Daveroc

Dave,

I wasn't going to say anything on the forum since I sent you a PM. I agree that the OTP works when you use it properly. But you glanced over the most important point of the post. Your customer service stinks! There's no other way to state it. When he was having problems and needed help, when he called he was transfered into the black hole of calcutta. As you can see from my post, I got the run around for over a month about changing my phone number and adding another account. You offered to personally walk him through it if he continued to have problems by PMing you, are you now the farang customer service representative and if we have problems we should contact you and not call customer service or use the message system? If so, why do you have a customer service department?

As i said to you in the PM, I have never denied that we do get some challenges and we endeavor to work on the improvements. With a staff of some 25000, of which 99.99% are Thai Nationals we recognise we have to put some steps in place for foreign customers who for whatever reason find the system a challenge. A key reason for being on the forum is exactly for that reason. I personally have spent time at the call centre in the evenings coaching the staff on handling foreign customers and their queries. An interesting experience and one quite cahllenging at times for the operators trying to undetrstand the many accents that come through and their issues.

We do millions of transaction a year and thankfully most go through satisfactorily. A portion that dont, end up on this forum and make good fodder for everyone. Fortunately some contributors share the more favourable experiences.

Obviously i cannot attend to every farang issue that goes wrong, however i am putting myself forward for those who have got to a point they want some extra assistance. Some I can fix, others I can't but will give it a try. If contributors would prefer Ian and i remove ourselves, we can always find other work to do.

To the OP. if you scroll down the page slightly you will see the box to enter the OTP. If you continue to have difficulties please PM and we can talk you through it.

Dave

I made two international transfers last week with them and never received any sms alert when the sum reached my account here.

A possible explanation is that the funds came into Thailand via a third bank. That bank then transferred local currency to your account which the system would not recognise as an International transfer. If you want me to check your details please PM me.

http://www.krungsri.com/en/GoogleSearch.aspx?text_value=SWIFT code

The SWIFT code is for the Bank. Each branch does not get allocated one. As long as you give the branch and account details to the sending bank it will happen. Should take maximum 48 hours but often quicker if the remitting bank has a direct relationship with Krungsri. You may be able to contact their call centre to check the balance. They will need to authentic your identity with details of passport or using ATM card details

"Zero liability" and "Zero liability Policy" are not interchangeable terms. The latter is a policy that applies according to stipulated terms and conditions. These set out when zero liability applies and when it doesn't. Visa has their terms and conditions, as this is a contract. If a cardholder does not act according to the terms and conditions of the policy then they are not fulfilling their part of the contract, so cannot expect zero liability as they have not fulfilled their part of the contract.

Fletch, I think I'm more familiar with the details and operation of VISA's zero liability policy than you, including the fact that VISA itself specifically says that policy only applies to U.S. issued bank cards... and includes specific exceptions for intentional fraud and negligence.

Keep in mind, totally apart from the VISA policy, there are U.S. banking regulations that apply nationwide that limit debit cardholder liability to $50 as long as they report the loss/theft within two business days of discovering it.

In actual practice, U.S. banks don't, I'm pretty safe to say, start evaluating negligence on the part of cardholders under the law or policy based on, in Dave's example, what time of day/night a person lost the card...or whether they lost it and don't know where it is.

I think the main consideration that comes into play in those circumstances is how promptly the cardholder reports the loss/theft from when they'd have any basis for learning of it. As a general rule, for honest people like you and me, and unless there were some clearly unusual circumstances, no U.S. bank's likely going to hassle you on that issue. There's a national policy, and they follow it or risk problems.

I'd certainly rather operate under that kind of policy that having Dave from BKK Bank quizzing me about what hour of the evening my card was stolen, or what color clothes I was wearing at the time, or what part of town I was frequenting when the card was lost... etc etc.

You have over the past couple of days questioned

why no response. It appears whatever I try to put in to clarify is fodder for you. I give up. We will post the policy in due course and leave you to carry on the crusade.

Dave

I am not looking to get into a wordsmithing exercise with you. I suspect you will hands down. From what posts I have read most of the comment has been on the policies that have been published to date and a couple of phone calls. However what is not evident is any evidence as to how each bank actually applies the policies. I have no such evidence myself but my general industry knowledge gathered over 4 decades would suggest to me that all Banks look at personal responsibilty in some shape or form when assessing claims.

I have watched over the past few days parts of my post being used in the various discussions . It is not my normal area of operation but as stated in that post we are working to get the information onto the Website. From what I have seen so far I am sure that the wording will reflect other Thai banks policy in this regard. The debate will then possible policy versus application of policy.

For the record my original post stated

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

What appears to be being missed in the discussion is the last portion “unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence, fraud or collusion.

In assessing each case we endeavor to determine where liability should lie. If a cardholder loses the card, say late at night, or lends it to someone or misplaces the card without actual being sure it was stolen then this could be deemed to be negligent. We will not provide examples of cases as this is a breach of confidentiality. however the area of personal responsiblity has to be taken into the equation. To not do so leaves any organisation wide open to signifiacant claims.

At this point I am limited as to what further I can add without opening the thread up to a further 5 pages of comment.

Yes it is possible to open USD accounts at Banks in Thailand. I attach a link to BBL outlining requirement.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Transaction%20Accounts/Foreign%20Currency%20Account/Pages/Default.aspx

If you want to withdraw funds they will be paid to you in Thai Baht. However if you are wanting to send the funds back offshore they would go in USD and not be converted to Thai Baht.

The cost of sending funds would be your own banks charge plus a local bank charge of .25% with a minium of 200 baht and maximum of 500 baht. As to which is the best method really depends on how much you intend transferring. If it is a small amount, then bring cash and shop around for the best exchange rate you can get. If a larger amount it is probably better to bring it through a system such as the Banking system for secuirty reasons.

Dave, thanks for the thoughtful and well-spoken response above... It's good that BKKB has, at least here, attempted to clarify things from a policy perspective. And the policy you recount above, if actually used by the bank, is a fairly reasonable one, IMHO...

But, there are a number of different issues raised by your post. So let me recount some of them and encourage you to further clarify and respond...

--Your opening comment referred only to debit cards... But the lost/theft liability issues for Thai bank/BKKB issued credit cards are just as pertinent. So are BKKB issued VISA logo credit cards covered by the same BKKB policy you discuss above, or if a different one, what theft/loss liability policy applies for those credit cards?

--Since you mention that BKKB's approach to VISA logo debit cards is based on VISA Intl's policy, what about loss/theft liability for Master Card logo cards (debit or credit) that may be issued by BKKB or other Thai banks?

--I was a bit surprised to see you hanging BKKB's policy on the VISA International policy for debit cards... Because, I've called and spoken to VISA Intl in the past directly, and they said in no uncertain terms that their zero fraud liability pledge for VISA logo debit cards is only applicable to U.S. bank issued cards, and they do not enforce or require that in other countries. Can you clarify on that as regards BKKB?

Just to be more clear, yes, the VISA Intl people told me their policy does apply worldwide -- for U.S. bank issued cards. So if you have some reference for VISA Intl saying their debit card liability policy applies to cards issued by banks in other countries, can you provide it?

--Similarly, as you may have seen in one of my posts above, there clearly are some other Thai banks that, at least as far as their VISA and MC credit card products are concerned, are using the "customer liable until 5 minutes after contacting the bank" policy. So that seems to be at odds with your comment about other Thai banks also using the VISA International standard. Unless you intentionally avoided including credit cards in your post comments, because your bank and the others do treat credit cards differently. Can you please clarify?

--I must say, I found myself very surprised to read your recounting of BKKB's policy on debit card theft/loss liability exactly because of the treatment received by the OP in this thread and others in the past who have posted similar experiences with BKKB and other Thai banks as well. If BKKB really has such a policy, I'm wondering why the OP and others seem to get the responses/treatment they get? Where often the local BKKB staff seem to simply dismiss them and say, "you're responsible,' even when they have a timely Thai police report and other appropriate circumstances/evidence. I guess I'm asking, why is it that branch level BKKB staff often seem not to be in tune with the policy you've described above.

--Also, on a bit of a technical point, in your post, you seem at different points to use two very different standards for BKKB determining whether a customer is liable or not. In the first wording, it would seem the burden of proof is kind of on the bank, whereas in the second wording, it seems the burden of proof is on the customer. And that second wording doesn't deal with the "lost" card scenario.

So which version is it? And does that mean if a card is simply "lost," that that bank would consider that customer negligence and hold them responsible?

...Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion.

vs

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

Not to be overly legal here, but if one were to follow your second wording above, the only way someone could be "proven to have stolen" one's card presumably would be via an arrest by the police and subsequent conviction. Is that the standard you mean to be suggesting?

--Lastly, I guess I should ask, since people like the OP and others seem to often have problems in resolving these kinds of issues with local bank branch staff, what would your recommendation be for a farang BKKB customer be in terms of how to best pursue such an issue, if they find themselves in the unfortunate situation of having charges lodged against a lost/stolen card. Whom to contact first, whom to contact at the next level if the first level is unsatisfactory, what documentation or other supporting material would be needed by the bank.

PS - I forgot to ask, is the policy you've described viewable somewhere by the bank's customers now, either somewhere on the bank's web site or as a printed document available at the head office or branches. If it is viewable, where and how? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be?

Thanks very much. Look forward to your response.

Sir, thank you for your comments. I appreciate you are a man who is keen on the detail. It has taken me some time to gather the material for my answer. I note this perceived tardiness was commented during the days I was pulling material together and not posting updates. I will answer what questions I can on this post and will call it a day.

I entered this forum to endeavor to provide help to customers that may be struggling with BBL and also to correct issues where required. Unfortunately the resources available to me do not allow extensive research and answers such as you are asking for. Given the number of topics I get to comment on, it takes time to find an appropriate source for an answer and at times have the material translated from the National language in order that I can respond. the material is not necessarily at my fingetips.I also have to ensure my answers are not leaving my employer legally exposed.

Also these extensive emails will be archived once this thread finally leaves the front page and very few people will care about it. I also have a day job to attend to.

I appreciate this will not be acceptable to you but i do need to assist a number of others that come through directly to me or PM me. While 100% effective would be great, I am happy with the levels of people we have been able to assist.

As our international base of customers continues to grow we could well put in place a more effective communications route that will become more actively involved in the social media

We accept that policy does not appear on the Website. We are looking to correct this.

The document that provided material for the answers is the Visa Asia Pacific Policy issued to members in November 2005. Probably explains the reaction to your query in the US

It covers debit and credit cards.

I cannot comment on past behaviours or experiences from posters as I have not been part of it. However if a customer feels they are getting unfair treatment at Branch level, they can make contact with the Card Centre. If that does not get the desired response then a formal letter to the Senior Management of the Bank would be a next step.

regards

Dave

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

Can a customer adjust their BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card daily spending limit to ZERO at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- and if in person, can you advise on the proper language to use when requesting this change to ZERO?

Can you set up SMS alerts at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- is there any additional fee associated with this service?

Can you confirm that the BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card, which also functions as an ATM card, is guaranteed to be "un-skimmable"?

I see most of your questions haver been answered. To tidy up the rest.

Yes you can set the limit to Zero. You need to call our call centre at 1333. English version requires you to then press 2. Having tested the system before answering I note that the automated procedure starts with an option at 20,000 baht. As there are limited requests for a Zero limit you will probably have to take the option of speaking to an operator to do it for you. Have your card with you when you make the call.

the SMS can be set up through the ATM machines and it is free.

Thanks to everyone who has put put forward their views and concerns around debit card usage in Thailand. There have been some good questions and issues raised as well as a little confusion, which we will take on board at Bangkok Bank and endeavor to provide better explanations through our communications and website.

While I cannot discuss the original posters case specifically because of customer confidentiality, I will take the opportunity to address some of the core issues and questions raised in this thread. (apologies for the length of the post in advance)

Fact. Your transaction will be covered if your card is lost/stolen, unless you are negligent, fraudulent, or found to be colluding to fraud.

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

In practical terms, this means debit card holders should treat their card as securely as cash- as 4evermaat correctly noted. At present there is no PIN based POS option for cards in Thailand, however systems such as this are continually being assessed by the Banks in Thailand.

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

While different countries have Code of Practices providing consumer protection at different levels, these are based on the conditions and maturity of financial and policing systems available in those countries.

Fact. There are ways to improve your protection as several people have noted.

-keeping lump sum cash in an account separate to your debit card spending account.

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

-checking for any transaction irregularities via internet banking or passport updates

Obviously it is important to notify your bank as soon as possible if you realise your card is lost or stolen. Depending on circumstances, you could be liable for all transactions up to that point.

Fact. Signatures are still useful in cardholder protection, as long as the process is properly carried out by cashiers.

A good question was raised earlier about the relevance of signatures. The signature essentially operates as one of many layers of cardholder protection (obviously as long as cashiers take the time to check)

Its important to again note that the responsibilty is on the cardholder to ensure their card is kept safe.

If the cardholder's debit card is stolen/lost and there is evidence of neglience , fraud or collusion, then they will be liable to repay funds. Over the years in different countries I have faced claims such as family or friends being given cards and PIN numbers to undertake specific transactions because it was convenient for the cardholder. Unfortunately more than was expected was taken from the account and the cardholder deems it the Banks fault and makes a claim. We also have to deal with claims that have selective memory on the part of the claimant as to where the card was lost and under what circumstances etc. Unfortunately this does not assist the genuine person as we work through these.

Fortunately with the millions of card transactions undertaken daily only a very small percentage become issues.

Trust this clarifies some issues.

Dave

Panor, I will PM you. Do not wish to discuss your personal details in the open forum

If you care to PM me I will see what we can do to assist.

Dave

Good evening Dave

I was hoping that you or Ian might be able to assist.

I have attempted to log on twice and do not want to risk it a third time because I would like to verify the receipt of funds from overseas before I return to Thailand. Perhaps I should use my ATM number initially? Then again, why provide a PIN number which should be changed to a Password?

Best regards

Panor

Thanks

If you care to PM me I will see what we can do to assist.

Dave

You also cannot use the 'nameless' cards in overseas ATM's (in my experience), you need a proper debit card. I have a Visa from UOB, just have to pay 300 baht for it.

Was your card a Be1st Smart Card with the imbedded chip? If so that would possibly be the reason it was not accepted. Some machines are not upgraded to accept this level of secuirty. The machine reads the black strip on the standard card. It does not matter if there is a name on it. I have had my card accepted in at least 6 countries outside Thailand

I just wanted to follow up and advise that the debit card arrived at the branch in good order. Of course my last name was cut off as they printed the first and full middle name (and I tried to point this out when ordering), i guess i cant get everything. The debit card and new pin # were in separate security envelopes. and you just go to the ATM to change the pin. You also must enroll the new debit card in SMS alerts and other features just like any new card.

BBK internet messaging system finally replied to my question posted here, 10 calendar days later, that named debit card is possible. Go figure. Thanks everyone for their responses.

One interesting thing worth mentioning is that the old debit card still works. I tested both of them at the atm and they both complete transactions ok. I double-checked internet banking and both debit cards show up on the same account. So now I have two debit cards on one account. The original one without a name, and the newer named card. It's kind of cool actually, but i wanted to confirm this is normal behavior from a technical aspect.?

Both cards are active on the account unless you specifically request cancellation. The renewal fee needs to be considered as both will incur the fee.

The Regulations as set out by the Credit Card companies are that any card retained by the machine should not be returned. The reason cards are retained range from machine fault through to fraudulent activity. i.e. someone endeavoring to test a few PIN numbers on a stolen card. A staff member cannot determine from the machine what is the reason for retaining the card at the branch level.

If a Bank returns the card, they can be held liable for any losses subsequently incurred. alweays a good option to have a backup card if travelling away from home.

I have Bangkok Bank account here, what is the exact processto transfer from my US bank to NY Bangkok Bank and then transfer to my BangkokBank account here

I have attached a link to our website outlining the process. Should you need further assistance please PM me.

Dave

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Transfering%20Funds/Transferring%20into%20Thailand/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20USA/Pages/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20USA.aspx

A comparison of three banks rate schedules as per their websites this morning for the USD TT buy is

UOB 30.64

Kaisikon Bank 30.64

Bangkok Bank 30.64.

Possibly comes down to what fees are charged and if your transfer is large enough to attracting a shaded exchange rate.

What advantage do you think having your name on it has ?

Some online merchants will not accept nameless debit cards, or the ones that do not report the name matching the name on the order for. It's been rare, but it does happen. I may be going into town. I will inquire about this at the bank. I wanted to have the thai phrase if possible to avoid the alien stare. I was hoping ian or dave would jump in.

Seems like K-bank isn't so bad. maybe I'll open up an account there sometime. Thanks for all the replies so far.

The process for obtaining a "named" card from BBL is to call at the Branch and apply. The Branch will order from the Card centre and it will be returned back to the Branch. The customer is required to call back at the branch in order to uplift and load in the 4 digit pin number of their choice. Pricing of the card is the same.

The "perk" of free fees was removed twenty years ago when a tax called fringe benefit tax was introduced. We operate on the same conditions as a regular customer. Yes i could shop around, like everyone else has the option of doing.

Where are you?

If Bkk try that Chinese exchange on the right into Suk. Soi 7. You'll get piddle poor exchange rate though.

Otherwise a bank, but doubt it.

Coins don't figure in the currency exchange market, unless you're prepared to take a big hit from somewhere shady.

Without being rude, you were a bit short-sighted to get into this position in the first place.

Maybe you try to meet somebody going back to one of those destinations shortly who may give you a few baht for the coins, but be generous.

Banks will not take them. At the end of the day, for the receiver of these coins to get value for them, they have to ship them back to the country of origination. Bulk costs for little value.

As a Banker I guess I will never win the argument on fees. Interesting that Doctors, Dentists, Accountants Lawyers Surveyors Mechanics etc all charge for their services and we pay without comment. Banking is a commercial operation that requires considerable investment in Bricks and mortar, staffing, IT frameworks, Capital requirements and with Shareholders to consider.

In support of the Thai Banking system in relation to my home country the fee structure here is very cheap. At home I would pay the equivalent of minimum 4000 baht in bank fees per year just to run a standard personal account. I can avoid most of this if I care to leave equivalent 125,000 baht in the non interest paying account.

In Thailand, I pay no account fees and am only required to have 500 baht to open the account. I pay 200 baht a year for my ATM card.

If the services I chose to use are considered expensive, I have the choice of not using them, but then have to consider the cost of finding an alternative i.e. driving to the provincial area to pay over some money.

In the case of BBL if my account remains inactive for 12 months and the balance is below 2000 baht an inoperative fee of 50 baht a month will apply.

Let the debate continue

A number of issues on this thread over the past 48 hours. As has been stated, there are rules relating to Merchants who sign on to accept Visa Cards in that they cannot be selective as to which cards they accept. If the original poster, Abduljabbar01, would like to PM me with the hotel name, our Card division will follow up.

As to why this happens can be put down to communication, lack of training or some other reason that is not immediately clear. Whatever, it is not acceptable when we become used to the concept of relying on acceptance of cards to pay accounts.

There can be not issue around Foreigner versus local as once the terminal accepts the card; the merchant gets immediate credit for the sale

As regards Debit Cards, BBl does not have a selection policy on the issuing of them. Any one who opens an account has the option of taking up a card. One thing to remember as regards the limits on spending. The limit on the card is made up of two components. A spending limit and a cash withdrawal limit. Generally these are set at 50,000 baht each for a combined daily limit of 100,000 baht. Should you consider you need to increase these, this can be done by ringing the Call centre at 1333. Provided there is money in the account the transactions should proceed. However, most ATM machines are configured to issue somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 baht per time so you would require two withdrawals to be at the limit.

BBL has two Debit Cards in the market. The Be1st Smart Card has the highest level of security with the imbedded Chip technology. However not all machines have been upgraded to accept this level of security. If you are travelling overseas or not intending to use BBL machines in Thailand you are better to have the Standard Be1st Card which is more acceptable to most machines.

Credit Cards, on most occasions, will require the lodgment of a collateral deposit equal to the amount of the limit approved on the card. The rights and wrongs of this have been debated at length on this forum in the past. However Thai Banks will implement some form of this policy. The reasons relate to the difficulty in Credit Checking customers and the transient nature of many Expatriates. There will be exceptions as already noted on the thread.

I trust this clarifies some issues.

Dave

My question is regarding the Bangkok Bank website. I'd like to know if it is possible to pay someone using a "pay code" without knowing their account name and account number.

The text message I was sent looks something like this

Nok Air Payment Info

Pay Code: 3123131

Time Limit: 1 Nov 11:59

Amount: 2011.40 THB

ROI-BKK

Yes it is possible. Have just checked on one of our ATM machines. The information regarding account number will be preloaded but not visible when you use the ATM. Select "other service" after you have entered your PIN number. The machine will walk you through the process. You will be identified by Nok Air on their Bank statement through the reference number given you