ellobo

I am going to buy a drill press for hobby woodworking and light steel work.  I have never purchased one before so I have little knowledge of what to look for.

I live near Khon Kaen so my shopping will be Global or Home Hub, as Home Pro does not carry drill presses.  The ones that I have seen at Global and some at Home Hub seem, how should I put this, a little fragile.  Home Hub has a couple that look a little heftier.

Any advise on what to look for, or another source, will be appreciated.

TIA.

On 8/7/2021 at 3:41 PM, Crossy said:

 

And the important one N-E? Don't assume it's going to be the same as the G-E one (it should be of course but ...).

I was doing so much testing that I may have lost track but I believe that this is a typo as it makes no sense to test G to E, as in the context of our discussions, they are the same. I think it should have read N to E as that is consistent with what I have been reading, and still am.

On 8/7/2021 at 3:41 PM, Crossy said:

 

Is N-E constant or does it vary with load or time of day?

Sorry but I did not pay that much attention. It was always 14-15V.

On 8/7/2021 at 3:41 PM, Crossy said:

 

A MEN N at 14V isn't right, shame you can't check at the meter (is it sealed you you can't remove the terminal cover?).

I think that we agree that the 14-15V on the N is the real problem. On further investigating, I think that you intuition that it may be in the meter is spot-on. The photo below shows that the power company lines from the pole are split into two lines, one going to my meter and the other to my neighbor's meter. When I cut the power at my knife switch, it essentially isolated the meter and lines to the switch. I think that the lines themselves being the problem are remote, and the problem lies in the meter. As mentioned, I still showed 12+V N at my knife switch, while my neighbor shows 0V at the N in their CU.

I do not feel comfortable poking around in the meter but I have just about convinced my wife to call someone who knows what they are doing to take a look at it. I will let you know the results. Thanks again.

Thank you for your response and concern.

On 8/6/2021 at 10:29 AM, Crossy said:

Have you done the "screwdriver in the lawn" check (measuring voltage, not resistance between the driver, L, N and E)?

Yes, July 22 post.

“OK, screwdriver ground installed and connected directly to the water heater. 224VAC L-E, 14VAC G-E.”

Quote

Have you verified that you actually have MEN implemented on your supply? Check the supply poles, the neutral (the top wire of the 4 LV wires) should be grounded at every third pole.

 

If your supply is MEN and the neutral is getting to 15V above deck than there's a significant diverted current somewhere. Very worrying.

MEN confirmed. See photos below. Three poles down the same.

Quote

As it is now with the shower on a separate rod there's no real hazard but I worry that you are managing to pull your earth up to 15V.

 

As do I.

Investigating further, I went to where the power lines enter our property and disengaged the double pole, knife disconnect switch. On the incoming side, the pen meter showed the same readings as taken in the house, 12+V on N and ~220 on L. I could not use my multi-meter as the probes are too short. (I even had my ol' trusty, not rusty, screwdriver with me ready to jab into the dirt.)  ????

Quote

Note: All earth spikes (ground rods) should be connected together, including the shower earth, as this ensures continuity, should one fail the others will take over..!

 

Thank you for your response.  Unfortunately, if I connect the earth spikes as you suggest, this will put me right back where I started.

A quick recap of what I have found with an illustration this time.

I have an unknown source of fourteen to fifteen V potential at my Ns.

The CU in the parking area is a newer one with the N connected directly to the Gbar and then proceeding to the Main CB. Therefore, with the G connected to the Gbar, I have a 12V+ (probably the same 14-15V but as you know, the pen meter is not concise) on the G which gives me the 12V+ in the shower water heater, G, tank, and all.

Hence, the second, unconnected G-rod giving me 0V at the water heater.

If you think that multiple G-rods are necessary, I will install additional rods as illustrated but still keep the groundings separated.

On 7/22/2021 at 10:16 AM, millymoopoo said:

Whilst there are many respondents to this subject it is worth while understanding some basics.

1: Electricity and wet areas don't mix well.!

2: Effective earthing in these areas is essential.

3: Multiply earthed neutral system, with or without ELCB (safety switch) is appropriate.

Effective earthing in Thailand is often overlooked.

The length of an earth spike is irrelevant, it's effectiveness is.!

A 60ft earth spike into dry ground is almost as ineffective as a 6ft spike into dry ground.

A spot where the ground is permanently moist is essential for an earth spike to work.

So a spikes into the ground near the septic leach drain long enough to be well into the moist area should work.

A separate grounding rod for the shower heaters has been added right next to one of the septic tanks. The earth around this tank will remain moist as long as someone in living in the house. The existing grounding wires from the shower heaters have been moved to the new grounding rod.

On 7/22/2021 at 10:16 AM, millymoopoo said:

Testing (megameter) of the effectiveness of earthing is advised.

Not available.

On 7/22/2021 at 10:16 AM, millymoopoo said:

In pre plastic pipe days, electrical safety in wet areas was taken care of by effective earthing of steel and copper pipes and fittings.

In this plastic pipe era safety is now taken care of with ELCBs.

The water line from the supply tank to the shower is all plastic except for some valves which are isolated from the ground. I cut a portion of the plastic pipe and added a section of steel pipe and earthed it. (It is above ground for now but I will add some underground later.)

On 7/22/2021 at 10:16 AM, millymoopoo said:

In this specific situation it may be worth while opening the hot water heater to see the actual heater (boiler), many are small copper tanks with electric elements within, some are now made of heat proof plastic.

If the boiler is copper, test the tank body with the pen volt meter, it should test at 0v, if a voltage is detected and the tank is not earthed, earth it.

Plastic boiler tanks are more difficult to test, the heater element within the tank will have a copper outer shell, some of this outer may be protruding from the tank, test this, it too should be at 0v.

It's a copper tank with a plastic shield but can test the copper intake and output lines, 0v.

Look, I am not anti-Thai (married to, visited for …, lived for …, yada, yada) nor am I anti-ELCB, but, we all know that sooomtimes in Thailand we get <deleted>. And, I know just enough electrical to be dangerous, so when I walk into the hardware store I have no idea what is good and what is not.

So if you all will tell me in your opinion which brand of ELCB is most trustworthy, and what settings I should use, I will replace my existing ELCB s.      TIA

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As I mentioned shock is a funny thing, they can be bypassed and need regular testing to make sure they are working.

Do you know for sure that they 1) weren’t bypassed? 2) had been tested within a month? 3) weren’t set so high that you broke the contact before they did 4) that the current was actually going through them?

#1 and 4.  Installed in CU as right out of the box.  The photo attached to my first post is typical.  #3.  No settings provided in this brand of ELCB s.

#2.  Probably not, and I doubt most people test every month although I am sure that you and Crossy do, no disrespect intended, but you are not typical when it comes to electrical matters .  Just another hoop that makes me distrust them.  And yes they still trip on the test button.

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The RCCB will not stop you getting a shock, it will reduce the time of a shock to a usually non lethal one. Some RCCDs allow the length of the cutoff to be extended and even bypassed. Electric shock is a strange thing it has a variable effect depending on the person the path through that person among other factors. Correct Earthing is always good but incorrect earthing can be deadly.

But they still should trip, right?  These did not.

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The majority of you post is excellent but in your concentration on an ELCB as the safety switch and the way it works you have made a significant error which is drawing a dangerously wrong conclusion (in that if believed people may decide not to install one) 

The function of the vast majority of RCCBs (a common term for your ELCB) that are required to be installed in Thailand and many other countries, is to measure the current on both the line and neutral and if there is an imbalance to cut the circuit NO PERMANENT EARTH CONNECTION IS REQUIRED FOR THEM TO FUNCTION, they work if enough (a very tiny amount) of difference is detected.
 

Effective earthing may allow them to trip before a human is involved and is an absolutely good thing 

This is slightly off-topic but frankly I do not trust ELCB s in Thailand simply because I have been hit hard by 220VAC twice and I think that proper functioning ELCB s , which were installed, should have prevented them both. Each time I got hit I was grounded to an object other than the N which in theory should have activated the ELCB. I compare these to a time prior when I felt a slight “bump” (still 220) and the ELCB did trip. This distrust includes the ELCB s in the shower heaters and that is why I would like to mitigate their need as much as possible.

9 hours ago, Grusa said:

It is entirely possible there is an induced voltage between the supply ground and your grounding rod.

It would appear so. Is this normal and what causes it? In your opinion should I do something about it and if so, what?

9 hours ago, millymoopoo said:

Whilst there are many respondents to this subject it is worth while understanding some basics.

1: Electricity and wet areas don't mix well.!

2: Effective earthing in these areas is essential.

3: Multiply earthed neutral system, with or without ELCB (safety switch) is appropriate.

Effective earthing in Thailand is often overlooked.

The length of an earth spike is irrelevant, it's effectiveness is.!

A 60ft earth spike into dry ground is almost as ineffective as a 6ft spike into dry ground.

A spot where the ground is permanently moist is essential for an earth spike to work.

So a spikes into the ground near the septic leach drain long enough to be well into the moist area should work.

Several spikes spaced out within the moist area are more effective than one.

If this is not available then a spike long enough to reach into the ground water table should be used.

Earth spikes that join together (male and female screw ends) can be assembled and driven into the moist ground at what ever depth is required.

Testing (megameter) of the effectiveness of earthing is advised.

Multiple earthed neutral systems are appropriate.

This is the long brass bus bar in the main switchboard, it will have all the neutral wires (black or blue) from the house circuits connected into it as well as the main earth wire (green).

This can be divided into two sections connected together by the earth leakage circuit breaker safety switch (ELCB) as a fail safe.

It should be noted that ELCBs (safety switches) do not work when there is no effective earth.

In pre plastic pipe days, electrical safety in wet areas was taken care of by effective earthing of steel and copper pipes and fittings.

In this plastic pipe era safety is now taken care of with ELCBs.

And thus where there is no effective earth ELCBS are useless.!

In this specific situation it may be worth while opening the hot water heater to see the actual heater (boiler), many are small copper tanks with electric elements within, some are now made of heat proof plastic.

If the boiler is copper, test the tank body with the pen volt meter, it should test at 0v, if a voltage is detected and the tank is not earthed, earth it.

Plastic boiler tanks are more difficult to test, the heater element within the tank will have a copper outer shell, some of this outer may be protruding from the tank, test this, it too should be at 0v.

If a voltage is detected and the tank is earthed, the earth is faulty (ineffective).

Refer to above on how to ensure the earth is effective.

Some water heaters come with built in ELCBs but as previously mentioned become useless when there is no effective earth.

ELCBs trip on less than 1v, if the voltage detected is 12v - 14v this suggests, 1: there is no ELCB on the circuit or 2: the earth is ineffective.

A lot of good information here, it will take awhile to digest it all.  Thank you.

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

That's a good connection, is that shower to CU or CU to rod?

Both. I had placed the screw driver about five meters from the grounding rod so I ran a wire from the rod to the screw driver.  So, probe to existing ground wire still dangling by heater, to Gbar in CU, through heavier ground wire to rod, to screw driver, back through temp ground wire to probe.

Quote

 

Doesn't it have a 200 ohm range?

 

 

Yes, 0.1

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

With a direct copper connection I would hope for as close to zero as a cheap DMM can get.

 

Set on 2k it reads .001, the same as touching the two probes together.

A lot of great posts, thank you one and all.  I will try to work through them.

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Yes. Because it is the only way to get an absolutely known earth. It should also be at leat 3m from any system earth (doesn't actually matter much so long as you are not right next to the rod).

OK, screwdriver ground installed and connected directly to the water heater.  224VAC L-E, 14VAC G-E.  Does this tell us anything?  What else do I need to check with this?

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

These voltages N-E are inconsequential particularly as you seem to have created TT islands on the TNC-S system (this is why I asked for a sketch of what you actually have, working in the dark somewhat).

I am working on a sketch, however, I think you are correct re the TT islands.  For one, I am over 150m from the "grounded" power poll.  As I mentioned, the two consumer units in the house, one of which the showers are connected, are old boxes with no connection between G-E which if I understand correctly could make them TT islands.  So I am guessing I should connect G-E in these CU s.  Am I close?

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Have you checked the continuity of the earth from the heater to the ground bar and from the ground bar to the rod?

No, and I think this should be the next step, to the rod and to the screw driver.  Can you tell me how to do this (with a multi-meter?) 

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Nope.

 

Pure water (tap water is pretty pure) is a very poor conductor of electricity it just doesn't have the free ions, it needs dissolved salts (like from your skin) to become conductive to any appreciable degree. 

The key here is "pure water."  We are on a well with very hard water.  A little demonstration.

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

As was the case on the power pole outside of my house here, and when I investigated it, the cable was wound around something akin to a 6 inch nail and pushed into the ground....duh?

Was this causing you any problems?

Thank you for your responses.

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Number one is that you probably won't feel 12V AC, it's certainly not hazardous.

I am not disagreeing with you, however, if you can convince the wife of that, problem solved. * laughing *

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Number two, at low voltages those pen units are less than accurate.

I realize that. Please note from my post, “Further checking with the multi-meter the next day showed:  ….. 14 to 15 VAC between N to G”

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Try measuring (with a proper meter) between neutral and a known ground (not your rod, leave that connected, stick a big screwdriver in the lawn).

You like your screwdrivers in the lawn don't you? * laughing again * Hay, I have read every post in this section that may give a clue to my problem, hence your previous mention of screwdrivers was noted.  But I agree that all possibilities should be checked and I should have done so already, so in the morning.

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

You appear to be wired as MEN, so as long as your rod is good you should get very little N-E.

I will double check in the morning but is 14 to 15 very little?  Seems to me that it should be close to zero.

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

I assume that one of the green wires is the rod, the other is the water heater.

The photo is of the newer CU in the parking area, sorry I should have labeled it, but yes. The CU in the house with the water heater is a twelve CB unit with two water heaters, each with its own ground back to the Gbar.

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Very often those "tingles" are actually just muscular, I get them in our shower which is on 2m of plastic pipe from a properly grounded water heater.

 

Does your shower heater have metallic pipe fittings for the shower head, most are plastic these days.

This could be another thread but all of the hose connections in the water heater are plastic but there is still a 11 to 12V charge on the shower head and the shut-off valve measured with the multi meter (to N.)

This started when my wife told me one evening that she had just gotten an electrical shock when she touched the shower head and then when she turned-off the shower valve. I checked both with my little pen voltage meter and it showed 12+VAC at both.

My set-up is, the Mains are split into three consumer units, two in the house and one in the parking area. The two in the house are about twelve years old with no connection between the Nbar and the Gbar, the Mains going directly to the main CB. The one in the parking is newer with the Main L going directly to the main CB and the Main N going to the Gbar and then to the main CB. I have a heaver gauge Ground (Earth) wire going from a two meter copper ground rod driven between the house and septic tanks and then that wire is split to each of the CU's Gbars. All of my receptacles and main appliances are attached via ground wires to their respective CU Gbars.

Quick checks that evening with my little pen VM showed 220VAC on all Ls and 12+VAC on all Ns, including those at the Main CB s, and all Gs including those inside the shower unit. Further checking with the multi-meter the next day showed:

with all Main CB s on or off, ~225VAC between Ls and Ns at all CU s and the same between Ls and Gbars at all CU s. No VAC between Ns and Gs anywhere (as they are connected in the parking CU but still 12+ on both with the pen VM.). With the heavier G (Earth) detached from the CU Gbar in the parking area and all of the Main CB s off, the reading between Ls and Ns were the same as above. The difference in the readings was that I had 14 to 15 VAC between the Ns and heavier G wire at the CU in the parking area and 14 to 15 VAC between N and Gbars at the other CU s. The shower unit showed 14 to 15 VAC between N to G, and, 11 to 12 VAC N to the shower head and shower valve (with main and dedicated CB s off.)

All this is to say that it appears that I have 14 to 15 VAC coming-in through my Main N and grounding does not mitigate it. As a note, the power pole from which my meter originates has a cable running down the back from somewhere above into the ground.

Suggestions please.

2 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Sir if your so sure MSG is great stuff why dont you start putting in on all your food instead of salt.......In a few weeks you might just get MSG sickness ......

I don't see where anyone is saying MSG is great stuff.

2 hours ago, redwood1 said:

MSG is nasty stuff.....I have been MSG sick loads of times...

I understand that the cure for this is a tin-foil hat.  Might improve your reading ability also.    ????

On 4/12/2021 at 9:15 PM, BenDeCosta said:

 

 

used to be known as "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome", it's not an allergy but the body's reaction to a large dose. 

 

Here is an interesting story about “Chinese Restaurant Syndrome” extracted from:

  https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-msg/

This is an excellent article by Dr. Peter Attia MD and confirms everything you have been saying about MSG.

“It’s a strange story about how public media picked up and ran with questionable information. The NPR podcast This American Life dedicated part of an episode to the account. In 1968, a Letter to the Editor warning readers about “Chinese Restaurant Syndrome” (CRS) appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM). You may know about CRS. Maybe you’ve experienced it yourself ...

The letter was signed by a physician and Chinese immigrant named Dr. Robert Ho Man Kwok, who claimed to feel numbness and palpitations after eating in Chinese restaurants in the US, speculated that MSG was the cause, and called for further research. ….

Nonetheless, one of the replies to the original letter speculated that it was a joke, and regardless, it took on a life of its own thereafter.

The most practical way to determine the reaction to Kwok’s letter decades later was to dig through old print journals, and several researchers who searched found numerous reply letters in subsequent issues. They found that some letters were clearly tongue-in-cheek, and most seemed to be part of a lighthearted NEJM tradition in which letters to the editor jokingly described quotidian symptoms using excessively technical medical terminology. Though most of the response letters in NEJM were no doubt meant to be humorous, the joke was completely lost on the media, which dutifully reported on this new “health concern.” Six weeks after its publication, the New York Times ran an article on this so-called “Chinese restaurant syndrome,” including interviews with defensive Chinese restaurant owners. Several major newspapers quoted from one of the satirical response letters to the NEJM as if it were a scientific document. The article did not mention that MSG is also widely used in many foods associated with the west rather than China, such as flavored potato chips, parmesan cheese, frozen dinners, and fast food. The inconsistency—symptoms occur after eating “Chinese” restaurant food with added MSG, but not in others—further suggests the entire argument is devoid of merit.”

Thank you for your response Sheryl.  I will keep your advise in mind if I decide to get the test.

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

There are 2 different tests: one for the virus itself and one for antibodies.

 

Are there test for antibodies available in Thailand?  If so, where? Thanks

4 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Many things in Thailand are from China, mostly cheap electrical goods. And most of them are next to useless. Ever the diplomat, I recently asked a Chinese colleague in Dubai why China produced such rubbish, and he told me that in China everything worked and they just exported the cheap rubbish to countries that didn't want to pay for quality. Enter Thailand.

I suspect that this happens not only in China.

I have had a theory for years that if a product's QC is not good enough to export to say the USA or a European country, they send it to Thailand as we have absolutely no consumer protection here.

I had a relative new Samsung TV, barely out of warranty, that I moved from my old house, literally two blocks, to my new house, and got the split screen problem where one-half of the screen quits working.  My two LG TVs have been working fine for seven years now even though they were driven over the same road as the Samsung.  So in-line with the thread, for me, Samsung quality bad, LG good.

I routinely plan on buying a new printer every year as something always seems to go wrong.  In the USA I used Epsons for years with good results but the first one I bought here had built-in obsolesce.  It quit working after so many pages and the error code says take it to the nearest service center and they will check this and that and reset the code.  I checked this and that but could not hack the code.  Built-in obsolesce is a deal breaker for me.  I am on my forth Canon but the last one lasted almost three years.  So, Epson bad, Canon so-so.

For tools, I have had very good luck with Makita and Bosch from Home Hub.

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I assume you might of been trying to direct deposit you SS payments direct to your Bangkok Bank account via there New York branch.

There is info here that you change to Thai. https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

Wow, this is fantastic info.

I went to their web-site but see no option to open an account on-line.  Can we open an account here in Thailand, say in Khon Kaen, and have it apply there?

TIA

Thank you ubonjoe, exactly for what I was looking.

I think I will be applying at the same office, or at least the same district, KK.  I am down Phon way.