eslteacher

What do you do for a living MegaRanter, if you dont mind me asking?

You have lived a very active life so it is natural to feel bored or burned out when retiring full time in Thailand.

Try to get rid of the performance mentality of the western world and take pleasure in the smaller things in life, like a nice cup of coffee and a crispy new Newspaper.

Talking to friends is the best therapy in the world. We can meet if you are in Bangkok, you sound like an interesting character.

Bingo, alot of people overlook this aspect and don't realize how important it is. Start enjoying the simpler things in life.

There are very few honest people on this earth. It seems to becoming increasingly littered with scum.

You can't trust anybody.

Seems like exercise can really make a difference if you are low carbing, Frank. I've lost a bit of weight low carbing but now I need to kick in the exercise to try to keep it moving.

dclary, I like your blog. Looks like you've got quite a few posts. I'll have to read through it sometime.

I've been reading up on this, a lot of professionals seem to recommend far less aerobic exercise than was previously said to be beneficial to weight loss. Instead, they say to invest more in HIIT, which involves explosive motion, like walking fast and doing a series of sprints for 20 minutes, instead of running for long periods of time, or doing lesser reps in the gym and replacing them with a few heavy explosive sets.

Anyone else here doing HIIT?

Yep, Anaerobic exercise is far more effective for weight loss, fat loss than aerobic exercise. Focus on explosive, compound movements.

Brown rice may not be a better alternative. Cultures have been eating properly prepared grains with good results. But now, the majority of us do not properly prepare grains thus leaving the toxins in the grain. A few minutes of research you'd find numerous links with grains causing numerous disorders such as leaky gut, IBS, crohns disease etc. White rice has had the toxins removed thus its essentially starch. And starch is well tolerated and easily digestible by humans. We produce emylase which allows us to break down starch.

White rice isnt a health food. But its not particularly bad for you either as evidenced by numerous cultures throughout the world that eat it and eat it quite often and yet remain in good health. I'd say its a fairly safe carb source and is certainly okay to eat in small portions throughout the day.

There are many good aspects of the Thai diet. For one, they eat numerous vegetables and fruits. They eat chicken, beef, pork, duck, eggs and they aren't afraid to eat organ meats. And for the most part the food they eat is fresh and bought locally.

Unfortunately, they do eat alot of garbage as well. They cook their food in vegetable oils which oxidize (damage) under high temperatures and they consume alot of sugary foods.

Brown rice has many health benefits. Some people may not be able to digest it well but plenty can and it has lots of vitamins and minerals and is very good for the colon.

As for the diet of Thais being generally good I am sorry but I just can't agree with that.

Lots of unhealthy oils, huge amounts of sugar,fatty meats like pork very popular and you are never sure or how that food was produced and what pesticides, fertilizers etc were used.

Positives for Thai diet are the high seafood intake and fruit but I am not so sure how much vegetables the average Thai eats coz I never see that many veggies on the plate when i see Thais eating.

The problem with grains is that they aren't prepared properly contain anti-nutrients such as lectin, phytates and some gluten. Phytates for example make minerals and vitamins bio-unavailable. Therefore, we aren't absorbing the nutrients from the grains were consuming. Sure brown rice has a good nutritional profile but if we cant absorb a good % of the nutrients from it what's the point of consuming it. Especially if we don't properly prepare the grains which would remove most of the anti-nutrients from the grain. If we don't do that, not only are we absorbing the nutrients but those anti-nutrients are wreaking havoc on our body and making us more susceptible to auto-immune disorders.

In terms of where and how the food was produced. We have the same kinds of questions in the Western world. Living in a small province 2 hours north of Bangkok, I was more confident with the food quality there than I am back home. Glad to see we agree on the fact that unhealthy oils and the huge amount of sugar they consume is bad. But fatty meats are not bad, they are actually quite good for you. But, I don't think people are going to change their opinions on that, so lets just leave it at that.

If anything, we should question the quality of the seafood Thai people eat. Most people eat fish they catch from all those dirty, polluted rivers. Who knows where the fish i'm eating came from. Let's hope it was from a relatively clean body of water.

Overall, I must say the Thai diet is far better than the Western diet.

Want more energy ? stop eating Foods that rob your energy: meats, eggs, dairy etc.

Foods for health: fruits

Calorie - heat measurement. Has no meaning for the body/diet

Quality (and semi-fatty) meat, eggs, colorful veggies and green veggies, occasionally some low glycemic legumes. That's what we thrive on and survive on. They will give you energy through the roof.

Throw out the fruits, but keep the berries. The genetically refined sugary fruit like pineapple, banana, oranges, apples, etc has way too much fructose, that adversely affects insulin levels and speeds up the aging process (and makes you fat and slow). Blueberries, raspberries, strawberries (and an occasional piece of melon) are where you need to go if you want something 'fruity'. Don't overdo these products though.

Don't believe the perpetrators of the Standard American Diet (SAD) regime, and their sanctimonious guidelines for health. It is a corrupt policy and diet philosophy paid for by the heavily subsidized grain, dairy, and fruit conglomerates.

I do agree with you on dairy, to a point. Low fat and Skim milk is deadly. A little heavy cream or cheese is ok, but in moderation. I use coconut cream and coconut milk mostly though, as well as coconut oil for most of my cooking. Read up on coconut products and why they are so good for you. It's <deleted>' rocket fuel! Ttry to get organic though (it is out there, but you have to look).

Those that see my post and are in the know will know that I am into the paleo diet. I also use intermittent fasting and other timed meal tricks. It has helped me lose a ton of weight, given me a ton of energy, and my doctor checkups are outstanding. Go figure!

Your towing the party line is old news, Cameravisio. There is a whole new field of eating out there that goes against big agri-business, and is threatening the giants of industry that have brought us industrialized refined sugary starchy non-foods. Do a little reading. I would be happy to point you to all kinds of excellent literature in cutting edge nutritional news. Just let me know! You need open eyes, to open your mind!

Coconut products are fantastic. I do nearly all my cooking with Coconut oil along with macadamia oil and butter. Coconut water is essentiall natures gatorade.

You're absolutely right about the SAD diet but I really didnt want to get into too much. But what they recommend is truly astounding. Look at how the whole low-fat craze started. It really started to pick up momentum with Ancel Keys 7 country study but like the China Study it was incredibly sketchy and missing a ton of data that was conveniently excluded from the study.

Brown rice may not be a better alternative. Cultures have been eating properly prepared grains with good results. But now, the majority of us do not properly prepare grains thus leaving the toxins in the grain. A few minutes of research you'd find numerous links with grains causing numerous disorders such as leaky gut, IBS, crohns disease etc. White rice has had the toxins removed thus its essentially starch. And starch is well tolerated and easily digestible by humans. We produce emylase which allows us to break down starch.

White rice isnt a health food. But its not particularly bad for you either as evidenced by numerous cultures throughout the world that eat it and eat it quite often and yet remain in good health. I'd say its a fairly safe carb source and is certainly okay to eat in small portions throughout the day.

There are many good aspects of the Thai diet. For one, they eat numerous vegetables and fruits. They eat chicken, beef, pork, duck, eggs and they aren't afraid to eat organ meats. And for the most part the food they eat is fresh and bought locally.

Unfortunately, they do eat alot of garbage as well. They cook their food in vegetable oils which oxidize (damage) under high temperatures and they consume alot of sugary foods.

Fermented foods.

I havent read through this entire thread yet but I must say, I am jealous of the lifestyle you guys live. You guys seem to enjoy life in beautiful parts of Thailand. Cant beat that.

You guys have what im striving for. I'd love to just wake up, sit outside and have a coffee while reading a good book or newspaper while enjoying the nature surrounding me.

Want more energy ? stop eating

Foods that rob your energy: meats, eggs, dairy etc.

Foods for health: fruits

Calorie - heat measurement. Has no meaning for the body/diet

read the third post, the guy knows what he is talkin bout.

Carbs = life. No carbs = death.

Is that so difficult to understand as a mature person? Here's moar of rocket science:

Less carbs = less cals = weight loss.

Moar carbs = moar cals = weight gain.

Why would someone try to avoid carbs? There is a reason people eat food - it is Basal Metabolic Rate, which is an amount of cals burned a day, without any activities included. If u consume less cals than ur BMR is, u lose weight. Doesnt mean u dont have to eat carbs, fats and protein at all, u will die doing so. Healthy Carbs to Fats to Protein ratio is 40/30/30. Thats all to it, srsly, not a rocket science, and google+wiki is always there to help anyone.

The body is much more complex than calories in calories out. Eating grains for humans is a realtivley new concept....we can thrive just fine on colorful veggies, green veggies, meat, and eggs.

Bingo.

Exactly. Our dental structure indicates we are omnivores.

And our pancreas has a variety of digestive enzymes that are designed for both animal and plant foods.

~~~You are free to live the way you want to live. But saying its dumb to live like a Thai or close to it is beyond stupid especially when you are living in THEIR country. Nobody is saying to eat sticky rice 2x a day and live in a tiny shack but you definitely experience more of the country's culture when you "live" like a Thai.~~~

I didnt say it was dumb to live like a Thai, just that I am not Thai and I want to retain some of my own culture and heritage the same way Thai people do when they live overseas. Anyway, I live with a Thai. 5 in fact if you inclue the fact my children have Thai passports. Does that let me into your special live like a Thai club? The fact I am married to one and have children. I take it that supersedes your 'shopping at markets' live like a Thai claim?

~~~Well, its hard to say. I hung out with Thai people, my accomodation was fairly standard even for Thai standards, shopped and ate at local markets. So in that sense, yes I lived like a Thai. But on the otherhand, I had alot more money to play with. I definitely didnt live like a villager in Isaan though. I was a few classes above that. ~~~

Well I hang around with Thais who could pay your salary out of their pocket money. Guess its not any different, just that they are a few classes above you.

~~We apparently hang out with a completely different crowd. Because 32,000B in the province that I was in, was very, VERY good. It was actually more than most of the teachers at my school who have been teaching there for 25 years. So I assume you live in Bangkok and likely hang out with a wealthier class of Thai people. Because 32,000B a month in a small province, you're a rockstar. And hate to break it to you, but 32,000B living in Bangkok, you can also live like a king. I know people who are doing it right now on that wage. Of course, they aren't raising families.~~~

So you have finally realised that we are in Bangkok, and are raising families. Hallelujah! Why dont you come back when you have some real life experience of what we are discussing.

~~~In denial about what? LOL, what you on about? I'd say you can get a basic condo in or around Central BKK for 10,000/month if not less. To buy a car, hmm not exactly sure. What kind of car you talking about?~~~

Why would I want a basic condo if I can afford a house? Because in order to live like a Thai I have to live in a basic condo??? Anyway, if the basic condo costs 10,000 alone thats twice what you say Thais spend in a month in total. Lets hope your english teaching skills are better than your maths.

As for cars, why not start with all those BMWs you see people who look Thai driving round in. Failing that how about the monthly payments on a 3 year loan on a brand new Fortuna.

Okay, im not sure if English is your first language but your comprehension is absolutely dreadful. You are getting your panties in a knot over the most innocent posts. Im not even sure where to start here.

"I didnt say it was dumb to live like a Thai, just that I am not Thai and I want to retain some of my own culture and heritage the same way Thai people do when they live overseas. Anyway, I live with a Thai. 5 in fact if you inclue the fact my children have Thai passports. Does that let me into your special live like a Thai club? The fact I am married to one and have children. I take it that supersedes your 'shopping at markets' live like a Thai claim?"

- I don't care how you live. I never acted as if I was superior because I "lived" like a Thai. I have no idea where you're coming from with that. All I essentially said was that I made a real good salary for Thai standards and was able to save a good amount of money by having alot of fun. I didnt live a luxurious lifestyle on Sukhumvit, I simply hung out with Thai people in a small Thai province, ate Thai food, shopped at local food markets and drove a crappy, old manual bike. This doesnt make me any worse or better than you. Different strokes for different folks.

"Well I hang around with Thais who could pay your salary out of their pocket money. Guess its not any different, just that they are a few classes above you."

That is fantastic.

"So you have finally realised that we are in Bangkok, and are raising families. Hallelujah! Why dont you come back when you have some real life experience of what we are discussing."

I thought it was quite apparent the differences in our situation. How you didnt pick up on that is beyond me. Its laughable how you think this somehow reflects my real life experience...or lack thereof according to you.

"Why would I want a basic condo if I can afford a house? Because in order to live like a Thai I have to live in a basic condo??? Anyway, if the basic condo costs 10,000 alone thats twice what you say Thais spend in a month in total. Lets hope your english teaching skills are better than your maths.

As for cars, why not start with all those BMWs you see people who look Thai driving round in. Failing that how about the monthly payments on a 3 year loan on a brand new Fortuna."

Your question and I quote;

" How much do you think it costs to own a car and a condo in Bangkok these days?"

Once again your reading comprehension fails you miserably. When did I ever say to live like a Thai you have to live in a basic condo? Secondly, why are you still going on about this "live" like a Thai nonsense? My god, talk about an example of someone taking something completely out of context. Farang and Thai have different perceptions of what constitutes a "basic" condo. Have you been anywhere outside of Bangkok? Do you even know what wages Thai people earn? And for your information, I have a friend who teaches in Bangkok spending 6,000 a month for a "basic" apartment just a stones throw from Silom BTS.

I really dont know what it was that got you in such a pissy mood. You need to lighten up. Honestly, I really don't care how much you earn or how much you spend. Nor do I care that you earn more money than me, have more assets than me or that you have more "real life" experience." I finished University in 2009 and came to Thailand in 2010. I didnt come here to become rich. In fact I just came here to travel and ended up finding work along the way. Were in completely different situations and if you think earning 32,000B is not a good wage for a single person in a small province in Thailand, you are out of your mind. You wouldnt find too many people in Bangkok making that same salary.

IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.

Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.

All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.

You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.

Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS

Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.

If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.

THe body needs FATS & SUGARS

Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.

Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.

Minerals come from the trees

Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.

Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.

Your funny, just look at chimps they eat meat. The only reason we evolved our brains is because we started eating meat. Meat is packed with calories and much more viable then vegetables. We are omnivores we can eat most things.

People always were HUNTER (you don't hunt vegetables) Gatherers (you do gather them) for as long as we know.

Amen.

I have nothing against vegetarians/vegans. I dont get all bent out of shape what they eat but thats not to say I cant criticize their diet. Its not an optimal diet and its amazing that people ignore what humans have eaten throughout our entire history. We tend to ignore populations that have remained in phenomenal health for centuries despite eating food that is deemed by many to be "unhealthy." There are populations throughout the world that are in fantastic health despite eating diets rich in fat/cholesterol which are supposedly going to clog arteries, give you heart disease and cancer and yet disease is virtually nonexistent in these populations.

We are designed to eat meat. Those who say otherwise really dont know what they are talking about.

I used a personal trainer at the Landmark branch of Fitness First some years ago. She was GREAT! As mentioned, you *could* do it yourself, but in addition to saving the time and trouble of figuring out what and how I should be doing things, she was a great motivator and also made sure I was doing everything correctly. That being said, I got pretty lucky as I was randomly placed with her. I know other people who did trainers at that branch (and others), and they had very different experiences. So I would say it depends much more on who your trainer is, rather than where they are working. If you can get a referral from someone who has used a good trainer before, that'd probably be the best way to go. I can't remember how many hours per package or whatever, but I do know I did two packages with her over 4 months, and after that I was good to go on my own. Actually, I probably would have been fine after the first two months but I was ultimately glad I went the full 4 months as it set me on a path to fitness that I've managed to maintain in the years since.

I believe she is still at Fitness First, so feel free to PM me and I can give you her contact details.

Niranut, was your personal trainer Thai or a foreigner?

My background is in sport's science and i'm looking to work as a personal trainer or in health promotion in Bangkok. Last year, somebody kindly messaged me some contact information to one gym located in Central BKK. So I think when I go back to Thailand I will try to find work there. But im curious if those fitness chains employ foreign personal trainers?

And I agree, theoretically you can do it yourself but having somebody motivate you is really beneficial and it makes a difference in the long run.

In all fairness, why would you move halfway across the world to live like a farang? You can just do that at home.

I wouldn't say I lived like a Thai when I was in Thailand but I certainly dont have the money that some of the people in this thread have. Me being single I couldve easily spent around 10,000B a month. But I certainly wouldnt be having alot of fun.

32,000 B is not a Thai wage. Its far more than a Thai wage and I actually felt privileged to make that considering I didnt go to school to be a teacher and I make more, MUCH MORE than Thai teachers who have been teaching alot longer than I have and went to school for it. Living like a Thai person would be like spending 5,000 a month if not less.

Why move halfway across the world to live like a farang. Some are here as part of their career path, so why should they take a drop in living standards to be here?

32k not a Thai wage, take it you are posting from the back of beyond.

'Living like a Thai person would be like spending 5,000 a month if not less.' you need to spread your wings and circle of Thai aquaintances.

'I didnt go to school to be a teacher', thats the reason some pay the sums they pay for their childrens education, to ensure their children dont end up in the back of beyond working for peanuts.

That's fine. The point i'm trying to make is that I didnt take a drop in living standards despite earning less than what I would make in Canada. Far less. I was able to live a very good life on 32,000B and I saved more than half of that each month. Sure, I admit it the cost of living would be far more expensive living and working in some areas in Bangkok and I do realize people have families to raise. I never once thought I was working for peanuts and I would much rather be in the province I was in surrounded by great people than to be in the city. Unfortunately, If I want to establish myself in Thailand in the field where my background is in, all the opportunities are in Bangkok. So I really have no other choice.

But to see some post's saying that sub 20k is like slave wages is just absurd especially when you are living outside the city. Do people have any idea how much a house costs in a tiny province in the middle of nowhere? Let's just say it wouldnt take too long to pay it off with those "slave" wages.

Everybody's different.

always funny when teachers start comparing themselves to higher class thais in these threads thinking that sub 20k per month salary thais are the norm.. No its not. Its the majority but they're not real thai, they are considered slaves just as the factory workers in your country and the supermarket clerks are just slaves to the system and have no say and no right in reality.

This post is beyond stupid. Have you been anywhere outside of Bangkok or any of the tourist traps in Thailand?

~~~In all fairness, why would you move halfway across the world to live like a farang? You can just do that at home.~~~

I moved from Singapore, hardly halfway across the world. My wife is also Thai and wants to move back home and I am a farang, so if I want to live like what I am I jolly well will. It still doesnt stop me from experiencing and enjoying Thailand and Thai culture does it?

~~~I wouldn't say I lived like a Thai when I was in Thailand but I certainly dont have the money that some of the people in this thread have. Me being single I couldve easily spent around 10,000B a month. But I certainly wouldnt be having alot of fun.~~~

So you admit you didnt live like a Thai, yet you also said if others live like a farang why bother???? How exactly are we supposed to live which is acceptable to you? Like a Nigerian? A Papua New Guinean? Seems to me that you would like to live the best life you can regardless of how Thais live, but just take issue with people who can spend more than you to do it.

~~~32,000 B is not a Thai wage. Its far more than a Thai wage and I actually felt privileged to make that considering I didnt go to school to be a teacher and I make more, MUCH MORE than Thai teachers who have been teaching alot longer than I have and went to school for it. Living like a Thai person would be like spending 5,000 a month if not less. ~~~

Most Thais I know earn more than 32,000 baht a month, you earn less and are in denial. How much do you think it costs to own a car and a condo in Bangkok these days?

You are free to live the way you want to live. But saying its dumb to live like a Thai or close to it is beyond stupid especially when you are living in THEIR country. Nobody is saying to eat sticky rice 2x a day and live in a tiny shack but you definitely experience more of the country's culture when you "live" like a Thai.

Well, its hard to say. I hung out with Thai people, my accomodation was fairly standard even for Thai standards, shopped and ate at local markets. So in that sense, yes I lived like a Thai. But on the otherhand, I had alot more money to play with. I definitely didnt live like a villager in Isaan though. I was a few classes above that.

We apparently hang out with a completely different crowd. Because 32,000B in the province that I was in, was very, VERY good. It was actually more than most of the teachers at my school who have been teaching there for 25 years. So I assume you live in Bangkok and likely hang out with a wealthier class of Thai people. Because 32,000B a month in a small province, you're a rockstar. And hate to break it to you, but 32,000B living in Bangkok, you can also live like a king. I know people who are doing it right now on that wage. Of course, they aren't raising families.

In denial about what? LOL, what you on about? I'd say you can get a basic condo in or around Central BKK for 10,000/month if not less. To buy a car, hmm not exactly sure. What kind of car you talking about?

Interesting how for some the minimum expenditure required to live here is more than what 80-90% of people back home make in total income to begin with

Far from it, some of the posters are probably in the top 10-20% of earners back home, where ever that may be.

We probably have two types of poster, those living and working here on an expat package (and why should they take a pay cut to be here), and those who are retired and living upcountry.

There is also a third category, the farang who is so desperate to be here they are willing to work for a pittance, frankly I wouldnt get out of bed for some of the salaries on offer and its beyond me why some move half way round the world to live like a Thai, in some cases worse than a Thai.

Up to you as they say.

In all fairness, why would you move halfway across the world to live like a farang? You can just do that at home.

I wouldn't say I lived like a Thai when I was in Thailand but I certainly dont have the money that some of the people in this thread have. Me being single I couldve easily spent around 10,000B a month. But I certainly wouldnt be having alot of fun.

32,000 B is not a Thai wage. Its far more than a Thai wage and I actually felt privileged to make that considering I didnt go to school to be a teacher and I make more, MUCH MORE than Thai teachers who have been teaching alot longer than I have and went to school for it. Living like a Thai person would be like spending 5,000 a month if not less.

Last year as a teacher I earned a little over 30,000 Baht a month but I was located in a very small province. And as a result I only spent around 15,000 Baht each month and I was able to live like a king. Eat good food and go out for drinks on the weekends.

IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.

Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.

All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.

You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.

Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS

Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.

If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.

THe body needs FATS & SUGARS

Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.

Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.

Minerals come from the trees

Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.

Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.

I agree with almost everything you posted there EXCEPT for eating meat and dairy. We are designed to eat meat, saying we arent is just ridiculous. You got that the other way around. Our bodies are, ARE designed to breakdown and digest meat. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Sunlight (vit D) is essential. It is amazing how important this nutrient is and how much of a role in can play in disease prevention.

Another factor that often flies off the radar is stress. I would say diet is 80% to health and the other 20% are exercise and managing stress both of equal importance. Stress is unavoidable but constant, day to day stress can lead to a variety of problems.

In another words, if you want to be healthy, get your diet in check and exercise, play, socialize with friends and manage your stress.

Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.

Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;

- Creatine - essential for ATP.

- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.

- Carnitine

- Carnosine

- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.

- Iron

- Zinc

- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.

It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one I only supplement B12 because it is so hard to come by naturally, but as far as I know I'm not missing anything else.

But I am going to look into the nutrients you mentioned. Some of them I know off the top of my head, others I will look into.

So here's what I have for the essential fatty acids. Any thoughts?

For iron, I'm pretty sure I can explain that fully enough on my own as we've had lots of experience with that in my family here. Before I get into the details, suffice it to say that you can get more than enough iron from green leafy vegetables! While the amount of iron in plants is not as high as that of meat product, plant-based iron is much more absorbable and used more fully by the body. So if you eat a bowl full of greens your body will absorb more iron than if you eat an animal food with more iron that is much less absorbable. Does that sound reasonable?

Now, for my personal experience. My husband is from Isaan where something like 90% of the population is iron deficient-- ranging from just mildly deficient to anemic to full blow thalassemia. My oldest daughter was about a year old when her doctor noticed she was quite anemic. Since she was so young, the dr. initially wanted to put her on high iron supplementation to see if that would help her get to where she needed to be. Her numbers were so low, that the dr. suspected thalassimia and recommended a very high iron dose. We compromised and the dr. agreed to let me try and get more iron into her naturally for a month and see how things looked. Since she was still breastfeeding, I increased my own green leafy veggie intake to as much as I could possibly eat in hopes of passing as much on to her as I could. I also started adding greens to everything she ate. And I kid you not, in that one month trial not only did her levels go up-- they went all the way up to normal without a single supplement. Then along came my second daughter who also was showing signs of the same problem, although much milder. Did the same regimen with her-- I upped my own intake to pass along, while also giving her greens with everything. Same result-- iron levels were perfectly fine at the next checkup. And thankfully, they did not need the extra high plant-based iron forever, cause I know I could not eat that many greens for years and years. But for a year or so, it was very worth it to get my girls stabalized and off to a healthy start. They both eat plenty of greens now on their own and haven't had an issue since.

I will get back to you on the other nutrients as I have a chance, as I always learn quite a bit from these types of discussions. Also hoping the OP doesn't mind

That's impressive. Good job.

In terms of it being more absorbable, I really wouldnt know. I'll take a look at it.

The China Study is not a study to be taken seriously. That study has been refuted by many knowledgable nutritionists as being full of garbage and inconsistencies.

I've said this in another post but eating meat, dairy has been a staple of many, MANY of the healthiest populations throughout human history. Meat and dairy is not the cause of our obesity epidemic. Its not the reason why we get sick.

As with most things scientific, you can find experts on both side of the issue. I personally did not find those who refuted Dr. Campbell's work to be as credible. And so I pursued a path of following and oil-free vegan way of life that incorporates whole foods whenever possible.

Of course, everyone needs to decide for themselves. So would just recommend they look into Dr. Campbells work, the work of people who disagree with him, and anything else they find helpful.

Another thing I would highly encourage is to get a complete physical with a blood workup and all of that to establish your baseline. People often go by their weight and inches and all of that, but there are plenty of people who are a healthy weight and size with underlying health risk factors. If you go with a diet that includes animal products, you may see some positive results after a few months and another checkup after 3-6 months may show some improvement.

Of course, my own challenge would be to then consider moving toward an animal-free diet. You don't have to go into it with the intention of doing it forever. Just commit to it for 4-6 weeks and see how you look/feel. If you can swing it, give the oil-free vegan diet a try to 3 months, and then 4 months, then 6 months. I guarantee that you will see a marked improvement in your overall health and well-being from the inside out. And if you get a checkup after 3-6 months on an oil-free vegan diet, I guarantee your numbers (outside measurements as well as bloodwork results) will show a marked improvement. This improvement will be obvious regardless of whether you started out "healthy" or not. And results will more than prove that you are receiving optimal nutrition.

A few other resources that may be helpful:

Dr. Esselstyn's work-- he uses a 100% plant-based diet program to treat heart disease (instead of all of the different heart surgeries that are becoming more and more common); and has a 100% success rate in treating patients who qualify and follow the plan.

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine-- another great resource for information; they also have a great database of recipes

Dr. McDougall-- another well known doctor who sees remarkable success in his patients using a plant-based diet approach to attaining optimal health and wellness

Fat Free Vegan-- even if you don't make a complete switch, there are lots of tasty, healthy recipes here

eslteacher, I've just seen the comment that people who do not eat meat/animal products are not receiving optimal nutrition. What is it in animal products that cannot be gotten from eating a plant-based diet? Other than vitamin B12 (which is easily supplemented), I'm not aware of anything. So just curious. Any other resources you have to support your claims would also be appreciated. Thanks!

Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.

Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;

- Creatine - essential for ATP.

- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.

- Carnitine

- Carnosine

- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.

- Iron

- Zinc

- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.

It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.

Milk is waste from the blood of the animal

Soy is a genetically modified food

Both have no place in a healthy body

Cow's milk 2011 (commercial): pasteurized/sterilized to kill any beneficial bacteria (to make longer shelf life for the seller)

Contents: milk/chemicals/fungicides/herbicides/worms/pus etc.

Drinking milk from Japan ? add radioactive substances

Fat free foods are the last thing you want. We need fats.

Meat and dairy = ill health

Fat people - starving from lack of proper nutrition.

Foods for the human: fruits, nuts, seeds, leaves + clean water, sun, clean air, some exercise

Nonsense.

Commerical dairy products are definitely not a great option. But dairy from grass fed, free range animals are absolutely the way to go and is packed full of nutrition.

Same applies for meat. If you are eating your meat from free range, grass fed animals, you are getting optimal nutrition. The difference in nutrition between grass fed, free range organic meat compared to the garbage, corn/grain fed meat you'd find at your typical supermarket is incredibly significant.

Meat and dairy should be part of a person's diet. If it isnt, you simply arent eating an optimal diet.

I would vote "none of the above." Just my own understanding of nutrition, but animal products (dairy, meat, eggs, etc) are not recommended for long-term human consumption if you want to enjoy a longer, disease/illness free life in the long-term. I highly recommend starting by reading "The China Study" by Dr. Campbell which may very well change how you view nutrition.

Definitely steer clear of any/all cow's milk, soy in moderation (i.e. to make soups/smoothies, but not to drink by the liter). I use V-Soy sugar-free milk in moderate amounts for cooking only.

As for what and how much, I'm of the belief that if you eat a plant-based diet (with no meat, and little/no other animal products), you can eat until you are full. 100 calories of olive oil is something like a tablespoon, 100 calories of beef steak is not much at all, but 100 calories of boccoli is a LOT of broccoli. So eat vegetables, and lots of them, and you will be full, be getting plenty of fiber, essential vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals, and feel better faster. Just be careful what you cook them in, cause the sauces can add lots of unnecessary sodium and fat. There are plenty of plant-based sources of protein out there as well. Keep in mind that pretty much everyone today eats way more protein as they need, but if you start to experiment with beans and lentils, and throw in a handful of nuts a day, you will be getting more than enough protein. Not to mention that many green leafy vegetables are also very rich in protein as well when you eat *lots* of them (which is what you should do!)

I know this is not a popular view of nutrition, but I would highly encourage you to look into it before you completely disregard it. If you can get a copy of "The China Study", that's a good place to start. Dr. Campbell is not pushing a diet plan or have any sort of agenda-- he just lays out the facts as he has see them play out in his decades of research.

I'm personally a fan of Dr. Fuhrman's "Eat to Live" approach to health and wellness. He's got lots of information on his website. He's also got a member's only section there which is full of lots of helpful tips, advice, and recipes. I joined a while back for a couple months just to download all of the recipes-- cause there are literally hundres of recipes up there, and it was worth the $10 to get a bunch of recipes I know I'd use, instead of spending $10 on a cookbook or something where I'd only use a few. Anyway, that's a good resource. There is also an Eat to Live Yahoo group. The group is a great free resource if you looking for recipes or just general information on the program.

There are other programs that also follow a plant-based approach, which I would also highly recommend. The less animal protein you take in, the better-- it doesn't matter how you do it. And you will definitely find your energy levels are way up and not only will you be motivated to get moving, you'll be moving all the time

HTH

The China Study is not a study to be taken seriously. That study has been refuted by many knowledgable nutritionists as being full of garbage and inconsistencies.

I've said this in another post but eating meat, dairy has been a staple of many, MANY of the healthiest populations throughout human history. Meat and dairy is not the cause of our obesity epidemic. Its not the reason why we get sick.