timmyp

Luckily she's got a buddy in Singapore to help her through it all.

You and many others hate that, that is why there are accountants / tax advisers and bookkeepers. Some people are really not suitable for being self-employed. Others seem to do well, it really depends on what type of person you are. Being self employed or running a business is not for everyone.

I have been an employee and I have been a business owner, both have its advantages and disadvantages.

I know I couldn't be self employed/run a business. It's not for me.

Its not important you seem to be doing ok anyway, but i seen clients who are just not suited for it and they try it anyway.. it fails. When you are self employed you have to be able to motivate yourself to start working instead of sleeping long and partying all day. If you can't do that a boss is a better option.

Nothing is perfect and it all depends on who and how you are.

They aren't all as skint as some make out.

of course not, but one suspects out of say 5 who have made ago of it, there are a 1000 who are stuck firmly in the mamma noodle brigade

and those 5 would have already made a plan as regards long term visa's in Thailand and not looking for a DN visa any way

They were known as Art Students before Cyber Space .

4 years of higher education in the Liberal arts, before the realisation hits home they were not remotely qualified to do anything in real life to earn money ?

and get all upset when they end up packing shelves ?

I have little sympathy for the folks you describe.

Some freelancers who work fully online have science/tech degrees and have completed graduate school (masters, PhD, etc.)

Considering the price of an illegal firearm in Japan vs. a firearm in Thailand, it's silly to think that he would had purchased it in Japan.

I have freelancers work for me, and if they sat around in their underpants, they would be getting run off...

I think you need to define what you mean by a "freelancer"....as one suspects you think its means, somebody sitting in their bedsit condo, working on a computer in their underpants, plenty of other variants to being a "freelancer" and some of these jobs were around way before the internet and the current DP's where just a sperm cell in their fathers nutsack

And many "freelancers" do get up in the morning at go to an office, DM haven't invented "Freelancing" its been around a long long time already

Sorry, for not defining freelancer, you're hung up on the word. Of course, DM didn't invent the "freelancing," not sure why you needed to clarify that. I was doing freelance work before it became possible and popular to do many jobs via the net.

Obviously the scene that I painted of a freelancer is someone who works at home and doesn't interact with coworkers. Yes, certainly you should fire anyone in your office working in their underpants.

I guess you're thinking freelancer = go to a company and work there for a short period of time. Much of that can be done online now, no reason to go to an office. That has been the case for over 15 years now.

Freelancer is not a new thing, as you point out, it was around before the internet. Those freelancer jobs continue to be around, but many can be done on the internet. I gave you examples before: computer programmers, architects, translators, etc. I'm sure you can think of others.

Yes, many freelancers still go to an office because their jobs require it. Most of the freelancer who I personally know have offices other than their homes, and have never meet their clients. That is not uncommon, it's where the world has gone in the last 15 years. Honestly, I thought this was so obvious that it didn't need to be explained. If you think "freelancer" means that someone has to go into an office (and hopefully dressed), then I will stop using the term "freelancer" with you.

You clearly have something against the so-called digital nomad/DN, and are hung up on putting it down as something that unqualified and poorly paid <deleted> are trying to justify as a career. Perhaps you met a couple of obnoxious self-proclaimed DNs, and now you feel it is your duty to discredit the concept. I'm sure there are people out there as you described, the young DN claiming to be a savvy entrepreneur but is nothing more than a guy on a barely sustainable income. But it's odd that you keep trying to discredit the idea that many are qualified professional who work on a freelance basis via the internet. If you don't like the term DN (and I don't really like it either), then net freelancer. If you think that's too inaccurate because it could mean that someone visits clients, then pick another term.

You seem so overwhelmed with irritation about the idea of the DM that you are caught up in only finding ways to discredit it. I agree with the existence of all the <deleted> you describe, but it's really short-sighted of you to think that's representative of people working 100% via the internet. I hope you can get over whatever experience it is you had that gave you your ideas about people whose careers are fully online.

Back to the topic of the thread: People working fully online are a reality now. They are in Thailand, and will continue to come to Thailand. Better to find a way of getting them legit that is more realistic than requiring 4 employees. Setting a relatively high bar is good in my opinion, it will keep poorly qualified people out, and that is something many people are concerned about. I am a supporter of paying taxes/dues/fees, and I agree that any visa requirements should include that. Many net freelancers (or whatever term you prefer) would be happy to pay taxes if it meant getting legit in a realistic way.

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

My good bestest friend makes more freelancing on a daily/weekly basis than when he was an engineer in Japan, but that work is inconsistent. That can become very unnerving. No work for 2 months at a time, especially with the starts and stalls of the economy (tho things have really picked up in the last couple months).

Freelancing has the added value of freedom that you don't get when you have to show up to an office, but then there are no paid vacation days. Stability is certainly a very valuable thing... Freelance or not, you're still working for someone else, whether it's the boss or the client.

While long term relationships with coworkers can suck at times, it's nice to have social interactions with people. As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

I've seen this in Singapore and Vietnam.

When you're junior, you grovel. When you're senior, you bully.

I've seen people change in the space of a morning simply through getting a minor promotion which enables them to be unpleasant to people who were previously their equals.

In Japan, it's the coworkers that do the most bullying. The boss will dump down on the underlings, but the coworkers will be the most active in the bullying, and that's why there's no escaping it.

So in Japan, it's not just a hierarchical thing.

So his wife is a Thai citizen, he has a maid, and someone else he can hire. Putting aside the investment and capitalisation required to create a company that can provide a work visa for your friend, it really doesn't seem like a good solution to say that your wife and two friends work for you when they don't (ok, I concede that calling the maid an employee sounds totally legit, but the wife and the other unnamed fourth employee "etc" are a stretch).

Whats wrong with having "a wife" working for you, I know multiple business owners in a few countries who do exactly the same..so where is the problem ?

in the Thai context, if they are drawing a salary/paying the tax and paying SS they are legit employees, and real people as are the others, so please don't suggest this is not legit or a "stretch" and the fact typically due to wife being share holder in the 49%/51% company split it makes perfect sense

Nothing is wrong with it if she's actually working for you. If she's just down there to fill out the form and some arbitrary statement was made about her duties and income, then it's just bending the rules again, which I thought was something we were trying to avoid in discussing a solution to the freelancer visa problem? And the spouse would have to be a Thai citizen, anyway, for the work visa. Not very workable for those who don't have a Thai spouse.

Same applies to the shareholder example. I agree that it makes sense for those who are married to a Thai national.

Karoshi/karoushi is a problem of bullying in Japan. Certain individuals who are the object of bullying within a company are forced to work crazy hours, then everything they do is rejected and they are forced to repeat the task. I have seen this happening in every workplace I have been to in Japan (I have worked at over 10 companies all over Japan, and freelanced at several more), and every Japanese workplace outside Japan. Bullying within a group is deeply ingrained in the culture.

Solving the problem has to address the rampant problem of bullying in the workplace, not the overtime and vacation issues. Overtime and vacation are certainly problems, but they are separate from people being driven to suicide by working to death or my their own hand.

A very similar type of situation occurs in Thailand, although it doesn't result in death. Those higher up, exert unnecessary and cruel tactics to keep employees in line. They ask for things, without any guidance as to what exactly they want, and then show dissatisfaction and make them start over.

I am guessing that this is sort of an Asian thing, but in Japan it is taken to the extreme. In Thailand the employee usually just quits, often without notice.

I am curious about how this plays out in Thailand. I have heard from Thai people that there is something similar. I wonder about how prevalent it is here, and how extreme it gets. There isn't workplace, bar, social group, organization, etc. that isn't engaged in this in Japan. It's like a requirement for every type of group structure.

More than an Asian thing, I think it's part of the human condition. It's definitely the way that the playground was run when I was in elementary school and junior high.

What seems more common in Asia that you mention: The boss having free reign to be unreasonable to the employees, and intentionally having childish temper tantrums simply to assert his position. Not that it doesn't happen in the west, but just how par-for-the-course it seems in Japan, Thailand, Korea...

First up you are talking about the 2mill capital as "down" implying upfront and suggesting that 100k down would be better.

How about 12k "down" which is all thats needed on a 2mil company.

Plus there are numerous options for legal employment with reduced obligations... some short term some long.

Boi eliminates numerous hurdles but is for thai entrepreneurs not digital nomads.

Plus there are legal companies who employ digital nomads, provide work permits and visa in exchange for a percentage of a minimum earning...I think boi sponsored... solves the issues people keep spouting.

Thai elite for the rest.

Excuses Excuses Excuses. If you really make big bucks from the net then you wouldn't care giving 3k/year to stay here. If I really made something like 100-150k year from the web, then I really wouldn't have any problem forking 3k from that money for the pleasure of staying here hassle free.

A person that makes real money wont waste his time researching how to live on 500$/month in CM doing visa runs or having a phony ed visa.

Heck come to think of it, if i even made something like 50k/year I'd still hand out 3k for that pleasure.

I dont have a thai elite visa unfortunately, but I think its very well worth the money for a person who is yougner than 50 and makes a decent amount of income

I agree with you Lukecan, that 100K per year is not too much, considering what freelancers hopefully make. The only drawbacks to the VIP pass are: 1) freelancers still aren't legit (that is, they're still working illegally with the VIP pass), and 2) the half million has to be put down all at once. It would be very appealing to my freelance friend if it were 100K per year as a lump sum, but half a million is too much all at once.

I have also heard concerns about the VIP pass potentially being wiped away with a change in government. I don't know how realistic that is, but it certainly makes the VIP pass less appealing.

and than opening a company with 4 employees (not appropriate for an individual freelancer),

Well I know an individual Freelancer (not in the DN sense) who works O&G and he has set up a Ltd company which employs his wife, a maid etc to meet employee thing, he has a WP for Thailand through the company enabling to work for other various companies in Thailand/internationally as they retain his company to provide the service...the company is basically "him" and he is doing no different from a DN...

so how is this different from a DN's for freelance as you refer to ?....

no one has upset me about people freelancing, in fact I have no issue with the concept of digital nomadary either.

What I do have a bit of problem with is people who demand to be treated differently and want "special privileges" and want changes to established company and business rules because they cant or cant be bothered to qualify under the stated rules, just because they carry a lap top under their arms and profess to be some sort "entrepreneur"

what they are asking for is not a "Special visa" its demanding asking that all the current visa/business establishment and taxation rules be changed to suit them, so let me ask you this...how many DM's do you think are in Thailand ? and what do you believe their current contribution is to the Thai economy ?

Thailand as country will not change anything unless there is some tangible direct economic benefit to the people of Thailand as a country, and from what I can see, DM bring very little direct economic benefit, by pumping large quantities of money into the economy or by employing Thai nationals, thus providing training and skills, in fact one of the primary objections by the DM's, is that they don't want to employ Thai nationals

so to ask a very open ended question....what's in it for Thailand as a country by handing out DM visa's ?...my opinion very little... convince me otherwise ?

The Japanese do not work hard nor smart. It is all smoke and mirrors. Majority are just serfs having to stay late at their desks because the manager is still at his table.

Looking busy is the trick of their trade.

I fully agree.

Karoshi/karoushi is a problem of bullying in Japan. Certain individuals who are the object of bullying within a company are forced to work crazy hours, then everything they do is rejected and they are forced to repeat the task. I have seen this happening in every workplace I have been to in Japan (I have worked at over 10 companies all over Japan, and freelanced at several more), and every Japanese workplace outside Japan. Bullying within a group is deeply ingrained in the culture.

Solving the problem has to address the rampant problem of bullying in the workplace, not the overtime and vacation issues. Overtime and vacation are certainly problems, but they are separate from people being driven to suicide by working to death or my their own hand.

Yes, "my friend", Soutpeel. Your assumption is as clever as your argumentative and condescending discourse.

2.0 million THB for capitalisation is still a mighty high bar, and not a solution, as I indicated for the other reasons in my post.

Not sure why you think these digital nomads are self-proclaimed "business men and entrepreneurs", they are freelance workers: computer programmers, architects, graphic designers, translators, etc.

I'm not sure which emoticon image to choose to express "why are you so ornery, you oughta take it down a notch", but the Prozac pill gif isn't offered.

you obviously have no concept of what Capitalisation is or your blinded to see only what you want to see...read on...I also mentioned THB 100k, but of of course this wouldn't fit your concept of "its just not fair" its too expensive bleat would it ?...

Why do I say self proclaimed ? because I have read it myself on TV

Ha, ha, Yes, I meant to say "return to Thailand," totally sorry about that.

The article didn't mention anything about the gun being returned or confiscated.

I'm sure he brought the gun with him, it's crazy expensive to purchase a handgun in Japan. No mention of people saying, "How did he manage to get the gun into Japan in the first place??"

There's a report 20 minutes ago on the paper that cannot be mentioned that he's still being held by the police in Japan

I am looking at new report from the Nippon Keizai Shinbun that came out within the last hour that says he has been arrested and is being held.

I am also looking at two other articles that say he was released after negotiations with the Thai embassy! But those are a few hours old. I would provide links, but they will be deleted.

I would venture to say the latest articles are true, that scorecard is correct. I wonder what caused the mix-up.

My post of a Japanese news article indicating that the Thai cop was release hours ago was just removed (because the link led to a Japanese site)

So, the Thai cop was released hours ago after negotiations with the Thai embassy, and is expected to return to Japan. I would love to provide a link as proof, but it will just be deleted.

Shouldn't that be "expected to return to Thailand"? I suspect return to Japan might be discouraged, at least in the short term.

Did they give his gun back?

Ha, ha, Yes, I meant to say "return to Thailand," totally sorry about that.

The article didn't mention anything about the gun being returned or confiscated.

I'm sure he brought the gun with him, it's crazy expensive to purchase a handgun in Japan. No mention of people saying, "How did he manage to get the gun into Japan in the first place??"

If the government wants to get its cut, which I believe it is entitled to, then it should set up a more realistic solution. Of course its their country and the government can have any rules they want about immigration. But if they want to solve the problem in this video (and honestly, the only real problem mentioned in that video is taxes), then I encourage them to look for more realistic visa options instead of the muck-raking about older men hitting on young girls and people not attending Thai class. They might as well have thrown in "unsightly dress" and drunken behaviour.

"your friend"

The 2.0 million doesnt sit in a bank, the Ltd company is capitalised for THB 2.0 million, typically you can set up a limited company in Thailand for in the order of THB 100k cash... all these self proclaimed "business men and entrepreneurs" running around and they don't know what capitalisation of a company is ?

Yes, "my friend", Soutpeel. Your assumption is as clever as your argumentative and condescending discourse.

2.0 million THB for capitalisation is still a mighty high bar, and not a solution, as I indicated for the other reasons in my post.

Not sure why you think these digital nomads are self-proclaimed "business men and entrepreneurs", they are freelance workers: computer programmers, architects, graphic designers, translators, etc.

I'm not sure which emoticon image to choose to express "why are you so ornery, you oughta take it down a notch", but the Prozac pill gif isn't offered.

He has been released already. The Thai embassy helped him out.

Really? Any source? This story is insane and if he doesnt do time its going to say a lot about Japanese authorities and airport security...

My post of a Japanese news article indicating that the Thai cop was release hours ago was just removed (because the link led to a Japanese site)

So, the Thai cop was released hours ago after negotiations with the Thai embassy, and is expected to return to Japan. I would love to provide a link as proof, but it will just be deleted.

Timmy,

I'm well aware of corruption and bribery at high levels concerning company misbehaviour. Lots and lots of that.

I don't really read the English press in Japan. I meant that once you're in custody or once someone comes to arrest you, there's no bribing the cops who come to arrest you. The account you give about the patrolman is something I would believe as an isolated case, but not rampant. And I don't think you can find loads of examples of people getting out of firearm or drug possession violations.

I agree that cases of bribery/corruption after someone has been booked are not rampant, that they are not part of standard operating procedure. Stories like that occasionally pop up in the news. Those are just the ones that get caught, though! On the whole, low and mid-level officials in Japan are a rule-abiding bunch.

Cases of firearms and drugs are taken care of before any arrest ever occurs.

Japanese resident and currently naturalising individual here!

His goose is cooked. He will not be released. In Japan, the conviction rate after arrest is extremely high. Like upwards of 95%. An American Toyota executive who mailed herself narcotics is probably going to go to prison. I myself have had to make alternate arrangements for a non-controlled (NON-CONTROLLED!) medicine because Japanese law has gotten stronger that I can no longer have it shipped in from abroad (it is not available in the same manner in Japan, even with a valid prescription, which I have). I have known individuals caught with one joint who have gone to prison for several years before being deported.

Japanese officials cannot be bribed, they cannot be persuaded, they do not listen, and they often ignore the requests and even demands of embassies. There is no right to a speedy trial, no right to a jury trial, and you can be held without due process for a significant amount of time. If you are non-Japanese, you have less legal recourse than a Japanese national. Now, that said, crime here is extremely low, and so is stupidity, in general, and generally there's not a lot of risk to people who aren't actually, you know, being morons.

I will also lose respect for my government if they allow him to walk away, when I have seen what they have done to stupid teenagers with one beer or one joint.

Japanese permanent resident here!

Officials in Japan can most definitely be bribed, but it's generally a higher-level thing, almost never for parking tickets. Just last week there was a cop who got busted for accepting free services in the red-light district in exchange for allowing someone to not be at fault for a traffic accident. There are loads of examples if you search for them.

I agree that in Japan, there is very little bribery on a low level. There is hardly any on-the-spot bribery like the example I just gave, it's something that is arranged ahead of time.

Caitrin, you seriously gotta stay out of the English press in Japan and read the Japanese newspapers. Lots of embezzlement, lots of bribery.

Yes...it involves registering with the government a thing called a Ltd company and investing a small amount of money, employing a few people, and getting a WP and paying income Tax and you will get a visa every year for the rest of your life if you want it

Yes: get your friend to pay to form a limited company, rent an office and pay every month to employ 4 Thai people he doesn't need to sit in it. Then he must get to work earning enough to cover that overhead plus make his own minimum salary every month otherwise he won't have a work permit. The government know about him now, so he had better be careful if he can't afford to keep doing it this way.

Or your friend could pay an agency to pretend he works for them then they will pay his own earnings back to him as salary minus their own fees of course. Completely fake and some skimmer outfit taking advantage which I hate.

Or your friend could keep his head down and make sure nobody outside his house knows he is working.

I wonder which one he will choose.

but it if spurs changes that allow digital nomads to pay taxes and stay in Thailand legitimately, then wonderful.

They can do all that now if they want...so don't see your point

They mentioned this in the video like it was possible. I'm sorry, but I don't know about this change?

Of course it wouldn't apply to me, because I would never dream of freelancing without the proper visa, but I think my friend would very much like to know.

There's a visa now that digital nomads can apply for? And that visa will require them to pay taxes?