intothefuture

Come on - you didn't need to be a phophet to know what was going to happen. It could have been avoided if the government had moved at the very beginning - they DIDN'T - it would have been avoided if the Police and army acted earlier and decisively - THEY DIDN'T. I wonder why - maybe they feel a bit guilty about how they came to power (banning a polititian for apearing on a cooking programme, removing Members of Parliament because of a Court ruling which was rather one sided) - maybe they couldn't act quickly because they had totally failed to do anything about the Yellow folk occupying the airports and doing damage equivalent, in economic terms, to 10 Central Worlds. The Government and the cabinest and the officials have handled this badly - they should resign and call fresh elections - OOPPs maybe that is what they should have done at the beginning to make them legitimate - maybe having the guy who ran the Yellow protest movement in charge of Security wasn't a very good idea. Maybe assasinating a rebel general with a sniper shot in the head was something that made folk just a little p'ed off.

If the current Government stays on after this it will have no authority - if the current military planners and commanders stay on after this they will have no respect - If there is not a major change in how Thailand is run after this - the country it will have no regional respect and if these required changes aren't public and universally acceptable to all the population - Thailand ain't going to recover from the damage this has done to the country's image. 24 - 7 on BBC and CNN. People are asking why is there so much anger in the Land of Smiles. Ask yourself

You are spewing the same hate and lies that blasted from the stage the last two months..inticing the crowds to violence...generating all the damage and death to Thais of all parties, all walks of life. This is hatred and lies; has nothing to do with Democracy.

Abhisit is the duly elected Prime Minister of Thailand by vote of the people in 2007 who elected the parlianmentarians whose majority elected him as PM. Abhisit showed tremendous poise, intelligence and moderation in every step he took...under tremendous pressure from all sides.... And now Abhisit has a chance to bring this country together...unlike Thaksin, who you are supporting...who divided this country, abused its laws for personal gain, satisfied his craving for power and money, and abused human rights...Tak Bai....2500 extrajudicial killings.

No. Kevin... you are wrong.. Thailand will now be able to build out of this horror show put on by the Red shirts....and realize that all "people power" is not the same....when gatherings become violent...they are just mobs...mindless..harmful mobs. And we all watched the Red Shirts as they lost whatever trace of legitimacy they had...watched it fade in the flames they wrought on, not just Bangkok, but all of Thailand. Thaksin is now over. He may have some death throws politically....but he is over. The 36% he garnered in 2007, has plummeted. And he will become a pathetic figure, begging for foregiveness from the Thai Authorities, in the near future.

I think the reds are basically peacefull, but Abhisit always changes his mind saying I will desolve parliament and organise elections, the putting all this on hold!

How can anyone trust him?

I would get violent too

Abhisit has to resign if he wants peace back in Thailand!

Tinom...you are either completely uninformed...or a troll..on a misinformation mission... Abhisit doesn't have to call new elections or dissolve parliament, because a violent mob says so. That is not Democracy. You are either a fool..or brainwashed by the Red Shirts misinformation campaign, paid for by Thaksin. Very simple....The Reds have one purpose....put Thaksin back in power. Its nothing to do with democracy or peaceful assembly and freedom of speech. This Red shirt movement has been about power, violence and forceful overthrow of the current duly elected government. We had a free and fair election almost two years after the coup. Thaksin's party Puea Thai couldn't get a majority, and then couldn't hold its coaltion government together. FACT: A majority of parliamentarians, duly voted into office by free and fair elections in 2007, by an election of the people of Thailand voted Abhisit into office as Prime Minister. Thaksin and his party lost the last election and couldn't hold a coalition together...so the opposing members joined together, forming a majority, and voted in Abhisit. This is how it is done in England, as we just saw. What if the Labor Party, stormed 10 Downing Street and took over central London, demanding a new election...then killed police officers and army sent in to control the vandalism and growing violence. What if every time the London special forces tried to break up the unruly and illegal taking of public and private property...they came under grenade, rife and gun shot from within the protesting Labor Party

Don't anyone say this is part of Democracy. Thaksin and the Puea Thai Party were voted out of power by the people of Thailand. And Thaksin doesn't like it...and will pay anyone to help him get back into power. But the Thais voted him OUT fair and square.

for christ's sake would people please begin reading and understanding? it doesn't matter whether or not anyone 'innocent' has been killed. the thai army is shooting live rounds in areas where there are its own unarmed citizens. this is a massive breach of UN human rights laws.

how the hel_l are people not getting this? it's not complicated.

for christs sake- the people are in fire zones- and they are fire zones because the reds have barricaded themselves in- invaded neighborhoods - or do you think these places all had stacks of burning tires and drunken idiots firing guns before the reds got there? If the army wanted to kill unarmed people, thousands would be dead, not less than 100. It is so unfortunate that innocent people have been hit - but blame goes on the reds who brought this on. This is not complicated- no red invasion and takeover of neighborhoods, no shooting into these places.

And please site the UN Human Rights Law that firing in self-defense and defense of public and private property is a breach of.

'not less than 100'. well there you go. human rights laws breached, innocent citizens shot at by their own government. which is the subject of this thread. whatever underhand and foul tactics certain of the redshirts have employed, you do. not. shoot. at. your. own. unarmed. citizens.

this is like talking to a 9 year old child. two wrongs do not make a bloody right.

They are not shooting at unarmed civilians, They are shooting at people who are either : 1. shooting at them - either handguns, rifles, rpg's or less lethal weapons - rockets, fire bombs, sling shots 2. lighting fires (its called arson) 3. looting 4. running checkpoints

What is so hard about this to understand- 1. they are not shooting at unarmed people- unfortunately some unarmed people have been placed in danger and hurt and yes, killed, but because of the redshirts guerilla tactics 2. There are not wrongs on each side - only one, as self defense and defense of public and private property is not wrong.

I totally agree with Netfan. SteveH...you talk like you are so aggrieved and cannot understand that Netfan and others like me, cannot understand that ...you do not shoot at unarmed citizens. Your delusion is that you think this is what is happening. This is not a peaceful mob being shot at by police (like Iran green shirts). This is a group of innocents mixed in with a wild armed violent mob armed with rifles, m79 grenades and pistols....funded by a former despot, who shoot at any officer who tries to disperse them. They have taken over two square miles and caused massive destruction of property, liberty, lives and livelihood. Yes, we all, especially Thais...morn the death of any innocent person. Those in the red shirt movement, who do not want violence, who want peaceful demonstration... have for weeks been asked to leave and separate themselves from the gunmen. Many have left.. only a few thousand are left...either hard core insurrection mobs...or innocent children, grandparents or loved ones of these violent insurrectionists. If the police wanted to just pick off civilians...if that is their order or intent...there would be hundreds killed each day. Rather it is the sad and sorrowful few who have been killed...almost always during or right after the police and army have been attacked. You, SteveH, Amnesty, and the UN...should get your facts straight. I have just spent 3 days in Bangkok and have lived here for 7 yrs. You do not know what is going on at all. Imagine Time square taken over by a violent mob, shooting grenades, rifles and guns at police who try to disperse them and at civilians (Silom, Dusit Thani hotel, etc.) You are missing what is going on here. Your concern for human life is laudible...but it is entirely misplaced. The police and army are simply and clearly NOT shooting randomly at innocent people...that is a complete misunderstanding. Are there isolated incidents where you can say that an armed official shot too soon, that an innocent was hit in error, that shots were fired in fear against incoming fire...and struck innocent people....yes.... but you should be focused on the horor being wrought by the red shirts all in the name of Thaksin...the worst of human rights abusers.

He fell or was pushed from the truck, hence knocked out/injured but not shot/dead! The same people who spread this marmite are the same people who think Abhisit was elected by the people. He was not elected by the PEOPLE. He was elected by MP's that jumped ship after the dissolution. The general public would not have voted for the MP's in the first place if they knew in the future they would have jumped ships to the current coalition. There should have been an election after Thaksin's proxy govt had been dissolved, but the powers from above did not want that. Did they???

London Thai...you are absolutely wrong. You are spewing out the warped spin of the corrupt and despotic Thaksin political machine. I suspect you are a paid Red Shirt. Perhaps paid by Amsterdam and Peroff..Thaksin's new PR law firm. Because you cannot really believe what you wrote? You just count on lots of people not knowing the truth...and buying and passing on your spin.

Just like England...the free and fair elections, almost two years after the coup...(which Thaksin's party campaigned and participated in..the Puea Thai)...in 2007, ended in a hung parliament... Puea Thai won only 36%...slightly more than Democrats .... 30%....but they did NOT win a majority. Just like England...a coalition government was required. Just like England...with the Conservatives who had the most elected parlianmentarians....the Puea Thai were given the right to try to form a coaltion. They did...it included the Bhumjai party..among others. Then the first two parliamentarian elected Prime Ministers.... Thaksin's cronie Gen Samak...the military leader of the 93 massacre of college students (unarmed) and then his brother in law Somchai...were forced to step down...not allowed to keep the PM postition due to legal technicalities (you can argue that these were questionable decisions...) BUT ....Puea Thai and its coalition still were in power...Thaksin was in power thru his party....The Puea Thai simply needed to name a new PM. And if that had happened there would be no red shirts, no protests...and Thaksin would control Thailand and speak of how wonderful democracy is here. But.....as is allowed by law...in Thailand and in England... one party pulled out of the coaltion...Newin Chidchob of Bhumjai..was finally unable to support the despot Thaksin any more...he told Thaksin he was pulling his party out of the coalition...Bhumjai's parliamentarians joined the Democrats and several smaller parties..and by democratic process...and by Thai law...formed a new coaltion....a duly elected new government containing the majority of parliamentarians elected by the people of Thailand in 2007. Over two years after the Coup. This is the truth. Period. LondonThai...If you don't like democracy...just say so... but this is how it works. And Thaksin is a human rights abusing despot and no longer the leader of Thailand...and doesn't have a majority of support here...and is inflaming armed insurrection...at the cost of lives and livelihood for all Thais. For those that want to let Thaksin's lawyers know how dispicable they are...please call or fax them and tell them their greed for Thaksin's money is damaging Thailand and instigating violence and death of innocents.

Amsterdam and Peroff in London: Phone : +44 20 3002 9980 Fax: +44 20 7488 9196

I believe Amnesty International has over reacted after been fed by mis-leading information from the RED side.

They should be invited to see first hand that only 1 solider have been killed over the last 5 days or so in Bangkok. This is a fact. I am confirm this.

I am a liberal, progressive, pacifist American. As much as I often find myself anti military and anti police power....as a long term resident.... it is so obvious that the government, Abhisit, the army and the police... are all bending over backwards to minimize loss of life...in the midst of an absolute wild chaos including many many armed protesters...who have already shown they will murder police and army personel when given the chance. I cannot imagine any western nation...that would allow violent mobs to comandeer two square miles of a city center and shoot guns and M79 grenades at any law enforcement officers who try to disperse them.....and not issuing orders for the military to simply do whatever necessary to regain control of the streets. That hasn't happened yet. If they were ordered to the Thai military and police could have overwhelmed the protesters in a matter of hours....but these are Thai law enforcement officers...they don't want to. But the funded, nouveua riche red shirt leaders...want violence...they want to overthrow the government now....that is their order from Thaksin. Elections in six months won't work for Thaksin. He needs Abhisit out now...before his money is all returned to the government coffers (is hasn't yet been actually confiscated. 1.4 billion dollars is being held and about to be transferred back to the government. Once that happens, its probably gone. These demonstrations started as a result of a conviction of fraud and the confiscation of these funds. This is not about democracy...it is about a megalomaniac doing everything he can to get money and power.

I have provided a lot of funds to Amnesty International. But they, along with many western governments, and media...have been successfully duped by the banter, led by Thaksin, that this is about a rebellion of the "people" for democracy....after a coup. Hello? CNN/BBC....there was a free and fair election almost two years After the coup....Thaksin's party, the Puea Thai...only got 36% of the vote...and after putting his crony Samak and his brother in law Somchai, into the PM's office.... even Newin of Bhumjai party...a former staunch ally of Thaksin....had had enough...withdrew from the coalition and joined the Democrats and other parties to form a new coaltion. If this government of Abhisit is not democratic...then neither is the English coalition of Conservatives and Lib Dems...nor is Netanyahu's coalition in Israel. I commend Abhisit for his sincere efforts and commend the plice and army for facing armed rebellion and showing incredible restraint.

I am ashamed of Amnestry International. And I am furious at Amsterdam and Peroff. An international law firm that for money...for greed...has taken on a convicted criminal, who fled from the law, who is funding a violent protest against the legitmate government of Thailand. This firm should hear holy hel_l from anyone who loves Thailand and is sick of Thaksin's power lust. Their London numbers are: Phone: +44 20 3002 9980 Fax: +44 20 7488 9196. I just wrote them a fax telling them what I think of them. Someone who has connections to Amnesty needs to call their leadership and ask why they are supporting a despot...Thaksin..and supporting armed rebellion.

Plazot11 said:

What a load of CRAP.

Why are the Thaksin haters so stupid ?

Thaksin has nothing to do with the current killing of unarmed civilians.

As reported on BBC News it is The ROYAL Thai Army that is killing its own citizens.

Shame on you ROYAL Thai Army. You have the Blood on your hands of unarmed civilians.

A country's Army is usually there to protect its citizens and defend its own country.

The ROYAL Thai Army is murdering its own people.

Why don't you go find a real enemy if you want to kill people.

PS Why didn't the ROYAL Thai Army kill the Yellow Shirt protesters when they occupied the Airport?

PSS. Was talking to a women who said her family was demonstrating for the Red Shirts at 100 baht a day.

They switched sides to demonstrate for the Yellow Shirts at 300 baht a day.

Thaksin is abused for supposedly paying the Red Shirts but ....... Who is paying the Yellow Shirts ??

I just love the way you say... " As reported on BBC News"

My response to this is:

It is easy to know someone who has been completely misled by Thaksin. The truth is that there were elections in late 2007, almost two years after the coup...and Thakins and his Red Shirts got only about 1/3 the vote. The Abhisit government is the duly elected government by coalition of parties duly elected by parliamentarians. After Somchai was found by court unable to be PM, the coalition of Puea Thai lost its control of its coalition of parties and Bhum Jai joined the Democrats. When Newin split from Thaksin...Thaksin lost control. All nonsense from red shirts that this government is from the coup, or that Democrats are part of yellow shirts...is all propaganda from Thaksin's political machine. It is well established that the Red Shirt leaders are being paid huge sums of money. I feel sorry for the good Isan people who have been pushed into this confrontation with the Government. It is Thaksin and the Red Shirt leaders who have blood on their hands. They could have done a peaceful demonstration...but that did not work. So now that want Chaos. It is Thaksin who will be remembered for corruption, abuse of human rights and his funding of the misinformed and greedy red shirt leaders causing great damage to Thailand. One phone call from Thaksin and this whole protest stops within a few hours. No need for UN or foreign involvement. Thaksin is the cause, instigator, funder, and inciter of violent overthrow of this government. His red shirt followers are risking their lives so he can get his money back while he sips wine from his condo in Dubai.

It appears there may be Red Shirt "trolls" amongst the commentators. Everyone has a right to their opinion...but fabricated bs is not needed. Thailand, its government and its people are going thru a very tough situation. This government is the most fair, democratic and even handed government as I have seen in Thailand and all SE Asia in the past 10 years. The government is trying to resolve this without more bloodshed...but the damage to the country, economy, innocent Thai citizens wrought by Red Shirts now demands that the protests be ended. The Western media is just finally "getting it". After two months of repeating Thaksin's "talking points".... they are finally seeing that the Red Shirts represent Thaksin and his effort to violently overthrow the duly elected government of Thailand so that he can get his 1.4 billion of ill gotten profits back and take control of the country. The next election by law is not for two more years...but the government agreed to move it up to six months just to get these thugs and their mobs off the streets...but that wouldn't satisfy Thaksin...who wants a violent overthrow of the government by his Red Shirts. The Red Shirts are the violent mob wing of the Puea Thai party..which did not get a majority, and whose efforts at forming coalition governments failed after the 2008 election..in which the Red Shirts/Puea Thai opening campaigned and championed as a free election. They...and more importantly Thaksin...is a sore loser. Abhisit is a fine and good human being..trying to guide this country peacefully. He is the duly elected Prime Minister.

If Thaksin got shot in the head the next day, there will still be "reds". This isn't really about Thaksin. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the situation. The harder the elites stamp out the "protest", the harder the reds will come back -- maybe not this year or next, but they will. They are the majority -- as the previous "real" elections have showed us... in retrospect, they are the "people of thailand".... When this all ends within perhaps the next few days, will you still be willing to wear a yellow shirt in public? How about the other places in thailand? The north... the south.. As a movement the yellow shirts are done.

Good luck in trying to put those "stupid, rural" thais back "in their place"... These people want more.. they are tired of being 2nd rate citizens... Maybe it will take a civil war for some people to see the writing on the wall. I hope it doesn't come to this, but as of now, it seems inevitable...

No one is trying to "put any one back in their place". You are just spinning Thaksin's talking points. This is not about rural poor versus Elites. Many of the Red Shirt Leaders and Puea Thai leaders are enormously wealthy. These demostrations started because the government confiscated 1.4 billion dollars of illegal profits from Thaksin. Hello? Are you completely ignorant of the facts? The South of Thailand.. from Petchburi down to Pattani....include large majorities of farmers and poor. They do not support Thaksin. He lost the vote in the South in every election. The myth of the Thai poor versus the rich Elites has some distant truth in the past....but not now....now it is just a talking point of Thaksin, spoken to incite people against this duly elected democratic government.

You guys do dream of Thaksin a lot.

He was legally elected and ouseted in a coup by the army which is illegal. No country would send him back here even if they wanted to.

Thaksin was ousted by a coup..not one drop of blood. I don't condone it, but understand that many thought it was the only way to stop the buying up of the nation by Thaksin and his megalomania. AFTER the coup....A new constitution was written and approved by the people by referendum..Then free and fair elections were held. And Thaksin's party the Puea Thai...WAS ALLOWEd to participate fully...but he did not win..they could not gain a majority. The Abhisit government is a coalition of 5 parties voted into office by the parliamentarians elected in a free democratic election. Governments around the world are slowly getting on board to keep him out of their countries and/or stop him from inciting violence by phone and video from their countries. It sad that people like you want to help Thaksin get his 1.4 billion dollars back and don't give a dam_n about his corruption and abuse of freedom of speech and abuse of human rights (Tak Bai massacre/war on drugs...2500 extrajudicial killings). And this is your hero?

You are a Red Shirt supporter...and clearly do not believe in democracy. Your comments do not address anything I said. You can cry about past coups....and the boogiemen Elites..but a free and fair election was held in 2008 in which your leader the richest Thai in the world...Thaksin.. couldn't win the majority votes after spending millions and millions to smear his opponents. Democracy is not furthered by "a new stage in Klong Toie". You and I know that Klong Toie is one of the poorest parts of Thailand. People there have a tough life....so the Red Shirts move in.. and how many innocents in Klong Toie will die trying to get Thaksin back his 1.4 billion in illegal profits.

It appears there may be Red Shirt "trolls" amongst the commentators. Everyone has a right to their opinion...but fabricated bs is not needed. Thailand, its government and its people are going thru a very tough situation. This government is the most fair, democratic and even handed government as I have seen in Thailand and all SE Asia in the past 10 years. The government is trying to resolve this without more bloodshed...but the damage to the country, economy, innocent Thai citizens wrought by Red Shirts now demands that the protests be ended. The Western media is just finally "getting it". After two months of repeating Thaksin's "talking points".... they are finally seeing that the Red Shirts represent Thaksin and his effort to violently overthrow the duly elected government of Thailand so that he can get his 1.4 billion of ill gotten profits back and take control of the country. The next election by law is not for two more years...but the government agreed to move it up to six months just to get these thugs and their mobs off the streets...but that wouldn't satisfy Thaksin...who wants a violent overthrow of the government by his Red Shirts. The Red Shirts are the violent mob wing of the Puea Thai party..which did not get a majority, and whose efforts at forming coalition governments failed after the 2008 election..in which the Red Shirts/Puea Thai opening campaigned and championed as a free election. They...and more importantly Thaksin...is a sore loser. Abhisit is a fine and good human being..trying to guide this country peacefully. He is the duly elected Prime Minister.

There is a way out for both sides. Elections. Now. And the violence stops immediately because everyone will be out campaigning....lilkity...

Response to above comment:

Why are so many foreigners confused? There was an election.....2 years after the coup...And Thaksin's Party, the Puea Thai party was allowed to fully participate, but it did not win the majority. The parliamentarians had to form a coalition government. The Abhisit government of the Democrats is a coalition of 5 parties...many of whom represent the rural poor. Thaksin and the Puea Thai and their Red Shirt mobs are poor losers and using violence and mob intimidation to undo an election that was open, free and fair. This is all about Thaksin funding thugs to lead mobs with misinformation to help him get his money and power back. The Red Shirts have armed thugs hiding behind women and children. Many police and innocents have been murdered by the Red Shirts. The Red Shirts are using the word Democracy....but are trying to violently undo the democratic election of 2008.

Does this make sense?

The Thai military leader tells the press that there are now only 5000 people holding the area of Bangkok.

So the thai military cannot push out 5000 men women and children?

The answer is that the Abhisit Government and the Army/Police want to avoid loss of life and injury. They are being shot at. Grenades have been fired at the police and army and at innocent by standers....BY the Red Shirts. While many of the protesters are women, children and elderly..brought from the rural areas. They are infiltrated with trained renegade ex militia. Any full scale effort to remove the 5000 (or less) will simply mean dozens more dead..and many will be children and women and elderly. That is why the military and police refused to force them out until the destruction of private property, invasion of the hospital and refusal to even accept an agreement to hold new elections....created such a momentum of support for the government....that the military finally agreed that they must step in and end this. But even now...we are seeing very very careful efforts to slowly force the Reds to go home. The police have the power, yes. But to just go in firing away will cause too much injury and death. The reds have guns and grenades. They are mostly peaceful, but with a violent armed group hiding amongst the women and children. The Reds are cowards. What are their demands? Nothing. Just a new election to give their boss, the criminally corrupt Thaksin, a chance to get his money and power back. But we had an election...2 yrs after the coup. It was a hung election like England requiring the parliamentarians of several parties to form a coalition. Abhisit and the Democrats have a coalition that together received the majority of the votes in a free and fair election. Abhisit is a good man, in a tough situation...facing mobs of misinformed rural sheep, led by money grubbing red leaders paid by Thaksin. Some of the women and children are being held in by the Red leaders..not allowed to leave. Very sad. Any PM other than Abhisit would have gone in and blown the Red shirts away, regardless of loss of life.