VisasPlus

Ok if i show my Bangkok Bank statements with funds coming in from the Uk which is the same amount of money i recieve from my rental agreement then that would be enough with a copy of the agreement,making sure that the funds have been coming in over a 12 month period.

I really don't know how I can answer you. I understand what you are saying, and, logically, it might well meet the specified evidence. However, I can't answer for how the ECO is going to assess the financial evidence you provide against the "specified evidence" in Appendix FM ( which I have detailed above). I honestly can't say if the paper trail you describe ( without seeing the actual documents) will be enough., and it would be unfair of me to say that it is. Only the ECO will be able to answer that.

If you take the specified evidence requirements literally, then the answer is no, it is not good enough, because the Bangkok Bank statements do not show the rent being paid in. The account will show money transfers from the UK. Again, if you can show the paper trail, you might be okay, but I cannot say that you will. It is a question that you can ask the UKBA at the Embassy in Bangkok by sending them an email and requesting guidance.

I have to say visa plus you have made me worry. was that a fluke or are all your submissions dealt with within that time frame?

I have no idea why it was dealt with so quickly. Maybe because, as it was under the new rules, I made sure that it was explained in great detail how the financial requirements were met. I think, in some situations, the ECOs will be confused about whether an applicant, or sponsor, qualifies or not. Maybe they are even having to seek guidance from UK.

Q1 I am a bit supprised that even though I am the same sponcer i still need all the back up information ,ie photos and telephone communication . I was so relieved when i had finaly got it all together i dont remeber now if i made copys . I certainly didnt with the photos . That was a major mistake if i didn't . I would hope it wont be as stressfull next time regarding visa apps though but i hope she will be returning with our baby , so maybe it will be more stressfull ,will have to get british passport etc for baby ,not a 5 minute opperation from what i read on here!

Q4 I used the simple explanation from Visa Plus explanation earlier post and worked out the answer to q 4. it is basicaly my rental income times 2.5 reduction off the 72 thousand pounds required for spouse and 1 child , so for every 1 thousand pounds i can show from rental income from the last 12 months its 2.5 thousand off the amount of savings required .If i understand correctly ?.

Thanks again guys ! Im off to buy my euromillions lottery ticket , its the most likely option at this time .

If your rental income is 10,000 GBP per year, then I make the savings requirement to be 47,000 GBP.

Q1. Afraid so, but updated. Each application is treated on it's own merits and so the same level of evidence is required. Otherwise, a person who had once visited the UK but since ended the relationship with that sponsor could use the past relationship to obtain a second visa.

Q2. As far as I'm aware; yes. Provided you can adequately accommodate yourself and your partner.

Q3. Who knows? The government has said that the requirements will be reviewed each year and adjusted in line with inflation (i.e. upward).

Legal challenges may also effect these requirements.

Q4. Not sure; there is a calculator in the guidance linked to above.

Re Q4, it depends on how much rental income you get per year. Once the rental income in either THB or GBP is known ( 10k in what currency ? ), the required savings can be calculated.

Settlement visa application submitted 23rd July ( new rules) issued today.

Quick turn around Tony.

It was, and it wasn't particularly straightforward. It was a combination of savings and rental income to meet the financial requirement.

Refused

What kind of application was it ? For wife ? Children ?

You should post the refusal notice for us to see. We may be able to offer advice. Please remove all identfying personal particulars before doing so. You will have the right of appeal, but this must be used within 28 days.

Ok does that mean u are saying the visa will be rejected for sure and if it goes to an appeal that it is unlikely that i will be successful in obtaining the visa.

I can't say that it will be rejected for sure. What I am saying is that the specified evidence required to meet the financial requirements is indeed "specific". If the ECO interprets the requirements literally, then you require, amongst other things, :

Monthly personal bank statements for the 12-month period prior to the date of application showing the rental income was paid into an account in the name of the person or of the person and their partner jointly.

If your bank statements show a paper trail from rental contract to the bank account, all in your name, then you should meet the requirement. If you cannot show that the income comes from a tenant with a contract, and ends up in your bank account as obviously from rental income, then you may have a problem.

You can seek advice on the above, or you can do the application yourself. Either way, you must be sure that the paper trail is correct and easy to follow. Whatever you do, be sure that you meet the requirements .If the application is refused, and if you lose any appeal, it is an expensive exercise. The financial requirements now have this "specified evidence". It is easy for the ECO to refuse an application if you do not meet those specified requirements. At this stage, the legislation being untested, we don't know how immigration judges will view things at appeal.

VisasPlus knows more about this than I, but as far as I am aware the financial requirement can be satisfied by

• Income, or
  
• Savings,or
  
• Combination of both.
  

As the flats are separate and self contained I doubt that the other 4 would be deemed as part of your main residence. It is not the same situation as the example given in the guidance; having a lodger.

I agree with 7x7 on the property question. I would think that, if your main home ( your flat) is separate then the other tenants are not your lodgers. The definition of a lodger seems to be someone "that has mere use of the premises without actual or exclusive possession thereof".

The income requirement can be met in the ways that 7x7 says, except that income from self employment cannot be combined with savings..

I could be in a similar situation soon, possibly marrying my Thai girlfriend of 7 yrs who has 1 child of 9yrs and a teenager of 18yrs. I could probably just scrape in on the savings, but can anyone please tell me what income level would then be required on top of the £72000? I presume the UKBA would accept a settlement application for just the younger child and not the teenager who wants to stay in Thailand anyway. Most of my UK income is classified as 'Land and Property', which is from UK rented property, A small very element of my income is classified as 'Self-Employed', but this will probably cease very soon, so my only income will then be from L & P. Also is there any ongoing monitoring of the £72000 savings once the settlement visa has been granted? I am 60 yrs old and lucky to have no real pressure on where we live, but I really sympathise with you Matsky13 trying to do the right thing and finding yourself in such a difficult situation. I wish you good luck for your family's future.

If you meet the savings requirement ( 72,000 GBP for wife and one child in savings for at least 6 months, etc) then that is all you need. There is no additional income required. It's pretty nonsensical really as, as soon as your wife has the visa, you can blow the savings on a new Porsche Boxster if you want. Where's the logic in all of this ? You will, of course, have to meet the financial requirement again at the Further Leave to remain stage after 30 months in the UK, and later at the ILR stage too.

Thanks for that Visaplus, But is the financial requirement the same at the Leave to remain stage and ILR stage? If so then I I'll have to delay buying the new Porsche Boxster wont I?

I'm afraid it is ! No new Porsche for you, then

Thank u for useful info much obliged.

I have had a property in Europe for 2 years annual income near 1600 pounds per month gives me just the correct income but i have only moved the funds into a bank 10 times in 2 years.The money that has gone into my bank covers me for the required income needed just can not show funds put in the bank on a monthly basis is that going to be a problem.

Yes, it will be a problem. You re required to show 12 months bank statements showing the rental income being deposited each month.

I could be in a similar situation soon, possibly marrying my Thai girlfriend of 7 yrs who has 1 child of 9yrs and a teenager of 18yrs. I could probably just scrape in on the savings, but can anyone please tell me what income level would then be required on top of the £72000? I presume the UKBA would accept a settlement application for just the younger child and not the teenager who wants to stay in Thailand anyway. Most of my UK income is classified as 'Land and Property', which is from UK rented property, A small very element of my income is classified as 'Self-Employed', but this will probably cease very soon, so my only income will then be from L & P. Also is there any ongoing monitoring of the £72000 savings once the settlement visa has been granted? I am 60 yrs old and lucky to have no real pressure on where we live, but I really sympathise with you Matsky13 trying to do the right thing and finding yourself in such a difficult situation. I wish you good luck for your family's future.

If you meet the savings requirement ( 72,000 GBP for wife and one child in savings for at least 6 months, etc) then that is all you need. There is no additional income required. It's pretty nonsensical really as, as soon as your wife has the visa, you can blow the savings on a new Porsche Boxster if you want. Where's the logic in all of this ? You will, of course, have to meet the financial requirement again at the Further Leave to remain stage after 30 months in the UK, and later at the ILR stage too.

Maybe a silly question, but you simply say that your wife has a resident stamp.

Is this permanent residence under the EEA rules; or did she enter the UK under the UK immigration rules and so have ILR?

I also feel that there is much you are not telling us.. Your posting history shows that you have previously asked about trips not just to Thailand but also to Laos and the Philippines. Also that you own, or have until recently owned, property in Pattaya.

No reason why you shouldn't, of course; but owning property in Thailand; long absences from the UK; these could indicate that you and your wife may not have resided continuously in the UK. Which could be why they asked the questions you complained about here.

How did you answer those questions? What other questions did they ask?

Whether any of the above effects this application, I don't know. Both Eff1n2ret and VisaPlus know far more about the EEA regulations than I.

Good points, 7x7. Could it be possible that the OP hasn't given us full details ? I have assumed that he has actually been residing in the UK permanently for 45 years as stated in the opening post. Hopefully he will explain.

The only thing I can glean from what appears to be a badly-worded refusal is this:-

You say you are permanently incapacitated.

Regulation 6 of the 2006 Regs says this:-

“Qualified person”

6.

—(1) In these Regulations, “qualified person” means a person who is an EEA national and in

the United Kingdom as—

(a) a jobseeker;

(B a worker;

© a self-employed person;

(d) a self-sufficient person; or

(e) a student.

(2) A person who is no longer working shall not cease to be treated as a worker for the purpose

of paragraph (1)(B if—

(a) he is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

The effective word there is "temporarily" - therefore, you can not qualify as an EEA national who is exercising his rights in the UK unless you have established Permanent Residence under the EEA Regs (which is where the 5 years comes in). So they seem to think that you haven't provided evidence of that, but given that your wife has been there for 5 years as a Family Member, I don't see how they can dispute that you have been exercising Treaty Rights as an Irish National for at least that period of time, even if you could never have been said to have done so during your previous life in the UK.

Edit:- on second thoughts, the period of "permanent incapacity" might be relevant - i.e. the date from which you ceased work and thereafter gave up all hope of further employment. But then the'yre second-guessing the UK caseworkers who conferred Permanent Residence on your missis.

Best thing is, as you were assisted by lawyers to present the application, get them stuck in with the appeal (if they are qualified). Maybe there's some way you can get the ECM in Bangkok to review the case - VisasPlus would be the best person to comment on that.

I agree with all that you say, John, and I don't understand the decision myself. He surely has permanent residence in the UK after all this time ? I also think that the "permanent incapacity " might be the reason for refusal. Was the OP resident in the UK before he became incapacitated ? It seems so ( he has lived in the UK for 45 years ), so I wonder why he is considered unqualified.

As you say, if the OP has representatives, then he should use them. Any advisor in the UK should be OISC registered or an immigration lawyer, and he should be able to achieve much the same that I can. Otherwise, I would be happy to contact the Embassy to seek a review and explanation if the OP gives me the full background to the application, and the appropriate written permission to do so.

Time is of the essence here as asking for a review will eat into the time allowed to submit an appeal.

We recently had a similar experience with one of our customers. Fortunately we had forewarned her that, as an unmarried partner, VFS might try to "persuade" her that she could not apply for a family visit. VFS did indeed try to get her to complete a new VAF, for 250 THB, but she declined their kind offer as we had instructed her to do.

I complained, as I often do, to UKBA at the British Embassy, and received a similar response which said, amongst other things:

To clarify the changes in the rules and how they affect the community in

Thailand, should a Thai national be travelling with her British husband (or

Unmarried partner where the couple have been in a relationship akin to

marriage or civil partnership for at least the 2 years before the day the

application is made and the relationship is genuine and subsisting) then

they can apply as a family visitor.

We have provided instructions to the visa application centre to accept

applications even if the applicant does not qualify as a family visitor and

we will amend to the general visitor category once the application reaches

the visa section at the British Embassy if it is clear that the applicant

does not meet the family visitor criteria.

Holy crap visa plus:)that's after mine... that's not made me worry MUCH!

Maybe the ECOs are having trouble understanding their own new regulations.

If they do only have the papers in front of them for 10 mins what's going on for the rest of the weeks?

Let's say they have the papers for 30 mins and they work 7 hours a day for 5 days. That means that one person will process 14 a day 70 a week 280 a mth. That's only one person and we are giving them 20mins longer than we seem to think. Last mth they had and don't quote me 160applications

If they worked for me someone would be looking for a new job Monday

Before some tells me they do more than settlement visa I understand but remember there will be more than one person processing the applications

They do indeed not just process settlement visas.

In July they processed 160 settlement visas, but they also processed 5282 non settlement visas (Source).

A total of 5442 processed. At an average of 10 minutes per decision that's 907 man hours in the month. Assuming 20 working days in July, i.e. no official holidays, that's 45.35 man hours per day; plus the time they have to spend writing reports, case notes etc.

Yes, I think you are right; there is more than one ECO working in Bangkok!

So thats at least 4 people

like i have said its just a rant nothing more nothing less.

VisaPlus: Did you recive it today or ?.... Meaning did you get the mail saying it was ready today? Only ask becasue thats a week before ours. Gives me that hope that there might be a message in my inbox very soon.

Received means passport and visa received in our office

Settlement visa application submitted 23rd July ( new rules) issued today.

Settlement visa application submitted on 13th July ( under the new rules) issued today.

Visa Plus I am totaly shocked and baffled by this figure of 72000 Pounds I have cut and pasted some of the UKBA section FM1.7 that I thought was relevent .Clearly saying 16000 pounds as a figure excluding someone from accessing public funds .

I cannot imagine why you would require 720000 pounds in the bank to support a person and not become a burden on the state .

a baby born in Thailand would be Thai I thought ?? so i would be applying for a wife and 2 children ?

I am must be missing some realy key points here , and am now totaly worried ,

1.2 Background

The family migration consultation conducted in 2011 proposed that the level of income for those sponsoring a non-EEA partner should represent what is needed to support them at a reasonable level that helps to ensure that they do not become a burden on the taxpayer and allows sufficient participation in everyday life to facilitate integration.

The new financial requirement reflects the level of income at which a couple, taking account of the number of children they have, generally cease to be able to access income-related benefits. This means that financially they can support themselves and the migrant’s integration without becoming a burden on the taxpayer.

2.

Key operating principles of the financial requirement

The previous maintenance requirement for family members has been replaced by the new financial requirement under Appendix FM.

i.

Applicants must meet the minimum gross annual income of £18,600 (or the relevant higher figure where a child or children are also being sponsored).

ii.

This can include the employment income of the applicant’s partner and the applicant (excluding the applicant’s at the entry clearance stage) and the non-employment and pension income, and income from certain contributory benefits, of the applicant’s partner and the applicant.

iii.

Cash savings above £16,000 (the level generally disqualifying a person from income-related benefits) can be used to meet all or part of the financial requirement, if they have been held by the applicant’s partner or the applicant for at least 6 months prior to the application and are under their control. The cash savings can have originated from a third party as a gift, but they must not be a loan.

iv.

Promises of support from a third party cannot be counted towards the financial requirement. The applicant and their partner must have the required resources under their own control, not somebody else’s. Promises of support from a third party are vulnerable to a change in that person’s circumstances or in the applicant’s or partner’s relationship with them.

v.

The applicant has to demonstrate and evidence the income/savings required to meet the financial requirement applicable to their application. They do not need to provide information in the first instance about any income/savings which they and/or the partner may have beyond this. However, caseworkers may request further information and evidence where they have concerns about the credibility of the application or supporting evidence submitted with it.

It is complicated. Basically, you can meet the financial requirement by income from salaried employment or from self employment, or from savings. If you have no income at all, then you require 62,500 GBP in savings ( to sponsor a spouse). In some cases, for example salaried employment, you can combine the minimum salary requirement with savings, but you cannot do this if you are self employed.

The amount of savings required is worked out by a formula. Basically, it is the 16,000 you mention plus the difference between your income and the financial requirement of 18,600 multiplied by 2.5. So, if you had no income at all, the difference between your income and the 18,600 minimum income is the full 18,600. Multiply this by 2.5, equals 46,500. Then add the government's assessed minimum savings of 16,000, and that equals the 62,500. For one child to be added the minimum financial requirement goes up to 22,400, and the same calculation formula is used, giving the 72,000 saving requirement.

If the child is yours ( you are shown on the birth certificate as the father ), and you are a British citizen, then the child is probably entitled to a British passport. No need for a visa, and no need to be added into the financial calculation.

For the savings route, you only have to show financial support for your wife and any non-British children. I assume that your baby when born will be British ? If so, then it will be your wife and one child to take into account. The savings requirement will be 72,000 GBP. It needs to have been "under your control" in a recognised financial institution for at least 6 months.

If you want to go down the self employed route, then you will need a lot of evidence. many self employed sponsors will now find themselves unable to qualify as sponsors as they will be unable to show such things as audited accounts, tax returns, etc. UKBA have made it almost impossible for the "cash in hand " self employed to qualify as sponsors. If you have a limited company, then the requirements are slightly different, but just as tough. The full list of requirements for partners, sole traders and franchisers ( and all documents must be produced ) is :

In respect of self-employment in the UK as a partner, as a sole trader or in a franchise all of the following must be provided:

(a) Evidence of the amount of tax payable, paid and unpaid for the last financial year.

( b ) The latest:

(i) annual self-assessment tax return to HMRC;

(ii) Statement of Account (SA300 or SA302); and,

(iii) the same for the previous financial year if the latest return does not show the necessary level of gross income, but the average of the last 2 financial years does.

( c ) Proof of registration with HMRC as self-employed. This evidence must be either an original or a certified copy of the registration documentation issued by HMRC.

(d) Each partner's Unique Tax Reference Number (UTR) and/or the UTR of the partnership or business.

(e) Where the person holds or held a separate business bank account(s), monthly bank statements for the same 12-month period as the tax return(s).

(f) Monthly personal bank statements for the same 12-month period as the tax return(s) showing that the income from self-employment has been paid into an account in the name of the person or in the name of the person and their partner jointly.

(g) Evidence of ongoing self-employment through:

(i) evidence of payment of Class 2 National Insurance contributions (for self-employed persons); or,

(ii) current Appointment Reports from Companies House (for Directors).

(h) One of the following documents must also be submitted:

(i) The organisation's latest annual audited accounts with:

(1) the name of the accountant clearly shown; and,

(2) the accountant must be a member of an accredited accounting body;

(ii) A certificate of VAT registration and the latest VAT return confirming the VAT registration number, if turnover is in excess of £73,000;

(iii) Evidence to show appropriate planning permission or local planning authority consent is held to operate the type/class of business at the trading address (where this is a local authority requirement); or

(iv) A franchise agreement signed by both parties.

(i) The document referred to in paragraph 6(h)(iv) must be provided if the organisation is a franchise.

Edit: By the way, you cannot mix savings and self employed income to meet the financial requirement. In some categories, for instance salaried employment, you can mix income and savings to make up the full requirement, but not in this case.

Ok so if i got my parents to put £20000 in my account and leave it there for 6 months and then apply,would that be ok to apply for the settlement visa?I need 6 months bank statements so by then i will have well over the £22500 needed for the requirements and when the visa is issued i can give the money back to them as i plan on applying in December 2012?

The money has to be " gifted" to you, and under your control. That would mean that your parents would have to provide "evidence" of some sort ( a letter/declaration ?) that the money is yours to do with as you want, and it doesn't have to be repaid. The full 22,500 GBP, or more, must have been in your account for the full 6 months.

Ok thanks for reply.I have one daughter who was born in Thailand but she has a British passport and Thai passport.So you are saying i need to have 22500 pounds in savings to apply for a settlement visa for my wife?I think that is a ridiculous amount of money! So if i applied for the visa on my current salary and with say 5000 pounds savings,the visa would get refused?With the price of the visa and flights plus with the new salary requirements i wouldnt be able to afford it till 5 years time!

Sorry, but that is the amount of savings required. If you apply with a salary of 16,000 and savings of 5,000, then the visa will be refused. The ECO has no discretion. He must refuse the application.

You are not the only person caught in this financial trap. You might want to make your views known to your MP.

I make the amount of savings required to be 32.000 GBP. Th calculation is :

22,400 ( wife and one child ) - 16,000 ( your salary ) = 6,400

6,400 x 2.5 = 16,000

16,000 plus the govt requirement of 16,000 = 32,000 GBP.

You don't need a visa for your child who holds a British passport. I'm not sure if you have a Thai daughter and a British daughter ? The above calculation assumes that one of your daughters is Thai. If your daughter(s) have British passports then the amount of savings required is 22,500 GBP.

Was called on Monday, was asked to send more documents! Is this a good thing or bad thing? Anyone can advise.

It may possibly depend on what kind of application you made. It seems that ECOs can now ask for more documents in certain circumstances in applications under the new rules. Specifically regarding the new financial requirements. The published Appendix FM states :

The UK Border Agency caseworker should normally refuse an application which does not provide the evidence specified in this Appendix. However, where document(s) have been submitted, but not as specified, and the caseworker considers that, if the specified document(s) were submitted, it would result in a grant of leave, they should contact the applicant or their representative in writing or otherwise to request the document(s) be submitted within a reasonable timeframe. Examples of documents submitted not as specified include:

a) A document missing from a series, e.g. a bank statement;

b ) A document in the wrong format; or

c) A document that is a copy rather than the original.

If the applicant does not submit the document(s) as requested, the caseworker may refuse the application. Where the specified document(s) cannot be supplied (e.g. because they are not available in a particular country or have been permanently lost), the caseworker has discretion not to apply the requirement for the specified document(s) or to request alternative or additional information or documents be submitted by the applicant.

I know for sure of one application ( not ours) that has been asked to provide all of the specified evidence in a settloement visa application. Everything was produced except, apparently, the sponsor's original contract of employment. It does look like UKBA are going to insist that all of the specified documents are submitted, but it is good to see that they are not refusing applications out of hand just because a document might be missing.

I've been critical of the UKBA staff recently and have to say that they did phone the natural mother and I was worried about the 'broken ties' aspect because our niece's mother is still considered to be the daughter in law, sister in law and aunt to my wife's family. I also know, because of these links that she said during the interview that she would love to keep in contact with her daughter and hoped to get phonecalls. She also said that she accepted that the mother-daughter link was broken too, we and other family members in earlier years have been looking after her daughter for too many years for a normal link to be present.

Today we received the 2 visas and we're very happy but I think praise should be given to a common sense approach by the ECO. He or she could have just took what was said on face value and rejected the visa but they understood that the ties were broken, either because of distance or time apart and the fact that the rest of my wife's family see my niece's mother as family has no bearing on the " lost or broken his ties with his family of origin" aspects. Maybe they just understood that in our case the family of origin is still the present family and took a pragmatic approach. Either way I think that they made the right call and should be praised.

And on a positive note I would like to thank Visas Plus again for the critical and comprehensive advice way back at the beginning of the process, it was that which got me focussed and motivated. Thanks again. All other posters who gave support and general advice also kept us going. It's difficult to wait for a decision when people who applied 7 weeks later are already back in the UK with their families. But anyway a happy ending and the hard work starts now.

Steady

Good for you, Steady. And good that you give credit to the visa officer in this case. Thanks for the kind words, but I have to say that I had some doubts about the visa being issued.