stat

13 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

I also wonder if those comming over to Thailand under a ltr-wealthy pensionner , could suddenly get a tax claim to pay in Thailand even if they do not live in Thailand more then the critical 180 days ?

What makes you wonder about UNDER 180 days you are liable for tax? There is not a single law or directive. In fact the law is clear that under 180 days you are not liable for thai tax.

45 minutes ago, Sigmund said:

But what about all the latest posts showing that the LTR must be "maintained" and that requires annual visits to immigration who will ask to re check all updated documents ?

There must a yearly report. What makes you think there is a yearly check? Pls provide a link to the latest posts that a yearly check is due.

12 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Dunno, But UNJSPF is one of the reasons I did the second half of my career with the UN. Cost me 7.9% of my pensionable income, while the employer paid 15.8. Simple and gave me an "LTR qualifying" pension after 23 years of service. 

 

So I am not rich and not obsessed by money, I let other people doing the dirty thinking for me.

So your pension is a totally different ballgame then deciding to put NOW 750K taxed USD in a pension fund just to get an LTR. This is what I understood you recommended.

PS: Thinking is never dirty as Kant used to say:

Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance.

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

So what makes you a German tax resident? And then I don't get it, you couldn't put money into a retirement fund now to draw a pension in a few months. And if you could do so, you could probably qualify as a wealthy global citizen, as you said. Your weakness might be that you may be to attached to your money.

 

AFAIC, I have had an "LTR qualifying" pension without withholding tax for years. So it was a no brainer.

So what is the internal rate of return for your pension AFTER costs, which actuarial tables did you use? Did you buy a 30 year CDS option to cover the risk that the insurance company goes bankrupt?

Those pensions never make any sense to a person that is attached to his money like I am. 😉Why should I pay a company for a sub par performance result?

BTW if you move to another country they will likely tax your self created pension. But to each their own .

5 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Or have 8000 USD being paid every month by one pension fund into one bank account. 

 

It works, I did it.

Why should I pay other people 5%-10% of my money to get my money back+ pay German taxes of 26.375% on 80K a year? I do not want to generate taxable income while being a German tax resident. Money from a pension fund is the worst income tax wise in Germany.

On 5/1/2024 at 11:11 AM, JontS said:

Thanks, Philippines start looking better and better. It was my original plan to go there anyway 🤗

Same for me. Not sure if I will like it though but will see when I am moving there. No big deal to move to Thailand if I do not like the Phils.

On 5/1/2024 at 10:45 AM, Ben Zioner said:

I don't think that's right, BOI know when a tax return should be available. For instance when you apply while living in your home country, or a US citizen. In my case, where I applied after living 7 years in Thailand and as a non US citizen, they understood that I couldn't show a tax return. 

They cannot know all tax details in every country. They know maybe the US rules but they cannot be aware of all small details in the German tax law. My tax statement in Germany can show 0 passive income while I paid millions of EUR in taxes on dividends and capital gains in Germany (withheld at the bank). Even when receiving capital gains from abroad my final tax statement can show zero as it has been set off against losses in other years by the german IRS. There are myriads of implications and rules.

My point is simply that I can never be sure that they will accept my LTR application. I understand that they are helpful and willing to learn so I hope for the best. But one cannot never tell with thos Thai visa if you will get one.

Simply solution would be to just show a 1 Million and be done.

5 minutes ago, stat said:

You have to live in Europe before buying the health insurance.

On 4/19/2024 at 7:12 PM, Thailand J said:

I didn't shop around. I bought health insurance for LTR visa from AXA, the only company I called. The premium depends on the insurer's age and the deductible. In the picture below , Plan 1 with 2M maximum benefit is good enough for LTR visas. I needed at least 10 months left on the policy at the time of visa approval, so I started the application without health insurance, and bought the policy when BOI asked for it.

 

 

Prices are extremly high IMHO. I paid 69€ / 77 USD per month with unlimited coverage up to age of 65. However limited to 5 years.

On 4/10/2024 at 2:25 PM, Pib said:

Yes....this is normal.  I submitted my LTR pensioner application by just submitting my latest "monthly" statement from each of U.S. government pensions, a couple of 1099's showing annual distributions of some dividends and a small IRA annual payment along with the bank interest worksheet from my U.S. tax return 1040.  I also includes a two page memo where I explained my annual income with a chart that basically converted my monthly pensions to an annual amount and also explained how one of my pension (a Veterans' Administration) pension was totally/100% tax free and how another pension was partially tax free.

 

I wanted to see if I could get away without submitting my US 1040 tax return because income on the form is significantly less because VA pension is totally non-taxable & non-reportable on a tax form by US law...in fact, the VA does not provide any annual tax form like a 1099.    I wanted to set the stage "if" BOI asked for my tax return, which is a joint return with the wife, and fell a little below $80K that I had already explained why my tax return amounts were very significantly south of the income amounts shown on the monthly pension statements, etc.   And lo and behold the BOI did ask for 1 year worth of tax return....I uploaded that tax return and within just a few hours I could by a status change BOI was now happy I met the income requirement.  I feel the initial income data I provided had really satisfied them, HOWEVER, BUT they still wanted to my tax return as "secondary" document support and maybe also knowing if I had a tax return as a US person who is required to file an income tax return regardless of what country or planet you live on that by providing a tax return I wasn't trying to pull the income wool over BOI eyes, tap dancing regarding my income, etc.  Now come the LTR 5 year renewal review I won't have to worry that my tax return showing a little less than 80K after all the non-taxable/non reportable stuff since I will have been drawing another retirement fixed income benefit which will up my taxable income by a goodly amount.   

 

So, if you want your LTR visa approved you need to provide a tax return since BOI asked for it.    If you feel you need to explain your income because the tax return might reflect a much lower income then include a one or two page memo explaining the situation.  BOI understands a lot about income taxes, tax laws  in other countries, etc...they can figure out when an applicant is trying to make-up income vs really having the income.   And that many applicants submit  applications once they start drawing a pension and don't want to wait until they have 1 or 2 years worth of "income tax return" documentation to provide further proof of the income.  The primary proof for pension/retirement acct type income is still the monthly, quarterly, and/or annual statement you get from that pension paying entity.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your post! In may case I could not show any tax return as my income is not taxable in TH as it would be non remitted capital gains. Apparently there is a lot of discretion with the application that is why I ask the people that have obtained the visa vs BOI will usually tell me the written rules is that they need/want a tax return.

On 4/7/2024 at 6:49 AM, sabaiguy said:

A lot of interesting questions.  I think you are asking the wrong crowd.  I suggest you direct your questions to BOI.   They were responsive to my questions.   Approved for my appointment (final step) two weeks ago.  Now just have to get back to Thailand.

Thanks for your post! Answer from BOI read we will have to see if we can accept bank statements or need to see tax statement which obviously does not work in my case because German tax statements do not show cap gains/dividends as it is withheld at source by the bank etc. Maybe I will be travelling the whole year in order to not pay tax or live in Thailand on OA visa without remitting funds so again no tax statement.

2 hours ago, JontS said:

I'm pretty sure the selling of my apartment will not be stated on my tax documents as it is not taxable here in Denmark.

I will evaluate the situation once there is more clarity on this and if it's an issue I will simply start my expat life in Philippines. I'm sure they will be happy to receive my monthly spendings and tax on gains for stocks.

There is no tax on "gains for stocks" in the Phils 😉

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I'm curious about Capital gains.

 

E.g. If I bought £10,000 of shares in 2023 & on the 31/12/2023 they were worth £12,000 but I sold them today for £11,000 then I've made £1,000 Capital Gains as far as the UK is concerned but could I claim to Thailand that I've lost £1,000 as the shares were worth £12,000 on the 1/1/2024 deadline? 

 

Similar point with selling my UK property, in the UK I'm liable for gains since 6th April 2015 (& have a valuation at that date) so will pay Tax only on the gains since then, for Thailand could I get a valuation as at 31/12/2023 & claim that as the capital starting point for any gains?

 

I saw a document stating explicitly that losses will not be recognized. That did not make sense to me now and then but I fear for the worst, that they only want to tax your gains. Make sure you only transmit the loss making transactions and you should be fine.

I highly doubt (99.9999%) that you could make the claim for a higher value end of 2023 without having actually sold the UK property.

3 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Your example has confused me.  It would make sense to me if you reversed your use of LIFO and FIFO. 

 

Using FIFO your first 1M of remittances would not be assessable as those funds existed before 2024.  Using LIFO the first 100K of remittance would be assessable and the remaining 1M would not.

My bad you are correct thx 4 pointing it out.

It should read:

Using LIFO your first 1M of remittances would not be assessable as those funds existed before 2024.  Using FIFO the first 100K of remittance would be assessable and the remaining 1M would not.

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Khun Lavaron the DG of the RG who issued order P. 161/2566 just before being transferred is now elevated to permanent secretary at the finance ministry.  He has now announced that he will be getting rid of the exemption from VAT on small packages under 1,500 baht imported by post. Because it will take too long to do this using the normal democratic process of amending the customs law in parliament, he will order the Customs Dept DG to issue an order to short circuit the democratic process.  The Postal Customs department has no plans for how it will open and assess for tax an additional 15 million small packages a year, many of which are low cost items from China costing less than 100 baht.  The current system involves not delivering taxable packages but summoning recipients to post offices and often to the Postal Customs office in Laksi,, Bangkok, for clarification, even for quite common items like musical instrument accessories like reeds.  Often they challenge declarations and look up online to see if they can find a similar item selling for more than the declaration and use that value instead. 

 

It seems like this order introduced with no planning will create total chaos at post offices and cause huge backlogs.  Without doubt the cost of collecting under 7 baht in VAT on the packages under 100 baht will cost more to  collect than the tax raised, just like the 30 baht medical charge had to be scrapped because it cost more than 30 baht to collect. At the very least, they should set up a way to pay online and let the packages be delivered by the postmen as normal. They could just asses the items under 1,500 without opening them. But they have no online system and probably will want to open everything to check it is properly declared.

 

It seems like there is a patern with this government and Khun Lavaron in particlar. Rule by decree to avoid parliamentary scrutiny and public consultation. Introduce measures that require detailed planning without any planning or preparation, will likely cost more to administer than revenue collected and will cause chaos.  The same is true of the same official's plan to tax remittances. They have no plans of preparation for a far more complex issue than taxing international packages. But under the new Thaksin regime, the bureaucrats need to show they are getting things done.  No problem if the systems to implement it takes years to put in place or it turns out to be net money loser. 

 

The purpose of this post is not to generate replies about the postal tax (there is another thread for that) but to show that the new system in taxation is not introduce new taxes without thinking it through or caring what chaos it causes.  

OMG they really try hard to screw up! Thanks for this info!

PS: In Germany they did the same with small value parcels but they forced the sender to register with the Ger tax authorities and now the seller adds the VAT at the checkout when you buy the item.

On 4/27/2024 at 2:50 PM, Mike Lister said:

 

I agree that the method of accounting aspect is still open but I do not agree that the documentation of the feeder accounts is not important today, the fact the TRD accounting method is not known doesn't change that need.

 

If, for example, a person generates income from high interest savings,  equities investments and employment, and funds from each of those three areas are commingled into a single account, that person will understand and be able to prove, what amount each one contributed and when (assuming adequate documentation is retained).

 

If that person then remits X to Thailand, they are able to declare the source of those funds and provide a paper audit trail that confirms that.

 

At some point, the TRD will make it known what accounting method they utilise, in which case the documentation of the feeder accounts is essential. Or they may not. It may be that the TRD will not want that level of granularity and will be happy that in the event of an audit, the person can provide a paper audit trail and that is sufficient. Either way, the documentation relating to feeds is very important, either now or later.

One should absolutely have a paper trail at any cost agreed.

I was referring to one of our statement that the tax guide gives answers for conmingled accounts which it cannot. Your tax asseasable income could range from 0 to 100% if Lifo or Fifo are used.

 Example I have 1 M USD savings in Dec 2023, if Lifo is used I could transfer up to 1 M USD in 2024 or later without having any asseasable income. If Fifo is used and I have 100K new income in 2024 the whole 100K would be asseasble. That is why I stated the whole subject is wide open.

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue of commingled funds and the risk they carry has been on the table for many months. Para 69 says this about them:

 

69) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements.

 

70) Some tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but could be used with commingled fund accounts. The UK says that capital and gain entering a mixed or commingled account, loses its identity and that any remittance from the fund, is income first, capital second. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, the two options open to you currently are, keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into a commingled account, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

 

 

 

Your guide does not answer the questions what accounting system will be used Lifo, Fifo or percentage of funds for TRD, so the issue is completly open and no one knows. The documentation of feeds only help when you know which accounting method can/should be used. This is the main problem.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

A member asked in another thread (now unfortunately closed):

 

"please explain how the Thai tax authorities can differentiate between income and savings in an Australian bank account".

 

The answer is, they can't and they won't, it's not their role to do that, that's your job!

 

YOU have to declare on a tax return, exactly what the funds represent, savings or income. If you say savings, and only you know, you must be prepared to prove that fact with documentation, if subsequently asked. @Lacessit

The question will be what accounting system to use: Lifo, Fifo etc. If one could chose that would be great.

13 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

At least the linked document from the RD says documents to show tax paid overseas can be in English or Thai but, since this is a PR release, and not an order to RD officers, they may choose to demand certified translations to Thai, notarised by the MOFA anyway. 

 

They say ominously that tax documents certified by the foreign government are "recommended" which no doubt means obligatory in many RD offices.  Actually demanding government certified documents will save the officers a lot of trouble, given that most Western countries will not supply them.  A perfect solution for RD officers. 

Thanks! So any non ENG documents will not be accepted, bummer. To translate the german tax documents will cost easily several 1000 Euros besides the fact that some words are untranslatable . Lucky me I am banking mainly in the US 🙂

15 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I had a conversation with a bar manager about the 2024 tax rule changes. He had no idea what I was talking about, and could care less.

 

Since the manager knows hundreds of Farang residents, I was surprised that he didn't know about the rule changes.

 

He certainly had no plans to file a tax return.

 

This seems to be typical of many Farang s.

I still think the group that should be concerned are residents that have 100K above in capital income, not so much the "average" pensioner that goes bar hoping (no disrespect in any way). If the guy is a bar owner he has to file IMHO anyway or is he working for free?

15 hours ago, pj123 said:

Well this is good news for me as all the money I intend to bring to Thailand over the next few years has been earned before 1 Jan 2024.

No one knows if they will accept your documentation. Good luck if you have a mingled account.

19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Godspeed indeed - this whole income taxes on remittances scenario reminds me of the TM30 rules and their sudden over the top pedantic implementation by Immigration Police some years ago.  They started enforcing the 24 hour reporting period for TM30s and fining Expats when hotels did not report them staying and leaving, and some Expats had annual extensions denied/delayed. I recall it all blew up so much that it was front page Bangkok Post and on social media (not so big back then). There was a meeting at Journalists Club? that was broadcast online after 100s of signatures on a protest, and I recall the Head of BKK Immi Police 2 and a few of his other lackeys were there (and not enjoying it). He was asked at one stage 'why should an Expat pay 2000 Baht fine if he shows Passport etc but the hotel fails to report him'.  His arrogant smug answer was 'because that the law'.  That pretty much summed them up - ignorant arrogant little-hitlers. Anyway, it was a short period later when the whole thing was dropped and strict enforcement was 'abandoned' (but never publicly stated and the law is still on the books).  IMO the taxing of Expat's foreign sourced money is the in the same ball park, and it will be the same type of clusterphar... that is best avoided - which will inevitably just quietly get sidelined and 'go away' - which is what any silly Expat who contacts/visits a TRD office asking help to lodge a tax return about his Pension will be told to do. 

Great example. It highlights another major problem all of us could face. Maybe they do not enforce the new directive in 2024 but in 2025 or 2026 they do. No one will know before the TRD sends you a letter after the tax year has passed stating you have to pay big time, which brings me back to my point of several layers of insulation or protection from this clusterpha...

On 4/23/2024 at 12:51 PM, Lorry said:

IF you really want a TIN - a big if - you can easily get one by applying for a refund of withholding tax (the tax withheld by your Thai bank from the interest of your Thai bank account). 

You have to go to the bank first, they will issue you a document stating how much withholding tax you paid,  then you have to bring this to the RD office.

This can routinely be done for the last 3 years. 

Can you recommend an agency that does that? I am currently not in Thailand nor did I have interest from a thai bank account but I need a tax certificate from TH (TIN also needed for tax certificate). It is my understanding that I can opt to pay voluntarily a token amount and get a tax certificate. Why TH is not willing to issue a tax certificate (without having paid taxes) stating Mr. X has lived for more then 180 days in TH and is therefore a tax resident is beyond me.