary societies, where you try to keep the family of the government officials from buying land from government agencies. Pretty basic law to prevent corruption. You needn't try to re-litigate the case, especially one that has many hidden details. Point is that Thaksin was found guilty by Thai courts, he is a convicted criminal, and he jumped bail. The US should never have given him a Visa...period.

As an American Citizen, I am embarrassed by our US government's groveling at the feet of Thaksin.

The fact is that he is a convicted criminal, who jumped bail. That is a fact. And there is no way under US law he should be granted a visa...unless higher ups in the Immigration Dept approved it and told the lower grade officers to give him a visa. Despicable in my view. He has no right to enter our country. He is a convict. He was tried by the Thai judicial system, not by the coup makers. His wife, with Thaksin's written permission, was given the special right to buy a huge tract of valuable government property near Suvarnabhumi Airport, just before the government auctioned the land, at a huge discount. Classic corruption....as was Thaksin's arrogant style. Those were the types of things that got him thrown out of power. His buying his way back into power.... by funding huge sums of money to Puy yai bans, Orbortors, MP's, etc through out the northeast and north....is common knowledge...not even disputed. But the US government decides to play sides and act like this was just a political prosecution and a political injustice. Embarrassing...for me.

The earlier comment is right. Be very careful. Thai law is the same in Bangkok and in Koh Chang...don't believe anything different. Use an attorney. If the lease is more than 3 years it must be registered with the land office. This will also clear up any risk of who is the chanote title holder (or nor sor sam/nor sor sam khor). You need to be certain the real owner is giving you a real lease. Also make sure that the bungalows are legal. Check with the Orbortor office to make sure their are permits for the resort structures. Then also check with the Puyaiban (the village chief) to see if there are any other problems with the resort... or if it is functioning properly, obeying laws and has no disputes with neighbors etc. You need a Thai attorney to help you. Otherwise you are just risking your money with no assurance of what you are getting into.

He will stand forever, and will win the next, and next, and next election.

He will be our PM until the day he dies.

For that to happen, he first needs to win an election.

The only election he's stood in for PM so far he's lost.

Who? What are you talking about? I see you're new, but make a comment the rest of us can understand....

I don't see how it is hard to understand.

Abhisit so far has only participated in 1 General Election, the Thai General Election of 2007:

Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

Samak won the election with 233 seats. Abhisit came in 2nd with 165 seats. We all know what happened after, with the coalitions and everything. That's not the point.

The point is that Abhisit has never won a General Election. That's what I meant in my original post.

Makes sense now?

No. Doesn't make any sense. Thailand's democracy is parlimentarian. PM's are not elected by the general public. The parliamentarians are elected and they elect the PM. Just like England.

Puea Thai won 36% of MP seats....not enough to win the election. Democrats won 30% of MP seats...neither were enough to WIN the election. Puea Thai was able to put together a coalition...but after Samak and Somchai were individually ruled ineligible to be PM...Puea Thai could not hold their MP's together..... Bhumjai party pulled out...and joined the Democrats. And the new coalition, with over 50% of MPs....voted in Abhisit. All done by the legal and democratic election laws of the land. Abhisit and Democrats now lead a coalition that represents more than 50% of the duly elected parliamentarians. Puea Thai..without Bhumjai...could not get 50%.

Make sense now?

Very interesting article. Given that there is a lot of evidence that the men in black were a real group operating behind red shirt lines, the details in this article certainly fit fairly well with what others have claimed. True, it could be exaggerated, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's a fair amount of truth in it. After all, someone had to have the guns and weapons on the red side. It does seem rather ridiculous of them to be so open about everything with 2 foreign reporters. But, I've long ago learnt that nothing in Thailand should surprise me too much!

I agree that this is a convincing article. If these two guys submit to questioning and written testimony to the CRES or DSI, which I think they should do...then this is very big news. We have all (except those with blinders who don't want to see) known that these men in black were shooting guns and grenades at the police and soldiers, but these are first hand witnesses. I hope they come forward or are subpoenaed and provide testimony. This and all the videos of Arisaman and Nuthawat screaming from the stage for the red shirts to burn down Bangkok...make the Puea Thai censure vote against the government's use of force...a pathetic journey into fantasy. It also gives a chill to think about Thaksin's statement last week that the Red Shirts "might start taking guerilla actions against the government". Funny how Thaksin and his cronies always talk about something "might" happen...then it happens....then they deny involvement or inciting the actions taken.

im quite amazed and saddened by the state of debate on this forum. and to be honest, the way most of the commenters on here act, shows little compassion or hope for reconciliation. You can spout your contempt and vitriol of all things red, and vice versa, and nothing will change. Not attempting to understand or forgive or change is why after many thousands of years of human existence people are still killing each other over bullshit. Its not enough that 80 people have died. its not enough that 75 of them were the red shirt protestors...now you want to blame them for shooting there own suporters, reporters, medics....its really pathetic. There were firefights going on, people were killed. unarmed people. its fuc_king sad. is that not enough? the army did some unreasnable things, the reds did some terrible crimes when they new the game was up. This operation was 2 months in the planning. the videos of those leaders saying they were going to burn down bangkok were available months ago. i saw them...and the thai government didnt? they had no soldiers guarding bangkoks most expensive piece of real estate? pathetic handling of this whole even. why the fuc_k were they even allowed to protest anyway - they were operating with impunity it seems, and the government could of stopped them before they became entrenched. as soon as you start seeing a situation as complicated as this from only one side, you have lost. and things will continue to get worse, and if you cant see that then youre blind.

As someone who lives in the area occupied by the reds I want to confirm the truth in the post. Both sides were pathetic.

The protesters set up an armed camp, the police stood by and watched it, and when all hel_l broke lose both sides went at it with complete disregard for anyone caught in the middle. Homes, business, property and lives were destroyed by angry protesters and also by over eager undisciplined soldiers. My friend's apartment door was blown off by soldiers' shot guns "looking" for reds, and then they ate food out of his refrigerator because as they told him later "we were hungry".

Believe me, the last thing on the either side's minds during this conflict was medical personnel, or anyone else other than themselves for that matter.

These posts move into arguments back and forth on who did what and is there proof.

But what is certain is that the Reds had 1.armed agents amongst them, using guns and m79 grenades (how much is irrelevant) 2. The Red Shirt movement was NOT peaceful. 3. No matter how many "good", regular, folks were amongst the Red Shirts....once any Reds started using weapons....the entire dynamics changed...and any peaceful protesters should have left immediately and not participated in mob violence.

The Reds simply cannot blame the army and police. In the USA and most countries in the world, if there is a demonstration...if even one person shoots a gun. It's all over, the police tactics dramatically change....And at that point...any non violent people should simply disperse and not be part of an armed mob. The decreasing numbers of demonstrators did show that many Reds did leave, when it became violent (after April 10th confrontation). But many didn't leave....and this made it very difficult for the government and the army and police. The army and police are also young Thais...they don't want to die. They don't want to kill....and they don't want to be shot by snipers or blown up by a grenade. But they had a job to do. And the government waited for another month, in spite of the enormous cost to Thailand, solely to avoid unnecessary loss of life and injury.

If Reds, or Yellows or anyone in Thailand is going to be part of a demonstration...they must decide if they are going to use violence (in which case the police and army have the right to use armed force to disperse them) or be a true peaceful demonstration, which takes more guts and conviction. Some of the Reds, certainly their leaders, certainly Seh Daeng and his black shirts...decided to make this a violent demonstration. I suspect, but cannot prove, they were ordered to do this. (I am still waiting to see a video of Mr T actually telling them to use violence..I haven't seen one yet.)

You can argue for ever... about how the police and army should have and could have done this or that.... but you will not get the UN, or any other country to back up the demonstrations of the Reds now that it is clear, from video clips that the Reds had armed people amongst them, shooting at the police.

I personally have been in many demonstrations in America...for civil rights, for nuclear disarmament... and I would never, never have participated in a demonstration that had armed people shooting at police... Never.

All the deaths are sad....But I do place the blame on the Red Shirt leaders for leading a violent demonstration and leading all these poor people who died...into their deaths. I have listened to the Red Leaders screaming at the red crowds to burn down Thailand. That was true terrorism. It scared me just listening to them talk about burning down all those buildings and telling the protesters in the north east to go burn their provincial halls. (Who is to blame for the 10 dead bodies found inside the charred Central World). I personally don't like military or police power...or over use of it... But.... there is no country in the world that will allow a demonstration to continue with armed participants (who have killed police or military when the police and military tried to disperse the crowds) and not ultimately go in with force and disperse and arrest them. As far as the police not protecting the Central World etc... I think this is very simple... the police and soldiers did not want to die. There were snipers and people shooting grenades. The police and army were also frightened...after April 10th...they stayed close together, behind barricades...trying to protect themselves. The were not out wandering around in areas controlled by the Reds or exposed to random violence. I cannot fault them for this.

Peace is only going to come back when reds, yellows, blues, all color shirts...commit to non violence. You can demonstrate and topple a government with non violence. But non violence is not just a PR concept...it is not just in word only. If you demonstrate peacefully, which the Reds had a right to do, and use civil disobedience, then you must pay the consequence of being arrested and thrown in jail. That is part of a non violent protest movement. Having armed red guards shooting at the police is just mob violence. It may seem right to some to blame the police and army, to say that they could have used less force...but I don't really see how.....and in my opinion the Reds have lost any hope of international support. They will have no international backing, other than an occasional swipe at the army and police for not being more careful....like Amnesty Intern. The world now sees clearly that the Reds were armed and dangerous. The government and the police will not be condemned internationally....only by the Puea Thai and Red Shirt leaders...and Mr. T himself will blame the government for the aftermath of a violent mob protest.

Peaceful movement? Not.

" Some mutual respect of secular humanism, a recognized definition of my world view, would be welcome.

One thing you didn't say was that you'll pray for me which you of course are free to do if it might make you feel any comfort or solace. You seem so wrapped up in the 12,000 year human emotionalism of mystery worship and spirits that you could give the impression you haven't any significant regard or respect of science and its new order of rationality. I did say that in its time, place and circumstance Buddhism once was rational (despite its primitive minded predicate of a spirit roaming the universe deciding to park itself on planet earth...my god that's another zany origin tale.)

As with many others, I do sometimes engage with spirits of a different kind if you know what I mean . "

To Publicus:

I respect your right to any world view that you find meaningful. I don't respect your demeaning and mis-characterization of Buddhism....especially in a Thai forum, which has many Buddhists as readers and commentators. Buddha's teachings...not the popularized version of them...are born of introspection, discernment, compassion and are markedly aligned with modern science and quantum physics....and are equally meaningful and applicable today as the were 2500 years ago. Your comment about a "spirit roaming the universe and deciding to park itself on planet earth" has absolutely nothing to do with Buddhism. Buddha did not teach about spirits...but about Non-self... a reality beyond thoughts and concepts of spirit or individual self. Please consider refraining from commenting on a subject, sacred to many, that you have made zero effort to understand. I wish you well...but suggest you don't need to bash Buddhism in your effort to understand life and universe.

This is not a New York Times "editorial." This is an invited "column" with a "By-Line" (By Karuna Baukamsri).

We musn't confuse the two because the difference is significant. An "editorial" is unsigned, placed on the Editorial Page, written on agreement by the Editorial Board of a newspaper and, as with Supreme Court decisions, written by a single Board member who is designated by the Board. An "editorial" is an instiutional statement.

The written piece above and others like it with a By-Line constitute a personal statement - a column - by an individual person. In this instance the piece is a "guest column" because the writer is not contractually employed by the newspaper. The Editorial Board of the particular journal has agreed to publish this guest column, whether by invitation or after being approached by the individual writer.

That said, Buddhism is literally irrelevant to the developing sectors of Thai society. A central tenent of Buddhism is to purge one's self of desire, a practical and valid point 2,500 years ago (or 100 years ago in Thailand) as most humans everywhere on the planet had nothing and were going to spend their short miserable lives with nothing. So why want? Why desire material things? You're subsistence life is just that so accept it, run the farm and be happy.

For the past 15 or so years however the country has begun significantly to develop its economy, particularly (since 1980) industry and more recently a service/consumer economy. Buddhism offers nothing to the contemporary neuveau rich and/or to the middle class concerning wealth creation, wealth management, distribution of wealth, modern consumerism etc. Hence the gross mismanagment of the country's newly developing wealth and the ineffectiveness of its institutions to include government especially in directing, managing, distributing the new wealth and the means to create and acquire it.

It's also telling that the guest columnist points out that in 1992 Thaksin was manning the money train while she and all of the other current players whatever their views and activities were fighting the military dictatorship of the particular time. She also points out that many of the major players irrespective of shirt color have managed to acquire fat bank accounts and wealthy personal estates.

Ms Buakamsri would do as well to call on a spirit house as to invoke yet another petrified religion as guidance through the present mess.

Wonderful article by Karuna Buakamsri...with real insight and real questions for us all to consider.

But this response from Publicus shows us how materialistic people respond to spiritual and caring insight. What a sad and pathetic response by Publicus. I feel sorry for you. You appear to be spiritually empty of soul and spirit...and attack someone with genuine insight and care for their fellow Thais. Your effort to show this was not an editorial from the NY Times is meaningless. The fact that the NY Times printed this article shows they have more insight as a media organization that Publicus does as an individual.

Your attacks on Buddhism show shallowness and lack of any spiritual understanding. Sad that you must convey your spiritual numbness on this website. I agree with a previous comment. Go spend some time at a temple or spiritual dwelling of your choice. It will do you good and perhaps spare others your cynical perspective on life. I believe there are many Thais like Karuna Buakamsri who will pull this Country thru, in spite of those that have lost all moral and spiritual bearing like Publicus.

For those interested, Karuna Buakamsri's Op-Ed article in the NY Times can be found at: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/opinion/...html?ref=global

...The problems in Thailand now have more to do with the country going thru growing pains in becoming a mature democracy. There will always be politicians and power brokers trying to "game" the system. Like it or not....But the best way forward is, and will always be, for all sides to embrace democracy fully, warts, blemishes, abuses of process and all. Little by little...by adhering to Rule of Law, backing up the courts rather than criticizing every decision, pressing forward on reforms to assure that each person has a vote, trying to catch and make it more difficult for politicians, of all parties, to buy votes; calling out politicians who place friends and family members into positions of authority (cronyism), police upholding rule of law...allowing all persons to express their views and gather in a PEACEFUL manner...etc. This is the ONLY way forward...it is not pretty. It is not cute. It won't happen overnight. But if all Thais commit themselves to democracy and the eradication of all efforts to undermine it....over time, a better, more complete and more fair democracy will unfold here in Thailand.

A PR campaign emphasizing all Thais commitment to Democracy, Democratic process and Rule of Law...will be more impressive to the leaders of other democratic nations...than simply providing a smile campaign....though smiles are always good .

Actions speak louder than words. Instead of talking about Democracy, Abhisit should call an election. Use an international monitoring group so there aren't any questions about its fairness.

The timing couldn't be better for the government. They can capitalize on the Red Shirt's disarray.

Respectfully disagree. This is exactly what Not to do. All Thais, of all political persuasions must start following the law and not have coups, nor have elections based on mob rage. By law, Abhisit is the duly elected prime minister, voted in by the majority of MPs who were voted in by a free election in 2007. The next election is in about two years. Those that don't like Abhisit's policies, or the policies of his coalition government, should work hard for the next two years to prepare for the election and use their votes, not rebellion, to democratically elect the MP's they favor, who in turn will elect the next PM. That is Thai Democracy and it should be followed. Griping, as some do, about unfairness of the courts or process...doesn't help. Calling a snap election in response to violence, doesn't help. It just allows both sides to justify not following the law and constitutional electoral process.

We are in the middle of a Chinese turf war. Some people allied one way, some people allied another. Some people paid more, some people didn't pay enough. The last great piece to land, after a great man passes away.

I really hope people would have the time to actually read some book about SE Asia and understand why 75 to 90% of the wealth of SE Asia is in the hands of so few. It is because, under the guise of democracy they have made or bought slaves of the politicians and their constituents.

Some thoughts: Perhaps it isn't just an ethnic or religious turf war. Remember that Gen Sonthi was a Muslim? Are you really thinking that so many Thais in the military backed him up because of his religious and ethnci background? The mix of races, religion and ethnicity runs right thru Thai Society. To try to see it all as one race or ethnic group or religious faction...against another.... does not appear to be the real cause of conflict. Yes, there are divisions, there is racism, there is ethnocentrism, there is elitism in every country in the world.

The problems in Thailand now have more to do with the country going thru growing pains in becoming a mature democracy. There will always be politicians and power brokers trying to "game" the system. Like it or not....But the best way forward is, and will always be, for all sides to embrace democracy fully, warts, blemishes, abuses of process and all. Little by little...by adhering to Rule of Law, backing up the courts rather than criticizing every decision, pressing forward on reforms to assure that each person has a vote, trying to catch and make it more difficult for politicians, of all parties, to buy votes; calling out politicians who place friends and family members into positions of authority (cronyism), police upholding rule of law...allowing all persons to express their views and gather in a PEACEFUL manner...etc. This is the ONLY way forward...it is not pretty. It is not cute. It won't happen overnight. But if all Thais commit themselves to democracy and the eradication of all efforts to undermine it....over time, a better, more complete and more fair democracy will unfold here in Thailand.

A PR campaign emphasizing all Thais commitment to Democracy, Democratic process and Rule of Law...will be more impressive to the leaders of other democratic nations...than simply providing a smile campaign....though smiles are always good .

The letter did nothing to change anything. It was just some nobody on the internet making wild accusations without any evidence to back them up. Do you really think the BBC and CNN change their coverage because some nobody on the internet posts a few links to Youtube?

You are really a piece of work!....my response:

1. The Letter was in fact received by CNN, together with many similar criticisms...and collectively they did have an impact. That is a fact. (You are sadly misinformed if you really think the MSM is never impacted or lead by the blogosphere, when MSM reporting is inaccurate?)

2. "Wild accusations" in the Letter... "Wild accusations" is what you are doing. And therefore you cannot differentiate between an opinion letter and a letter filled with references and actual video clips that speak for themselves. The text of the letter was really not the point...the point of the letter were all the references and video clips which did show that what Dan and Sara were saying on CNN was one-sided.

3. Whether as a result of the Letter and others like it....or just because Dan and Sara "saw the light" on their own...the fact is that CNN and all western media began providing better and more accurate reporting...stating that the Red Shirts were armed, that the military was facing grenades and rifle fire, that Thaksin was a major factor backing the Reds, and that the Red Shirt leaders were inciting violence.

The open letter concerning alleged bias was totally debunked in the following article:

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...e-really-biased

Some of the posters here seem to think that the international news media should just parrot the Thai government in the same way that the Thai media does.

Debunked? Not really. Different view maybe.

I will say that The Nation does appear somewhat biased.

I recall one piece of BBC video footage where some old red shirt biddy was quoted as saying " all we want is democracy". Next time it was translated as "we know what's happening"

Sorry, but I just do not trust the BEEB anymore

Truly amazing how twisted things and people get. The "debunking" by BP did nothing to change the import of the letter. BP seems to be a true a--hole....and misses the whole point of the letter. The letter was meant to provide CNN with ample information to show both sides. You could not possibly be watching CNN International and be not be pissed off, unless you were a Red Shirt supporter. Period. BP going point by point trying to discredit the letter was a ridiculous waste of time with no purpose. The letter is not trying to be an opinion letter. It is trying to say that there was ample information on the internet and from other news sources that show that trying to present the Red Shirt movement as a "poor helpless innocent people vs the armed and dictatorial government" is a one sided presentation. The letter did its job. And CNN and BBC both, as a result of the letter, and as a result of other criticisms received by CNN, dramatically changed their reporting to a much more even sided presentation. THe BP "debunking" reads more like a self serving obsessive trying to show how smart he is. Go to the Letter itself...go to the references and clips...and you cannot end up missing the point that the Red Shirts were an armed and dangerous mob, inciting violence. The rampage that took place after the Red Shirt leaders surrendered have perhaps now made the Letter mute...because everyone, all media, all governments, now see both sides of the story; everyone knows the Red Shirts were armed and out of control. The government did not act perfectly...but they were facing a dangerous threat in the form of an armed and dangerous red mob, who surrounded themselves with misinformed elderly, children and women led on and incited by the Red Shirt leaders.

Articles like this are written by those who don't really understand the basics of good journalism. A lot of Thais live in a fantasy world where what you see on television represents an absolute truth. All CNN, BBC and other news organisations did is report from the ground and present both sides of the argument. Because this balanced approach conflicts with simplistic absolute truth of good guys vs terrorists presented by the Thai media, a lot of Thais believe "The Truth" can be found on their little Thai television programmes and "Lies" is found on the "foreigner television".

Sorry "edwardandtubs"...but I have to respectfully disagree with you.

CNN and BBC, in the opinion of many, began their coverage of the protests, with a preconceived image of "poor rural Thais fighting for democracy against the military and elitist backed government"....and their stories all seemed to promote this view. Dan Rivers and Sarah Snyder provided a very one sided look for most western viewers. If not for Thai TV and Thai Facebook bloggers....and in fact, here in Thai forum...CNN and BBC might have continued this. But there was an enormous reaction to the news being put out by these two mega giants of media, CNN and BBC. They had completely missed the point that Thaksin started these demonstrations to recapture his money and power and that he was funding the Red Shirt movement. They also downplayed the existence of guns, grenades and snipers amongst the Red Shirts. It felt like Dan and Sarah were trying for awards like those won by other journalists covering past battles of the repressed against their dictator run governments.

Enough of my opinion... for those that really do care about the media coverage of the Red Shirt demonstrations...and want to see a professional letter sent to CNN that actually tipped the scale, made Dan Rivers have to explain himself to his bosses...and caused a course correction by both CNN and BBC such that more balanced coverage began....see this link:

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215387.

The Letter includes a long list of references to other accurate news reports, and many links to video clips showing what was actually happening.

If you go to the link you will also find in the comments under it a very insightful letter from Somtow Sucharitkul, a world acclaimed Thai musician and author.

Articles like this are written by those who don't really understand the basics of good journalism. A lot of Thais live in a fantasy world where what you see on television represents an absolute truth. All CNN, BBC and other news organisations did is report from the ground and present both sides of the argument. Because this balanced approach conflicts with simplistic absolute truth of good guys vs terrorists presented by the Thai media, a lot of Thais believe "The Truth" can be found on their little Thai television programmes and "Lies" is found on the "foreigner television".

Sorry "edwardandtubs"...but I have to respectfully disagree with you.

CNN and BBC, in the opinion of many, began their coverage of the protests, with a preconceived image of "poor rural Thais fighting for democracy against the military and elitist backed government"....and their stories all seemed to promote this view. Dan Rivers and Sarah Snyder provided a very one sided look for most western viewers. If not for Thai TV and Thai Facebook bloggers....and in fact, here in Thai forum...CNN and BBC might have continued this. But there was an enormous reaction to the news being put out by these two mega giants of media, CNN and BBC. They had completely missed the point that Thaksin started these demonstrations to recapture his money and power and that he was funding the Red Shirt movement. They also downplayed the existence of guns, grenades and snipers amongst the Red Shirts. It felt like Dan and Sarah were trying for awards like those won by other journalists covering past battles of the repressed against their dictator run governments.

Enough of my opinion... for those that really do care about the media coverage of the Red Shirt demonstrations...and want to see a professional letter sent to CNN that actually tipped the scale, made Dan Rivers have to explain himself to his bosses...and caused a course correction by both CNN and BBC such that more balanced coverage began....see this link:

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215387.

The Letter includes a long list of references to other accurate news reports, and many links to video clips showing what was actually happening.

If you go to the link you will also find in the comments under it a very insightful letter from Somtow Sucharitkul, a world acclaimed Thai musician and author.

I would like to add to my above comment......that if you go to the link: http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215387 at the bottom, in the comment section, there is also a letter written by the world famous Thai musician, writer, opera composer, Somtow Sucharitkul (S.P. Somtow)... addressing in a non emotional, factual style...what is really going on here with the Red Shirt movement. It is very informative for Thais and Farangs.

Funny, the degree of sympathy posters here have for the Red Shirts appears to be reverse proportional to the number of their posts and the time they have been members of TV.

I can't prove it, haven done the statistics, so just an impression that we have a lot of new members, who joined TV specifically to defend the Reds. Wonder how much one gets paid to invade the Internet in defense of Thaksin and the Red Shirts.

Someone else noticed the same?

I agree with you that there are a lot of Red Supporters now throwing out a lot of misinformation and "righteous indignation" on these forums right now. I do believe that these are not just citizens and interested parties sharing their views. Many are planted to "steer" the conversation.

Lets get a few facts straight:

1. The Reds were openly admitting they were armed, they were proud of it, and initially did not try to hide their weapons.

2. There are video clips showing reds and their black guards using assault weapons through out the past two months.

3. Caches of weapons have been found through out the past two months...including the motorcyclist carrying dozens of m79 grenades near Don Muang. (M79 grenades look like large bullets, but explode like a grenade when hits its target.)

4. The grenades launched on April 22 into the counter protester "all color shirts", residents of Silom, killing one and injuring dozens of others, came from the Reds camp, in response to the All color shirts telling them to leave.

5. The Red Leaders called on their followers to "Burn down all of Thailand" as can be seen in clips on internet. (see link below).

6. The late Seh Daeng was proud and openly proclaimed that he had an army with weapons and was using them. He often announced before grenade attacks that there would be an attack, then it would happen, then he would brag about it.

7. When the police and army tried to disperse the "non violent" Reds on April 10th...they were met with sniper fire and grenade attacks. One senior colonel was murdered and other police killed...as well as were protesters as the police and army responded to incoming live fire. After that...the government, nor anyone, needed proof that the Reds were armed and using live fire in response to any police/army effort to disperse.

8. There are video clips of black shirts amongst the red shirts firing those weapons.

9. The final toll is not yet certain but around 80 people died...11 were police or military. In most countries if even on gun is amongst the protesters...and absolutely if one police officer is shot....the police and military would respond with overwhelming power, regardless of loss of life on the protesters. Murder of a police officer is a capital crime (death penalty) is most countries. Abhisit used his intelligence and care in dealing with the Red Shirts....he waited them out...until only 2000 remained...then within a few hours they disbanded...but not before a vengeful rampage against all citizens and guests of Thailand...a preplaned attack with fire on the city. Please note that 10 bodies were found in the charred remains of Central World...this is arson and murder...punishable by death in most countries...and was ordered by the Red Shirt leaders (see clip reference below)

Conclusion: No one who is honest can say the Red Shirt movement was non violent, peaceful demonstration using democratic means. It was clearly an armed rebellion (acknowledging that they filled their ranks and files with large numbers of "followers" who were unarmed, because elections (they couldn't win more than 36% in last election) and non violent demonstrations did not work for them.

Information:

For those that care about the truth...and are not just on line here to try to spin their story... take a look at this professional letter to CNN International, that is filled with clips of Red's using weapons, links and references to full information on the armed rebellion of the Reds and showing how CNN, BBC and others fell for Thaksin's misinformation campaign: http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215387 (Thai and English language)

Then look at this clip of Red Shirt leaders telling their followers to burn all of Thailand:

The truth is available for those interested. Otherwise it is just misinformation campaigns going on in these forums. The famous line: "You are entitled to your own opinions...but not your own "facts"."

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Are you a complete idiot? They were used..for two months...not only against the police and military, but against innocent civilians. The Red Shirts have been shooting M79 grenades almost daily. Have you not been reading or watching any news clips of the Red shirts using these weapons. Don't put comments on this site if you are completely ignorant of information that all of us have been reading and watching about daily for two months. On April 10th when the government first tried to disperse what were supposed to be peaceful red shirt demonstrators...thats when we all found out that they were armed to the teeth. A senior colonel was murdered and many other killed, including the Japanese news man. The Red Shirts shot m79 grenades into the crowd of local residents who were vocally demonstrating against the Red Shirts at Silom. The list goes on. We are just seeing the remains of the weapons not yet used and that they could not hide before the army arrived.

I guess if the Gov can make a terrorism charge stick with irrefutable evidence it might lead to an international arrest warrant through Interpol. (evidence additional to the statements from Verra and SD that is)

It is a reminder that Thaksin, sitting in his room with the shades drawn , may think there is still a chance to win if he can do this and that and maybe ,maybe. He is a obsessed guy who has just torn up millions. If rumours are true , he could expect a call from Boris any day soon.

If any of you have the time or interest you might dig through the interview below with Thaksin while he was still in charge in Thailand, in the Q&A section he is asked about Asian democracy and he states Democracy is what you make it ,that China and Vietnams systems might be better suited to Asians than other styles and he says you do what you need to do to stay in power and keep the masses happy.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11482/conve...ervice_inc.html

Thanks for good post.

For those that want to read the PR spin coming out of Thaksin's law office at Amsterdam and Peroff: http://chicagopressrelease.com/press-relea...is#comment-7797

And for those that really want to understand what is going in Thailand...read this professional letter to CNN International criticizing their reporting and providing many links and clips to provide clear understanding.

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215387

CNN.doc Zeze Na Pombejra: Open Letter to CNN International

Dear Sirs/Madams,

Recently, CNN Thailand Correspondents Dan Rivers and Sarah Snider have made me seriously reconsider your agency as a source for reliable and accurate unbiased news. As of this writing, over thousands of CNN's viewers have already begun to question the accuracy and dependability of its reporting as regards events in Afghanistan, Haiti, Iraq, Iran, etc., in addition to Bangkok.

เร็วๆนี้ ผู้สื่อข่าว CNN ประจำ ประเทศไทย แดน ริเวอร์ และ ซาร่าห์ ซไนเดอร์ ทำให้ดิฉันต้องกลับมาพิจารณาอย่างจริงจังว่าข่าวของสำนักข่าวของคุณเป็น แหล่งข่าวที่เชื่อถือได้ มีความถูกต้อง และไม่เอนเอียงไปข้างใดข้างหนึ่งหรือไม่ ในขณะที่ดิฉันกำลังเขียนจดหมายฉบับนี้ มีผู้เสพข่าวของ CNN กำลัง ตั้งคำถามถึงความแม่นยำและแหล่งข่าวในการนำเสนอเหตุการณืที่เกิดขึ้นใน อาฟกานิสสถาน ไฮติ อิรัก อิหร่าน เป็นต้น .. เพิ่มเติมจากการเสนอข่าวในกรุงเทพมหานคร

I want to thank you for putting together this very professional letter to CNN. As I watched Dan Rivers and Ms. Snider giving their reports over the past week... I found myself infuriated. Clearly they were both looking for an opportunity to boost their careers thru reporting in a "danger zone". But their sensationalism and one-sided approach...actually may have caused more injury and death to Thais, on both sides of the conflict. CNN is looking for ratings....and having reporters "embedded" with the protesters who are "fighting against an oppressive regime" is entertaining for their viewers. This is sad. Thank you for the very tedious hard work putting your letter and addendum together. Bravo to you.

In that case by your reckoning the Red Shirts have the next election in the bag.

"majority" = Reds = "Wins".

Like it or not they are the majority and just because you don't see everyone who supports them walking round with red bandanners doesn't mean they're not there.

Wrong..... Red Shirts = lost the last election = sore losers.

In 2007, free and open election....red shirts (Puea Thai) only got 36% vote. But they still formed a coaltion govt with other parties. After their first two choices for PM were removed on technicalities...they still controlled the govt thru their coaltion. BUT....Newin/Bhumjai withdrew from the coaltion..legally, per democratic process...and formed a new coalition with Democrats and other parties....who had the MAJORITY of duly elected MPs. The government of Abhisit is the duly elected government. Any attempt to deny this is anti democratic. Period.

Red Shirts - Puea Thai... will not get more than 20% of the vote next time. The country is sick of their violence and anti democratic bully tactics...incited by the most corrupt PM in Thai history....megalomanica Thaksin...the butcher of Tak Bai.

What like appearing on a cookery show is unconstitutional? Maybe a polititian giving flowers to burns victims in hospitals should be made unconstitutional too as that sort of good will gesture gets broadcast and is also PR.

Well see!

Jirapa....Do you really not understand? The removal of Gen Samak (who order the murder of the college student protesters two decades ago) and Thaksin's brother in law Somchai...may or may not have been correct court decisions.... I actually think the cooking show business technicality was lame. But this is not why Thaksin/red shirts/Puea Thai lost power. You, like most red shirts, refuse to accept the Truth. When Newin/Bhumjai party..legally withdrew from the Puea Thai coalition and called his former boss Thaksin to tell him he was finished trying to bolster Thaksin any more.... the Bhumjai part joined the Democrat party and others that held a true majority. They formed the new government with their coalition legally, by due process of law. The Abhisit government is the legally elected government of Thailand. The Puea Thai and Thaksin couldn't win more than 36% two years ago...now their support has plummeted. You like all red shirts refuse to accept that you lost, fair and square...and so now resort to violence, mayhem and destruction of other property. Red Shirts = Thaksin = losers = game over.

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well writen article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............

In that case by your reckoning the Red Shirts have the next election in the bag.

"majority" = Reds = "Wins".

Like it or not they are the majority and just because you don't see everyone who supports them walking round with red bandanners doesn't mean they're not there.

Wrong..... Red Shirts = lost the last election = sore losers.

In 2007, free and open election....red shirts (Puea Thai) only got 36% vote. But they still formed a coaltion govt with other parties. After their first two choices for PM were removed on technicalities...they still controlled the govt thru their coaltion. BUT....Newin/Bhumjai withdrew from the coaltion..legally, per democratic process...and formed a new coalition with Democrats and other parties....who had the MAJORITY of duly elected MPs. The government of Abhisit is the duly elected government. Any attempt to deny this is anti democratic. Period.

Red Shirts - Puea Thai... will not get more than 20% of the vote next time. The country is sick of their violence and anti democratic bully tactics...incited by the most corrupt PM in Thai history....megalomanica Thaksin...the butcher of Tak Bai.