sprq

There is no blame to be attached to anybody for not being ready for this. But the pathetic response of Thai TV needs noting: most of the day there has been little or nothing.....

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I think you're wrong. My g/f was watching the news on Thai TV in the early afternoon.

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I've been checking every hour, more or less, usually on the hour, and each time there was only one channel dealing with the disaster, if any at all, either Channel 5 or 11 or itv, and usually with just a newsreader gabbing, or some official at his desk having his moment of glory, or someone on the phone talking to an anchor, and sometimes a few pictures from Patong. That is simply not good enough in a country with relatively good technology and communications, and amply shows where Thai TV's head and money is -- in the game shows and soaps carrying on regardless.

There is no blame to be attached to anybody for not being ready for this. But the pathetic response of Thai TV needs noting: most of the day there has been little or nothing, with the usual idiotic game shows going on regardless on most channels.. Only now after 9pm is one channel able to give extensive coverage -- ITV.

How come a major province like Phuket doesn't have TV reporters and cameras permanently in situ and able to respond to breaking news? On the evidence of today, that's not the case. All day, you got far superior coverage of what's going on in Thailand on BBC World and CNN than on any Thai channel. And the 8 o'clock news still began with all the royal trivia...

BBC NEWS

Family angry at bail for 'killer'

The families of a UK couple shot dead in Thailand say it is a "travesty of natural justice" that the man accused of their murders has been granted bail.

Adam Lloyd, 25, and Vanessa Arscott, 24, from Devon, were killed on a night out near Kanchanaburi, 80 miles west of Bangkok, in September.

Thai policeman Sergeant Somchai Visetsingha was freed on £13,500 bail on Thursday.

He was released after pleading not guilty to their murders.

The two fathers of the couple, Brian Lloyd and Graham Arscott, and Vanessa's sister Alyssa, 27, visited Foreign Office minister Baroness Symons at her London office to request she intervene on their behalf with Thai authorities.

Mr Arscott said the families found bail decision "both heartbreaking and appalling".

"It makes me wonder as a father whether our children can ever have an opportunity to receive justice in such a system," he said.

Four charges

Thai prosecutors brought four charges against Somchai; premeditated murder of Lloyd; killing Arscott with intent to conceal evidence; possession of an unlicensed gun and carrying a weapon in a public place without permission.

He pleaded not guilty to all charges in the provincial court in Kanchanaburi on Thursday.

If found guilty he faces the automatic death sentence.

Mr Arscott said he has requested that the Foreign Office intervenes at the "highest level of authority in Thailand to remedy what is clearly a travesty of natural justice to our children".

He said that Thailand should consider the consequences the case may have for tourism.

"The Thai authorities need to be very mindful of the implications of such a travesty to their tourist industry as 750,000 Britons go to Thailand each year," he said.

No financial help

The families were accompanied by their MPs, Anthony Steen, Conservative MP for Totnes and Liberal Democrat Adrian Sanders, MP for Torbay, who are petitioning the government to do more.

Mr Steen said this was a case of British subjects "who have been killed and abandoned".

He said the baroness was now going to speak to Thai authorities but the family would get no financial aid to help pay for travel costs to Thailand and a lawyer.

"It really is a disgraceful situation," he said. "British subjects should feel they have protection from the government, prime minister and Foreign Office wherever they go in the world."

The families intend to travel to Thailand next month for an interim court hearing.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia...fic/4043607.stm

Published: 2004/11/25 23:52:04 GMT

© BBC MMIV

I've been here a long time but this still amazes me. How blatant can you get?

Hmmmm, I think all farangs should read this before coming to Thailand, in fact they could hand out leaflets to passengers on Thai bound Aircraft.

Many people really do believe they can do whatever they want in Thailand.

Harsh reality is different. 

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They deserve what they get......we all know the consequences of drugs in Asia...I work in courts here and see the consequences of drug use on a daily basis...

No sympathy

No pity

No appeal

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You think somebody simply possessing 1.23 ounces of heroin, 11 amphetamine pills, 14 Ecstasy pills and 1.06 ounces of marijuana should get 33 years in jail? You think somebody carrying an indeterminate amount of drugs (what drugs?) on a bus should get the death penalty? You must be out of your mind.

>I assume you're joking, right? Kino is absolutely nothing like 'a great bookstore in the West.' Jeez, it's not even like being in an average bookstore in Singapore.

Kino's main store in Singapore is, I'd guess, twenty times the size of Kino in the Emporium with twenty times the stock, and then they have three more branches there that are far, far larger than their store in Bangkok. Borders in Singapore is equally large and well stocked, as are at least another dozen bookstores there. Even Hong Kong has finally begun to develope real bookstores.

'The best bookstore in Asia'? Man, you realy don't get out much, do you?

FYI, Kino at the Times square in Tokyo is probably 2 times entire Emporium retail space.

What I dislike about Emporium: mandatory frustration when trying to park the car.

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I find it a bit difficult to pop off to Singapore or Tokyo when I want a good book, so Kinokinuya Emporium does me fine, considering what existed before it arrived. Namely, the book boutique, Asia Books, the place with the brain-dead elevator musak where they can't even keep the books upright, or keep them in their proper categories, let alone sort them sensibly under History, Biography, Politics, Geography, Science, etc. All that stuff is just Non-fiction, as far as they are concerned. They should rename it: Brainy Stuff That We Can't Understand So We Put It All Together. The staff are personally very pleasant, though, even if more suited to selling Gucci than books. In short, if you're serious about books, the only place in all Thailand to go is Kinokinuya, The Emporium. It is the sole serious English language bookshop in the land.

Somebody said this thread has nothing to do with Thailand, so how's this?

Washington puts the screws on Cuba because it's communist, it doesn't have anything the US needs, it can't fight back, and the policy gets lots of votes in Florida, a swing state. Cuba has a tightly controlled society and there's a great deal of things its citizens cannot do. However they all have good health care and good education opportunities, and there is no slavery.

Thailand is free market and democratic, with major flaws in both areas, but still, when you look around the world it's not that bad. However, only a small minority get a good education and the majority don't get good health care. Worst of all, there is a great deal of human trafficking and enforced prostitution amounting to slavery.

So all in all, Thailand treats its people worse than does Cuba. Isn't it time for the US to arrest every citizen who eats Thai rice?

Are any of you surprised, shocked, saddened, or happy when you really think about the immense population of non-thai people inhabiting LOS?

Statistics on foreigners were not very well correlated prior to the establishment of the Tourism Organization of Thailand, but apart from brief periods during Mongol and Japanese invasions, it is doubtful that there were more than around 80,000 foreigners in Thailand at any one time prior to 1960.

In 1960 I was one of those 80,000.

In 2003 I was one of 10,000.000.

I suffer from culture shock!

"80,000..... at any one time" prior to 1960 -- interesting statistic. Then you go nuts.

With the figure of 10,000,000, you're obviously referring to the number of tourists the government reported for 2003. But they were not all here at the same time, dope!

If you look at the average visitor stay period (say, 7 days) and make a guess at the number of foreign residents here all the time (say 100,000), you can estimate that there are only about 300,000 foreigners here at any one time. That's plenty enough, of course.

no more special conditions for journalists obviously ...

tks for the post - highly interesting.

sunbelt - what you make of it?

another cut of farangs in LOS in the making?

I think journalists' conditions have simply been omitted from this information. It's hardly comprehensive.

How long will this last? Any bets that ivory will be back on sale in THA hotels once the CITES conference is over?

[TAT newsletter]

THAI HOTELS ASSOCIATION STAMPS OUT SALES OF ILLEGAL IVORY

In September 2004, a month prior to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES): 13th Meeting of the Conference of the Parties (CoP) being convened in Bangkok between October 2 to 14, 2004, there is currently no ivory for sale in any Thai Hotels Association (THA) member hotel in Bangkok.

Ivory has been prized since ancient times for its lustre, texture, and durability – qualities making it particularly suitable for carving decorative items. Archaeological evidence in China shows ivory jewellery existed almost 5,000 years ago and there is documented evidence of ivory imports to Japan dating back over 1,300 years. In Victorian England, drawing rooms were filled with ivory knick-knacks, while “the ivories” became a colloquial term for dice and piano keys. Over the centuries, elephants have been killed to supply the lucrative trade in this precious commodity, often referred to as “white gold”. Illegal ivory trade is a serious global problem that is ravaging elephant populations in Africa and Asia.

Taking ivory out of Thailand is illegal. Taking it abroad is almost certainly illegal. (This is true for at least the 166 signatory countries of CITES, the international convention which prohibits international trade in ivory.)

Surveys conducted by WWF Thailand in December 2000 revealed almost 28,000 pieces of ivory valued at $3.5 million openly on sale in Bangkok. Around 40% of this was found in shops on the premises of 35 well-known hotels, all members of the Thai Hotels Association (THA). Most of this ivory was thought to have been illegally imported from Africa.

These findings were brought to the attention of the THA who immediately started working with WWF Thailand to address this issue in earnest. Actions included discussion of the issue in the monthly meetings of the THA, articles in the THA newsletter, as well as official letters (and less formal personal approaches) to the managers of individual hotels.

Through the THA-WWF Thailand collaboration, follow-up surveys by WWF in October 2003, revealed that these efforts were starting to bear fruit; only half as many hotels were found which still had ivory for sale in shops located on their premises, while the volume and value of ivory seen in hotels had decreased by as much as 80%.

Throughout 2004, THA has remained determined in their efforts. WWF showed that only 8 hotels had any ivory left on their premises in July 2004. In August 2004, this was down to one and in September 2004, a month prior to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES): 13th Meeting of the Conference of the Parties (CoP) being convened in Bangkok between October 2 to 14, 2004, there is currently no ivory for sale in any THA member hotel in Bangkok.

“This is a great success, showing what can be achieved through collaboration with determined and effective partners” says Dr. Robert Mather, Country Representative of WWF Thailand, adding that “Under the leadership of Khun Prakit Chinamourphong,

Vice President, the Thai Hotels Association has shown itself to be an organisation that not only promotes the business interests of its members, but also champions responsible behaviour and care for wildlife and nature – this is a great example for the tourism industry not only in Thailand, but throughout the world, and is something that Thai people should be rightly proud of."

The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora: Conference of the Parties, or CITES CoP13, is a major international conference of 166 nations during which a number of wildlife trade and conservation issues will be discussed.

Remaining elephant populations are severely threatened; the 30,000 – 50,000 Asian elephants alive today represent about one tenth of the numbers of African elephants. In Thailand, it is estimated that there are approximately only 2,300 elephants left in the wild population.

I think the important lesson to be taken from this is that it is prudent to keep a low profile in LOS.You can still achive your goals, just in a more stealth like manner.As a certain army unit says..be the man in grey.

Quite right too, being drunk at 3am, picking arguments, hitting people (be it your girlfriend or the local police chief!) are hardly the way to conduct yourself in a foreign land.

These were not really the type of holiday tourists that Thailand wants.

I wonder how many Thais felt it was no great loss?

I spent a month travelling around Thailand and had no trouble at all, maybe because I was courteous and polite to my hosts?

Be respectful or suffer the consequences I say.

LOS

Since all the newspaper reports say that the witnesses are too scared to talk, and they also give conflicting accounts, how come you seem to know the facts? Maybe you should make your report to the police or to the British Embassy since you know so much.

One of the main reasons that the level of English teaching is so dire, is that the education authorities wish it to remain thus. This partly explains the ludicrous constraints placed on native speaking teachers.  Another example of befuddled Thai nationalism.  This ignorance keeps the 'working classes'in their place.  The affluent families who pull all the economic strings send their children out West to become fluent English speakers, and thus secure their social and financial position.

Allowing the 'proles' to become English proficient is dangerous to the current social structure here.  Cruel, sad, and in the long run in this fast changing world, a dead-ender.

You're probably right. There's scant evidence of any real effort to improve the state education system, even though there's now a Thai prime minister who knows there's a problem. (On the other hand, does he know how deficient his own English is, I wonder?) Yep, a good proportion of the world's-worst-English-speakers problem is down to power, who holds it, and who wants to keep it. But the main part is a culture which doesn't value intelligent learning and which doesn't value getting things factually right.

To add insult to injury, the English written word is taxed at a ridiculous rate, making newspapers like Nation and B. Post (20 baht), 150 % more expensive than Thai language counterparts e.g. Matichon - 8 baht. All these seem to be conscious efforts by the govt. to deny their citizens easy access to English learning opportunities.

Agreed.

- I have also noticed that the same english books (novels, magazines, text books, etc.) here are much more expensive compare with other Asian countries, e.g. Malaysia, Singapore.

- Foreign language books are translated into Thai, personally I think this is the biggest discouragement among all the others. No wonder even the highly-educated Thais (not all, but majority) still can't be good in English, since most of the reading materials sooner or later will be translated to Thai, English is therefore needless, they have been pampered...

It is perfectly right and proper that English books should be translated into Thai. In an ideal world, all worthwhile books in all languages would be translated into all other languages, and translated faithfully. Then the fund of human knowledge and experience would be available to all literate people everywhere, assuming they had the money to buy the books.

The problem lies elsewhere: Thais don't like reading, even in Thai, and don't have a culture of reading and discussing what they have read. Someone else said it all begins with the teachers, but it's actually more profound: the general culture does not encourage intelligent learning.

The Enlightenment is still waiting for its Thai visa.

I find it astounding that so many people here don't even have a basic understanding of any English after all these years. I put it down to Thainess.

Perhaps the arrogance is your?

This is Thailand, why don't you speak Thai?

Why don't you?

I am a "farang" who teaches English in a Thai university, and I can tell you straight up that, the system of teaching in Thailand is so screwed it will take a generation or two to straighten it out if we start today. The majority of  Thai teachers at all levels cannot communicate with any proficiency, sure a lot of them will run rings round most western teachers in grammar but that's it.  The majority of teaching at the lower levels is done in Thai and it is all grammar based, the poor kids get to university and they are expected to be able to communicate in English at a university level, most have hardly ever spoken a word of English other than -

Good morning, how are you? I'm fine thanks and you?

And what they have learnt is not English but Thainglish, footbon, certran, I'm 15 year on, how (house), I’m broken heart -  etc etc.

Recently I was involved in an English camp for a group of kids – 12 – 16 years old from a small rural high school, great kids, a joy to teach and interested in learning - but for most this was the first time they had heard a native speaker and given the opportunity to speak any real English or to be corrected when they made errors.

They don’t fair much better at university – poorly constructed teaching, notes and exams full of errors, locally produced text books that are full of major errors– I could go on and fill a book on this subject. Unfortunately a lot of universities are only interested in enrolling students because of the income generated,  the students end up in classes 50 -60,  and where I teach more than this – for all the good this is, they might as well be in the main stadium with one teacher and an amplifier, this way we could “teach”  hundreds at a time.

And who cares, seems nobody is really interested, the Government is making it more and more difficult for western teachers stay in Thailand – like increasing visa fees by a factor of 4, the same with work permit fees and multi-entry fee’s , and don’t make either the visa or w/permit t easy to renew, separate offices without any co-ordination between them and if you forget to cross the “T”  or dot the “I” ,  it’s sorry,  come back next week – I know you live 700 Km away from the Bkk office but that’s not my problem.

Having said all this, do I believe that all Thai people should speak English, easy answer is NO, I don’t expect this - but if you’re going to teach English at school lets get it right –let’s not waste time, energy and good resources. Re-vamp the whole English teaching programme, start training the trainers in correct English, employ more native speakers to help train the trainers, encourage English teachers to come to Thailand by removing all the frustrations of visa procedures etc. There are some of us living here who are committed to stay in Thailand – but some days you have to ask yourself, is it all worth it.

I agree with just about everything you say, but please reassure me that you weren't trying to get your own English right and just typing at speed to get it all said quickly. Really, if you're going to criticise English standards here, which are indeed appalling, you have to do it in good English.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that someone who the PM respects told him that the country - specifically a lot of his associates stand to lose a lot of money, in the billlions of baht, if this killer is not brought to justice and quickly.  I believe that a couple of hundred thousand Brits come here each year, spending over one thousand dollars each.  A couple of dred million dollars in foreign exchange would hurt this country's currency and especially those involved in teh tourist industry. 

For whatever reason this man is caught, I am thankful for it.

Yes, moneywise it's super-important, and much more than you think. The current figure is not 200,000 but about 700,000 Brit tourists per year, making Britain by far the biggest Western market for Thai tourism. In money terms, probably only the Japanese beat them, since they now send over a million big-spending tourists annually.

The British press won't let this go, and Thaksin probably knows that too, which is all to the good.

Several posters have made comments like "people forget, news fades away" but I never expected it so soon. I've just checked out the online Nation and Bangkok Post and could not find any reference at all to this murder in today's editions.

One day later it's forgotten?? Or do the print editions contain something?

Latest Daily Telegraph, London, report -- new twist: kidnap attempt

Backpackers shot dead in Thailand

By Richard Savill and Nick Britten

(Filed: 10/09/2004)

A young British couple on a backpacking holiday in Thailand were shot dead yesterday in what witnesses said was an attempted kidnap by an off-duty policeman.

Adam Lloyd, 25, and Vanessa Arscott, 24, were murdered as they left a restaurant in the tourist resort of Kanchanaburi, on the River Kwai.

Witnesses said Mr Lloyd had been arguing. The policeman intervened, then followed the couple in a car and opened fire.

Mr Lloyd was hit twice in the back, they claimed, before Miss Arscott was run down as she fled. She was then shot three times at close range with a 9mm pistol as she lay in the road.

A warrant was issued for the arrest of Staff Sgt Somchai Wisetsingh, 39, who owns the S & S restaurant where Mr Lloyd and Miss Arscott were eating two days before their planned return to Britain.

Police said at first that the couple, from Devon, became involved in a noisy argument at the small floating restaurant and Somchai had tried to mediate before he was embroiled in the row.

But a Thai police official said later that Somchai had forced Miss Arscott into his car and shot Mr Lloyd when he attempted to rescue her.

"He forced open the door of the car and tried to hit at Somchai and grab the keys," said the official.

"Somchai pulled out his gun as Vanessa ran off down the road.

"He first shot Mark and then drove his car off after Vanessa running her down. Then he shot her with two bullets." Somchai's bloodstained Volvo 460 has been impounded at Kanchanaburi police station.

Col Vej Somboon, of Kanchanaburi police, said: "We hope to get him soon. The witnesses and evidence show that he is the man who gunned down the British tourists."

Capt Chavalit Biewkaow, the case officer, said: "This is not a good matter for Thailand. Somchai was a mild man and good officer. It is hard to believe he has done this."

Miss Arscott's parents, Graham and Joyce, and her sister Alyssa were said last night to be "distraught" after hearing the news of the killings at their home in Holne Cross, near Ashburton, on the edge of Dartmoor.

Mr Lloyd's mother, Linda, runs the Buckingham Lodge hotel, in Torquay, with her husband, Brian.

Adam's three brothers, one of whom is a policeman in London, were travelling to Torquay last night.

Thai Airforce 21 Picture

Its a beautiful plane, Airbus A319 Corporate Jet.  It belongs to the RTAF , not the PM.  What is all the fuss about ?

Thai flag on the tail fin but no RTAF markings - indicates CIVIL registration

What's the odds he takes it as a "loyalty bonus" when he leaves office?

Especially if he does as planned ..... win next election and retire in 2006

In the photo you can clearly see a civil registration number beginning HS-. All civil aircraft in Thailand have such registration numbers, HS- being Thailand's code issued by the international aviation authorities. Military aircraft have their own registration numbering systems which are entirely up to the country itself to apply, but they are always completely different from the civil system.

I nominate Thaksin for first Thaistronaut, to explore the universe, right now. That should keep him quiet for quite a while.

I second Astral. I have used Aviva for several years. Their policy also covers things you take out of the house like cameras, so it's a travel insurance for belongings too.

Now I switch to English teacher mode (British): the machine is spelled 'meter'; the distance is spelled 'metre'; the vehicle is a meter taxi, not a taxi-meter; the machine inside is the taxi-meter. Few will take any notice of this, most journalists will carry on cocking the whole terminology up, but I feel better for saying it.

Since we are on the subjects of rudeness and anal retentiveness, do they instruct English teachers (British) to always hyphenate the words taxi meter, thus creating an adjective where a noun should be?

Gibberish!

Boon Mee, that's a joke, of course, isn't it? I mean, there can't still in this day and age be Americans that stupid, can there?

But then a destructive moron is president and half the US population doesn't seem to mind, indeed, quite a lot of them love him, so I suppose you could be real, Boon Mee, god help us.

Agree with all of the above. I would take a lot more short taxi trips if the fare began at 25 baht, and the poor taxi driver would gain overall. Having experienced the rip-off artists of the 80s and early 90s, who would regularly insist on 150 baht fares for 8km rides in the rush hour or the rain, or other times if they could get away with it, I sympathise with all these guys who now have to accept a low regulated fare structure fixed ten years ago.

Now I switch to English teacher mode (British): the machine is spelled 'meter'; the distance is spelled 'metre'; the vehicle is a meter taxi, not a taxi-meter; the machine inside is the taxi-meter. Few will take any notice of this, most journalists will carry on cocking the whole terminology up, but I feel better for saying it.